Who could take the Maestro?

[Horrorfan]

ZOMG! Teh Wovereean jest got hit by zome1 weeker thun Spideyr an it stuggered him!!

up:

Yet getting beat up by Nuke is still somehow less humiliating than being dominated by Stiltman and Ringmaster

 

[Horrorfan]

Are you talking to me?

No- sorry for the confusion TC

 

[Tropico]

Yet getting beat up by Nuke is still somehow less humiliating than being dominated by Stiltman and Ringmaster

G-hukk**
Translation: Damn! I wish this were the Stiltman or Ringmaster! Hell, I'd prefer Aunt May to this loser!!DD

 

[Horrorfan]

You'd rather loose to Ringmaster than Nuke?

But if wolverine has beat spiderman in their one big fight (ignoring for a minute the other encounters in wh ich he ko'ed spidey and swatted him away before spidey backed down like a lil girl) does that mean Nuke could beat spiderman too?

 

[Johnny Blaze]

It's the first issue of the new Marvel Team-Up series.

That's the one. Thanks, Corp.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Actually wolverine wasnt fighting back, saying he 'deserved it'. and wolverine did knock him out, even iron man said from blood loss (caused by wolverine). I dont believe, even if it was an illness, the blood loss didnt contribute to the KO. A clear knock out for wolvie

I wouldn't really call it a "clear knock-out" if Spider-Man was being affected by an illness. That's like saying Crossbones could kick Captain America's ass because he beat him during the Winter Soldier arc while Lukin was ****ing Cap's senses up with the cosmic cube. There were other factors involved in both cases.

 

[Horrorfan]

I wouldn't really call it a "clear knock-out" if Spider-Man was being affected by an illness. That's like saying Crossbones could kick Captain America's ass because he beat him during the Winter Soldier arc while Lukin was ****ing Cap's senses up with the cosmic cube. There were other factors involved in both cases.

I agree on other factors- but a win is a win, tainted or not.

Another thing, X23 (basically Logan as a female) seemed to be on top of spiderman too in a brief brawl before evil Iron Man broke it up. That must hurt that logan as a widdle girl beats the beloved spidey :P (not to you TC, just the crowd that are 'OMGZ SPIDERMANZ INVINCIBLES LOLZ').

 

[gildea]

Actually wolverine wasnt fighting back, saying he 'deserved it'. and wolverine did knock him out, even iron man said from blood loss (caused by wolverine). I dont believe, even if it was an illness, the blood loss didnt contribute to the KO. A clear knock out for wolvie

I must have missed iron man being a qualified medic.

Plus where was the blood?

That must hurt that logan as a widdle girl beats the beloved spidey :P (not to you TC, just the crowd that are 'OMGZ SPIDERMANZ INVINCIBLES LOLZ').

Can you actually discuss this rationally?

No one has said spidey is invincible only that he'd take down wolverine.

Cripes fanboys are hard work.

 

[Horrorfan]

I must have missed iron man being a qualified medic.

Plus where was the blood?



Can you actually discuss this rationally?

No one has said spidey is invincible only that he'd take down wolverine.

Cripes fanboys are hard work.

Yes you fanboys are hard work, denying fights that actually happened and dismissing it as bad writing. Im glad you agree.

I actually have to say I can't believe you have read the series. Blood is everywhere, on the last page of the issue where wolvie tagged him, he has blood from the wound on his abdominal. next issue, blood is dripping on the floor where spidey is kneeling over. THEN there is blood on wolvies claws. Does that clear it up for you?


Plus its a common fact that loss of blood = loss of conciousness. Guess what? Im not a doctor either, I just knew that as a fact of life

 

[Fading]

Sorry to further derail earlier on, just get into some of these vs. even tho it was origionally a Maestro thread lol.

But the fact about Hulk is he only changes when angry, when angry his strength increases, which is why some ppl say Hulk has no base str. Now Wolverine has a major way of ticking the Hulk off, and Hulk is far from a goody goody hero who pulls 100% of his punches. Wolverine's taken enough Hulk, Thing, Collosus and other super strength near or at 100 class hits that I personally believe it's part of his character. I also believe the Nuke and Ringmaster stuff needs to happen too tho because this isn't dragon ball Z and a character shouldn't always be more powerful every issue, and they need to be dragged back into reality.

I just get tired of everytime someones favorite loses it's 'bad writing'. If Hulk loses it's "OMG he didn't lose, it was bad writing, actually Hulk would have took the hit got uber mad lifted half the earth and crushed him!!!". Or if spiderman loses it's "OMG spiderman can't be hit, he's too fast, he would never have gotten tagged he's got his Spider sense!!!". Fact is Wolverine has gutted the Hulk even tho hulk wins more often against him, and Wolverine had the upper hand in their one time in that he took spidermans best and knew he had it in the bag so to speak. I didn't read the more recent him knocking spiderman out and Ironman saying that so I won't speak on it.

History changes, maybe spiderman will become a class 100 next few years and gain a healing factor himself, who knows. If Wolverine ever loses to Spiderman I'll concede, I won't chock it up to bad writing and *****, he'll have lost, oh well the world moves on. I just hate all this "well it was bad writing, on paper x would happen". Fact is the comic world isn't the real world, physics don't always apply . A win is a win, and next fight it could be the reverse, hero's grow in power or weaken. If they've had two encounters (including the one mentioned above) and one left Wolverine in good shape and spiderman shaken and unsure and slowing down, and the other left Spiderman bleeding and unconcious and Wolverine still good to go I think we have our answer. On paper Spiderman beats a lot of ppl he occasionally loses too. Fact is whether fans like it or not Wolverine's getting a huge push from Marvel, he's one of the two most popular, a movie on the way, came from another big movie and will probably increase and win fights he shouldn't. But what the writers do becomes comic history, and they are the ones creating it.

To simply hum and say it didn't happen because an outcome didn't happen the way we wanted it stupid and childish lol. Personally I'm the type of reader who doesn't think a loss ruins a character, and I don't think a character has to beat all other characters to prove he's good. I think personally that Wolverine tops spiderman but gets beat by the Hulk, does that mean I like Wolverine less than the hulk? Nope I like Wolverine because of his character, if I read comics for the most powerful I'd have a Silver Surfer subscription. I also recognize Spiderman can beat Wolverine some of the time, and Wolverine can beat Spiderman some of the time. There is no 100% winner inbetween the two, and as long as their most popular you'll never see Wolverine gutting spiderman, or spiderman hanging wolverine upside and embarrasing him.

Again sry for helping derail lol.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

tbh u seem like a wolvie fan, and u got rather defensive there. It really is bad writing if one day spider-man cant be hit by anything and the next he's being knocked about.especially now he's supposed to be even faster. just like its stupid to thnk wolverine COULD be knocked out with his healing factor or that hulk (with his healing and incredible strength) could ever really be threatened by wolverine. its not consistant with those characters.


help - can u guys tell me which battle involving spideys KO you're talking about? cos if this refers to the training incident where wolvie "snikkt" (or is it "snikkd"?) Spidey and he fell unconscious through blood loss that really doesnt count. it wasnt a proper fight, it was avengers training - extreme violence wasnt really allowed. he got snikkd then pete just beat on wolvie in annoyance and passed out. not exactly a fair example.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

OMG reading up u really are talkin bout that stupid training exercise as if its a fair battle arntya? tutut. for the blood loss bit, iron man sed he slipped out his hands becos the blood made him slippery and then pete fainted from blood loss, but it was training so wtf are u guys on about...?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I agree on other factors- but a win is a win, tainted or not.

Another thing, X23 (basically Logan as a female) seemed to be on top of spiderman too in a brief brawl before evil Iron Man broke it up. That must hurt that logan as a widdle girl beats the beloved spidey :P (not to you TC, just the crowd that are 'OMGZ SPIDERMANZ INVINCIBLES LOLZ').

Yeah, because Spiderman tends to go out wailing on little girls.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Sorry to further derail earlier on, just get into some of these vs. even tho it was origionally a Maestro thread lol.

But the fact about Hulk is he only changes when angry, when angry his strength increases, which is why some ppl say Hulk has no base str. Now Wolverine has a major way of ticking the Hulk off, and Hulk is far from a goody goody hero who pulls 100% of his punches. Wolverine's taken enough Hulk, Thing, Collosus and other super strength near or at 100 class hits that I personally believe it's part of his character. I also believe the Nuke and Ringmaster stuff needs to happen too tho because this isn't dragon ball Z and a character shouldn't always be more powerful every issue, and they need to be dragged back into reality.

Yeah, but he tends to not just spring back up and go back into it. When he recently fought the Hulk, the Hulk pretty much just slapped him more than gave him a hard punch, and Wolverine was basically fighting to just stand up as Hulk was looking for him.

I would say that Wolverine going around and getting out of fights that really his body shouldn't be able to handle should really be tossed out. If the Hulk punches him, sure, his skeleton will hold him together. That's great. That's fine, I can easily understand that. Same for the Thing and Collosus. They don't exactly go around doing precision hitting, and going for kills. So I can see him in more...brawler (for lack of a better word) fights coming out just fine.

I just get tired of everytime someones favorite loses it's 'bad writing'. If Hulk loses it's "OMG he didn't lose, it was bad writing, actually Hulk would have took the hit got uber mad lifted half the earth and crushed him!!!". Or if spiderman loses it's "OMG spiderman can't be hit, he's too fast, he would never have gotten tagged he's got his Spider sense!!!". Fact is Wolverine has gutted the Hulk even tho hulk wins more often against him, and Wolverine had the upper hand in their one time in that he took spidermans best and knew he had it in the bag so to speak. I didn't read the more recent him knocking spiderman out and Ironman saying that so I won't speak on it.

Bad writing is when it just doesn't make sense. Spiderman goes around all day long betting things thrown at him and shot at by cops. Or attacked by villans faster than Wolverine. Electro's bolts sure weren't moving at less than fifteen miles an hour, and Spiderman seemed to be doing just fine against that. So I doubt Wolverine's severely lower speed wouldn't really be coming, especially when Spiderman doesn't even need his spider sense to see it coming. And with his spider sense, he'd definitely not be in any immediate danger from Wolverine in a situation where it's a nice wide open battle. If we were talking close quarters, inside of a room battle, yeah, different situation.

So yeah, bad writing when Spiderman has a nice open room or area where his agility and other abilities are easily at their peak, and we have a scurrying little drool guy with claws kicking his butt. It would make as much sense as Captain Britan stopping a straight running rampaging Hulk by running into him in the same fashion.

History changes, maybe spiderman will become a class 100 next few years and gain a healing factor himself, who knows. If Wolverine ever loses to Spiderman I'll concede, I won't chock it up to bad writing and *****, he'll have lost, oh well the world moves on. I just hate all this "well it was bad writing, on paper x would happen". Fact is the comic world isn't the real world, physics don't always apply . A win is a win, and next fight it could be the reverse, hero's grow in power or weaken. If they've had two encounters (including the one mentioned above) and one left Wolverine in good shape and spiderman shaken and unsure and slowing down, and the other left Spiderman bleeding and unconcious and Wolverine still good to go I think we have our answer. On paper Spiderman beats a lot of ppl he occasionally loses too. Fact is whether fans like it or not Wolverine's getting a huge push from Marvel, he's one of the two most popular, a movie on the way, came from another big movie and will probably increase and win fights he shouldn't. But what the writers do becomes comic history, and they are the ones creating it.

Apparently, reason doesn't apply to comics. Physics has nothing to do with this. Spiderman doesn't exactly HAVE to be super powerful to beat Wolverine. Logic SAYS Spiderman should beat Wolverine. Hence, bad writing. That's not really just on paper. We have Spiderman, someone who could outmaneuver, speed, power, think, smart, and tactize Wolverine, against Wolverine, who basically has really sharp claws, a super heavy skeleton, and a big healing factor. The facts literally speak for themselves. And I do NOT want to hear, "Wolverine's a trained blah blah blah." Trained? Sure. Practiced? Not since the mid nineties at the latest. Spiderman just has such a huge advantage, you might as well be placing the Silver Surfer against the Human Torch. Wolverine's just a charge into battle, and overpower his enemy.

So... comic history? Sure, I can't change it, nor am I going to try. Bad writing? Yes. Bad writing. Because that is what it would be.

But hey, I'm sure someone will say "Don't blame bad writing" when Wolverine beats Iron Man and the Sentry too.

To simply hum and say it didn't happen because an outcome didn't happen the way we wanted it stupid and childish lol. Personally I'm the type of reader who doesn't think a loss ruins a character, and I don't think a character has to beat all other characters to prove he's good. I think personally that Wolverine tops spiderman but gets beat by the Hulk, does that mean I like Wolverine less than the hulk? Nope I like Wolverine because of his character, if I read comics for the most powerful I'd have a Silver Surfer subscription. I also recognize Spiderman can beat Wolverine some of the time, and Wolverine can beat Spiderman some of the time. There is no 100% winner inbetween the two, and as long as their most popular you'll never see Wolverine gutting spiderman, or spiderman hanging wolverine upside and embarrasing him.

Actually, it's childish when you don't question something when it's told to you. Hell, I HOPE you question what it is I'm saying. It's childish to simply assume something is because it is. It's childish to not reason it out. (And reading this back, it sounds like I'm insulting, when I'm really trying not to. Apologies from my behalf.) I agree it's a popularity contest, and that basically MAKES it bad writing. When it's won on popularity, that means reason and actual thought don't take place.

Again sry for helping derail lol.

And thought is always welcome. At least by me.

 

[ang_hulk]

you know what the funny thing is,with planet hulk on the shelves people cant say somone could beat hulk by tossing him into a black hole,the sun,im still not sure on that,i think he could make it but the black hole threorys dead.It would be a ***** move anyways.My contirbution to this threat as far as maestro goes is that he did indeed killl everyone off and the truth is the truth,the only one who can take maestro is hulk himself.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

I'm too lazy to answer every point in this pointless argument, but there's a couple of things I just can't ignore.

First, the analogy to the world's fastest man still losing some races fails utterly, for one simple reason: the World's Fastest Man is competing against other world-class runners, who are only slightly slower than him. If he were competing against an ordinary joe like me, he would win every race. Spidey, on the other hand, is many times faster than Wolverine. (It's important to note that in comics the difference between some characters' levels of speed is far greater than for any two people in real life, because superhuman comic book characters can go far beyond the limits of normal human beings.)

Second, sometimes it is bad writing. Otherwise, you have to say that Wolverine could survive a nuke, pants intact, just because someone was dumb enough to write it. To expect us to ignore the fact that certain stories contradict both common sense and other published stories is just ridiculous.

As for Wolverine surviving Hulk's punches, don't ask me to explain that -- as far as I can tell, many comic book writers don't understand the concept of a concussion. One punch from the Hulk to Wolverine's head ought to slam his brain against his adamantium skull so hard that it leaves nothing but mush. Maybe Wolvie could still heal, but he should never be able to stand back up right after it. It also contradicts the numerous times Wolvie has been knocked out by people who are weaker than Spidey.


Let's get one thing straight. Wolverine is the character who got me into comics. I've been a regular reader of his book, and the various X-Men books (which feature him heavily) for over 15 years. I've never been a regular reader of any Spider-man book. I probably own 50 comics featuring Wolverine for every 1 that I own which features Spider-Man.

So if I have any fanboy bias, it's in favor of Logan, not Spidey. However, unlike some comic fans, I can see past my biases to objectively assess two characters abilities, and form a reasoned conclusion on which would win. And if a writer ignores the established powerlevels of the two characters to write a story that contradicts all common sense, I'm going to call it what it is: bad writing.

The real fanboys are the ones who are willing to take one issue (say, one where Logan is fast enough to keep up with Spidey) and trumpet it over the many decades of comics in which Spidey has displayed a far greater level of speed than Wolverine. You're picking and choosing which portrayals you want to believe; I'm acknowledging that Spider-man is normally much faster than Logan, and the stories that ignore this to give them a good head-to-head match are clearly bull****.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The fastest man in the world analogy is really ridiculous. World class sprinters run the 100m dash in roughly 10 seconds. There is not one guy capable of doing that, there are at any given time 10-20 or more that can. So the difference between a guy that runs a 9.74 and a 10.0 is very negligable.

Plus not to mention that a man running a 9.74 to set the world record, must have the absoloute perfect run. At any given time he can run a 10.3 or faster, but to run a sub 10 he must have a really good run.

Where as Wolverine is say at best 3 times faster than the average human. Pete is 15 or more times faster than the average human, not to mention his spider sense.



Look-Horrofan CBJ and anyone else arguing for Logan it's really not logical. Think about it, go out and pick a 5 year old to fight you. But dont use your strength to your advantage, just your speed. How fair of a fight is that going to be?

About the same as one between Logan and Pete would be. Yes Logan could take the punishment, but Pete doesn't even need to beat on him, he can just web his Canuck ass up.

Spider-silk is eight times stronger than tensile steel. Yeah he isn't getting out of it for an hour when it disolves.


The ONLY argument I have in Logan's favor that has been brought up by KAD on several occassions and I regocnize it and take it into account. Is that Logan was created as an enemy for the Hulk. So when he initially appeared he was designed to take punishment and deal it out.

BUT over the years we as comics book readers have come to know him better as a high tuned peak human character, not some brawler that takes on characters like the Hulk. You dont agree? How often does he take on 100 class level characters? He sure as hell doesn't do it as often as the Hulk or Thor.

No, writers have turned him into much lower level character. Yes he has encounters with the Hulk through the years, but not nearly as many as the hundreds and thousands he has had with Ninjas, Assasians and other characters closer to his current dipicted level.

Pete is way out of Logans league.

 

[Horrorfan]

Training exercise counts because it was a battle simulation- and spiderman just wasn't fast enough to avoid the blow (despite what you guys said).Anyway, do you not see how stupid this is- you are arguing wolverine is below spidey, yet the only big time match they have had, wolvie won? That's not even mentioning all the other brief skirmishes and alternate world kills wolvie has over him. At the very least, in skirmishes, they could be called equal, but your denying the big fight which wolvie won. You can't argue against what happened in the comic because you don't agree with it. Hell there are heroes who could and have trashed wolvie- but I dont mind because it happened in the comics, and thats what w ould happen. And also, its not like wolverine has suddenly become resiliant to powerful punches- he has always been. He tangled with the Hulk and Wendigo in his first apperance for God's sake. You make out like it's just happened in the last few months. It's insane and inane. At least when he gets punched he has an unbreakable skeleton- what about spiderman? He got pounded by Juggernaught and Hulk before- he should be DEAD (he has the powers of a spider, not a f**king God who can take any punishment). So if you're gonna complain about wolverine, the same should apply to spiderman, who isn't as durable as wolverine (some of the stuff wolvie's got up from would have killed spiderman many times over).Like I say, if it comes down to it, Spidey has gotten beat on by Stiltman, Ring Master and Cardiac- so if he's as great as you say, he should have pounded them easy (but let me guess- that was down to Robert Kirkman's bad writing, right?)Wolverine knows how to fight. He knows several fighting styles, and is one of the most skilled hand to hand fighters in the MU. Spiderman doesn't really have much formal knowledge. Watch a UFC fight- it's always the one who doesn't hold back, and who KNOWS how to fight, It's how he takes on people like hulk and wendigo- he knows how to fight and manuever, his claws can cut almost anything (including hulk's hide) and he doesn't hold back, unlike spiderman.Speed and strength don't mean squat if your up against someone who knows almost every form of combat their is.At the very least I will give you they are equal- at most, wolvie's skills and durability, as well as the fact he won't hold back win the fight.It's HAPPENED people. Please, at the very least, don't deny the fight just because your favourite didn't win.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

My only problem with wolverine or I should say one of my problems with him is that even though his skeleton is unbreakable, his organs are not and extreme shock should affect him just as it affects anybody turning his organs into mush. Given he can heal but he does not heal instantly or should not from that.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

The problem with Woverines skeleton is that even if it doesn't break it will still transmit force to his internal organs. I once saw a television program about body armor and they said that they would never be able to create a bulletproof vest that would protect against a heavy caliber rifle bullet because even if they made a vest that would not be penetrated the shock would pass through and kill the wearer anyway. The same principle applies to Wolverines skeleton. If he gets hit by someone like Spidey or the Hulk his bones won't break but everything else in his body will. His strategy should be to avoid getting hit which he is fast enough to do against the Hulk but not against Spidey. At a very rough estimation the difference in speed between Wolvie and the Hulk is approximately the same as that between Bruce Lee and Don Knotts,Thor and Hercules are that much faster than Logan and Spidey that much faster than Thor and Herc.

 

[Tropico]

Only because you're a perv.

Yes, yes I am! And I bet you that if Umar had a rifle butt in her hands she could take any of the Wolverine incarnations while doing any of the Hulk incarnations. It's just that simple: Umar+rifle butt= teh ubeatable!!!up:

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

The problem with Woverines skeleton is that even if it doesn't break it will still transmit force to his internal organs. I once saw a television program about body armor and they said that they would never be able to create a bulletproof vest that would protect against a heavy caliber rifle bullet because even if they made a vest that would not be penetrated the shock would pass through and kill the wearer anyway. The same principle applies to Wolverines skeleton. If he gets hit by someone like Spidey or the Hulk his bones won't break but everything else in his body will. His strategy should be to avoid getting hit which he is fast enough to do against the Hulk but not against Spidey. At a very rough estimation the difference in speed between Wolvie and the Hulk is approximately the same as that between Bruce Lee and Don Knotts,Thor and Hercules are that much faster than Logan and Spidey that much faster than Thor and Herc.

Not sure if you saw the same one I did but that is true to a certain extent. They (scientists/military/whomever) is creating new materials that actually absorb impact as well as stop the bullet form penetrating. Of course these are small calibar bullets, that's why I said to a certain extent.

It was actually really cool ****.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes, yes I am! And I bet you that if Umar had a rifle butt in her hands she could take any of the Wolverine incarnations while doing any of the Hulk incarnations. It's just that simple: Umar+rifle butt= teh ubeatable!!!up:

Your logic, as always, is flawless.

 

[MyPokerShirt]

wow this thread really is full blown. wolverine always punches above his weight. at least agree spidey is above his weight!

 

[Horrorfan]

Dude let it drop. We have reached a sort of ''peace treaty'' now No need to start it up again.

 

[Wilderbeast]

x-man
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living tribunil
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