The Dark Knight Rises Theme of the Third movie

[Gianakin_]

Actually I think you could fit Black Mask and Riddler both in a movie together comfortably. Maybe even Catwoman as well.

Yes, you could. But Catwoman is essential for BB3, imo.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Yes, you could. But Catwoman is essential for BB3, imo.

True. Actually if you sum up every movie having 7 main characters, you can fit all 3 characters in fine with good time for development, especially if a mob boss (or even Morgan Freeman who might not stay on) is taken out. All 3 characters also show the concept of duality well too.

Batman Begins
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Rachel Dawes
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Rhas al Ghul
Dr. Crane/ Scarecrow

The Dark Knight
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Rachel Dawes
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Harvey Dent/Two Face
The Joker

BB3
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Selina Kyle/Catwoman
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Ed Nashton/The Riddler
Roman Sionis/Black Mask

 

[Gianakin_]

Yes, the key thing is that many characters don't have a story arc: Alfred, Fox, the occasional mob boss. That way, you can always focus on Batman and 2 other characters. It's feasible.

Although TDK had character arcs only for Batman and Dent, a very good amount of time was given to Gordon and he was developed just fine. Something similar could be done for BB3.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

Yes, the key thing is that many characters don't have a story arc: Alfred, Fox, the occasional mob boss. That way, you can always focus on Batman and 2 other characters. It's feasible.

Although TDK had character arcs only for Batman and Dent, a very good amount of time was given to Gordon and he was developed just fine. Something similar could be done for BB3.

This is true. I would say the only characters that would need a true story arc in the list above would be Batman and Catwoman. The Riddler would be nice to see though, optional. Just as long as he gets good character development through pure screen time, much like Fox. Black Mask would provide a good wild card villain and as long as you know he is a mean SOB, he doesn't need an arc.

I guarantee that they try to keep it with seven characters or under. Anymore would seem cumbersome to me despite the fact I'd also like to see Jason Bard, Harvey Bullock and Leslie Thompkins.

To be honest, for how much I love Gary Oldman, Gordon's role could easily be reduced. He might have had nearly as much screen time as Batman in TDK.

We also have to remember Begins worked fine and the only character with a true character arc was Bruce Wayne/Batman himself.

 

[Gianakin_]

We also have to remember Begins worked fine and the only character with a true character arc was Bruce Wayne/Batman himself.

I agree with this rationale, as it's the 1st real thought that came to mind when TDK was over (the previous thoughts before this weren't "real" because they were in the vein of "Oh my God, what did I see, Jesus Christ, wow").

The focus needs to get back to Batman because the ending of TDK clearly told me that the next movie will be Batman struggling against almost everyone.

I agree about the Gordon part, he was a treat in TDK, but yes, given an appropriate theme for BB3, he doesn't have to be as central as he was in TDK. He could be, though (and I'd more than welcome it).

I think Riddler and Catwoman are a great combination and the Riddler is more than optional, because he's a character that the Nolans would have -100 problems writing.

 

[The Guard]

That's the symbol that neither Batman nor Bruce has become. The symbol of a philantropist... the symbol of a giver, an inspiration of good, and not of "fighting against evil".

This is definitely how Selina/Catwoman needs to figure into Bruce's life, and I pray they figure out that this is a key part of Bruce's character evolution...and evolve him. But they've barely touched on it so far.

 

[regwec]

Leslie Thompkins offers another opportunity for that theme to be introduced.

I suppose the fundraiser for Dent's re ellection campaign is a hint at Bruce's use of his money to fight crime by proxy. To use a British political cliche, however, he is still being tough on crime rather than on the causes of crime. "Begins" established that, in The Narrows, Gotham has a few blocks of territory that is far more deprived than all the rest. Wayne Enterprises really should try to re develope the area.

 

[metalhead_dave]

By the way, this compilation of ideas has been divided in six (6) very long posts. Excuse me for my lack of synthesis. Read what you want, and those who read it completely, tell me what you thought of it. Thank you.

Dude that was freaking amazing. You ARE Chris Nolan in disguise.t:

My only problems are Freeze and the bat sonar computer ideas. I feel putting Freeze in there, with that kind of great character arc you suggested, would overstuff the movie in a Sandman Spidey-3 way. Having just Riddler and Catwoman in the story streamlines everything. And the Bat sonar computer idea seems KIND of convoluted for Riddler to get to that point.

However, I LOVE your interpretation of the Riddler. THAT was freaking amazing. I remember someone saying that out of hunting Batman, Gotham creates a monster that Batman has to stop, thus sort of redeeming our dear Dark Knight. Nygma, in how you described him, can DEFINITLEY be this monster.

 

[scifiwolf]

I just got through reading the thread, and must say it's probably the best one in the BB sequel forum.

Melkay, I particularly like your take on Catwoman. The socialite/philanthropist slant was such a gaping hole in her character in Batman Returns. I personally don't see a character like Freeze working in the Nolanverse, but I was very impressed with your suggestions.

As far as the theme goes, I don't know if it was as clear-cut in TDK as it was in BB. TDK had so much going for it, it's hard to pin down a central theme or motif to the film. I think the theme of anarchy is probably the most global in TDK. For the third, I would be thrilled if it were just as textured and layered as TDK. Redemption is obvious, as several people have discussed already in this thread. I think the concept of a "slippery slope" is something that will emerge across all three films when they are viewed together in later years.

One thing I haven't seen discussed is legacy, particularly as it connects to a man's mortality. Bruce takes on this very high risk activity of a vigilante, so I think it would be nice to see him begin to think about what legacy he's going to leave. This could also be a good way to bring in Dick Grayson. Not necessarily to introduce Robin, but leave that door open for the franchise post Bale/Nolan.

 

[flickchick85]

Actually I think you could fit Black Mask and Riddler both in a movie together comfortably. Maybe even Catwoman as well.

ITA. I posted a scenario in another thread that featured those exact 3 characters, using someone else's interesting concept for the Riddler that I liked a lot, and they all served a story with the theme of redemption. *goes and finds it*

Here it was, in all of its uber-long and jumbled glory, for anyone interested:

It starts off with Batman lower than he's ever been before. He's hunted by the entire city. The FBI has been called in. He doesn't even have Gordon as an ally anymore (Gordon would like to be, but can't). Whoever the real Bruce Wayne is, he's getting lost inside of this monster of his, like Alfred warned him about. Batman becomes his sole state of mind. He now sees it as some sort of punishment or penance he has to pay for all the people he feels he's let down (Rachel, Harvey, his parents, etc.).

Ironically, as dire as Batman's situation has become, his FAKE Bruce Wayne persona has never been better. Business at Wayne Enterprises is booming, and they are very close to obliterating a competing corporation, which has relatively recently been taken over by Roman Sionis, the disturbed son of the founder who has essentially run his father's company into the ground in a very short amount of time. Sionis is someone who grew up in the same circles as Wayne, their parents having been "friends" (though Sionis's parents were two-faced rich folks who really only pretended to be friends with the Waynes while bad-mouthing them in private often in front of their son). I see Roman as sort of the Bizarro Wayne - how Bruce might have turned out if he didn't have great role models like his parents and Alfred. His father had kept his company afloat through lots of dirty business and ties to the criminal underworld. Well, Roman has a hard time mainting those connections, largely because these criminal figures have never had any respect for him as he's a lousy businessman. So he loses these connections, and consequently, loses his company to Bruce Wayne, who he's ALWAYS been jealous of since childhood. It's this utter failure and humiliation that makes him put on a black mask and go out and murder/torture those criminals who turned their backs on him and caused his downfall. Still uber-wealthy, he starts a gang and insists they all wear these terrifying skull masks (The False Face Society). He's got a much better knack for crime than he ever had for business, and rises to power quickly, largely through simply sadistically murdering anyone who he thinks will get in the way. Fear does the rest. He's a total sociopath. And as soon as The False Face Society is assembled, they start kidnapping, torturing, and killing Wayne Enterprises employees (even after ransoms may have been paid). But all the while, he keeps his Roman Sionis persona, a corporate failure, who's now a "retired" socialite playboy. No one in the underworld has a clue that he's this Black Mask killer. Sionis is the socialite king of Gotham's East End, and its queen would be the much more savvy, sophisticated, and charitable Selina Kyle, who is pretty much the East End's favorite resident for all of her generous contributions to the community. Little do they know that she gets her money from stealing from the many other wealthy (probably crooked) citizens of Gotham, and her alter ego is known simply as the East End Catburglar. Selina knows Sionis is a sick puppy, he's always disturbed her, and she knows his family is as crooked as they come, so she's always looking for a way to take him down.

Meanwhile, the FBI have brought in Edward Nashton to help capture Batman, and he has 100% support of the people and the police. He and his team intercept a crime scene from Gotham PD: one of Black Mask's early murders. In the interest of capturing Batman, they create a fake criminal: The Riddler. They plant fake evidence for Batman to make it look like this new criminal is responsible (the first bread crumb of their dummy trail), while Gotham PD investigates the real Black Mask case. Nashton creates fake crime scenes and uses some of Black Mask's real ones in a cat and mouse game with Batman as the Riddler. So while Gordon, Gotham PD, and Catwoman are on the Black Mask case, Batman is on the trail of this fake criminal, who they even use to communicate with Batman through the media. But Batman never completely falls into Nashton's traps (and Edward never gives away that these crime scenes are fake - Batman just thinks he's being taunted by the criminal leaving them), and Nashton becomes obsessed with outsmarting him. His methods get out of hand, and innocent people start to become collateral damage. Nashton is then taken off the case and kicked out of the Bureau. But he continues the Riddler antics, and when he's completely over the edge, he kidnaps Coleman Reese and makes it look (to the Gotham PD) like Reese is just the latest Wayne Enterprises employee to fall victim to Black Mask. Nashton remembers that Reese claimed to know who the Batman was once upon a time, and he eventually gets the truth out of Reese before killing him. Nashton plans his final showdown with Batman as some sort of media spectacle, in which he plans to reveal his true identity to the entire world, ensuring his triumph be known to the masses. He also happens to be aware of a certain killer with a MAJOR grudge against Bruce Wayne, so as an insurance policy, he leaves a little "riddle" for Black Mask that only he could understand, and a semi-alliance is formed (Black Mask & his gang will be Riddler's muscle in case things go wrong, will kill Batman after media event, or something like that).

Earlier in the story, the Black Mask killer gets on Catwoman's radar after he mercilessly kills a child (or maybe one of her hooker "friends"/informants?) in the East End who witnessed one of his murders. It becomes her side mission to find out who this killer is. In the mean time, Bruce and Selina meet the same way they did in the animated series. She buys a date with him at a charity auction, but wants nothing to do with the actual date - she just did it for charity, and she's generally disgusted by that whole social circle, so she wants nothing to do with Wayne. Bruce finds her unusual attitude refreshing, and insists that he owes her a date, so she reluctantly agrees. Sometime after that, the East End Catburglar has her first encounter with Batman, narrowly escapes, and is instantly drawn to him, and thinks he may be her soulmate. In the fray she scars his face, so when she opens the door to her date wishing it was Batman, she's ecstatic to discover (thanks to the scar) that he IS Batman. Of course, she doesn't let Bruce know any of this, but she's much more enthusiastic about dating him now, and she sees right through Bruce's fake persona and constantly calls him out on it. Everytime he tries to lie as a cover, she knows, so he's forced to be himself around her. And so begins her romance with the real Bruce Wayne. On their dates (when they're not doing thrill-seeking activities like skydiving or something), they have discussions about their outlooks/philosophies, often on the state of their city and debate about "The Batman" - Selina works to bring him out of his funk, make him feel better about what "Batman" does, convinces him that The Batman should take pride in his work and shouldn't have to answer to anyone, all without ever letting him know she knows his true identity. And while he may disagree with that general outlook, she does actually make him feel better and helps him re-think his work so far as Batman. She also fills him in on the Black Mask killer, which gives him the upper hand (of knowledge, anyway) over the Riddler in their cat & mouse game...until Riddler discovers his identity.

Throughout the entire movie, Selina is planning her biggest score yet: Roman Sionis's estate, the most secure building in Gotham. She decides that Batman's big media circus with the Riddler is the perfect time to make her move, so she does, since she's completely confident that Bruce can handle the Riddler. Yet while she's in there, she discovers evidence that he is Black Mask, along the message (or something) from the Riddler, and she realizes just how much danger Bruce is in. She leaves her score behind to help him. In the final confrontation (where perhaps Black Mask or Riddler has kidnapped Lucius Fox to draw Batman out), Catwoman saves Batman and kills Black Mask (her 1st and only kill), Batman neutralizes (don't really care how) Edward Nashton, who's now pretty much decided he actually WAS The Riddler, and Batman "catches" Catwoman and unmasks her. He's shocked and hurt to discover it's Selina, who pleads with him to let her go, arguing that if she goes to jail and her reputation is destroyed, her charities will crumble. He insists that she pay for her crimes anyway, and that if she had truly loved him, she would understand that. He leaves her chained or handcuffed to something for the police, but he subtley leaves her an escape. And surprisingly...she doesn't take it. The movie ends with Selina facing her worst fear - a cage - for Bruce, and Bruce takes the reigns on all of her charities, causing the media to be all abuzz over this new direction - "Bruce Wayne: Philanthropist?" The citizens of Gotham call for the return of the batsignal (during this media circus, the whole truth came out about the villains), the FBI falls back due to an internal affairs investigation over the whole Edward Nashton ordeal and all the innocents that died because of them.

The theme is redemption: Batman is redeemed in the eyes of Gotham's citizens, Gotham's citizens are redeemed in the eyes of the audience (since they were essentially "villains" throughout most of the story), and Selina is redeemed in the eyes of Bruce. She's restored his faith in humanity and given him a new outlook on WHY he does what he does: He's not Batman because he's paying a pennance anymore, and he's not Batman because he has to be; he's Batman because he WANTS to be. And this is the arrival of that "Dawn" Harvey Dent spoke of in TDK. For once, everyone in Gotham, including Bruce Wayne, has hope and contentment with their situation.

Sorry if this is all a bit jumbled, but it all kinda came to me at once after I read that great Riddler concept, so kudos to whoever came up with that. And yeah, I'm totally fuzzy on the details of how it would all play out. But cheers to anyone who actually managed to read all that. I probably would've given up somewhere around the middle.

That's just one of many ways that Catwoman, Riddler, and Black Mask could all fit organically into 1 movie.

 

[elgato]

Batman III

Main Characters
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Selina Kyle/Catwoman*
James Gordon

Villains
Selina Kyle/Catwoman*
Edward Nygma

Supporting Characters
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox

 

[elgato]

*She can work out as a hero and a villain

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

ITA. I posted a scenario in another thread that featured those exact 3 characters, using someone else's interesting concept for the Riddler that I liked a lot, and they all served a story with the theme of redemption. *goes and finds it*

Here it was, in all of its uber-long and jumbled glory, for anyone interested:



That's just one of many ways that Catwoman, Riddler, and Black Mask could all fit organically into 1 movie.

Actually I did read that and though it could use some streamlining, its a very good concept and how I think you could fit all 3 comfortably into a less then 3 hour movie.

I've been thinking of Black Mask as a sort of Bizzaro Batman for a while now too and I fully expect to see him in the next movie considering he was in early drafts of TDK. If it were me, I might play him up as someone who is completely a corporate villain rather then a mob boss. Maybe sort of like what Bruce might have became had he shot Joe Chill and gotten away with it. Someone who does what he wants, almost because he is so spoiled he feels sorry for himself and uses his wealth for bad. Either that or make him 1st a cult leader and then a crime boss. I think the mob's time has passed.

I think it would work great with 3 villains all wearing black masks so the crimes from Sionis and Catwoman could initially be blamed on Batman alienating him even more. Sort of a twist on the beginning of TDK with all the fake Batmen combined with the element of the rise of the freaks and the Joker's influence. 4 costumed freaks would be more then enough to show that concept.

 

[plod]

status quo, new Wayne Manor and the Batcave as we remember it from the comics. A cross between the BatBunker (which I loved) and the Begins cave. I'd also like to see the public redemption of Batman, although what would Gordon do? Probably do a Ned Flanders and acted as if he didn't know what was going on.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

status quo, new Wayne Manor and the Batcave as we remember it from the comics. A cross between the BatBunker (which I loved) and the Begins cave. I'd also like to see the public redemption of Batman, although what would Gordon do? Probably do a Ned Flanders and acted as if he didn't know what was going on.

Well Batman could pretty much publicly show him and Gordon have always been buddy-buddy ending the problem there.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

I like Melkays Ideas involving Catwoman, Freeze and Riddler.

Heres my 2 cents on it thought, I think an interesting introduction for Selina Kyle and Bruce Wayne would be at the Reopening of Wayne Manor, a party thrown, she would be there casing the place planning on coming in and stealing anything she can get her hands on. I think this would also be a great place for a penguin cameo, not as a villain but just showing he is firmly routed in high society attending functions of this nature. I could see a sup-plot also extending to Catwoman stealing from both Batman and Penguin, that it be the theft from his own home that puts batman on her trail and starts the cat and mouse games.

I like the idea of Riddler using a jilted former employee to gain access to wayne enterprises also but rather than have freeze be an ex employee how about bring by mr. earl for this purpose little more than a cameo.

About Freeze if he is going to freeze people for the purpose of curing his wife, I think its important for him to only go after people suffering the same condition, not just freezing the random guy walking his dog. He could break into hospitals to get the information about the patients he needs.

 

[Ekricket]

THE RIDDLER:

The first thing to do with the Riddler is avoiding the inevitable comparisons with the Joker, and not just in the performances. The Joker never showed his origins, but he stands in a far superior level than any other villain.... because in the comics he has no origin. It's not the same with the Riddler.
In BB, Crane had his origin as the Scarecrow, and he is Really Creepy.
Ra's Al Ghul was a very powerful villain, and even he had an origin (or at least a portion of it: "once I had a wife, my great love, she was taken from me").
Two-Face had an origin, obviously, because that's the most important part of that character.

The Riddler can't be just “Riddler”. He needs a well explained transition. If he lacks this, he's not a character... he's a stereotype. Characters need progression and a development arc. They need origins. The Nolans removed any origin from the Joker and they succeeded, but they cannot do it all the time and get away with it.

Especially for one reason... obsession needs time to take in. The Riddler needs to take progressive steps towards obsession, towards insanity. Making the Riddler a mastermind with a plan from the beginning of the movie doesn't make him a well portrayed character, but a generic super-villain. That's not right.

When I join all the origin ideas I’ve read and liked, this is what I get:

He's a FBI agent, brilliant with computer technology, maybe a former code-breaker, who arrives with the ·Batman Task-Force· (leaded by the famous Ellen Yindel, from the comics). Since Batman is a vigilante, he stages fake crimes to lure him out and catch him, but Batman keeps eluding his traps. Then, Nygma he gets obsessed about catching him. First, he tries to ruin his reputation in front of the public opinion by framing him in some crime and exposing his relationship to an infamous cat-burglar . Then, behind Commissioner Gordon’s back he creates a criminal alter-ego called “The Riddler”, who commits real crimes and leaves clues to lure Batman into deathly traps traps. They get out of hand, presenting real harm not just to Batman, but to police officers as well.

When Nygma is discovered, he's smart enough to avoid being caught (I'll leave the how to you) and then gets completely obsessed with outsmarting Batman and catching and unmasking him, inside or outside the Law.
He cracks Wayne Enterprises along with other companies to get an impressive sum of money, and then hires many mob goons to make the ultimate crime/trap to catch the Batman and find out who he is... a question that, of course, has been torturing him since day one .

The motivation of the Riddler is essential... is the moment of win or lose for the character. The stronger and better the motivation, the more believable the character. Angry cops pursuing an innocent man until the edge of the world isn't foreign to good story-telling. Inspector Javert, from Les Misérables, is possibly the best example out there.

Let’s put Harvey Bullock in this idea and actually make him sympathetic towards the cause of agent Nygma. Maybe he can even help Nygma behind Gordon's back. Bullock is not a bad character at all and can be crucial on giving Nygma some breach or leverage inside the Police Force, after Gordon opposes him and his methods.


Bullock is the cop that hates and distrusts the Batman and puts everything forward to chase him. That cop is there for a reason, to extrapolate to all the cops that also distrust Batman. Montoya, on the other hand, can be presented for the opposite reason. To show cops inside the GPD that actually want to help those meddling Feds that came along with Nygma (Ellen Yindel and his 'Batman Task Force') is telling a lot about the human beings that are under Gordon's command.

So there we flesh out both the Riddler and the Police Force.

All the Riddler ideas I like, into one.



Ideas that I don’t like:
- He can't be so much about crashing online systems. Crashing networks doesn't really work for a summer action movie, unless the result of those crashes are quite visible in the city... but that has already been done, recently... last year in Live Free Or Die Hard. The last Nolan Bat-movie can’t be a Die Hard rip-off.
- He can’t be a Zodiac pastiche. That is completely wrong. He doesn’t kill people and he doesn’t come out of the blue, like the Joker did. He is not a serial killer. And he must not be so similar to the Joker in TDK, because that type role won’t be topped ever by the Riddler. Like I said, he needs his origin.


Besides, it fits perfectly into the end of TDK. Nygma could be a federal agent pursuing Batman that would drive him away even more from society and his relationship with Gordon. That's why I find the agent idea so compelling and so true to the character. The Riddler is a guy obsessed with winning, and he's so narcissistic that he thinks he can go beyond the law because he represents Justice, and Justice always must catch the criminal, whatever it takes. Especially one as interesting as the Batman.

He wants to defeat Batman at all costs. That's him. Intellectual obsession... that's the Riddler. That's Edward Nygma. An example of how we can be dragged by vanity to achieve a victory (not unlike we fighting for a supposed victory in Iraq), and of how or obsessed desires to KNOW can make worse persons of us.

Nolan explored that theme excellently in The Prestige. He can do it even better this time.

Now that Batman is running away from the cops, the Riddler can put a lot of pressure on him. So far, Batman has experienced the consequences of his acts upon others... now he needs to suffer the consequences of his acts upon himself, and the Riddler can put the most pressure on him by trying to catch him with traps that really put Bruce's (and other people’s) life in jeopardy.

Plot-wise, The Riddler can be used in a multitude of ways. Maybe Nygma, in his desperation, tries to get inside the Batman's mind by going to the only psychiatrist that has been in contact with him... former doctor Jonhathan Crane, even making some kind of deal with him to make him cooperate, against all advices from Commissioner Gordon.
Maybe he finds help from policemen that, despite being loyal to Gordon, have a very deep distrust of the Batman. These cops are embodied in the comics in the figure of detective Harvey Bullock.

What about Bats almost always being a step ahead of Nygma, until Nygma becomes a criminal and then Bats needs to stop him but doesn’t know how?
A lil’ bit of both alternatives. A truly dynamic cat-and-mouse chase. I say this because The Riddlers biggest frustration is that Batman outsmarts him lots of times. This frustration is essential for the character and must be shown.


Who could play the Riddler? Well, basically anybody. And I mean anybody. Nygma’s physical qualities are so generic that there are dozens of great actor apt to play him. Actors that range from Johnny Depp to Christopher (check his small part in “Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas”. It’s good.) Take a random movie like Flight of the Phoenix and you have three perfectly good choices for the Riddler: Dennis Quaid, Hugh Laurie and Giovanni Ribsi. See The Green Mile and you get three more.
All of them are incredibly good actors who could pull off very different yet faithful Riddlers.

So no, I don’t have any idea for casting this guy.

The Riddler as a fed can be a great way to give screen time to Gordon and the police officers.

I think your origin story here lends itself well to the viral type of campaign. There is only so much you can do in a three hour movie without making it just about the origins of the Riddler. If you backed it out a year, and had a (unbelievable as it sounds) much more intense viral campaign, you could start the origin story out and have plenty of time and depth to develop it. I think a second viral would go much more public than the first did (witness the exponential growing following toward the end of the first one) and give Nolan the storyboard he needs to go over the top with the thrid film.

 

[blknrdcllctv]

MR. FREEZE:

I, like many people, think that Redemption will be one of the main themes for the next movie. And the best villain in all the Bat-verse to show that is Mr. Freeze.

What makes Freeze such a great character is that he is an almost perfect reflection of Batman in his new state. Freeze lost his last loved one and he's now breaking rules just to bring her back (something Bruce would love to have the opportunity to do). He was once a good soul but his life was thwarted by tragedy, and he has decided to go outside the law to get harmony back in his life. He is trying to cheat death, and the death theme would be good to explore in Bruce's life.
His parents died (we still need some good Wayne's grave scene), his love died, the man who embodied hope in his city (Harvey) also died.


Mr. Freeze is driven by anger and hate, and has blocked his emotions from getting to his only goal, to save his life. He's doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He's very much like Batman, only he is willing to kill and his goal is far more personal. And they're both outcasts, because they chose to do things outside the law. But Freeze doesn't see his wife dead, and thus he's more desperate than Bruce because is harder for him to make peace with his tragedy.

That's precisely why I think Freeze can enter in a bigger theme where Nolan explores the ambiguity present in some criminals... the ones who do the right thing for the wrong reasons. Because Freeze, unlike the Joker, is not exactly a villain... (Catwoman is not just a thief, and Nygma is not really a ‘good’ agent… they all fit very well in this theme).

Bruce seeks to stop Freeze and redeem him... redemption being the thing he wants the most, and the thing he could never achieve with Harvey after he became a murderer. In the comics, Batman always tried to redeem Two-Face. Now that he can't, Freeze can be the one to be redeemed.

Because the best thing about Freeze is that he CAN be redeemed. Bruce can come to see in Freeze the redeeming opportunity he never had with Harvey. We need to see a character that can turn bad and still show a ray of light, a touch of redemption at least. Freeze is that character.


Of course, the sci-fi 'cooling' problem makes it complicated to work in this new universe where plausibility rules. Still, “complicated” is not “impossible”. There are many good ideas to make a completely plausible Mr. Freeze in the Freeze thread, especially in the comments of HereToComment27. I urge everybody to check them out.

His condition, being unable to survive in real life temperatures, must be there... ideally. He needs that to reinforce the notion of him not being able to return to normal life. To reinforce the overall theme of the movie... being an outcast, like Batman, or Catwoman to a lesser extent.
The Joker could put makeup on his face whenever he wanted. Dent could have been treated with skin injertions and so... but he rejected them.
Freeze shouldn’t be able to do this, because he's not a bad soul. And yet, his condition makes him unable to go back to normal life. His character needs that.
If the Nolan's can't find a good way to put that in their universe, it's alright. But IDEALLY, Freeze needs the condition.
There are good military exoskeletons that are strength enhancers and can be used as a cooling suit of sorts. Plus, the ‘mecha’ technology of Iron Man is almost ready to be used in real life, as I read in Yahoo News.
That part of his depiction should be kept integrally.

He should also freeze people, and that doesn't have to be a gratuitous gimmick. It can be very practical. He needs frozen bodies (or frozen body parts) to experiment on the organs and use them to find a cure for his wife's condition. Freeze shouldn’t have any kind of M.O. or a fetish or a routine… He's just very focused and determined, even cold-hearted (except about his wife).

I'm also completely against Freeze wanting revenge. Mr. Freeze, when done correctly, is not about revenge. It’s about slowly losing humanity despite his very human motives. He behaves cold and sort-of-emotionless. He's just ready to do whatever it takes to cure his wife. Whatever it takes. And that is very similar to Batman, who’s slowly losing his identity and his emotional world to do whatever it takes to fight crime.

So if Victor freezes people, it’s because it’s good for his goal of saving the life of his wife.

He must not lose Nora, or at least for most of the movie. Norah is alive and frozen (or in coma) and she may die later, but her death must not be his motivation.

Not unlike Dent in TDK, Freeze needs a lot of screen time to show his story arc, only this time his arc is even bigger than Dent’s. He goes through good and vulnerable guy - desperate good guy who tries to save a life - tragic event - desperate guy who starts doing horrible things to save a loved one - he gets more and more focused on doing that and starts losing his humanity - at some point circumstances make him detest what he has done and helps Batman in some way - he gets redemption, in jail... or in exile... but he's happy because either his wife is now cured or she has a legitimate chance of getting a cure.

Freeze needs Nora alive to justify his crimes and to commit them in the first place. He needs to steal and kill his way to save her. That's a powerful idea... he's committing crimes... even killing people... to save the life of the one he loves... instead of learning how to let her go.
That's the most powerful and sad statement Freeze can make to the audience. And no matter how difficult it is to present him in a plausible way, that statement is worthy of the Nolan films. Nolan is very comfortable with the “dead wife” motivations. From Memento to The Prestige, from his Ra’s al Ghul to Two-Face, he keeps returning to the dead loved one motivation. And he has excelled himself in it. Nolan is the best in that theme. And he must explore redemption with that character…

And this is the real deal-breaker for me.
Can Freeze get Redemption after killing people? Can he be pardoned of his crimes?

That's exactly the point. Taunting with moral relativity. How do you deal with a guy that kills innocent people but later has a change of heart, helps an entire city (we're talking about millions of people) and then willingly goes to prison for his crimes? How do you deal with the idea of someone who takes lives... not because he's seeking revenge, but to save a good soul's life? To save a loved one's life?

Those who have seen Lost and it’s entire Second Season will remember Michael. How do you deal with Michael... a guy who killed two women (one not so innocent, intentionally, and one very innocent, unintentionally) to save the life of his son?

How do you deal with those things?

Either way, the way you judge Freeze talks more about you than about the character. And that kind of complex moral depth was absent even in TDK. Good and evil were almost clear there... but what happens when it's not anymore? How is Batman supposed to deal with a good woman who's a criminal, a bad guy who's in the side of the Law, and a good man who kills people to save the life of his innocent wife?

How is Batman supposed to deal with the fact that he is an outcast, pursued by the very same society he's been defending for so long?

The redemption theme in Freeze must be tackled... whether the audience thinks he achieved it, or not.


There is ONLY one casting possibility for Freeze, though. That is Ben Kingsley. Not Patrick Steward, not Ed Harris and certainly not Vin Diesel. Only Ben Kingsley. See “House Of Sand And Fog”, period. You’ll thank me for it.


If Victor Fries has ties to Wayne Enterprises (maybe a former member of the Applied Science division) then that would be a great way to give screen time to Lucius Fox. He and Fries may have some kind of bond in the past that should give Fox some pretty decent role to play.

You, my friend, are DEAD on. I would suggest a different actor for Freeze though - Jeremy Irons. He's been my guy for the role since Freeze's origin story in BTAS.

 

[The Batkilt]

I think a good theme for the next film should be armageddon/rebuilding... With the destruction caused by The Joker leaving a paved path for anyone else who cares to pick up where he left off, this would be a perfect time for Freeze to start looting to find a cure for his wife/go on a freezing rampage, and for Bane to release criminals from Arkham and try to take down Batman.

Just my thoughts.

No Man's Land came to mind when reading this post, though I realise that wasn't what you meant.

 

[blackmask-kill]

Blackmask and Death

 

[Cunning Stunts]

No Man's Land came to mind when reading this post, though I realise that wasn't what you meant.

Haha, that's actually kind of what I was aiming for.

No Man's Land kind of seems like the obvious "next step" for Nolan... To me, anyway.

 

[Ledlunar]

True. Actually if you sum up every movie having 7 main characters, you can fit all 3 characters in fine with good time for development, especially if a mob boss (or even Morgan Freeman who might not stay on) is taken out. All 3 characters also show the concept of duality well too.

Batman Begins
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Rachel Dawes
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Rhas al Ghul
Dr. Crane/ Scarecrow

The Dark Knight
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Rachel Dawes
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Harvey Dent/Two Face
The Joker

BB3
Bruce Wayne/Batman
Selina Kyle/Catwoman
Jim Gordon
Alfred Pennyworth
Lucius Fox
Ed Nashton/The Riddler
Roman Sionis/Black Mask

I like this but Im one for The Joker to return ... too many people heres "disgust"... he should be there instead of Black Mask in my humble opinion..

 

[spidey207]

bump

 

[Magic Griffin]

i'm quite keen on the idea of using some sort of device to link the third to the first film thematically...

say for instance a left-field choice for one of the villains, such as The Ventriloquist, who was a humble kids entertainer up until the point Gotham was consumed by the fear gas Ras Al Guhl and Scarecrow set loose on Gotham.

now residing in Arkham and slowly rehabilitating through the medium of carpentry, his mind begins to create the Scarface persona and he eventually manages somehow to break out of Arkham to seek out those who broke him, notably Scarecrow (as Ras Al Guhl is probably dead). along the way Scarface begins to take over and Wesker ends up in an unwanted life of crime, persued by Batman, The Mob and the police.

could be interesting, could make quite a layered character out of him...

 

[MadVillainy]

Both Black Mask and Catwoman (my choice for next villains) deal with the idea of reflections of Batman. Bruce chose to uses mask for good, Roman uses it for evil, and Selina doesn't care how she uses mask she's on as long as she gets a profit. SO my idea for a theme would be Reflecytions/Duality/Psychological/Physical Masks