Which plan was better: Nolan Joker vs MCU Zemo vs DCEU Luthor?

[Kahran Ramsus]

This is correct. I think a major reason why people think Zemo's plan makes no sense is that they think his plan depended on the Sokovia Accords, when in actuality it had nothing to do with them. Was it beneficial to Zemo that the Accords meant the Avengers were already at odds even before he framed Bucky for the bombing? Sure, but it still wasn't integral to his overall plan.

The real break wasn't because of the Accords. Tony was even starting to come around to Cap's side, which is why he went to Siberia to try and find out the truth about the bombing together with him. It was finding out that Bucky killed his parents and that Cap knew that and hid the truth from him that caused Stark to snap.

 

[thangaran]

His plan works because he does act after the accords, I am pretty sure the timing was just done well. Not a flaw.



Lex had a better performance than Ledger's Joker?

I did at least. It was a vastly unique spin on Lex and I loved his speed talking eccentric type personality. I like seeing things turned on their heads and while I loved Ledger as the Joker, his take was more expected and not too surprising for me. Lex’s characterization towards the end of BVS signaled his transition into complete evil and he was more commanding. I would have loved to seen his take go further but doesn’t seem we will ever get that now.

 

[Neil McCauley]

I did at least. It was a vastly unique spin on Lex and I loved his speed talking eccentric type personality. I like seeing things turned on their heads and while I loved Ledger as the Joker, his take was more expected and not too surprising for me. Lex’s characterization towards the end of BVS signaled his transition into complete evil and he was more commanding. I would have loved to seen his take go further but doesn’t seem we will ever get that now.

Strong disagree.

 

[fan4stic]

A unique spin on Lex includes the character acting crazy?

 

[Lantern Venom]

I thought Zemo had a solid plan based on a personal loss, good acting, a great plan and did drive the story even though he did have luck and accords were a part of the conflict.

I just don't see how any of his backstory made sense. Other than being a death squad soldier, he was able to do far too many nonsensical things. Somehow he managed to find Bucky's old handler (how exactly?), he knew how to take an old Hydra manual and activate the Winter Soldier programming. This was in the files that Black Widow leaked? And a Sokovian soldier was able to download and read (or decrypt?) all of these before the American government can control this information?

He's also a master of disguise...because...they teach that to all soldiers in the EKO Scorpion? And he was able to make his disguise so effective that it fooled investigators and police from multiple countries, again with no particular resources that were even mentioned. He builds a device that discharges a massive EMP because he learned this...in a covert kill squad? He's able to impersonate a psychiatrist (and this raised no eyebrows?) and somehow knew exactly where Bucky would be taken.

Along the way, he has to hope that Captain America and Iron Man are mad at one another and *stay* mad, because if Cap comes clean with Tony or if Bucky sends Tony Stark a letter expressing remorse, then going to a Siberian Hydra facility (again, what kind of knowledge and resources does he have to do this?!) is a waste of time. And even though he can control Bucky, he'd just rather hope that the Avengers would kill one another (because heroes do that all of the time?) rather than ambush them with a team of Winter Soldiers.

Uh.....

 

[Neil McCauley]

I just don't see how any of his backstory made sense. Other than being a death squad soldier, he was able to do far too many nonsensical things. Somehow he managed to find Bucky's old handler (how exactly?), he knew how to take an old Hydra manual and activate the Winter Soldier programming. This was in the files that Black Widow leaked? And a Sokovian soldier was able to download and read (or decrypt?) all of these before the American government can control this information?

He's also a master of disguise...because...they teach that to all soldiers in the EKO Scorpion? And he was able to make his disguise so effective that it fooled investigators and police from multiple countries, again with no particular resources that were even mentioned. He builds a device that discharges a massive EMP because he learned this...in a covert kill squad? He's able to impersonate a psychiatrist (and this raised no eyebrows?) and somehow knew exactly where Bucky would be taken.

Along the way, he has to hope that Captain America and Iron Man are mad at one another and *stay* mad, because if Cap comes clean with Tony or if Bucky sends Tony Stark a letter expressing remorse, then going to a Siberian Hydra facility (again, what kind of knowledge and resources does he have to do this?!) is a waste of time. And even though he can control Bucky, he'd just rather hope that the Avengers would kill one another (because heroes do that all of the time?) rather than ambush them with a team of Winter Soldiers.

Uh.....

His plan was to trigger Bucky so Cap would get his side, get the book and show it to Tony.

he has an understandable motivation, but Joker's more complex and more villanish motivation.

Also, he did dig there in crypted files, opened the book and saw the commands for the soldiers and time the EMP so he could get away and talk with Bucky.

Also, he does time the psychiatrist thing based off his knowledge of the avengers, and also goes there with the ID, and people saw where t Challa was going, this made the news man. Everything is logical because people don’t know who he was, therefore with glasses, ID and camera being off, he managed to get away and people didn’t find out about him.

Ross was focused on the accords and tony wasn’t sure about him being the mastermind before the airport fight.

 

[Lantern Venom]

His plan was to trigger Bucky so Cap would get his side, get the book and show it to Tony.

he has an understandable motivation, but Joker's more complex and more villanish motivation.

Also, he did dig there in crypted files, opened the book and saw the commands for the soldiers and time the EMP so he could get away and talk with Bucky.

Also, he does time the psychiatrist thing based off his knowledge of the avengers, and also goes there with the ID, and people saw where t Challa was going, this made the news man. Everything is logical because people don’t know who he was, therefore with glasses, ID and camera being off, he managed to get away and people didn’t find out about him.

Ross was focused on the accords and tony wasn’t sure about him being the mastermind before the airport fight.

So how exactly did he find information in encrypted files? Those files were still out there on the internet between TWS and AoU, so soldier from another country could access them and go through (thousands? millions ? ) of Hydra files to activate the Winter Soldier? Even though Sokovia Joe would have had no way of knowing where Bucky was or if he'd been killed during the Hydra TWS attack?

And the psychiatrist story point is laughable. There are a laws (HIPAA, HITECH) that make mental health professionals accountable for every move that they make. Trying to access any patient, let alone an international criminal, without making face-to-face contact with dozens of people who would have known the actual psychiatrist would be impossible.

Also, explain to me again how he found the means to get to Siberia?

And he learned all of these skills, as implausible as they are, while also learning how to set off an EMP and becoming a master of disguise...in EKO Scorpion? And then he employed this plan on his own? Sorry, that's ridiculous, even for this type of movie.

Had he had his comics background where he would have grown up around nefarious science knowledge and had the planning tutledge of his father , then I could have bought some of what he was able to pull off in CA:CW. But this INO version was as disposable as a character gets.

And as if that weren't bad enough, he tried to committ suicide.

 

[thangaran]

Lex is arguably the more successful in a way in that his actions actually resulted in the death of the most powerful superhero on earth, despite problematic story beats. In the other ones, no hero died. They either went their own ways or had to escape the city and retire. Lex’s plans though weren’t written very well in the movie though

 

[Neil McCauley]

So how exactly did he find information in encrypted files? Those files were still out there on the internet between TWS and AoU, so soldier from another country could access them and go through (thousands? millions ? ) of Hydra files to activate the Winter Soldier? Even though Sokovia Joe would have had no way of knowing where Bucky was or if he'd been killed during the Hydra TWS attack?

And the psychiatrist story point is laughable. There are a laws (HIPAA, HITECH) that make mental health professionals accountable for every move that they make. Trying to access any patient, let alone an international criminal, without making face-to-face contact with dozens of people who would have known the actual psychiatrist would be impossible.

Also, explain to me again how he found the means to get to Siberia?

And he learned all of these skills, as implausible as they are, while also learning how to set off an EMP and becoming a master of disguise...in EKO Scorpion? And then he employed this plan on his own? Sorry, that's ridiculous, even for this type of movie.

Had he had his comics background where he would have grown up around nefarious science knowledge and had the planning tutledge of his father , then I could have bought some of what he was able to pull off in CA:CW. But this INO version was as disposable as a character gets.

And as if that weren't bad enough, he tried to committ suicide.

Everything is explained there.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Everything is explained there.

That doesn't explain how a soldier transformed into a supervillain with unlimited resources. By replacing Zemo with Sokovia Joe, it undercut any authenticity that the character had. There is absolutely no way that a single person, no matter how naturally bright he may be, could have pulled off a convoluted plan like the one in Civil War without a massive amount of diverse training and a small fortune.

Also, it still had to rely on the Avengers and Bucky not confronting their problem prior to Siberia. It made no sense at all. There were so many superior ways that Zemo could have to introduced. One simple flashback scene with Zemo getting his face scarred by Adhesive X in a fight with Cap and there would have been a perfectly plausible story point for Zemo trying to take down the Avengers.

 

[fan4stic]

Also, it still had to rely on the Avengers and Bucky not confronting their problem prior to Siberia. It made no sense at all.

Why does Zemo getting the tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents rely on that? I don't assume that Zemo ultimately planned, as a whole, or even really needed Tony and Steve and Bucky to be there.

One simple flashback scene with Zemo getting his face scarred by Adhesive X in a fight with Cap and there would have been a perfectly plausible story point for Zemo trying to take down the Avengers.

What does that have to do with the consequences of the Avengers actions in collateral damage? I prefer the dead family angle, for the most part.

 

[Neil McCauley]

That doesn't explain how a soldier transformed into a supervillain with unlimited resources. By replacing Zemo with Sokovia Joe, it undercut any authenticity that the character had. There is absolutely no way that a single person, no matter how naturally bright he may be, could have pulled off a convoluted plan like the one in Civil War without a massive amount of diverse training and a small fortune.

Also, it still had to rely on the Avengers and Bucky not confronting their problem prior to Siberia. It made no sense at all. There were so many superior ways that Zemo could have to introduced. One simple flashback scene with Zemo getting his face scarred by Adhesive X in a fight with Cap and there would have been a perfectly plausible story point for Zemo trying to take down the Avengers.

he has some luck and resources and times stuff well. A believeable and good plan

 

[Lantern Venom]

Why does Zemo getting the tape of Bucky killing Tony's parents rely on that? I don't assume that Zemo ultimately planned, as a whole, or even really needed Tony and Steve and Bucky to be there.What does that have to do with the consequences of the Avengers actions in collateral damage? I prefer the dead family angle, for the most part.

If Bucky had asked Steve to apologize to Tony, or done it in some form himself, after the events of the Winter Soldier, it would have negated Zemo's ace-in-the-hole. Steve would have had time to convince Tony that it was Hydra's programming, not actually Bucky's doing.

And while we're on the subject of the VHS tape, there was a surveillance camera on a back road in 1991? Um...highly unlikely. I have no idea why Marvel Studios decided to pull this Sokovia Joe backstory out of thin air instead of giving Zemo a proper origin because the details are just laughable.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

If Bucky had asked Steve to apologize to Tony, or done it in some form himself, after the events of the Winter Soldier, it would have negated Zemo's ace-in-the-hole. Steve would have had time to convince Tony that it was Hydra's programming, not actually Bucky's doing.

And while we're on the subject of the VHS tape, there was a surveillance camera on a back road in 1991? Um...highly unlikely. I have no idea why Marvel Studios decided to pull this Sokovia Joe backstory out of thin air instead of giving Zemo a proper origin because the details are just laughable.

Bucky is broken and hasn't contacted anyone, including Steve, because he hasn't forgiven himself, neither wants to get caught nor bring his crimes down on anyone he cares about, and he knows he can still be a danger to people if the wrong people catch him. That's the entire point of the tragedy of Bucky so I don't see why that should be changed. During the events of CW Bucky is on the run or put opposite IM to support Cap, which seems like a very dumb time to approach Tony about forgiveness for something he doesn't even know about.

As for the surveillance camera it wasn't just a random camera on a road, it was clearly set at the entrance to some place that wants to keep people out, given that it had a barbed wire fence.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Bucky is broken and hasn't contacted anyone, including Steve, because he hasn't forgiven himself, neither wants to get caught nor bring his crimes down on anyone he cares about, and he knows he can still be a danger to people if the wrong people catch him. That's the entire point of the tragedy of Bucky so I don't see why that should be changed. During the events of CW Bucky is on the run or put opposite IM to support Cap, which seems like a very dumb time to approach Tony about forgiveness for something he doesn't even know about.

As for the surveillance camera it wasn't just a random camera on a road, it was clearly set at the entrance to some place that wants to keep people out, given that it had a barbed wire fence.

Bucky said, "I remember them all." (Or something close) He clearly felt remorse, so it wouldn't have been a stretch for him to seek forgiveness from Tony. It *was* a stretch to have Steven keeping that secret from Tony. It was dishonest, which was out of character for Cap.

And you want to believe that Hydra can track the movements of the Starks, but they send Bucky to commit murder in front of the one inexplicably stationed surveillance camera? Not a great plan.

 

[fan4stic]

And you want to believe that Hydra can track the movements of the Starks, but they send Bucky to commit murder in front of the one inexplicably stationed surveillance camera? Not a great plan.

Considering they seem to have gotten the tape, them having them killed in front of a camera isn't much of a problem for them.

If Bucky had asked Steve to apologize to Tony, or done it in some form himself, after the events of the Winter Soldier, it would have negated Zemo's ace-in-the-hole. Steve would have had time to convince Tony that it was Hydra's programming, not actually Bucky's doing.

And while we're on the subject of the VHS tape, there was a surveillance camera on a back road in 1991? Um...highly unlikely. I have no idea why Marvel Studios decided to pull this Sokovia Joe backstory out of thin air instead of giving Zemo a proper origin because the details are just laughable.

If Bucky had asked that and Steve had done that, but that didn't happen. And Zemo has no way of knowing that either way, as far as I think.

I think your issues with the Zemo backstory are more based on believability. If we're talking believability, with things that I think aren't leaps really in big things:

Having the ability to decrypt or whatever files.

The ability to track down a Hydra agent.

The ability to buy an EMP.

Identity fraud.

I think the backstory you suggested doesn't have real relevance to the overall story you suggested.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Bucky said, "I remember them all." (Or something close) He clearly felt remorse, so it wouldn't have been a stretch for him to seek forgiveness from Tony. It *was* a stretch to have Steven keeping that secret from Tony. It was dishonest, which was out of character for Cap.

And you want to believe that Hydra can track the movements of the Starks, but they send Bucky to commit murder in front of the one inexplicably stationed surveillance camera? Not a great plan.

Why respond if you're just going to ignore most of what I wrote? I talked about how he felt guilt and then put it in the rest of the context as to why he was hiding, which you ignored. You also ignored what I wrote about the timing of bringing it up when they are fighting against IM. Cap didn't know Bucky killed the Starks, he just knew that they were murdered. I don't see it out of his character to not wanting to tear up old wounds in a friend that had managed to move on, as there was no closure to be had (until they both found out it was Bucky, or rather The Winter Soldier), but you're free to disagree there.

How is it inexplicably stationed when I gave you a reason? You could at least comment on that instead of, again, ignoring it. I don't think it was a plan to do it there, it was just a dramatic coincidence so there would be video evidence instead of just a written report.

I don't have any issues with you not liking any aspect of the film, or the film itself, but it seems pointless to talk if we don't both address the things the other says.

 

[Batmannerism]

That doesn't explain how a soldier transformed into a supervillain with unlimited resources. By replacing Zemo with Sokovia Joe, it undercut any authenticity that the character had. There is absolutely no way that a single person, no matter how naturally bright he may be, could have pulled off a convoluted plan like the one in Civil War without a massive amount of diverse training and a small fortune.

Also, it still had to rely on the Avengers and Bucky not confronting their problem prior to Siberia. It made no sense at all. There were so many superior ways that Zemo could have to introduced. One simple flashback scene with Zemo getting his face scarred by Adhesive X in a fight with Cap and there would have been a perfectly plausible story point for Zemo trying to take down the Avengers.

I disagree with your assertion that he had unlimited resources. If anything he travels by very ordinary means, including rented snowcat, he probably flew coach. Those little moments, like seeing him in a hotel room practicing his Russian pronunciation, show that he's absolutely not a supervillain in the conventional sense.

As far as training goes, he needed serious cryptology skills, explosives skills, disguise skills but what else ? He's not a ninja, just a guy with a prosthetic mask. To me it doesn't seem too outlandish.

The EMP was clearly homemade, and delivered by courier - how simple and ordinary.

For me the everyman nature of Zemo made him so compelling - and Daniel Bruhl's understated performance really struck a chord with me.

I do think Zemo's plan did rely on things happening in a very particular order - but at the same time, once he recovered the fact from the Hydra files that Bucky killed the Starks, he had the leverage he needed to tear down Steve and Tony's relationship- which was the heart of the Avengers.

I agree that there were probably easier ways to release that information.

The Avengers and Bucky were never going to confront "the problem" before the Siberian showdown, because Bucky was in hiding ( given that law enforcement agencies had a standing kill order for him) he was never going to confront the issue - Tony and Steve had other things to do in the meantime, and while Steve knew about the murder he couldn't bear to come clean with Tony because he knew that Tony would react badly ( who wouldn't?) and Steve confesses in the film that he knew he was really sparing himself - for me it was good to see Cap as human, and fallible, rather than inhumanly honest and forthright.

To me , the one bit I find very convenient is Zemo's ability to get in and out of the German security facility without being detected, while disguised as the Swiss psychiatrist. That seems a bit slack, in terms of their security. Also, he would need in depth knowledge of their layout and procedures- which would be hard to come by.

He also has to time the EMP explosion at just the right time ( during his interview with Bucky), not impossible but pretty intolerant of error.

The one really odd bit of timing is how Bucky and Steve leave Leipzig in a quinjet and head straight for Siberia , while Tony takes a detour to Avengers HQ and the raft and then still manages to arrive at the missile silo only minutes after Bucky and Steve. Unless Quintets fly really slow ( and Tony's flying at about Mach 5, who knows maybe he can ?) that doesn't seem possible.

Anyway, you've clearly stated your view and I respectfully disagree.Let's all move on from there.
Cheers.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Why respond if you're just going to ignore most of what I wrote? I talked about how he felt guilt and then put it in the rest of the context as to why he was hiding, which you ignored. You also ignored what I wrote about the timing of bringing it up when they are fighting against IM. Cap didn't know Bucky killed the Starks, he just knew that they were murdered. I don't see it out of his character to not wanting to tear up old wounds in a friend that had managed to move on, as there was no closure to be had (until they both found out it was Bucky, or rather The Winter Soldier), but you're free to disagree there.

How is it inexplicably stationed when I gave you a reason? You could at least comment on that instead of, again, ignoring it. I don't think it was a plan to do it there, it was just a dramatic coincidence so there would be video evidence instead of just a written report.

I don't have any issues with you not liking any aspect of the film, or the film itself, but it seems pointless to talk if we don't both address the things the other says.

Exactly..a dramatic coincidence and a plot hole. I've lived in both cities and small towns. Surveillance equipment is still extremely rare on desolate roads, and it would have been nearly unheard of in terms of a regular person wanting to guard a building in 1991. Conversely, if it was a building of some importance, then it makes Hydra's choice for the hit spot even more ridiculous. That part was bad writing because Zemo's back story was so utterly screwed up.

This isn't to say that I disliked Civil War. To the contrary, it's still in my top 5 CBMs. I could write volumes on what it did correctly. I also like Baron Zemo, and those are the two primary reasons that I disliked that aspect of the film so much. A story based around the SHRA did need the baggage of a leftover story point from Sokovia. What "Zemo" did could have been executed more believably by Crossbones. Instead Marvel Studios decided to name drop one of Cap's top villains while only delivering a suicidal INO. I had similar criticisms of Iron Man 3's " Mandarin." The times that the MCU has been at it's worst are when it's strayed too far from it's comic roots. Obviously, I'm not the only person who feels this way since Marvel Studios is trying to do damage control by making Zemo (I hope, at least) more like the awesome character that he should have been.

 

[Batmannerism]

Exactly..a dramatic coincidence and a plot hole. I've lived in both cities and small towns. Surveillance equipment is still extremely rare on desolate roads, and it would have been nearly unheard of in terms of a regular person wanting to guard a building in 1991. Conversely, if it was a building of some importance, then it makes Hydra's choice for the hit spot even more ridiculous. That part was bad writing because Zemo's back story was so utterly screwed up.

This isn't to say that I disliked Civil War. To the contrary, it's still in my top 5 CBMs. I could write volumes on what it did correctly. I also like Baron Zemo, and those are the two primary reasons that I disliked that aspect of the film so much. A story based around the SHRA did need the baggage of a leftover story point from Sokovia. What "Zemo" did could have been executed more believably by Crossbones. Instead Marvel Studios decided to name drop one of Cap's top villains while only delivering a suicidal INO. I had similar criticisms of Iron Man 3's " Mandarin." The times that the MCU has been at it's worst are when it's strayed too far from it's comic roots. Obviously, I'm not the only person who feels this way since Marvel Studios is trying to do damage control by making Zemo (I hope, at least) more like the awesome character that he should have been.

Interesting. I suppose the camera placement for the Stark's murder is a bit convenient- ( and also, you think that a guy whose MO is stealth and escaping detention would have disabled the camera first, before killing the Starks).

A fundamental point we disagree on is the character concept of Zemo, and you're right that he's Zemo in name only in the film. Honestly, that version works better for me. I have always thought that the Zemo costume from the comics looks like what Elton John would wear if he joined the KKK.

Well, again, agree to disagree, cheers.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Exactly..a dramatic coincidence and a plot hole. I've lived in both cities and small towns. Surveillance equipment is still extremely rare on desolate roads, and it would have been nearly unheard of in terms of a regular person wanting to guard a building in 1991. Conversely, if it was a building of some importance, then it makes Hydra's choice for the hit spot even more ridiculous. That part was bad writing because Zemo's back story was so utterly screwed up.

This isn't to say that I disliked Civil War. To the contrary, it's still in my top 5 CBMs. I could write volumes on what it did correctly. I also like Baron Zemo, and those are the two primary reasons that I disliked that aspect of the film so much. A story based around the SHRA did need the baggage of a leftover story point from Sokovia. What "Zemo" did could have been executed more believably by Crossbones. Instead Marvel Studios decided to name drop one of Cap's top villains while only delivering a suicidal INO. I had similar criticisms of Iron Man 3's " Mandarin." The times that the MCU has been at it's worst are when it's strayed too far from it's comic roots. Obviously, I'm not the only person who feels this way since Marvel Studios is trying to do damage control by making Zemo (I hope, at least) more like the awesome character that he should have been.

I'd say that there is a camera there isn't a plot hole but rather a plot convenience. The issue is rather the one you later touch on, that Bucky didn't choose his spot more carefully. It doesn't change anything in the plot since it's just there to bring in something visual for Zemo to show instead of a written record, which works better on film, but they could certainly have set it up better anyway.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to state what you think of the film, I was just saying that I have no issues with whatever your opinion is and that I only spoke about the disconnect between what was said. Personally I liked what they did with Zemo and his emotional ties to the Avengers. I don't have any issues with his capabilities as he was both a Sokovian intelligence officer and the head of a secret military death squad unit, so his mix of both intelligence and military competence seems ideal for what he becomes. He is of course different from the comics, but so are even some main Avengers (not as fundamentally, but it affects more when it's the main characters) so I've been pretty open-minded about change in that regard there, plus I don't really have any strong ties to the comic Zemo which probably helps as well. That said I am intrigued by how they'll move him closer to the comic version in the Falcon and the Winter Soldier show, as he's obviously at least closer in appearance from what we've seen. I hope it changes to something you like more.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I'd say that there is a camera there isn't a plot hole but rather a plot convenience. The issue is rather the one you later touch on, that Bucky didn't choose his spot more carefully. It doesn't change anything in the plot since it's just there to bring in something visual for Zemo to show instead of a written record, which works better on film, but they could certainly have set it up better anyway.

Exactly. The video is for our (the audience's) benefit because film is a visual medium and it is more effective seeing it than a bunch of documents leaked on the Internet. Zemo didn't strictly need a video to have proof. He just needed the Hydra records of the assignment.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

To me , the one bit I find very convenient is Zemo's ability to get in and out of the German security facility without being detected, while disguised as the Swiss psychiatrist. That seems a bit slack, in terms of their security. Also, he would need in depth knowledge of their layout and procedures- which would be hard to come by.

I wouldn't call that convenient. Difficult, yes. Risky, definitely. There is a reason he only resorts to this when his considerably less dangerous plans fail. But the things he does is at least plausible with enough intelligence, training, and effort. It doesn't depend on events completely outside of his control.

Compare that to The Joker's plan to infiltrate the GCPD, have Batman barely save Dent, kidnap Lau, and escape. If just one person doesn't act in the very specific way Joker wants, then he's screwed.

 

[Batmannerism]

I wouldn't call that convenient. Difficult, yes. Risky, definitely. There is a reason he only resorts to this when his considerably less dangerous plans fail. But the things he does is at least plausible with enough intelligence, training, and effort. It doesn't depend on events completely outside of his control.

Compare that to The Joker's plan to infiltrate the GCPD, have Batman barely save Dent, kidnap Lau, and escape. If just one person doesn't act in the very specific way Joker wants, then he's screwed.

Well I agree that Zemo's infiltration plan is plausible - but you would think that a facility where super dangerous rogue assassins are kept would have better security. If one guard had been suspicious when Zemo turned up, it was game over - or at least he'd have to wait for another opportunity to interrogate Bucky, although depending on how extradition had worked out, that could have been tough.

With the Joker's plan, it does rely on a lot of things going his way - although he has one advantage that Zemo doesn't: Maroni's moles inside GCP , Ramirez and Wurtz ( who got him into the Wayne party) that would have provided him with a lot of Intel of the layout and procedures at MCU. I find it a bit of a stretch that the Joker is the only person not incapacitated by the explosion ( when his goon blows up inside the cells) but the Joker always has pretty heavy plot armour ( until his final confrontation scene ) so that's not unusual for the characters ( so, while it doesn't make sense it's still not that hard to accept IMO).

 

[Fosterson]

Well I agree that Zemo's infiltration plan is plausible - but you would think that a facility where super dangerous rogue assassins are kept would have better security. If one guard had been suspicious when Zemo turned up, it was game over - or at least he'd have to wait for another opportunity to interrogate Bucky, although depending on how extradition had worked out, that could have been tough.
.

Given Zemo's history as an intelligence operative, it would make sense for him to be good at infiltration and putting up a convincing front. It's likely he also had some sort of official identification card or papers (which he could have easily forged from Broussard's - the real psychiatrist - own documents). Zemo probably told the Taskforce that he was an associate of Broussard's and that he was taking over the examination of Bucky due to Broussard falling ill or something. And if he had all the right documentation, then it's not implausible that they would wave him through.

And as for him escaping, you have to remember the facility was in chaos. The lights were out, Bucky was on the loose and the building was being evacuated. The idea that Zemo simply mingled in with the crowd is perfectly reasonable IMO.