Batman Begins Who still likes/thinks Begins is better than TDK?

[El Payaso]

It wasn't all that amazing, in other words.

Oooooooh. So basically I have nothing to calm down about, in other words.

 

[Travesty]

Oooooooh. So basically I have nothing to calm down about, in other words.

Ooooooooh. So basically, you're "confused frowned-smiley" was uncalled for, as it wasn't as "fine" as you're trying to put it, as its supposed to be something "amazing" by everybody who witnessed it?

Yeah, TDK had a good Joker-Batman relationship, but I think B89 had just as good, if not better, then TDK. Both films were alright, and still haven't portrayed the way I would like to see their battle. It's just "fine", not "OMGGGGGG, this is AMAZINIGNGOINOSFNF".

 

[Dark Guardian]

Man, that is utter rubbish!

Of course Joker is recognizing him as his ultimate challenge. What do you think the "You complete me" line means? Joker is laying it down right there that Batman is his ultimate foe. The challenge that completes him and makes it all really fun. That's why he doesn't want to kill him.



I'm sorry, but I think you are completely worng. There was nothing missing at all from the Batman/Joker dynamic here.

You've still failed to point out anything that was absent.

Only because you were quick to dismiss any that I have pointed out. I haven't failed. I'm not sure if I should re-post them to prove that or... just leave it.

Yes, it is. Mocking Batman is totally Joker's style.

I don't know what media you've been watching, because that is common knowledge.

Actually you know very well what media I've been watching, since I've oh...stated it in my responses to your posts...
B:TAS, Batman 1989, The Killing Joke, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, you know the really hard to find stuff.

Oh please do. I'm dying to read what tickles your funny bone.

As you wish. Here are some of my favorites:
"Haven't you ever heard of the healing power of laughter? "

"And now, folks, it's time for "Who do you trust!" Hubba, hubba, hubba! Money, money, money! Who do you trust? Me? I'm giving away free money. And where is the Batman? HE'S AT HOME WASHING HIS TIGHTS!"

(This one gets me every time)
"Grease 'em now? Well, OK. You are a vicious bastard Rotelli, and, uh, I'm glad you're dead!"

From the greatest interpretation of the Joker ever (IMO of course) B:TAS:

"[after Batman fights back against his hyenas] Hey! Do I hit your kids? Oh, actually I do...

"They sure don't make straight jackets like they used too. I should know."

Two-Face: "Get out of my face clown!"
Joker: "Which one?"

[locking Batman in airtight container]
"I just love these new Ziplock Seals." (Another of my personal favorites)

JOKER: Send down the plane, boys! We're blowing town! Literally. . .
THUG: Yes sir!
HILL: But all those innocent people!
JOKER: Some joke on them, eh? Think of it as the ultimate punch line!

If those aren't really all that funny and Joker-like to you...well, I dunno guess we're thinking of completely different characters.

Yes. Because Joker knows Batman. He recognized that Batman cared for Rachel by the way he threw himself after her.

He knew what buttons to press to rile Batman.

And Batman in all his training, all his willpower, is just that easily pushed huh?

LMAO! Are you kidding me here, man?

Well... no actually.

Do I have to get out my scanner and post a dozen scans that show Batman beating seven shades of s*** out of the Joker because he messed with someone Batman cares about personally, just like in TDK when Joker told Batman he had Rachel, too?

No thats perfectly fine, because then I'd have to get out my scanner and post a dozen scans of Batman being calm and in control when the Joker has messed with someone he cares with personally, because he's not some hyperactively aggressive drunk who flys off the handle constantly.

Do you? Well it's a shame you don't get that when Joker messes with people Batman cares about.

Yes, please list me lots of examples of where Batman stayed calm when Joker held the life of someone he loves in his hands.

Well, sorry to keep using Batman 1989 as a reference, but its the only other film Joker so I'm forced to alot. I have others though.
But if you'd kindly rewatch (or just remember) the climax of the film, Batman follows the Joker up the cathedral, even while he has Vicki Vale literally held at gunpoint all the way up. Does he charge up the stairs and run right out at the Joker (even after beating down his thugs)? No... he moves silently through the room and calmly beats down the Joker.

Now there aren't as many instances of that particular scenario, since you can't use it over and over again, Joker attacking someone Batman personally cares for, but quite probably the best of them is in The Killing Joke. Joker just shot Barbara Gordon and has been torturing Jim Gordon attempting to drive him nuts. Batman pursues him in the same exact manner he always does, always in control of himself, and apprehends the Joker without the need for ridiculous amounts of blood and violence. I can scan that for you if you don't have it.

That's because he was behind the bloody glass with Gordon and the others watching Batman beat the hell out of Joker with Joker laughing the whole time.

That may be your interperation of the cops statement:
"I'm a twenty year man, so I know the difference between punks who need to be taught a lesson, and psychos like you who would just enjoy it."
But I interpert him as knowing the difference between those who fear pain and those who don't, I dunno, coming from his twenty years of experience as a cop. Its sort of... just like he said.

Honestly man, your criticisms are getting ridiculous now.

Honestly man! I could say the same to you, however I recognize your thought procesess and logical arguments as not being ridiculous. Too bad can't you cannot see the same with mine.

Ugh, this old chestnut. Yeah, save it for another thread.

It is indeed old. I think its more like a walnut though, tougher and longer lasting. Or perhaps even a buckeye hmmm?

I didn't think there was still people with a beef over this. Ledger looked awesome, and alot more like a scary clown than most visual representations of the Joker.

Oh there are. Plenty. Many more than just little old me.

I cannot deny it was a strayed look from the comic, but then Batman doesn't look like his comic counterpart in any of the movies. No grey spandex and blue cape. Ra's Al Ghul didn't have his traditional outfit. Scarecrow just wore the sack on his head. No full body costume.

Agreed.

Every character was a visual deviation. Joker had the purple suit, green hair, white face, red lips, and a sinister cut smile. He had more of the essentials than any other character visually. And characteristically, too, actually.

I would argue that of all the characters in the comics and other media, The Joker is the one who's costume has remained the most constant. Scarecrows and Ra's Al Ghuls have been portrayed many other ways in many different places. So of the three, The Jokers should have been the one kept closest to its source material. Sadly this is not the case.

I'm not talking about looks. Only a man with serious psychological and personal issues would do what Bruce Wayne does. And we saw that from Begins. Dealing with anger, pain, guilt, fear etc.

And Joker was right, Batman is not like the Cops. He doesn't work like a Cop, he doesn't obey the rules of the Cops. Like Joker said "Batman has no jurisdiction". The citizens of Gotham brand Batman an outlaw and vigilante.

Joker was correctly pointing out that Batman is tolerated for his uses, but Gotham still sees him as a freak, just like Joker. Even Harvey pointed that out. "Yes, Batman is an outlaw. But we've been happy to let him clean up our streets until now".

Do you see what Joker meant?

Indeed I do. Thank you. I still don't like it and think a different statement by the Joker would have been more apt, but I understand what this line was now intended to mean.

Oh yes, silly Batman. How did he not know Joker's weaknesses when this was the first time he ever tried to intimidate him? Tsk tsk, his psychic radar must have been on the blink that day

Silly Batman, he really should toss away that psychic radar in favor of his standard deductive skills and unmatched intelligence. I'm sure he'll get it right next time.

Really? Ok, you tell me, what methods should he have employed with Joker in that interrogation room to make him talk, other than trying to physically intimidate him, and inflict pain on him?

Well, unfortunately I am not a screenwriter, or a comic book writer and as such I'm not entirely sure. But isn't that why we're supposed to be awed by Batman's ability to think outside the box, because he can find things to do that we as an audience wouldn't have ordinarily thought of? When you say "Wow. I never would have thought of that." while reading a comic or watching a film, you're recognizing the characters superior ability to deduce and solve difficult situations. Given enough time I'm sure I could come up with something. But then again...so should have the screenwriters for TDK.

 

[Dark Guardian]

Yeah, TDK had a good Joker-Batman relationship, but I think B89 had just as good, if not better, then TDK. Both films were alright, and still haven't portrayed the way I would like to see their battle. It's just "fine", not "OMGGGGGG, this is AMAZINIGNGOINOSFNF".

I agree whole-heartedly! Completely! Inescapably!

 

[El Payaso]

Ooooooooh. So basically, you're "confused frowned-smiley" was uncalled for, as it wasn't as "fine" as you're trying to put it, as its supposed to be something "amazing" by everybody who witnessed it?

Oooooooooooooooh. So it never had anything to do with me calming down. It was me having a different opinion.

Yeah, TDK had a good Joker-Batman relationship, but I think B89 had just as good, if not better, then TDK.

I can agree with that.

Still, TDK did great having the non-killing element that allowed the Joker to control Batman much more making it a more conflictive matter for Bats.

Both films were alright, and still haven't portrayed the way I would like to see their battle. It's just "fine", not "OMGGGGGG, this is AMAZINIGNGOINOSFNF".

Unless you have a defective keyboard is never like that. "Very well done and explained" sums it up perfectly for me without the caps lock/lack of letters problem you expose there.

 

[El Payaso]

I agree whole-heartedly! Completely! Inescapably!

calm down.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Dark Guardian, the Joker was infatuated with Vicki Vale in B89. No way in hell he was going to kill her and Batman knew it due to the encounter at Vicki's apartment where the Joker shoots Bruce. His knowledge of the Joker's love for Vicki is exactly why he wouldn't bother charging into the situation. Ledger's Joker was more unhinged than Nicholson's. He flat-out didn't give a crap about anyone or anything and was liable to off Rachel at any point (and what do ya know? He did exactly that).

 

[nathaniel]

Thee one thing i wished in TDK was to see a big switch by batman to Joker.

Joker has all the momentum but for all his smarts batmman should be seen as smarter to turn jokers plan on its head. The B89 chemical code breaking is a good example joker has the whole city on its head and batman flips the switch in his favour this is why i think B89 has the best live action BAT/Joker dynamic in that they both get the upper hand then lose it then gain it again until the climaticc finish.

 

[redfirebird2008]

BTW Dark Guardian, I'd love for you to describe in detail why you find this scene to be un-Joker-like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77wDr11ppJ8

Seems pretty damn funny to me, in a Killing Joke kind of way. But hey, maybe I have too dark of a sense of humor.

 

[Dark Guardian]

BTW Dark Guardian, I'd love for you to describe in detail why you find this scene to be un-Joker-like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77wDr11ppJ8

Seems pretty damn funny to me, in a Killing Joke kind of way. But hey, maybe I have too dark of a sense of humor.

The only part of that scene that I find remotely funny or Joker-like is when the Joker mouths "Six". That elicited a brief smile from me.

The rest of it is...well, too serious for the Joker. No laughs, no wit in the description of the 'little emotions'. He's explaining something, but not in a funny way.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The only part of that scene that I find remotely funny or Joker-like is when the Joker mouths "Six". That elicited a brief smile from me.

The rest of it is...well, too serious for the Joker. No laughs, no wit in the description of the 'little emotions'. He's explaining something, but not in a funny way.

WTF? "In a way, I knew your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?"

Twisted and hilarious. You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint on what constitutes Joker humor. I have a very wide range, whether it be Cesar Romero or Jack Nicholson camping it up with lines like "He's at home a-washin' his tights" or Ledger and Nicholson going to the darker side of things (Nicholson talking to an electrocuted skeleton; Ledger laughing his ass off while he falls to his own death). The truth of the matter is, you CANNOT state that the Joker humor in TDK is invalid because there's plenty of basis for it in the comics. You're basically saying the comics that influenced it aren't valid versions of the character, which is a ridiculous thing to say. The character has been around for roughly 7 decades. There are many different versions and Nolan nailed one version of it.

 

[Dark Guardian]

WTF? "In a way, I knew your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?"

Twisted and hilarious. You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint on what constitutes Joker humor. I have a very wide range, whether it be Cesar Romero or Jack Nicholson camping it up with lines like "He's at home a-washin' his tights" or Ledger and Nicholson going to the darker side of things (Nicholson talking to an electrocuted skeleton; Ledger laughing his ass off while he falls to his own death).

Well, part of it was how he says it. If that line had been said differently, maybe I would have thought it funny. Because I too loved Nicholson's Joker talking to the electrocuted mobster. One of the best Joker moments in the entire film! And Ledger laughing as he fell was great too, something I wish they'd had Nicholson's Joker do when he fell off the cathedral.
I think that that scene was just too dry for me, thats all I can think of.
Because you look at the scene where he's talking to the mob and I loved it. Especially the little things like his tug on the grenade wire with the little 'Nnn nn.' Classic! And his gesturing to the TV by making a box with his fingers, also very funny. However, his delivery of lines like "We...uh... kill the Batman." seemed too nervous for me. The Joker shouldn't be that nervous!

Anyways, just a peek into what I think of various Joker scenes.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Well, part of it was how he says it. If that line had been said differently, maybe I would have thought it funny. Because I too loved Nicholson's Joker talking to the electrocuted mobster. One of the best Joker moments in the entire film! And Ledger laughing as he fell was great too, something I wish they'd had Nicholson's Joker do when he fell off the cathedral.
I think that that scene was just too dry for me, thats all I can think of.
Because you look at the scene where he's talking to the mob and I loved it. Especially the little things like his tug on the grenade wire with the little 'Nnn nn.' Classic! And his gesturing to the TV by making a box with his fingers, also very funny. However, his delivery of lines like "We...uh... kill the Batman." seemed too nervous for me. The Joker shouldn't be that nervous!

Anyways, just a peek into what I think of various Joker scenes.

It wasn't nervousness, he was just bull*****ting the gangsters. He knew exactly what he was doing. For crying out loud, Nolan practically made him omniscient in the film; he had the gangsters and the city by the balls. "The Joker planned to be caught" and so forth. If you want to criticize something in TDK regarding the Joker, that's where you should be hammering away because the likelihood of him pulling off all the things he does in the film is slim to none. As far as the personality goes, however, Nolan and Ledger nailed a certain type of Joker. The Killing Joke was clearly a big influence and they did a great job with it.

 

[Dark Guardian]

You really think it was him purposefully acting that way? Hmmm... I never saw that as a possibility. Interesting...
And indeed I agree with you in the fact that any plot holes to be found are all along the lines of The Joker's schemes seemingly being pulled off in planning with the moves of his enemies. Why would he be so committed in his attack against Harvey Dent if he was planning on being caught and putting Dent in a warehouse? How could he possibly have known that his rocket blast would be absorbed by the Batmobile? What if Batman had been a fraction too late and Dent had gotten killed? Then what would he have done about the whole Rachel/Dent plan? For that matter, what if the rocket blast had actually killed Batman? What would he have done then?
So yes, it all went waaay too perfectly. But again, I'm at least attempting (just for you ) to not bash TDK in this thread. I'll make another thread about plotholes.

 

[redfirebird2008]

You really think it was him purposefully acting that way? Hmmm... I never saw that as a possibility. Interesting...

The part where he says, "And little...uh...Gambol, here, won't be able to get a nickel for his grandma." That was bound to be an intentional shot at Gambol. He points at him while saying "uh," which is the ultimate slap in the face to a hot shot gangster. A guy like that would have a pretty big ego and would expect people to show him some respect, not "forget" his name and point at him while saying "uh." And then he takes it even further by bringing Gambol's grandma into the equation.

 

[Dark Guardian]

The part where he says, "And little...uh...Gambol, here, won't be able to get a nickel for his grandma." That was bound to be an intentional shot at Gambol. He points at him while saying "uh," which is the ultimate slap in the face to a hot shot gangster. A guy like that would have a pretty big ego and would expect people to show him some respect, not "forget" his name and point at him while saying "uh." And then he takes it even further by bringing Gambol's grandma into the equation.

I love that part. Fantastic lines and great delivery.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Not to mention that he kills Gambol's bodyguard with the infamous pencil trick. He definitely knew how to punch old Gambol's buttons...lolz.

 

[Mandalore464]

What if Batman had been a fraction too late and Dent had gotten killed? Then what would he have done about the whole Rachel/Dent plan?

Although what I'm going to say does not explain Joker's omniscience completely, this particular detail can simply be explained by the fact that the Rachel/Harvey abduction was a contingency plan in case Joker failed to kill Dent during the chase. If he had managed to pull it off, my guess is that his next target would have been Rachel anyway, but this time with the sole purpose to hurt Batman.

I think that Joker's tactical genius in TDK is just about that. He cannot anticipate his numerous enemies' every moves, but has a series of back up plans he can trigger quickly everytime one of his attempts is countered.

Of course, the whole "bus kills the last bank robber" and "planned to be caught" things are still way over-the-top.

 

[Dark Guardian]

Although what I'm going to say does not explain Joker's omniscience completely, this particular detail can simply be explained by the fact that the Rachel/Harvey abduction was a contingency plan in case Joker failed to kill Dent during the chase. If he had managed to pull it off, my guess is that his next target would have been Rachel anyway, but this time with the sole purpose to hurt Batman.

Interesting theory, but how would he have communicated this plan to those required to carry it out? For that matter it would take hours of work to get both locations set up. If it was indeed, only a backup plan, would he really go to all that work beforehand? And again, how could he let his thugs know to carry out that plan, when he was captured?

 

[Travesty]

WTF? "In a way, I knew your friends better than you ever did. Would you like to know which of them were cowards?"

Twisted and hilarious. You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint on what constitutes Joker humor. I have a very wide range, whether it be Cesar Romero or Jack Nicholson camping it up with lines like "He's at home a-washin' his tights" or Ledger and Nicholson going to the darker side of things (Nicholson talking to an electrocuted skeleton; Ledger laughing his ass off while he falls to his own death).

I don't see anything funny about that line at all, but I too get a slight chuckle out of the "six" remark. I don't see it as a joke, I see it as The Joker purposefully getting under the guards skin, so he'll come over and fight him. The "Would you like to know which of them were cowards?", wasn't really a joke, but perhaps, part of a joke. It seems to be more of a set-up, to the eventual punch("six"). Either way, it still doesn't scream "The Joker" to me. Sure, maybe it screams "Joker's first appearance", but why is it alright for Nolan to go backwards on the character of The Joker, and its an outright sin for anybody else to do the same with Batman?

The truth of the matter is, you CANNOT state that the Joker humor in TDK is invalid because there's plenty of basis for it in the comics. You're basically saying the comics that influenced it aren't valid versions of the character, which is a ridiculous thing to say. The character has been around for roughly 7 decades. There are many different versions and Nolan nailed one version of it.

Sure, but by this statement, it would be ok for Batman to kill off people with a handgun.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I don't see anything funny about that line at all, but I too get a slight chuckle out of the "six" remark. I don't see it as a joke, I see it as The Joker purposefully getting under the guards skin, so he'll come over and fight him. The "Would you like to know which of them were cowards?", wasn't really a joke, but perhaps, part of a joke. It seems to be more of a set-up, to the eventual punch("six"). Either way, it still doesn't scream "The Joker" to me. Sure, maybe it screams "Joker's first appearance",

The "six" line comes before his "you wanna know why I use a knife" spiel. Joker starts off asking him how many of his friends he's killed and the cop responds with this spiel, "I'm a twenty year man. I can tell the difference between punks who need a little lesson in manners, and the freaks like you who would just enjoy it...And you killed six of my friends." Then the Joker mouths "six," the scene cuts away to the situation with Dent and Rachel. And then it comes back to the police station, which is when the Joker asks, "Do you wanna know why I use a knife?"

but why is it alright for Nolan to go backwards on the character of The Joker, and its an outright sin for anybody else to do the same with Batman?

Why are you asking me? I've never commented on it. I'm not a huge stickler on being 100% faithful to the comics. If I was, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the live action movies and the truth is I highly enjoy 4 of the 6.

Sure, but by this statement, it would be ok for Batman to kill off people with a handgun.

Again, why are you directing this at me? I'm fine with Batman using a gun. This notion that Batman doesn't kill in Nolan's world is a load of horsecrap. I'm sure a number of people died when he blew up that monastery in Batman Begins and I wonder how many cops' lives he has put in danger with his car chase antics in both BB and TDK. And he let Ra's Al Ghul die when he could have saved him. That is the same as killing IMHO.

 

[The Joker]

Only because you were quick to dismiss any that I have pointed out. I haven't failed. I'm not sure if I should re-post them to prove that or... just leave it.

I have not dismissed anything. I have addressed everything you've said. You simply choose to interpret the scene as something differently, when it's pretty clear cut as to what Joker is saying to Batman.

Actually you know very well what media I've been watching, since I've oh...stated it in my responses to your posts...
B:TAS, Batman 1989, The Killing Joke, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, you know the really hard to find stuff.

And can you list me any scenes in those where Batman has to interrogate the Joker in order to get info out of him in order to save lives?

As you wish. Here are some of my favorites:
"Haven't you ever heard of the healing power of laughter? "

"And now, folks, it's time for "Who do you trust!" Hubba, hubba, hubba! Money, money, money! Who do you trust? Me? I'm giving away free money. And where is the Batman? HE'S AT HOME WASHING HIS TIGHTS!"

(This one gets me every time)
"Grease 'em now? Well, OK. You are a vicious bastard Rotelli, and, uh, I'm glad you're dead!"

From the greatest interpretation of the Joker ever (IMO of course) B:TAS:

"[after Batman fights back against his hyenas] Hey! Do I hit your kids? Oh, actually I do...

"They sure don't make straight jackets like they used too. I should know."

Two-Face: "Get out of my face clown!"
Joker: "Which one?"

[locking Batman in airtight container]
"I just love these new Ziplock Seals." (Another of my personal favorites)

JOKER: Send down the plane, boys! We're blowing town! Literally. . .
THUG: Yes sir!
HILL: But all those innocent people!
JOKER: Some joke on them, eh? Think of it as the ultimate punch line!

If those aren't really all that funny and Joker-like to you...well, I dunno guess we're thinking of completely different characters.

You have completely missed the point.

All of those lines are quoted from a plethora of different scenarios, none of them remotely like the scene we're discussing in TDK. Joker arguing with Two Face, Joker addressing Gotham, Joker about blow up Gotham etc. How many of them are him talking to Batman? And better yet, how many of them are him talking to Batman one on one while in custody in the middle of a crisis?

You see the flaw of your arguement now? How much more funny can Joker get locked in an interrogation room being interrogated by Batman?

You also seem to be missing the point of that scene, too. This was to show Joker's philosophy, and how it's the polar opposite of Batman's. They injected just the right amount of Joker's dark humour into this scene, without detracting from the seriousness of the scene, and going over the top with it. Joker's humour was already well established in the movie by this point, too. And was further established many more times later, too. Like dressing up as a nurse, for example. Why should he get funnier here?

Now unless you can provide me with an example of a scenario where Joker was under interogation from Batman in a crisis, and came off as much more funnier as you claim, I'm afraid once again that your arguement is flawed.

And Batman in all his training, all his willpower, is just that easily pushed huh?

Just like in the comics. Can you tell me of any superhero who doesn't lose their cool when a villain blatantly mocks the hero like that when they have the life of a loved one in their hands?

Especially since Batman had no idea Rachel was in danger until Joker so mockingly told him right there. Even laughing in his face about it.

No thats perfectly fine, because then I'd have to get out my scanner and post a dozen scans of Batman being calm and in control when the Joker has messed with someone he cares with personally, because he's not some hyperactively aggressive drunk who flys off the handle constantly.

Ooooh that sounds like a challenge. Go for it, post some scans.

Btw, your mentioning of Return of the Joker movie above reminded me of when Batman went ape s*** and beat the crap out of Joker when he saw what he had done to Robin.

Is that the calm Batman you were talking about that you like so much?

Well, sorry to keep using Batman 1989 as a reference, but its the only other film Joker so I'm forced to alot. I have others though.
But if you'd kindly rewatch (or just remember) the climax of the film, Batman follows the Joker up the cathedral, even while he has Vicki Vale literally held at gunpoint all the way up. Does he charge up the stairs and run right out at the Joker (even after beating down his thugs)? No... he moves silently through the room and calmly beats down the Joker.

I think you missed the point of Joker's intentions towards Vicki in B'89. He had no intention of killing her. He was romantically infatuated with her. Batman knew this. Heck Joker was dancing romantically with her while Batman was dispatching his thugs.

Her life was in no immediate danger.

Now there aren't as many instances of that particular scenario, since you can't use it over and over again, Joker attacking someone Batman personally cares for, but quite probably the best of them is in The Killing Joke. Joker just shot Barbara Gordon and has been torturing Jim Gordon attempting to drive him nuts. Batman pursues him in the same exact manner he always does, always in control of himself, and apprehends the Joker without the need for ridiculous amounts of blood and violence. I can scan that for you if you don't have it.

That's because Jim Gordon told him not to before he confronted the Joker in the funhouse. You'll recall when Batman first arrived on the scene, he immediately attacked the Joker. But Joker sprayed his arm with acid and escaped into the funhouse.

Batman then released Gordon from his cage, and Gordon told Batman that he wanted Joker brought in, and he wanted him brought in by the book because they have to show him that their way works.

Batman obviously did just that out of respect for his friend, because it's Gordon's daughter he crippled. It was Gordon that Joker tortured.

That may be your interperation of the cops statement:
"I'm a twenty year man, so I know the difference between punks who need to be taught a lesson, and psychos like you who would just enjoy it."
But I interpert him as knowing the difference between those who fear pain and those who don't, I dunno, coming from his twenty years of experience as a cop. Its sort of... just like he said.

He knew that because he had just SEEN it for himself 5 minutes ago when Joker was getting his rocks off from Batman repeatedly pummeling him.

That's how he knew Joker was different.

Honestly man! I could say the same to you, however I recognize your thought procesess and logical arguments as not being ridiculous. Too bad can't you cannot see the same with mine.

Listen I'm not trying to insult you. And I apologize if that's how it seemed to you. I just find your analysis of this so very flawed, when most of it is very obvious.

Oh there are. Plenty. Many more than just little old me.

Yeah? Well they're sure keeping quiet about it whoever they are. Heck if you go and look in that huge Joker costume thread in Bat world, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who is not dressing up like Ledger's Joker.

I think I recall you, Travesty, observing that a while ago, when you asked is anyone dressing up like classic Joker.

I would argue that of all the characters in the comics and other media, The Joker is the one who's costume has remained the most constant. Scarecrows and Ra's Al Ghuls have been portrayed many other ways in many different places. So of the three, The Jokers should have been the one kept closest to its source material. Sadly this is not the case.

How was that not the case? Purple suit, gloves, green vest, green hair, white face, red lips etc. It was all there. Only the make up was styled in a more gritty scary manner.

Silly Batman, he really should toss away that psychic radar in favor of his standard deductive skills and unmatched intelligence. I'm sure he'll get it right next time.

Really? So, Batman tried hurting Joker, physically intimidating him, and simply outright asking him.

Can you suggest what he left out in his interrogation process?

Well, unfortunately I am not a screenwriter, or a comic book writer and as such I'm not entirely sure.

Probably because there isn't anything else. You have to bare in mind the situation here. Batman and Joker locked in a room, lives in danger, time running out, and Batman was faced with a man who did not fear him, or pain, or death.

I certainly cannot think of what else Batman could have done, and neither can you, and we're both die hard Batman fans.

Why should some fancy Hollywood screenwriter know better?

 

[Travesty]

The "six" line comes before his "you wanna know why I use a knife" spiel. Joker starts off asking him how many of his friends he's killed and the cop responds with this spiel, "I'm a twenty year man. I can tell the difference between punks who need a little lesson in manners, and the freaks like you who would just enjoy it...And you killed six of my friends." Then the Joker mouths "six," the scene cuts away to the situation with Dent and Rachel. And then it comes back to the police station, which is when the Joker asks, "Do you wanna know why I use a knife?"

Ahhhh, my bad, I thought it was after. I's been a few months since I watched the movie. Well, I guess I didn't find that quote funny at all, then. Again, I see it as The Joker getting under the guards skin, so he can attempt to break out, not a "OMG, I'm going to make a joke, cause I'm The Joker".

Why are you asking me? I've never commented on it. I'm not a huge stickler on being 100% faithful to the comics. If I was, I wouldn't be able to enjoy any of the live action movies and the truth is I highly enjoy 4 of the 6.

I was just asking, can I not? I don't care about being 100% faithful either, as I LOVE Returns, but just because The Joker has some tendencies leaning more towards the first appearances, doesn't make it a good translation of the character. It was more of a way to get my point across.

Again, why are you directing this at me? I'm fine with Batman using a gun. This notion that Batman doesn't kill in Nolan's world is a load of horsecrap. I'm sure a number of people died when he blew up that monastery in Batman Begins and I wonder how many cops' lives he has put in danger with his car chase antics in both BB and TDK. And he let Ra's Al Ghul die when he could have saved him. That is the same as killing IMHO.

I know, and I thought that was very hypocritical to begin with. But what you're doing here, is basing everything off of assumption. I'm not assuming the Joker is bland, he just is. I'm not assuming he doesn't have as much of a sense of humor, cause it's apparent. Sure, he makes some jokes here and there in TDK, but it doesn't mean it's true to his character as a prankster.


In Begins, I didn't like the full portrayal of The Scarecrow. Sure, it worked for what they were going for, but the character himself wasn't used to his full potential. Now, with the Joker, he was used to his full potential, and he still seemed kind of bland to me. Sure, he had some jokes, but they still weren't great. Yeah, he made a scheme, but it wasn't all that epic. Yes, he was confronted by Batman, but it just wasn't as amazing as it should have been. I guess you can say I was underwhelmed by it all.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Ahhhh, my bad, I thought it was after. I's been a few months since I watched the movie. Well, I guess I didn't find that quote funny at all, then. Again, I see it as The Joker getting under the guards skin, so he can attempt to break out, not a "OMG, I'm going to make a joke, cause I'm The Joker".


I was just asking, can I not? I don't care about being 100% faithful either, as I LOVE Returns, but just because The Joker has some tendencies leaning more towards the first appearances, doesn't make it a good translation of the character. It was more of a way to get my point across.

I know, and I thought that was very hypocritical to begin with. But what you're doing here, is basing everything off of assumption. I'm not assuming the Joker is bland, he just is. I'm not assuming he doesn't have as much of a sense of humor, cause it's apparent. Sure, he makes some jokes here and there in TDK, but it doesn't mean it's true to his character as a prankster.


In Begins, I didn't like the full portrayal of The Scarecrow. Sure, it worked for what they were going for, but the character himself wasn't used to his full potential. Now, with the Joker, he was used to his full potential, and he still seemed kind of bland to me. Sure, he had some jokes, but they still weren't great. Yeah, he made a scheme, but it wasn't all that epic. Yes, he was confronted by Batman, but it just wasn't as amazing as it should have been. I guess you can say I was underwhelmed by it all.

Bland? So a guy who wears a purple suit and clown makeup while engaging in a bunch of over the top terrorist activity is somehow bland? Excuse me while I...

And the Joker's humor was pretty freaking evident in the movie. The theater I was in was constantly cracking up at many of his antics and lines. And this was during the movie's 2nd weekend, so it wasn't a bunch of Nolan fanboys. It was a bunch of Joe Six Pack's. Just because you didn't like the humor doesn't mean it wasn't there.

By the way, Nolan's Joker is not just influenced by the first appearances of the character. It's also influenced by The Killing Joke and many other stories from the last 20-25 years.

 

[Travesty]

Bland? So a guy who wears a purple suit and clown makeup while engaging in a bunch of over the top terrorist activity is somehow bland? Excuse me while I...

I thought Two-Face in Forever was bland, yet, he wore a bright two tone suit, HUGE purple bubble-gum scar on his face, and had many terrorist activities. He was "bland", as in it didn't stimulate me at all.

And the Joker's humor was pretty freaking evident in the movie. The theater I was in was constantly cracking up at many of his antics and lines. And this was during the movie's 2nd weekend, so it wasn't a bunch of Nolan fanboys. It was a bunch of Joe Six Pack's. Just because you didn't like the humor doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Just because the humor was there, doesn't mean it wasn't bland.

By the way, Nolan's Joker is not just influenced by the first appearances of the character. It's also influenced by The Killing Joke and many other stories from the last 20-25 years.

Cool? I don't care, I know there were more influences, I still think this is the most bland interpretation of Joker I have ever seen. Yeah, there was some good parts to him, but the overall package just screams dull.