Which plan was better: Nolan Joker vs MCU Zemo vs DCEU Luthor?

[Neil McCauley]

He didn't make Batman fall, though, he made Harvey fall and the movie is very clear on the fact that the two of them are emphatically not interchangeable. That's why Batman makes the switch in the first place - because taking the blame on himself is supposed to fundamentally neutralize anything Joker had achieved by making Harvey fall. Joker's achievement was to prove that 'the best of us' could fall, and you have to remember that in the world of these movies Batman is emphatically not considered 'the best of us', except by a small number of people like Commissioner Gordon, Alfred, Rachel Dawes, Lucius Fox, etc. To everyone else, he's a scary 'other', hard to understand and easy to write off (as shown by how they were so easily turned against him when Joker said he wanted the Batman).

In other words, 'the fall of Batman' is not an achievement for Joker at all. It doesn't prove in the slightest what Joker was trying to prove, and in fact, it completely undoes Joker's only real victory in the movie by hiding what happened to Dent. It is Batman's achievement in every way, not Joker's.

And, yes, I agree Joker's achievement does eventually come out when Bane reveals the truth, as I already mentioned. One can even argue the effect of it is part of what makes Bane's Gotham possible, which would mean Joker still got what he wanted in terms of smashing society even though it was eight years later.

But that still doesn't mean Joker's plan had some 8 year long lasting effect. It was just on ice for eight years and then Bane took it out of the closet. That's all.

Well he still did have that effect for Batman.

He did archieve he all of his 3 goals therefore he won, end of the story.

 

[Bayne]

Well he still did have that effect for Batman.

No, he didn't. Batman chose to do that specifically to stop Joker from winning. That's literally the whole point of the story.

He did archieve he all of his 3 goals therefore he won, end of the story.

Eight years later, when the truth came out, he won, yes, as I've already said. He was not winning for the whole eight years in between, which is the whole point I was talking about in the first place.

 

[Schlosser85]

The Joker doesn't win in TDK. Batman symbolically sacrifices himself as a last resort to thwart him from winning.

The Joker does succeed in bringing about Harvey's downfall, but Batman and Gordon covering it up and Batman taking the fall for it thwarts the larger purpose of that plan, which was to make the people of Gotham lose hope by showing them that their hero Harvey had ended up a psychopath on a murder spree.

Instead, Batman and Gordon preserve Harvey's legacy as a heroic martyr, the exact opposite of how The Joker wanted people to see him.

 

[Fosterson]

The Joker doesn't win in TDK. Batman symbolically sacrifices himself as a last resort to thwart him from winning.

The Joker does succeed in bringing about Harvey's downfall, but Batman and Gordon covering it up and Batman taking the fall for it thwarts the larger purpose of that plan, which was to make the people of Gotham lose hope by showing them that their hero Harvey had ended up a psychopath on a murder spree.

Instead, Batman and Gordon preserve Harvey's legacy as a heroic martyr, the exact opposite of how The Joker wanted people to see him.

Joker did win in TDKR though, when Bane exposed Gordon's lie and used it as a pretext for freeing all the prisoners in Blackgate.

 

[Neil McCauley]

No, he didn't. Batman chose to do that specifically to stop Joker from winning. That's literally the whole point of the story.



Eight years later, when the truth came out, he won, yes, as I've already said. He was not winning for the whole eight years in between, which is the whole point I was talking about in the first place.

He does win for the chaos stuff, and does win because he killed the Batman and made him fall and yeah 8 years later he does win again with the Harvey thing.

 

[Bayne]

He does win for the chaos stuff, and does win because he killed the Batman and made him fall and yeah 8 years later he does win again with the Harvey thing.

The chaos failed (that's the whole point of the ferry sequence), he still did not make the batman fall no matter how many times that's repeated, and no one killed Batman so I literally don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

Also, *no one* has disagreed that his plan was pulled out of the closet to eventual victory during TDKR so there is no need to keep repeating that over and over and over again.

And none of this changes my original point, which was that the 8 years between TDK and TDKR are void of any ongoing Joker victory.

 

[Neil McCauley]

It did work though, the hospital and major stuff did a lot to Gotham.

He did "kill" The Batman and make him fall actually.

I don't have anything to say here, The Joker pretty much won.

 

[The Joker]

Batman won but it came at a heavy price. They managed to preserve Dent's legacy, save Gotham, but Batman became a hated fugitive, and Gordon had to compromise himself and cover up what Dent did. Plus both Harvey and Rachel died.

But that's what happens when Batman faces the Joker. Nolan wouldn't have done his job right if it had been a clean cut victory with no casualties or consequences.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Batman won but it came at a heavy price. They managed to preserve Dent's legacy, save Gotham, but Batman became a hated fugitive, and Gordon had to compromise himself and cover up what Dent did. Plus both Harvey and Rachel died.

But that's what happens when Batman faces the Joker. Nolan wouldn't have done his job right if it had been a clean cut victory with no casualties or consequences.

Batman certainly did not win, but I don't think the Joker did either except a small victory imo.

1. Corrupt Harvey Dent:
   
   
2. Took over the mob
   
   
3. Corrupted Batman's image and what he stood for to the people of Gotham
   

4. Gotham sees Batman the same way the see Joker: A freak. They need him now, but when they don't.......

5. Terrorized the entire city in multiple ways.

I'd say Joker pretty much accomplished everything and also did 100% win in TDKR aswell.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

The Joker did not win. He wanted to plunge Gotham into chaos and show that everyone can become like him. That didn't happen for more than one person and that was kept silent, and Gotham kept going like it had before. That Bane uncovered the lie is more a win for Bane since it doesn't retroactively make Gotham have descended into chaos.

Zemo came closer since part of his desire came to be in that the Avengers disbanded, but they didn't completely fall like wanted so it's still not a win (The Avengers aren't really fighting him either, it's a story with several linked aspects). Likely part of why he doesn't attempt another suicide but actually turns into a proper supervillain (as I assume he does in Falcon and Winter Soldier, although not in the power sense of course).

When it comes to supervillains winning it's still about Thanos in IW. That was an unquestionable win, and it's of course very impactful since the formula is that the hero wins at the end, not just in superhero stories.

 

[Neil McCauley]

No, I disagree but coming from someone with bias, I can't expect much. No offense intended.

Also, he did show Harvey was in that sense, creates chaos yeah he did that and make Batman fall. He accomplished more than Batman in the movie, that’s a win.

Zemo's definitely a small term win also.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Zemo came closer since part of his desire came to be in that the Avengers disbanded, but they didn't completely fall like wanted so it's still not a win

They did though. The Avengers were done. It was only Thanos that eventually brought them back together out of necessity.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Also, *no one* has disagreed that his plan was pulled out of the closet to eventual victory during TDKR so there is no need to keep repeating that over and over and over again.

I find it difficult to even count that. It really didn't change anything. Bane had already taken over Gotham. That was just a token excuse Bane used in public for some of his actions. Bane didn't actually give a crap about it. He was going to blow up the city anyways. Something that was in the works years before Joker was even around.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Joker, and it's not close. He's the only one of the three who is really important to his movie. While "causing chaos" seems weak on paper, that's really an oversimplification of his goals. He wanted to strip away the societal supports and psychological barriers of the human mind. He wanted to prove that each person's motivation was animalistic. He thought morality was an illusion and only self-preservation was reality when circumstances became dire enough.

Lex stoked the fires a little. I'll give him that, but we saw at the start of the film that Bruce had already made his decision about Superman. Likewise, we saw Clark gradually become convinced that Bruce's methods couldn't be considered justice. Lex's only necessary function was his failsafe activation of Doomsday. However, there were other ways that this could have been written, so I wouldn't put his presence in BvS anywhere near that of Joker.

Zemo...ugh...don't get me started about how bad this INO was. Instead of the brutal, well-trained legacy villain that he should have been, we got an off-screen, stock motivation. Then Sokovia Joe takes up screen time with a needlessly convoluted, but completely unnecessary, plan to turn the Avengers against one another when they were not only having a dispute over the Accords, but Bucky's previously established past would have been an organic way to reach the film's climax. Sokovia Joe lifts right out of this story, and even worse, T'Chaka was killed by something that had nothing to do with Wakanda or any Black Panther characters. As great as Civil War was, I'm still baffled by this botch by Marvel Studios. I'm hopeful that the new Disney series does plenty of damage control with *BARON* Zemo.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Joker, and it's not close. He's the only one of the three who is really important to his movie. While "causing chaos" seems weak on paper, that's really an oversimplification of his goals. He wanted to strip away the societal supports and psychological barriers of the human mind. He wanted to prove that each person's motivation was animalistic. He thought morality was an illusion and only self-preservation was reality when circumstances became dire enough.

Lex stoked the fires a little. I'll give him that, but we saw at the start of the film that Bruce had already made his decision about Superman. Likewise, we saw Clark gradually become convinced that Bruce's methods couldn't be considered justice. Lex's only necessary function was his failsafe activation of Doomsday. However, there were other ways that this could have been written, so I wouldn't put his presence in BvS anywhere near that of Joker.

Zemo...ugh...don't get me started about how bad this INO was. Instead of the brutal, well-trained legacy villain that he should have been, we got an off-screen, stock motivation. Then Sokovia Joe takes up screen time with a needlessly convoluted, but completely unnecessary, plan to turn the Avengers against one another when they were not only having a dispute over the Accords, but Bucky's previously established past would have been an organic way to reach the film's climax. Sokovia Joe lifts right out of this story, and even worse, T'Chaka was killed by something that had nothing to do with Wakanda or any Black Panther characters. As great as Civil War was, I'm still baffled by this botch by Marvel Studios. I'm hopeful that the new Disney series does plenty of damage control with *BARON* Zemo.

I thought Zemo had a solid plan based on a personal loss, good acting, a great plan and did drive the story even though he did have luck and accords were a part of the conflict.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

They did though. The Avengers were done. It was only Thanos that eventually brought them back together out of necessity.

The Avengers as we knew them were done but the members were still active. Cap's team as an outlawed covert group and IM's side as members of the Accords. I think Zemo really wanted a more severe breakout, which might have happened had IM won and killed Bucky. Then again Zemo did everything he could possibly do so from that point he certainly accomplished his goal.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

No, I disagree but coming from someone with bias, I can't expect much. No offense intended.

Also, he did show Harvey was in that sense, creates chaos yeah he did that and make Batman fall. He accomplished more than Batman in the movie, that’s a win.

Zemo's definitely a small term win also.

Everyone have their biases. The only difference between us is that you're apparently not aware of yours and that you can't handle differing opinions well enough not to try to resort to childish jabs.

 

[fan4stic]

Not DCEU Lex.

I think Joker's and Zemo's plan is different from Lex, in that, in spite of what I think some may think, Zemo, for instance, doesn't plan a lot of what happens in the movie. I think he has a fairly simple plan all things considered:

Decrypt or whatever the dumped shield/hydra files.

Get the book.

Frame Winter Soldier.

Get mission report from Winter Soldier.

Get tape of Starks getting killed.

Profit?

Anything else I think is basically incidental. I think the movie is vague enough about his plan, that I think he may have basically intended to get the tape and send it to Tony. And when Steve, Bucky and Tony arrived, he used that to his advantage. It's fair if you think that's forced.

Joker, again while I think it's fair if you viewed this as forced as well, in some aspects, I think doesn't have laid out specific plans. As an example, I think when Joker puts the gun in Harvey's hand and puts it to his head, he's not doing it with the certainty Harvey won't shoot him.

With DCEU Lex, I feel like I'm supposed to think that Lex somehow knew that all these characters would react in these exact ways to get this outcome. He knew somehow that Batman would hate Superman for Metropolis, that he'd be looking for the kryptonite to get it before it was even taken out of the ocean, that taking Wally's severance checks or whatever and writing you let your family die would cause him to fly into a rage and steal the kryptonite and want to kill Superman, that by hiring prisoners to kill people Batman has branded and I guess sending those photos to Superman that he would for some reason go after Batman, and that Batman would set up the bat signal to call Superman to him. Some, and I do mean some of this I can think is cool. Others, I think is dumb.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Everyone have their biases. The only difference between us is that you're apparently not aware of yours and that you can't handle differing opinions well enough not to try to resort to childish jabs.

I am biased? Yeah, for having Civil War in my top 4 CBMs of all time and defending Zemo's plan there? You can go at the first message and look that

The difference is that the same way I defend Zemo's plan with my honest thoughts, I do the same for Joker's plan which has a solid foundation to work.

I can handle different opinions, but when I read some argument that looks biased or not logical I pointed out why they are wrong (in my opinion).

I'm talking about your jabs over TDK or TDKR in nearly every thread I have seen.

You did that in the other thread aswell, regarding Logan and Begins with nonsensical arguments.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I am biased? Yeah, for having Civil War in my top 4 CBMs of all time and defending Zemo's plan there? You can go at the first message and look that

The difference is that the same way I defend Zemo's plan with my honest thoughts, I do the same for Joker's plan which has a solid foundation to work.

I can handle different opinions, but when I read some argument that looks biased or not logical I pointed out why they are wrong (in my opinion).

I'm talking about your jabs over TDK or TDKR in nearly every thread I have seen.

Everyone are biased because we're discussing something subjective. It's when you try to use bias to skew objective matters that it's a problem, which is not the case here.

I said both Joker and Zemo failed to get a real win so no difference there either. Whether they win has nothing to do with being good or bad either.

No, you obviously can't handle it at all as this is the second time you've resorted to ad hominem arguments instead of just discussing the topic, and I've seen you do the same thing to others. I have no interest in partaking in such things.

 

[Neil McCauley]

Everyone are biased because we're discussing something subjective. It's when you try to use bias to skew objective matters that it's a problem, which is not the case here.

I said both Joker and Zemo failed to get a real win so no difference there either. Whether they win has nothing to do with being good or bad either.

No, you obviously can't handle it at all as this is the second time you've resorted to ad hominem arguments instead of just discussing the topic, and I've seen you do the same thing to others. I have no interest in partaking in such things.

That's exactly what matters here, you are going out of your way to make the MCU look good (I love the MCU) while stepping on anything good that I have to say about The Dark Knight movie or Joker's plan. A movie that was obviously very good.
And stop saying what I do or I don't, all I said was my opinion there even whilst subjective.

Both won, but I'm pretty sure we can just agree to disagree. I'm done.

 

[thangaran]

Fantastic question!! Never thought about this one so it’s really interesting. I think Zemo got closest in his plans but the best performance was DCEU Lex. Lex also gets bonus points for getting someone to drink his grandmum’s tangy peach tea

 

[Fosterson]

Not DCEU Lex.

I think Joker's and Zemo's plan is different from Lex, in that, in spite of what I think some may think, Zemo, for instance, doesn't plan a lot of what happens in the movie. I think he has a fairly simple plan all things considered.

This is correct. I think a major reason why people think Zemo's plan makes no sense is that they think his plan depended on the Sokovia Accords, when in actuality it had nothing to do with them. Was it beneficial to Zemo that the Accords meant the Avengers were already at odds even before he framed Bucky for the bombing? Sure, but it still wasn't integral to his overall plan.

 

[Neil McCauley]

This is correct. I think a major reason why people think Zemo's plan makes no sense is that they think his plan depended on the Sokovia Accords, when in actuality it had nothing to do with them. Was it beneficial to Zemo that the Accords meant the Avengers were already at odds even before he framed Bucky for the bombing? Sure, but it still wasn't integral to his overall plan.

His plan works because he does act after the accords, I am pretty sure the timing was just done well. Not a flaw.

Fantastic question!! Never thought about this one so it’s really interesting. I think Zemo got closest in his plans but the best performance was DCEU Lex. Lex also gets bonus points for getting someone to drink his grandmum’s tangy peach tea

Lex had a better performance than Ledger's Joker?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The Avengers as we knew them were done but the members were still active. Cap's team as an outlawed covert group and IM's side as members of the Accords. I think Zemo really wanted a more severe breakout, which might have happened had IM won and killed Bucky. Then again Zemo did everything he could possibly do so from that point he certainly accomplished his goal.

They were active, but a good portion of them were forced underground and declared outlaws. Tony and Cap never really did reconcile until shortly before Tony's death almost a decade later. That's pretty substantial and subsequent films showed that the impact was greater than I think most of us expected even at the end of Civil War, when I think the general thought among fans was that it was a minor setback and they'd just get back together at the beginning of the next film. Heck, a big part of the reason Thanos won in infinity War was because they weren't united in that movie to fight him together. And Zemo was the reason for that.

One thing I liked about Zemo's plan is that it was relatively simple and didn't completely rely on a bunch of coincidences. This gave him flexibility when things went wrong. His Plan A didn't work, so he was able to pivot to Plan B. All he really needed was to get to Siberia to get the tape of Bucky killing the Starks, and make sure Tony saw it. That's it. He wasn't totally dependent on 50 steps that all had to go perfectly.