Cinematic Civil War (Galactic Edition): MCU vs Star Wars

[Skrilla31]

I think there's an argument to be made both ways about how the best of each franchise stacks up against one another, but I think it goes without saying that Marvel has never produced anything near as heinous as TPM and AoTC.

I wouldn't put the best MCU movies anywhere near the best SW movies.

Having said that I think the MCU is going to win in the end. They have a much larger roster of popular characters to exploit whereas SW is coasting purely on nostalgia right now. I think after 4-5 years that's going to wear off and the simple feeling of seeing (thing I once loved as a kid) isn't going to be enough.

 

[GeckoMoria]

I wouldn't put the best MCU movies anywhere near the best SW movies.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Maybe not ESB but i would easily regard the top MCU movies to be on par or better than movies like Rogue One, Star Wars or TFA. Especially TFA...

 

[Erzengel]

I wouldn't put the best MCU movies anywhere near the best SW movies.

Having said that I think the MCU is going to win in the end. They have a much larger roster of popular characters to exploit whereas SW is coasting purely on nostalgia right now. I think after 4-5 years that's going to wear off and the simple feeling of seeing (thing I once loved as a kid) isn't going to be enough.

Star Wars has been ingrained in popular culture for 40 years.

Marvel specifically the MCU is going on 10 years next year.

Star Wars land is being introduced in Disney World and Disneyland in 2 years.

I don't think Star Wars will be coasting for the next few years.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

No, the problem is they are still coasting off of the intrigue in half a dozen characters created for the original trilogy. A large portion of the excitement of The Force Awakens came from Han, Chewie, Leia, C3PO, R2D2 and Luke.

A large portion of the excitement for the prequels came from Vader, Obi Wan, Yoda and the droids.

A large portion of the excitement for Rogue One came from Vader and the Death Star (and to a lesser extent Tarkin/Leia).

The Last Jedi is going to need to nip that in the bud or else we risk banking on Hamill and James Earle Jones to carry the franchise into their graves. Or for that matter, R2D2. Who will undoubtedly make an appearance in every Star Wars movie ever. People tend to cite issues with this when discussing Iron Man in MCU movies and Wolverine in X-Men movies.

 

[writer0327]

No, the problem is they are still coasting off of the intrigue in half a dozen characters created for the original trilogy. A large portion of the excitement of The Force Awakens came from Han, Chewie, Leia, C3PO, R2D2 and Luke.

A large portion of the excitement for the prequels came from Vader, Obi Wan, Yoda and the droids.

A large portion of the excitement for Rogue One came from Vader and the Death Star (and to a lesser extent Tarkin/Leia).

The Last Jedi is going to need to nip that in the bud or else we risk banking on Hamill and James Earle Jones to carry the franchise into their graves. Or for that matter, R2D2. Who will undoubtedly make an appearance in every Star Wars movie ever. People tend to cite issues with this when discussing Iron Man in MCU movies and Wolverine in X-Men movies.

100% agree. TFA had a lot of great moments with the new characters. They'll need to create more of those moments and then some in TLJ to make those characters resonate with the audiences. If as the credits are rolling after TLJ, people aren't walking out feeling emotional about Rey, Finn, and Poe that we felt about Luke, Han, and Leia after ESB, they've failed big time.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No, the problem is they are still coasting off of the intrigue in half a dozen characters created for the original trilogy. A large portion of the excitement of The Force Awakens came from Han, Chewie, Leia, C3PO, R2D2 and Luke.

A large portion of the excitement for the prequels came from Vader, Obi Wan, Yoda and the droids.

A large portion of the excitement for Rogue One came from Vader and the Death Star (and to a lesser extent Tarkin/Leia).

The Last Jedi is going to need to nip that in the bud or else we risk banking on Hamill and James Earle Jones to carry the franchise into their graves. Or for that matter, R2D2. Who will undoubtedly make an appearance in every Star Wars movie ever. People tend to cite issues with this when discussing Iron Man in MCU movies and Wolverine in X-Men movies.

This makes zero sense. The majority of the marketing was around Rey, Kylo BB-8, and Finn. Phasma was on the toys more and posters more then Han or Leia. The movie centers around Rey and Kylo. The majority of the screen time belongs to Rey, Kylo, and Finn.

Then we get into the fact that Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe and BB-8 are all very well liked. If people weren't in love with these characters, if Rey merch wasn't flying off the shelves faster then they could replace it, maybe you'd have a point. But that is clearly not the case.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

100% agree. TFA had a lot of great moments with the new characters. They'll need to create more of those moments and then some in TLJ to make those characters resonate with the audiences. If as the credits are rolling after TLJ, people aren't walking out feeling emotional about Rey, Finn, and Poe that we felt about Luke, Han, and Leia after ESB, they've failed big time.

To me one of the bigger issues with TFA compared to ANH is that I came out of ANH caring about the main trio. I came out of TFA caring about Rey and not at all about the other two.

 

[Erzengel]

I came out caring about BB-8.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I came out in love with Rey, BB-8 and Kylo, and really liking Poe and Finn. Rey and Kylo entered my 5 favorite Star Wars characters rather instantly. Also might just be me, but TFA Han is my favorite Han.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I came out in love with Rey, BB-8 and Kylo, and really liking Poe and Finn. Rey and Kylo entered my 5 favorite Star Wars characters rather instantly. Also might just be me, but TFA Han is my favorite Han.

Han was great in TFA. I thought he stole the show in many ways. I'm glad he got to go out like that and not with ROTJ.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

This makes zero sense. The majority of the marketing was around Rey, Kylo BB-8, and Finn. Phasma was on the toys more and posters more then Han or Leia. The movie centers around Rey and Kylo. The majority of the screen time belongs to Rey, Kylo, and Finn.

Then we get into the fact that Rey, Kylo, Finn, Poe and BB-8 are all very well liked. If people weren't in love with these characters, if Rey merch wasn't flying off the shelves faster then they could replace it, maybe you'd have a point. But that is clearly not the case.

Wait, you're saying you dont agree that:

A large portion of the excitement of The Force Awakens came from Han, Chewie, Leia, C3PO, R2D2 and Luke.

A large portion of the excitement for the prequels came from Vader, Obi Wan, Yoda and the droids.

A large portion of the excitement for Rogue One came from Vader and the Death Star (and to a lesser extent Tarkin/Leia).

Man... I thought that was a pretty widely held belief.

 

[writer0327]

I came out in love with Rey, BB-8 and Kylo, and really liking Poe and Finn. Rey and Kylo entered my 5 favorite Star Wars characters rather instantly. Also might just be me, but TFA Han is my favorite Han.

I love Rey.
I like Finn.
I'm curious about Kylo Ren.
I don't know enough about Poe.
BB8 felt like another R2 to me, so sure, okay I guess.

 

[Flint Marko]

K-2S0 might be my favorite Star Wars character.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

K-2S0 might be my favorite Star Wars character.

Many many of the characters in Rogue One had serious potential. K2 specifically was genius in execution [BLACKOUT](no pun intended)[/BLACKOUT]. Jyn, Cassian, Îmwe, and Saw Gerrera all deserved every ounce of screentime they got. Even if I had to google most of their names. They also deserved more.

I would have happily seen a Rogue Two film starring those characters and "many Bothan spies" attempting to steal information on the new Death Star (between ESB and RotJ). Since those characters returning is not a realistic option, we can't really include Rogue One in conversations about sequel-worthy characters.

 

[Sithborg]

I don't know, the deaths hit me harder than one would think, with how little focus so many of them had. So, Rogue One sneakily made me care for the characters.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Wait, you're saying you dont agree that:

Man... I thought that was a pretty widely held belief.

That you had to cut out half your post shows the problem with it. You said they are coasting on the classic characters, when TFA was marketed around the new characters. When the film revolves around the new characters. How is that coasting on the classic characters?

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

That you had to cut out half your post shows the problem with it. You said they are coasting on the classic characters, when TFA was marketed around the new characters. When the film revolves around the new characters. How is that coasting on the classic characters?

Pretty sure you said "zero sense" to my entire post. Then you agree some sense was made.

TFA and Rogue One were both marketed around new and old characters. They both starred new and old characters. The major hoots and hollers I heard in both movies were exclusive to classic character appearances. And I'm quite sure I'm not alone.

The point is, a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, or Doctor Strange can come out without mentioning Stark, Cap or The Avengers in its marketing. Ant-Man's success didn't ride on the appearance of Falcon because it was kept completely a secret.

The only point I'm trying to make is this, Disney (or specifically the people behind Star Wars right now) don't seem to trust the brand enough without the core characters that made it what it was. And that makes plenty of sense. They are still ramping their way up into MCU-level status with Star Wars. I hope someday we get a movie like Rogue One that doesn't include a Skywalker anywhere in sight.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Pretty sure you said "zero sense" to my entire post. Then you agree some sense was made.

TFA and Rogue One were both marketed around new and old characters. They both starred new and old characters. The major hoots and hollers I heard in both movies were exclusive to classic character appearances. And I'm quite sure I'm not alone.

The point is, a movie like Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, or Doctor Strange can come out without mentioning Stark, Cap or The Avengers in its marketing. Ant-Man's success didn't ride on the appearance of Falcon because it was kept completely a secret.

The only point I'm trying to make is this, Disney (or specifically the people behind Star Wars right now) don't seem to trust the brand enough without the core characters that made it what it was. And that makes plenty of sense. They are still ramping their way up into MCU-level status with Star Wars. I hope someday we get a movie like Rogue One that doesn't include a Skywalker anywhere in sight.

Which trailers are based around the classic characters? Which ones? Your premise is flawed because it does not acknowledge that the films itself, along with the marketing, started with the new characters first and foremost. The first trailer didn't even have any classic characters in it. Han is in one shot of the second trailer. Leia is not prominent in any trailer.

It is fundamentally flawed to suggest that Star Wars needs to be ramped up to MCU, when Star Wars is the biggest franchise of all time. The first ever spin-off just did a billion and used less then 10 seconds of Vader in the marketing.

How many of the GotG, Ant-Man or Strange trailers did you see? They all used, "from the studio that brought you" and used shots of other characters from other franchises. Everyone knew they were MCU movies, because they marketed them as such.

The biggest reactions on the 5 times I went and saw TFA belonged to BB-8's thumbs up, Rey catching the saber, Finn arguing with Phasma, Rey chasing down Finn, Rey using the Mind Trick, Han's entrance, Leia's arrival and the appearance of Luke.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I didn't say based. I said they were "both marketed around new and old characters. They both starred new and old characters"

The difference is, people are made to understand Marvel movies exist in the same universe by reminding people which movies are Marvel. Star Wars does that in the title. Being that the MCU is 1/4th the age of Star Wars, I'd say it's just a matter of time.

"Fundamentally flawed?" You're joking right? You think it's not even mentioning one franchises flaws to compare with the other? Can I ask you one thing so I know whether to even continue this debate... do you think the Star Wars franchise deserves criticism for anything?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I didn't say based. I said they were "both marketed around new and old characters. They both starred new and old characters"

The difference is, people are made to understand Marvel movies exist in the same universe by reminding people which movies are Marvel. Star Wars does that in the title. Being that the MCU is 1/4th the age of Star Wars, I'd say it's just a matter of time.

"Fundamentally flawed?" You're joking right? You think it's not even mentioning one franchises flaws to compare with the other? Can I ask you one thing so I know whether to even continue this debate... do you think the Star Wars franchise deserves criticism for anything?

No, it starred the new cast. It featured the classic characters outside of Han, who again was not used to promote the film to anywhere near the same degree as Rey, Finn BB-8 or Kylo. The Han Solo figures didn't even hit until after the film's release, and yet still Force Friday was one of the biggest days ever. Rogue One was almost exclusively based around the new crew. Vader wasn't in 10 seconds of footage in the trailers, and the other characters were hidden.

So, when they show Iron Man all over the trailer for Spider-Man, that doesn't count?

Rogue One proved that isn't a franchise flaw. Having Vader in 5 seconds of trailer footage is not coasting on classic characters. Your argument is fundamentally flawed because they just proved they didn't need to do a movie in the same style as the saga films, with those same characters, to have a billion dollar success.

As to Star Wars deserving criticism. I dislike the prequels and special editions immensely.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Absolutely Iron Man in Spider-Man's trailer counts. That's a HUGE issue and it's discussed at great length over in the Spidey forums.

I happen to disagree about Rogue One proving anything of the sort. Empire is, to date, the only good Star Wars film that doesn't base it's plot around sabotaging a planet destroying starship. A slightly different point, mind you. But the same idea of rehashing 40 year old ideas.

This is admittedly a flaw both franchises share. Many MCU films follow a very similar plot and particularly (unfortunately) similar characters (lookin at you Strange/Stark).

Here's the rub, something I feel like you and I should agree on wholeheartedly. Star Wars is way bigger than that Death Star sabotage plot. And it should flaunt the heck out of it. The depth of the force, bounty hunter culture, and just general alien race/environment exploration in greater detail.

I'm a huge fan of both franchises. And I turn a blind eye to a LOT of Star Wars' flaws to enjoy the larger adventure it presents. I probably do the same for Marvel. But the goal is to avoid that in order to understand whether what we are getting is genuinely good, or just an emotional response to childhood nostalgia.

 

[Sithborg]

Remember when there was an outcry about lack of Rey merch, because what they had was selling out sooo fast. Not to mention the monopoly game that didn't include due to "spoilers"? Hell, Rey was used so much, it provoked the inevitable MRA backlash.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Absolutely Iron Man in Spider-Man's trailer counts. That's a HUGE issue and it's discussed at great length over in the Spidey forums.

I happen to disagree about Rogue One proving anything of the sort. Empire is, to date, the only good Star Wars film that doesn't base it's plot around sabotaging a planet destroying starship. A slightly different point, mind you. But the same idea of rehashing 40 year old ideas.

This is admittedly a flaw both franchises share. Many MCU films follow a very similar plot and particularly (unfortunately) similar characters (lookin at you Strange/Stark).

Here's the rub, something I feel like you and I should agree on wholeheartedly. Star Wars is way bigger than that Death Star sabotage plot. And it should flaunt the heck out of it. The depth of the force, bounty hunter culture, and just general alien race/environment exploration in greater detail.

I'm a huge fan of both franchises. And I turn a blind eye to a LOT of Star Wars' flaws to enjoy the larger adventure it presents. I probably do the same for Marvel. But the goal is to avoid that in order to understand whether what we are getting is genuinely good, or just an emotional response to childhood nostalgia.

The goal is to enjoy yourself. This isn't high art. These are adventure films there to put their audiences through the wringer and give them a good time. Star Wars does this better then most because of how good the films are.

The Death Star plot line is at the center of two films. Rogue One and Star Wars. Empire, TFA, RotJ and PT do not revolve around the Death Star, or Death Star like weapons. They feature, but are clearly not the plot.

TFA is about the Force awakening in Rey and Kylo and finding Luke. RotJ is about Luke confronting Vader and bringing him back to the light. Empire is abotu the training of Luke and Vader's pursuit of Luke.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Remember when there was an outcry about lack of Rey merch, because what they had was selling out sooo fast. Not to mention the monopoly game that didn't include due to "spoilers"? Hell, Rey was used so much, it provoked the inevitable MRA backlash.

Yep. People are rather into Rey and Kylo. And they used a shot of Rey, Finn and Poe to promote the film at the Toy Fair. Daisy was the face of the campaign video on YT.

 

[AlluAllu]

The Force Awakens made me care more about it's characters than any movie in a long time. I find Finn especially compelling. Him being an ex-stormtrooper and all.

I also loved Rey, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to my crush on her.