The Dark Knight Rises Theme of the Third movie

[Melkay]

MR. FREEZE:

I, like many people, think that Redemption will be one of the main themes for the next movie. And the best villain in all the Bat-verse to show that is Mr. Freeze.

What makes Freeze such a great character is that he is an almost perfect reflection of Batman in his new state. Freeze lost his last loved one and he's now breaking rules just to bring her back (something Bruce would love to have the opportunity to do). He was once a good soul but his life was thwarted by tragedy, and he has decided to go outside the law to get harmony back in his life. He is trying to cheat death, and the death theme would be good to explore in Bruce's life.
His parents died (we still need some good Wayne's grave scene), his love died, the man who embodied hope in his city (Harvey) also died.


Mr. Freeze is driven by anger and hate, and has blocked his emotions from getting to his only goal, to save his life. He's doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He's very much like Batman, only he is willing to kill and his goal is far more personal. And they're both outcasts, because they chose to do things outside the law. But Freeze doesn't see his wife dead, and thus he's more desperate than Bruce because is harder for him to make peace with his tragedy.

That's precisely why I think Freeze can enter in a bigger theme where Nolan explores the ambiguity present in some criminals... the ones who do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Because Freeze, unlike the Joker, is not exactly a villain... (Catwoman is not just a thief, and Nygma is not really a ‘good’ agent… they all fit very well in this theme).

Bruce seeks to stop Freeze and redeem him... redemption being the thing he wants the most, and the thing he could never achieve with Harvey after he became a murderer. In the comics, Batman always tried to redeem Two-Face. Now that he can't, Freeze can be the one to be redeemed.

Because the best thing about Freeze is that he CAN be redeemed. Bruce can come to see in Freeze the redeeming opportunity he never had with Harvey. We need to see a character that can turn bad and still show a ray of light, a touch of redemption at least. Freeze is that character.


Of course, the sci-fi 'cooling' problem makes it complicated to work in this new universe where plausibility rules. Still, “complicated” is not “impossible”. There are many good ideas to make a completely plausible Mr. Freeze in the Freeze thread, especially in the comments of HereToComment27. I urge everybody to check them out.

His condition, being unable to survive in real life temperatures, must be there... ideally. He needs that to reinforce the notion of him not being able to return to normal life. To reinforce the overall theme of the movie... being an outcast, like Batman, or Catwoman to a lesser extent.
The Joker could put makeup on his face whenever he wanted. Dent could have been treated with skin injertions and so... but he rejected them.
Freeze shouldn’t be able to do this, because he's not a bad soul. And yet, his condition makes him unable to go back to normal life. His character needs that.
If the Nolan's can't find a good way to put that in their universe, it's alright. But IDEALLY, Freeze needs the condition.
There are good military exoskeletons that are strength enhancers and can be used as a cooling suit of sorts. Plus, the ‘mecha’ technology of Iron Man is almost ready to be used in real life, as I read in Yahoo News.
That part of his depiction should be kept integrally.

He should also freeze people, and that doesn't have to be a gratuitous gimmick. It can be very practical. He needs frozen bodies (or frozen body parts) to experiment on the organs and use them to find a cure for his wife's condition. Freeze shouldn’t have any kind of M.O. or a fetish or a routine… He's just very focused and determined, even cold-hearted (except about his wife).

I'm also completely against Freeze wanting revenge. Mr. Freeze, when done correctly, is not about revenge. It’s about slowly losing humanity despite his very human motives. He behaves cold and sort-of-emotionless. He's just ready to do whatever it takes to cure his wife. Whatever it takes. And that is very similar to Batman, who’s slowly losing his identity and his emotional world to do whatever it takes to fight crime.

So if Victor freezes people, it’s because it’s good for his goal of saving the life of his wife.

He must not lose Nora, or at least for most of the movie. Norah is alive and frozen (or in coma) and she may die later, but her death must not be his motivation.

Not unlike Dent in TDK, Freeze needs a lot of screen time to show his story arc, only this time his arc is even bigger than Dent’s. He goes through good and vulnerable guy - desperate good guy who tries to save a life - tragic event - desperate guy who starts doing horrible things to save a loved one - he gets more and more focused on doing that and starts losing his humanity - at some point circumstances make him detest what he has done and helps Batman in some way - he gets redemption, in jail... or in exile... but he's happy because either his wife is now cured or she has a legitimate chance of getting a cure.

Freeze needs Nora alive to justify his crimes and to commit them in the first place. He needs to steal and kill his way to save her. That's a powerful idea... he's committing crimes... even killing people... to save the life of the one he loves... instead of learning how to let her go.
That's the most powerful and sad statement Freeze can make to the audience. And no matter how difficult it is to present him in a plausible way, that statement is worthy of the Nolan films. Nolan is very comfortable with the “dead wife” motivations. From Memento to The Prestige, from his Ra’s al Ghul to Two-Face, he keeps returning to the dead loved one motivation. And he has excelled himself in it. Nolan is the best in that theme. And he must explore redemption with that character…

And this is the real deal-breaker for me.
Can Freeze get Redemption after killing people? Can he be pardoned of his crimes?

That's exactly the point. Taunting with moral relativity. How do you deal with a guy that kills innocent people but later has a change of heart, helps an entire city (we're talking about millions of people) and then willingly goes to prison for his crimes? How do you deal with the idea of someone who takes lives... not because he's seeking revenge, but to save a good soul's life? To save a loved one's life?

Those who have seen Lost and it’s entire Second Season will remember Michael. How do you deal with Michael... a guy who killed two women (one not so innocent, intentionally, and one very innocent, unintentionally) to save the life of his son?

How do you deal with those things?

Either way, the way you judge Freeze talks more about you than about the character. And that kind of complex moral depth was absent even in TDK. Good and evil were almost clear there... but what happens when it's not anymore? How is Batman supposed to deal with a good woman who's a criminal, a bad guy who's in the side of the Law, and a good man who kills people to save the life of his innocent wife?

How is Batman supposed to deal with the fact that he is an outcast, pursued by the very same society he's been defending for so long?

The redemption theme in Freeze must be tackled... whether the audience thinks he achieved it, or not.


There is ONLY one casting possibility for Freeze, though. That is Ben Kingsley. Not Patrick Steward, not Ed Harris and certainly not Vin Diesel. Only Ben Kingsley. See “House Of Sand And Fog”, period. You’ll thank me for it.


If Victor Fries has ties to Wayne Enterprises (maybe a former member of the Applied Science division) then that would be a great way to give screen time to Lucius Fox. He and Fries may have some kind of bond in the past that should give Fox some pretty decent role to play.

 

[Melkay]

HOW MANY VILLAINS? :

These three characters, I think, would make the perfect group of villains to complement the new situation of Batman... and they would help explore a familiar but still not fully tackled theme: the ambiguity of Right and Wrong.
Because when it comes to crimes that are not fatal to anyone, done for a good purpose and by a loved one (Selina, who Bruce falls in love for)…
Or crimes that are fatal but committed to save an innocent person’s life (Victor Fries trying to save his wife Nora, who's frozen)
Or crimes that are committed for egotistical purposes and from the side that should be the right one… the side of Justice (Nygma starting as a federal agent doing whatever he can to catch and unmask Batman)…

… there are no better Batman villains as those three. Not Bane, not Talia, not Ivy and not….. uh, Ratman (yeah, someone mentioned him). So those are my three picks.

Catwoman will lure him to being apart from society.
Riddler will chase him from inside the Feds and the Police and will drive him away from society.
Mr. Freeze will help him see he can find redemption.

I don't think there should be a main villain, but... then again, I don't think of Catwoman as a villain, just a VERY conflictive woman, who's essentially good but drastically different to Bruce. She doesn't come from a rich background, and she also believes that society needs balancing. Bruce thinks of himself as such a balance because he’s fighting crime...
… but Selina thinks of herself as the balance because she keeps stealing from Gotham’s rich elite, and she sees them as the main problem of Gotham's criminality.

So she keeps stealing from the rich, believing (just like Bruce) she is setting the right kind of example: "Don't obey laws that don't do any good for you. Distrust politicians and distrust rich people. Break the laws, rob those rich guys and try to fix your life that way.... not by being a lamb."
Right example? Maybe not, but her life experiences made her believes that is the right way.

The Riddler... well, he is a bad guy from the beginning. He’s the wild card obsessed with bringing down the Batman. He just happens to be within the Law first, and later... he's not. But a narcissistic bad guy all the time. Maybe he's the main villain.

And then we get Victor Fries. Freeze needs more screen time than Nygma, so maybe he can be promoted by the studio as the main villain... just to conceal the fact that he indeed gets redemption at some point in the movie. But the real villain and the real thread in the climax must be the Riddler.
Catwoman MUST be heavily promoted too, but just as an appealing character... not really because she's the villain.

Three new villains is just fine for me. A post-Joker attack Gotham needs to be slowly moving towards being the freak-populated city it is in the comics. Three villains is just right.


OPTIONAL VILLAIN:

We’ve always had that one not so main villain who represents the Gotham’s mob… that could be the Penguin. The possibility for the character has already been established in the Nolan-verse… in Gotham Times, in the TDK virals, there is a brief mention of a club named The Iceberg Lounge. Who’s the owner? British businessman Oswald Cobblepot.

He could be a good character. Being an arms dealer, he can be as much of a technology-freak as Batman is. Much of Batman's advantage is that he has always a superior tech... but that may not be the case with Cobblepot.

And it is important that he is regarded as an upstanding citizen in Gotham... a criminal that's blessed by society to contrast Batman's situation as an outcast from society. Cobblepot is a member of the rich and respected elite. Without the outdated monocle, of course… just glasses.

Falcone is insane and Maroni took his place, but most of the main gang members were killed in TDK (Gambol, Maroni, the Chechen). So there's a power void in Gotham's mob, and Cobblepot could step in.

I can imagine a mob members meeting in a storage facility during a rainy day... thugs outside check that no one brings guns to the meeting, and Cobblepot doesn't have any... he just enters with his umbrella

Next thing you know, that penguin-dressed guy doesn't like the deal he's being offered and every mob boss at the meeting is killed by machine-gun fire coming out of that umbrella.

That'd be cool. And we also have a main female character who likes to rob rich people. But she may fin that stealing from THIS rich elitist guy is not easy at all. And when the guy is controlling part of Gotham’s mob, then stealing from him comes with a price.

 

[Melkay]

REGARDING PART OF THE PLOT:

I had a very strange (and potentially ridiculous) idea. This is not the first time I post it, but read it again please, and tell me what you think about it…



I'm all for the idea of Riddler being an egocentric federal agent who gets obsessed with catching the Batman. He makes a fake villain alter ego called the Riddler and leave clues in crime scenes to lure Batman into his traps. His traps get bigger and more dangerous, he gets caught an expulsed from the FBI. So, then he goes after the thing his prizes the most.

What is the thing that Edward Nygma prizes most in the world? Answers. Knowledge. He wants to know every answer to every valuable question out. And as far as valuable go, knowing who Batman is ranks really high. But apart from that, knowledge is the thing that Nygma craves the most. So, what would be one thing from TDK that the Riddler would ambition the most?

The bat-sonar-computer. The thing that would help him locate (and listen to) every gothamite with a cell phone out there, just turning it on.

But Fox destroyed the computer…. Well, if one person besides Fox can fix it again, that should be the Riddler.

And if there’s someone who can get him inside Wayne Enterprises, is a former employee. A former employee that broke inside the building and found the room with the computer that was kept secret. A former employee like Victor Fries.

And maybe Freeze needs the Riddler to crack into the hospitals database and find an organ donor who matches his wife’s blood-type. That donor turns out to be a very elusive cat-burglar. And Freeze needs Riddler to fix the bat-sonar in order to find…. Selina Kyle, a.k.a. Catwoman.

And the least Batman wants is Freeze finding Selina. Or the Riddler getting his hands on that sonar.

I'm not sure who should be the main villain of the three, Freeze, Riddler or Catwoman.

That decision (who should stand more) should be taken AFTER you flesh out the characters as much as you can.

For now, for me it should be Catwoman first, then Freeze and Riddler in equal parts. Her character and her relationship with Bruce can have so many subtleties and psychological explorations that she's number one for me.

She ranks higher in the rogue's gallery in the comics, too.


I know, it is very raw way of combining the three, but maybe when you use the Bat-sonar-computer, the idea doesn’t sound too far-fetched to others.



By the way, this compilation of ideas has been divided in six (6) very long posts. Excuse me for my lack of synthesis. Read what you want, and those who read it completely, tell me what you thought of it. Thank you.

 

[Gianakin_]

Your ideas are well thought and sound very cinematic. I'd welcome that conclusion to the trilogy.

 

[TheTrickster]

MR. FREEZE:

I, like many people, think that Redemption will be one of the main themes for the next movie. And the best villain in all the Bat-verse to show that is Mr. Freeze.

What makes Freeze such a great character is that he is an almost perfect reflection of Batman in his new state. Freeze lost his last loved one and he's now breaking rules just to bring her back (something Bruce would love to have the opportunity to do). He was once a good soul but his life was thwarted by tragedy, and he has decided to go outside the law to get harmony back in his life. He is trying to cheat death, and the death theme would be good to explore in Bruce's life.
His parents died (we still need some good Wayne's grave scene), his love died, the man who embodied hope in his city (Harvey) also died.


Mr. Freeze is driven by anger and hate, and has blocked his emotions from getting to his only goal, to save his life. He's doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He's very much like Batman, only he is willing to kill and his goal is far more personal. And they're both outcasts, because they chose to do things outside the law. But Freeze doesn't see his wife dead, and thus he's more desperate than Bruce because is harder for him to make peace with his tragedy.

That's precisely why I think Freeze can enter in a bigger theme where Nolan explores the ambiguity present in some criminals... the ones who do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Because Freeze, unlike the Joker, is not exactly a villain... (Catwoman is not just a thief, and Nygma is not really a ‘good’ agent… they all fit very well in this theme).

Bruce seeks to stop Freeze and redeem him... redemption being the thing he wants the most, and the thing he could never achieve with Harvey after he became a murderer. In the comics, Batman always tried to redeem Two-Face. Now that he can't, Freeze can be the one to be redeemed.

Because the best thing about Freeze is that he CAN be redeemed. Bruce can come to see in Freeze the redeeming opportunity he never had with Harvey. We need to see a character that can turn bad and still show a ray of light, a touch of redemption at least. Freeze is that character.


Of course, the sci-fi 'cooling' problem makes it complicated to work in this new universe where plausibility rules. Still, “complicated” is not “impossible”. There are many good ideas to make a completely plausible Mr. Freeze in the Freeze thread, especially in the comments of HereToComment27. I urge everybody to check them out.

His condition, being unable to survive in real life temperatures, must be there... ideally. He needs that to reinforce the notion of him not being able to return to normal life. To reinforce the overall theme of the movie... being an outcast, like Batman, or Catwoman to a lesser extent.
The Joker could put makeup on his face whenever he wanted. Dent could have been treated with skin injertions and so... but he rejected them.
Freeze shouldn’t be able to do this, because he's not a bad soul. And yet, his condition makes him unable to go back to normal life. His character needs that.
If the Nolan's can't find a good way to put that in their universe, it's alright. But IDEALLY, Freeze needs the condition.
There are good military exoskeletons that are strength enhancers and can be used as a cooling suit of sorts. Plus, the ‘mecha’ technology of Iron Man is almost ready to be used in real life, as I read in Yahoo News.
That part of his depiction should be kept integrally.

He should also freeze people, and that doesn't have to be a gratuitous gimmick. It can be very practical. He needs frozen bodies (or frozen body parts) to experiment on the organs and use them to find a cure for his wife's condition. Freeze shouldn’t have any kind of M.O. or a fetish or a routine… He's just very focused and determined, even cold-hearted (except about his wife).

I'm also completely against Freeze wanting revenge. Mr. Freeze, when done correctly, is not about revenge. It’s about slowly losing humanity despite his very human motives. He behaves cold and sort-of-emotionless. He's just ready to do whatever it takes to cure his wife. Whatever it takes. And that is very similar to Batman, who’s slowly losing his identity and his emotional world to do whatever it takes to fight crime.

So if Victor freezes people, it’s because it’s good for his goal of saving the life of his wife.

He must not lose Nora, or at least for most of the movie. Norah is alive and frozen (or in coma) and she may die later, but her death must not be his motivation.

Not unlike Dent in TDK, Freeze needs a lot of screen time to show his story arc, only this time his arc is even bigger than Dent’s. He goes through good and vulnerable guy - desperate good guy who tries to save a life - tragic event - desperate guy who starts doing horrible things to save a loved one - he gets more and more focused on doing that and starts losing his humanity - at some point circumstances make him detest what he has done and helps Batman in some way - he gets redemption, in jail... or in exile... but he's happy because either his wife is now cured or she has a legitimate chance of getting a cure.

Freeze needs Nora alive to justify his crimes and to commit them in the first place. He needs to steal and kill his way to save her. That's a powerful idea... he's committing crimes... even killing people... to save the life of the one he loves... instead of learning how to let her go.
That's the most powerful and sad statement Freeze can make to the audience. And no matter how difficult it is to present him in a plausible way, that statement is worthy of the Nolan films. Nolan is very comfortable with the “dead wife” motivations. From Memento to The Prestige, from his Ra’s al Ghul to Two-Face, he keeps returning to the dead loved one motivation. And he has excelled himself in it. Nolan is the best in that theme. And he must explore redemption with that character…

And this is the real deal-breaker for me.
Can Freeze get Redemption after killing people? Can he be pardoned of his crimes?

That's exactly the point. Taunting with moral relativity. How do you deal with a guy that kills innocent people but later has a change of heart, helps an entire city (we're talking about millions of people) and then willingly goes to prison for his crimes? How do you deal with the idea of someone who takes lives... not because he's seeking revenge, but to save a good soul's life? To save a loved one's life?

Those who have seen Lost and it’s entire Second Season will remember Michael. How do you deal with Michael... a guy who killed two women (one not so innocent, intentionally, and one very innocent, unintentionally) to save the life of his son?

How do you deal with those things?

Either way, the way you judge Freeze talks more about you than about the character. And that kind of complex moral depth was absent even in TDK. Good and evil were almost clear there... but what happens when it's not anymore? How is Batman supposed to deal with a good woman who's a criminal, a bad guy who's in the side of the Law, and a good man who kills people to save the life of his innocent wife?

How is Batman supposed to deal with the fact that he is an outcast, pursued by the very same society he's been defending for so long?

The redemption theme in Freeze must be tackled... whether the audience thinks he achieved it, or not.


There is ONLY one casting possibility for Freeze, though. That is Ben Kingsley. Not Patrick Steward, not Ed Harris and certainly not Vin Diesel. Only Ben Kingsley. See “House Of Sand And Fog”, period. You’ll thank me for it.


If Victor Fries has ties to Wayne Enterprises (maybe a former member of the Applied Science division) then that would be a great way to give screen time to Lucius Fox. He and Fries may have some kind of bond in the past that should give Fox some pretty decent role to play.

I like the idea in part, but i think Freeze has to pose a bigger threat to gotham in order for Batman to redeem himself in the eyes of the citizens.

I don't fancy Kingsley for the role, though he is a better option than the other three you mentioned.

I think the redemption theme could be the focus of all the characters including Fox: he could have designed the technology and given it to Freeze.

 

[TheTrickster]

REGARDING PART OF THE PLOT:

I had a very strange (and potentially ridiculous) idea. This is not the first time I post it, but read it again please, and tell me what you think about it…



I'm all for the idea of Riddler being an egocentric federal agent who gets obsessed with catching the Batman. He makes a fake villain alter ego called the Riddler and leave clues in crime scenes to lure Batman into his traps. His traps get bigger and more dangerous, he gets caught an expulsed from the FBI. So, then he goes after the thing his prizes the most.

What is the thing that Edward Nygma prizes most in the world? Answers. Knowledge. He wants to know every answer to every valuable question out. And as far as valuable go, knowing who Batman is ranks really high. But apart from that, knowledge is the thing that Nygma craves the most. So, what would be one thing from TDK that the Riddler would ambition the most?

The bat-sonar-computer. The thing that would help him locate (and listen to) every gothamite with a cell phone out there, just turning it on.

But Fox destroyed the computer…. Well, if one person besides Fox can fix it again, that should be the Riddler.

And if there’s someone who can get him inside Wayne Enterprises, is a former employee. A former employee that broke inside the building and found the room with the computer that was kept secret. A former employee like Victor Fries.

And maybe Freeze needs the Riddler to crack into the hospitals database and find an organ donor who matches his wife’s blood-type. That donor turns out to be a very elusive cat-burglar. And Freeze needs Riddler to fix the bat-sonar in order to find…. Selina Kyle, a.k.a. Catwoman.

And the least Batman wants is Freeze finding Selina. Or the Riddler getting his hands on that sonar.

I'm not sure who should be the main villain of the three, Freeze, Riddler or Catwoman.

That decision (who should stand more) should be taken AFTER you flesh out the characters as much as you can.

For now, for me it should be Catwoman first, then Freeze and Riddler in equal parts. Her character and her relationship with Bruce can have so many subtleties and psychological explorations that she's number one for me.

She ranks higher in the rogue's gallery in the comics, too.


I know, it is very raw way of combining the three, but maybe when you use the Bat-sonar-computer, the idea doesn’t sound too far-fetched to others.



By the way, this compilation of ideas has been divided in six (6) very long posts. Excuse me for my lack of synthesis. Read what you want, and those who read it completely, tell me what you thought of it. Thank you.

What about instead of the riddler being an FBI agent, make him a university professor. Him and Freeze could be competing for a research grant and Freeze wins the funding. The grant could be from Wayne enterprises or some Wayne associated charity. The Riddler finds out that Freeze has used the money to fund private research and begins blackmailing him by kidnapping his wife. Freeze ends up working for Riddler, killing and terrorising the city. The riddlers main aim is to find out who batman is.

Bit sketchy, but it was a five minute thought while i went to buy lunch.

 

[Gianakin_]

What about instead of the riddler being an FBI agent, make him a university professor. Him and Freeze could be competing for a research grant and Freeze wins the funding. The grant could be from Wayne enterprises or some Wayne associated charity. The Riddler finds out that Freeze has used the money to fund private research and begins blackmailing him by kidnapping his wife. Freeze ends up working for Riddler, killing and terrorising the city. The riddlers main aim is to find out who batman is.

Bit sketchy, but it was a five minute thought while i went to buy lunch.

The agent idea keeps Gordon more in the loop, though. It gives him more to do by offering more dynamics between Batman and him.

 

[TheTrickster]

The agent idea keeps Gordon more in the loop, though. It gives him more to do by offering more dynamics between Batman and him.

But surely the fact that Freeze is terrorising the city will keep Gordon in the loop. He is going to be hunting Freeze also.

 

[Gianakin_]

But surely the fact that Freeze is terrorising the city will keep Gordon in the loop. He is going to be hunting Freeze also.

Hunting a villain is one thing. Having an inside threat on his team is a whole different subplot. And they can expand on the matter of bad cops that began in BB and was touched upon a bit more in TDK.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

almost everyone is talking about batmans ascension back into the good graces of gotham. but i would think it would really break the mould if Nolan went the other way, Batman falling further into despair.
Batman is already broken and reeling from what has happened in TDK but he still has his duty. then a new criminal comes to town (Bane) and wants to rule gotham with a iron-fist. he springs all the patients at arkham and prisoners from the super-max prison and watches patiently and studies batmans every move and technique. All the while Batman suspects someone in the shadows is responsible and investigates further, maybe missing Bane by minutes on occasions. Then when batman is at his weakest and most vulnerable Bane attacks and completely annihalates him.

 

[Gianakin_]

almost everyone is talking about batmans ascension back into the good graces of gotham. but i would think it would really break the mould if Nolan went the other way, Batman falling further into despair.
Batman is already broken and reeling from what has happened in TDK but he still has his duty. then a new criminal comes to town (Bane) and wants to rule gotham with a iron-fist. he springs all the patients at arkham and prisoners from the super-max prison and watches patiently and studies batmans every move and technique. All the while Batman suspects someone in the shadows is responsible and investigates further, maybe missing Bane by minutes on occasions. Then when batman is at his weakest and most vulnerable Bane attacks and completely annihalates him.

As I've said before, ending the trilogy with a cliffhanger is a horrible idea to me. Especially when you don't know if Nolan would return for a no4 (we'll be blessed if he returns for BB3).

I would have accepted it when Singer was about to do X3 and X4 back to back, but I doubt Nolan would do it. So I say, keep it simple.

 

[TheTrickster]

Hunting a villain is one thing. Having an inside threat on his team is a whole different subplot. And they can expand on the matter of bad cops that began in BB and was touched upon a bit more in TDK.

The FBI would surely have jurisdiction over Gordon, so he'd be given the orders to Gordon. This means that Gordon would be the inside threat, or the corrupt cop.

 

[Gianakin_]

The FBI would surely have jurisdiction over Gordon, so he'd be given the orders to Gordon. This means that Gordon would be the inside threat, or the corrupt cop.

Well, even better!

 

[TheTrickster]

Well, even better!

But then if the FBI guy is the Riddler and he is trying to catch batman then he's just doing his job. Or am i missing something obvious?

 

[Gianakin_]

But then if the FBI guy is the Riddler and he is trying to catch batman then he's just doing his job. Or am i missing something obvious?

What has been generally suggested is that the Riddler has bigger goals. He start to do his job, creates the Riddler persona as a simple cat-mouse trap for Batman, but he becomes so obssessed that he loses it completely, causing casualties (material, human, or whatever) left and right. In the end, he becomes a threat to the entire city.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think if the riddler targeted the biggest company in gotham (wayne enterprises) to lure the batman out that could be quite interesting. he doesn't know WE has anything to do with batman at first but maybe stumbles across some info that links the two. that would make bruce/batmans efforts to catch this mysterious "riddler" more desperate because he doesn't want his family name ruined. this could play into my thoughts about the theme of guilt aswell, bruce feeling guilty for rachel and harvey and that he has let his father down, maybe a visit to his parents graves for forgiveness or advice.

 

[Gianakin_]

The suggested idea for the Riddler also contributes to another theme that could be explored in the film, my personal favorite: Duality.

 

[TheTrickster]

Black mask could be a better option. To people with similar wealth choosing different options. It could be double duality.

 

[Gianakin_]

Black mask could be a better option. To people with similar wealth choosing different options. It could be double duality.

What I mean with duality is getting lost in the persona: Bruce to Batman, Nashton to Riddler. Yes, the same thing could happen with Sionis and Black Mask, but I find the Riddler a more interesting choice. Especially because of his intellect, he is a character that the Nolans can easily nail.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

What I mean with duality is getting lost in the persona: Bruce to Batman, Nashton to Riddler. Yes, the same thing could happen with Sionis and Black Mask, but I find the Riddler a more interesting choice. Especially because of his intellect, he is a character that the Nolans can easily nail.

Actually I think you could fit Black Mask and Riddler both in a movie together comfortably. Maybe even Catwoman as well.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

who reckons Andy Serkis for Riddler?

 

[Batman137]

The Dark Knight wasnt as dark as i thought it was going to be. i want the third to be very dark. like dont bring your kids cause they will be scared ****less dark. anyone else?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think TDK was dark and depressing enough, but i did want to see a little bit more violence. it doesn't bother me hugely though but with nolan going for the realistic approach some scenes (bank manager getting shot in the gut, bus driver getting smoked from point blank range) there should of been at least a little bit of blood. there shouldn't be no compromises just for the kids.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

The Dark Knight wasnt as dark as i thought it was going to be. i want the third to be very dark. like dont bring your kids cause they will be scared ****less dark. anyone else?

Well they still have to make money and kids are a big part of the potential audience.

Also If they are playing the evening, night, dawn theme, then theoretically the next one should start out very dark, maybe on level with TDK and be happy by the end.

 

[Gianakin_]

The Dark Knight wasnt as dark as i thought it was going to be. i want the third to be very dark. like dont bring your kids cause they will be scared ****less dark. anyone else?

I'm not sure I'm into this kind of darkness. TDK had the type of darkness that I prefer: Whatever Batman did, nobody was safe and in the end the good guys essentially lost.