The Dark Knight Where does most of TDK's critisism come from?

[The Morningstar]

I really enjoyed THE DARK KNIGHT. It's a really smart film, which mixes the suspense thriller and crime drama genres with a film noir atmosphere and Batman really well to create a film that engages on so many levels. I love movies that are based on ideas, and THE DARK KNIGHT really shines because of it. It's one of my favorite films of all time, and it is the best superhero film thus far.

That's the thing... TDK isn't smart or subtle. In fact it's pretty ****ing stupid. It just tricks people into thinking it's smart. There is so much stupid, unnatural, spoon feeding dialogue the characters don't sound like real human beings, they sound like monologue machines for the film makers ideas and themes. The police proceedural stuff is stupid, especially the use of RICO and that ******ed bullet scanning thing. The Joker, whilst entertaining and brilliant played by Ledger... is just a walking, talking plot device.

The film isn't as clever or as subtle as it thinks it is.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yes it does. There are no valid reasons to criticize it. "I don't like it" is the only plausible explanation.



Yes it is. It's a perfect superhero film, that completely eclipses its genre. The Dark Knight is to Superhero Film what Blade Runner is to Sci-Fi.

No valid reason to criticise it? You're having a laugh ain't ya? You really are some kind of raging TDK fanboy, It's pretty laughable, I bet you watch every night before bed.

Anyway...

The romance sub plot is poorly done, Rachel Dawes is an uninteresting character who is there basically to serve the plot.

Fight scenes. Utter ****e. Who denies this? Crap fight scenes in a film about Batman is unforgivable.

Editing. All over the place. Especially in the first appearance of Batman in the car park and the chase scene.

Terrible dialogue. The characters don't sound like real human beings. Real human beings do not speak like that. They don't go on long monologues explaining the movies themes and their feelings etc. It's called spoon feeding, talking down to the audience like idiots. The golden rule of movies is SHOW, DON'T TELL. TDK breaks this rule every chance it gets to try and re-enforce how clever it is with it's underlying themes. But it's not clever, or subtle. It's like using a blunt instrument for surgery.

Worst case of this is Gordon's monologue at the end. I mean, he's basically breaking the fourth wall and explaining to us idiots in the audience what just happened in the last 2 and a half hours. As if it wasn't completely on the nose already.

Or what about this "This people, are ready to show you, they still believe in GOOOOOOOOOOOD!" Oh **** off seriously? Did he really need to say that? Joker realized that, you could tell by the look on his face. The audience realized it. Everyone realized it. But we still get talked down to like a bunch of ******s because the film makers think their plot and themes are too complex to understand.

Batman gets completely overshadowed in his own film. Joker, Harvey Dent and Gordon are all more interesting to watch than either Bruce Wayne or Batman. Again, unforgivable in a movie about Batman.

 

[Godzilla2014]

That's the thing... TDK isn't smart or subtle. In fact it's pretty ****ing stupid. It just tricks people into thinking it's smart. There is so much stupid, unnatural, spoon feeding dialogue the characters don't sound like real human beings, they sound like monologue machines for the film makers ideas and themes. The police proceedural stuff is stupid, especially the use of RICO and that ******ed bullet scanning thing. The Joker, whilst entertaining and brilliant played by Ledger... is just a walking, talking plot device.

The film isn't as clever or as subtle as it thinks it is.

I'm sorry you didn't like it. I never said it was subtle. The film is an intelligent film, raising questions like "Does achieving something justify compromising what you stand for in the process?" "Should one appease the demands of the enemy or stand against them, in spite of whatever bloodshed that results?" "Is power destined to be abused?" These and so many other things. As for the dialogue, I didn't mind it, and I found it interesting, compelling, and entertaining. I would much rather that characters discuss the ideas and themes of the film, rather than talking about ******** that makes no sense, such as in The Matrix films.

 

[The Morningstar]

Well see I can't stand that. I hate characters talking about the themes of a film like they did in TDK. It's like they are not real people, they know they are in a movie. And it's also kinding insulting. I don't need these things rammed down my throat, i'm not an idiot.

I just think people give it a free pass because it does ask interesting questions. I don't give it a free pass because I don't like how these questions were asked. It's spoon feeding, it's telling and not showing.

Look at a film like Blade Runner for instance. You don't see the characters going on long monologues about how if Replicants can feel, what makes them different from humans. Or the question about the Replicants being more human than real humans. It's implied through natural sounding dialogue that alludes to the characters feelings, not spelling them out with crayons, it lets the audience make it's own mind up. Same thing about the whole "Is Deckard really a Replicant" thing. It's very subtle and intelligently done. It's ambiguous, it makes the audience figure things out for themselves.

TDK just holds the audiences hand all the way through.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Well see I can't stand that. I hate characters talking about the themes of a film like they did in TDK. It's like they are not real people, they know they are in a movie. And it's also kinding insulting. I don't need these things rammed down my throat, i'm not an idiot.

I just think people give it a free pass because it does ask interesting questions. I don't give it a free pass because I don't like how these questions were asked. It's spoon feeding, it's telling and not showing.

Look at a film like Blade Runner for instance. You don't see the characters going on long monologues about how if Replicants can feel, what makes them different from humans. Or the question about the Replicants being more human than real humans. It's implied through natural sounding dialogue that alludes to the characters feelings, not spelling them out with crayons, it lets the audience make it's own mind up. Same thing about the whole "Is Deckard really a Replicant" thing. It's very subtle and intelligently done. It's ambiguous, it makes the audience figure things out for themselves.

TDK just holds the audiences hand all the way through.

I can understand your point, though, again, I didn't mind it.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yea it's cool. Not trying to change anyones minds here.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

I think I see where you are coming from Morningstar, even if I disagree. Would you mind giving specific examples of scenes where you think the audience is being spoon fed?

 

[The Morningstar]

Hmm off the top of my head the scene with Harvey and the Joker in the hospital. How many times has the guy gotta mention "chaos" there?

Gordon's ending monologue. Basically spelling out the entire movies message. Was literally like he was breaking the fourth wall there. I did like how the scene was intercut with Bruce being chased by the police though.

Harvey Dent's speech at the dinner table.

I appreciate the film was trying to get some interesting themes across and asking interesting questions. But for me, it was just too on the nose and the dialogue of the characters a lot of the time sounded unnatural. Like the characters were not real people but mouth pieces.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

I think I get what you are saying. We view the film from different perspectives. I loved how in the movie you had to pay attention really hard to figure out when Joker was telling the truth or lying. How he was basically playing everyone against each other to acheive his "chaos".

My problem with TDK is the fact that Joker seemingly predicts what everyone else is going to do, and outsmarts both Gordon and Batman at every turn. Like Gordon's line saying, "he wanted to be locked up in MCU." I guess Joker is just so crazy that he's smarter than everyone else? Maybe.

As far as Dent's speech as the dinner goes...I thought that was an important scene that established Dent's character and goals. I liked the comparison of the character of Batman to Caesar in Rome. The line about Batman not wanting to do this forever was spot on to how Bruce felt at the time, and I think Nolan is going to use that to transition into TDKR where Batman finally realizes that there is no end in sight. He is Batman.

I liked Gordon's ending monologue...but it does feel like he was breaking the fourth wall, as in we are his son. I feel like Nolan didn't know exactly how to end the movie, but wanted Gordon to say The Dark Knight, so they wrote the monologue showing Batman running from the cops...and I guess he wanted to set it up for how Batman is still running in TDKR.

 

[The Morningstar]

Yea, the Joker's plots worked out so perfectly for him it's like he was actually telepathic or could predict the future or something.

I do like the ambiguity of the Joker, whether he was telling the truth or not etc.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

Yeah. Pretty much my only gripe with TDK, how the Joker had everything figured out before it happened. Other than that, I pretty much loved it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Yea, the Joker's plots worked out so perfectly for him it's like he was actually telepathic or could predict the future or something.

I just got the idea that Joker had plans for every foreseeable outcome. For example, he thought he might get captured, so he planned a way to break out, and since Lau was in jail as well, he could get him too. If he didn't get captured, then he gets to continue his reign of terror. If Harvey Dent were killed and/or Rachel survived, he could still deal a massive blow to the city. Hell, even if Batman kills him, then he succeeds in corrupting Batman, and Batman allows him to live, he can break out later. There's not many outcomes that Joker doesn't have planned for.

I do like the ambiguity of the Joker, whether he was telling the truth or not etc.

I loved that, too. I was so glad, especially in retrospect, they didn't give him a concrete origin. We know enough about the Joker, his motives, and his actions to not be confused or make him a plot device, but not so much we can predict the ending before we get to it. We do know why he does the things he does, to cause anarchy and chaos, but we don't why he wants to do that. That is hard to make a compelling character out of, and THE DARK KNIGHT succeeds this with flying colors.

 

[Gotham Knight]

Hmm off the top of my head the scene with Harvey and the Joker in the hospital. How many times has the guy gotta mention "chaos" there?

Gordon's ending monologue. Basically spelling out the entire movies message. Was literally like he was breaking the fourth wall there. I did like how the scene was intercut with Bruce being chased by the police though.

Harvey Dent's speech at the dinner table.

I appreciate the film was trying to get some interesting themes across and asking interesting questions. But for me, it was just too on the nose and the dialogue of the characters a lot of the time sounded unnatural. Like the characters were not real people but mouth pieces.

You certainly make some great points. I noticed the same things too, but I was never really bothered by it.

 

[The Morningstar]

Thanks, but yea it's cool. I know not everyone is bothered by it. But spoon feeding dialogue like that irks me, it takes me out of the movie.

If it's like film noir with actual narration by the main character, like say, Memento or Apocalypse Now I don't mind at all. It's just when it's dialogue between two characters that annoys me.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

I just got the idea that Joker had plans for every foreseeable outcome. For example, he thought he might get captured, so he planned a way to break out, and since Lau was in jail as well, he could get him too. If he didn't get captured, then he gets to continue his reign of terror. If Harvey Dent were killed and/or Rachel survived, he could still deal a massive blow to the city. Hell, even if Batman kills him, then he succeeds in corrupting Batman, and Batman allows him to live, he can break out later. There's not many outcomes that Joker doesn't have planned for.

I guess what you say makes sense...except it felt like Joker was inside Batman's and Gordon's heads. Like he knew what they were going to do before they did it. Case in point. The interrogation scene. He purposefully lies to Batman about Rachel and Harvey's locations. He knows Batman is going to go for Rachel, but wants him to save Harvey. I suppose its not that big a leap for Joker to anticipate that, but...I guess Joker is just an insane genious?

 

[Godzilla2014]

Thanks, but yea it's cool. I know not everyone is bothered by it. But spoon feeding dialogue like that irks me, it takes me out of the movie.

I can see your point. I think I might be fine with the (admittedly unsubtle) dialogue because of the movie's fast pace. I think that in it's glued-to-the-edge-your-seat thrills and action sequences and fast-moving story and plot, its subtext could have gotten lost in the adrenaline rush.

If it's like film noir with actual narration by the main character, like say, Memento or Apocalypse Now I don't mind at all. It's just when it's dialogue between two characters that annoys me.

I don't mind that either.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I guess what you say makes sense...except it felt like Joker was inside Batman's and Gordon's heads. Like he knew what they were going to do before they did it. Case in point. The interrogation scene. He purposefully lies to Batman about Rachel and Harvey's locations. He knows Batman is going to go for Rachel, but wants him to save Harvey. I suppose its not that big a leap for Joker to anticipate that, but...I guess Joker is just an insane genious?

Personally, I thought he switched the addresses so they would rescue the other person in danger than they intended, regardless of whether it was Harvey or Rachel. As far as if Joker did plan for Batman to try to rescue Rachel, remember he did see Batman throw himself out of a window in a penthouse to save her life.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

Yeah, but wouldn't Batman have done that to save anyone? To me that act doesn't necessarily imply that Rachel and Batman have a history.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, but wouldn't Batman have done that to save anyone? To me that act doesn't necessarily imply that Rachel and Batman have a history.

Joker: "You know for a while there I thought you really were Dent. The way you threw yourself after her"

It wasn't the fact that Batman saved her that made Joker realize Rachel was someone personal to Batman.

The Joker has always been great at getting under people's skin and getting inside their heads to mess with them and rile them up.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

So its just a natural talent of his? Ok, I guess I buy that. I loved Heath's performance. He did get under Dent's skin. That was a major plot point in the movie. "I'm an agent of chaos."

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

By the way, I love your signature The Joker.

 

[The Joker]

Thank you. It's one of my favorite Joker quotes. That ambiguity of the Joker was incorporated nicely into TDK with him being a total mystery and telling two different stories about how he got his cut smile.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

That was nicely done. I don't think they could have written a past for Joker that would have lived up to how sinister and insane he was portrayed in TDK. I usually like to know why people are the way they are, but the mystery works better with the Joker.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Yeah, but wouldn't Batman have done that to save anyone? To me that act doesn't necessarily imply that Rachel and Batman have a history.

I think The Joker (the SHH! member, not the psycho himself) sums up very well:

Joker: "You know for a while there I thought you really were Dent. The way you threw yourself after her"

It wasn't the fact that Batman saved her that made Joker realize Rachel was someone personal to Batman.

The Joker has always been great at getting under people's skin and getting inside their heads to mess with them and rile them up.

Indeed. Watching the film, I realized that Joker excels at manipulating people by using their anger against them. There are three examples of this that come to mind:

• Batman, in the interrogation room scene: Batman tries to scare him by beating him up. Joker responds by laughing, which angers Batman further. Then Joker drops hints about Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent possibly being in danger. Batman's rage goes on full display here. He just kicks the crap out of Joker, and Joker just laughs.
• Harvey Dent, at the hospital: Joker walks up to Harvey's hospital bed. He is (understandably) pissed, as Joker just killed Rachel. Joker tells Harvey that he can't be held morally or legally responsible for his crimes because he is merely an agent of chaos, a dog chasing cars. That Rachel's death is nothing personal. Then Harvey really is convinced when Joker says, "Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!" Joker then gives him the Smith & Wesson Model 64, a gesture reminiscent of Eve handing Adam the apple, that he will use for the rest of the film, which I think is symbolic of his adoption of Joker's methods. Harvey then points it at Joker's head, and Joker's life is only spared by the random chance of a coin toss. Joker redirects Harvey's anger toward the very same corrupt cops who executed the plan.
• Detective Stephenson, interrogation room: He riles him up so that when Stephenson tries to attack him, he becomes Joker's hostage.

So its just a natural talent of his? Ok, I guess I buy that. I loved Heath's performance. He did get under Dent's skin. That was a major plot point in the movie. "I'm an agent of chaos."

Indeed it is. Heath's Joker is one of the most developed enigmatic villains I have seen on screen.

By the way, I love your signature The Joker.

Me, too.

Thank you. It's one of my favorite Joker quotes. That ambiguity of the Joker was incorporated nicely into TDK with him being a total mystery and telling two different stories about how he got his cut smile.

I loved that. I loved how we can't really rely on almost anything he said without other evidence. What other film villain would inspire debates about if he swapped the detonators for bombs on ferries?

That was nicely done. I don't think they could have written a past for Joker that would have lived up to how sinister and insane he was portrayed in TDK. I usually like to know why people are the way they are, but the mystery works better with the Joker.

I don't think is legally insane in The Dark Knight, but I agree with you.

 

[WeasleyIsRKing]

To quote Alfred, "Some people just want to watch the world burn." he sums up the Joker well, trying to get Bruce to understand what he is up against. If thats not legally insane, I don't know what is. Unless I misunderstood your last sentence Godzilla.