Comics Why do people hate Carnage?

[C. Pumpkins]

And marvel writers have really been screwing up with the spider-man characters.

Gwen Stacy having sex with Norman Osborn.

The Scorpion becoming venom

Spider-man making a deal with the devil

Yeah, tell me about it. The Stacy / Osborn thing irks me more than even the devil deal, I think. Well, hold on... NO, nevermind don't want to think about it. I'm typing about smaller things, like Jackpot beating up Shocker or something like that. I really hate that.

I like him. He's a spree killer and a sadist with an alien life form that gives him superpowers. You don't need too much depth with that character. Had a ****** childhood and grew into a monster. He's not different from any real spree killers that exist in the world, just as fleshed out. Far superior as a character to the eddie brock version of venom. Eddie is a one note wonder that's never had any decent character other than being a whiny child. Eddie vs. Cleatus? Cleatus every day of the week and twice on sunday. There's just no comparison.

He doesn't need something deep. He loves to murder and cause pain so he does it? What's there not to understand about it? He doesn't cover things up or make apologies. Some villains need deep motivation but that depends on their goals, if you goal is pain and death what more do you need than a love of causing pain and death?

yeah, I'll agree with you about Cletus over Eddie. Venom knew who Spidey was that's why there was so much tension there to begin with. Well, plus the whole black costume thing made him more menacing, but that was the costume, not Eddie.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Probably because he's a one-dimensional character.

This. I used to love Venom & Carnage, but overuse/overexposure and writing that made Spidey look like a tool became off-putting.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I love Venom, but I don't like Carnage. Carnage is pretty much Venom without the complexities and nuances. Venom's symbiote gives him the power and knowledge of Spider-Man. Carnage's symbiote is just the source of his powers. Venom has an all-consuming hatred of Peter Parker, but Carnage just kills indiscriminately. Venom represents what Spider-Man would be like if he gave in to his dark side, but Carnage has no deeper meaning.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I like him. He's a spree killer and a sadist with an alien life form that gives him superpowers. You don't need too much depth with that character. Had a ****** childhood and grew into a monster. He's not different from any real spree killers that exist in the world, just as fleshed out. Far superior as a character to the eddie brock version of venom. Eddie is a one note wonder that's never had any decent character other than being a whiny child. Eddie vs. Cleatus? Cleatus every day of the week and twice on sunday. There's just no comparison.

He doesn't need something deep. He loves to murder and cause pain so he does it? What's there not to understand about it? He doesn't cover things up or make apologies. Some villains need deep motivation but that depends on their goals, if you goal is pain and death what more do you need than a love of causing pain and death?

Venom is a one-note character that should have been used as a one-shot villain is AMS#300 and then killed off. The only reason he wasn't is the same reason so much crap exists in entertainment, the almighty dollar sign. The kids reading the comic though Venom was "cool" and the character sold books. The only problem is how do you make such a weak character legitimate? Turn him into a brain-eating, anti-hero, lethal-protector caricature. Unbelievably, the character is still popular.

Carnage is even more single-note than Venom. The character would have been fine for one appearance and that's it, but no, the dollar signs rolled in again and the character made big bucks. How do you tell interesting stories about such a vapid, cipher, cardboard cut-out of a character? It's possible, if some talented writer had taken the time and effort, but no one ever did and so the character remained the same boring, stagnant mess as always. That is why Carnage (and to a lesser extent, Venom) is an awful "character".

 

[Ultra Lantern]

I don't hate Carnage.I think he and Venom are good Spiderman villians.

 

[Brain Damage]

I like him. He's a spree killer and a sadist with an alien life form that gives him superpowers. You don't need too much depth with that character. Had a ****** childhood and grew into a monster. He's not different from any real spree killers that exist in the world, just as fleshed out. Far superior as a character to the eddie brock version of venom. Eddie is a one note wonder that's never had any decent character other than being a whiny child. Eddie vs. Cleatus? Cleatus every day of the week and twice on sunday. There's just no comparison.

He doesn't need something deep. He loves to murder and cause pain so he does it? What's there not to understand about it? He doesn't cover things up or make apologies. Some villains need deep motivation but that depends on their goals, if you goal is pain and death what more do you need than a love of causing pain and death?

This. Not the most revolutionary character in the history of literature, but sure as hell an interesting on. Just cause he doesn't act behind eight different layers of secret motives doesnt mean hes not a fleshed out character.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I enjoy Carnage. The character just suffers from the same syndrome that Venom suffered from..."Writer-itis". Which means in the hands of certain writers he's good and in others the character can just be utterly awful.

I started reading Spider-Man comics monthly right at the beginning of Maximum Carnage so I kind of always had a soft spot for the character.

I've heard that the recent miniseries was really good so I'm going to have to hit the dollar bins at the next comics show and pick that up.

 

[Vid Electricz]

This. Not the most revolutionary character in the history of literature, but sure as hell an interesting on. Just cause he doesn't act behind eight different layers of secret motives doesnt mean hes not a fleshed out character.

See, that's the thing. The character was interesting for his first appearance... but as a one-dimensional character, how do you continue to tell interesting stories with him without treading over the same path over and over and over? You don't, the character becomes a one-trick pony and that's that.

 

[Godzilla2014]

My problem with Carnage is the way he is characterized and utilized in the stories he appears in. Far too often, he is used like a slasher-movie villain, a plot device to kill people. I think he would work better if he were characterized more like a psychologically realistic serial killer, like if Ted Bundy or Buffalo Bill from The Silence Of The Lambs had the power of a symbiote.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Indeed, that would be interesting. Creepy, but interesting. I was fascinated by the first carnage story where both Spidey and Venom were nearly powerless against an unstoppable, psychopathic force of nature. It was an interesting dilemma, a character the could appear and disappear, popping up at complete random whose only motive was to cause chaos and destruction. Added to this is Spidey's hard-line vow of not killing, ever and you've got an interesting story on your hands. The story was wrapped up all nice and tidy with a little bow on top though, with Carnage living to escape and kill another day. I would have preferred this be the character's first and last appearance- or maybe they could have kept him for a few more arcs, but eventually, I would have had SOME sort of thematic element introduced where instead of becoming a convenient, serialized member of the rogues gallery, his story came to an end, providing some sort of closure. Instead, we have a character that outlives it's usefulness and is driven into the ground, but still remains popular 'cause he "looks cool".

 

[Godzilla2014]

Indeed, that would be interesting. Creepy, but interesting. I was fascinated by the first carnage story where both Spidey and Venom were nearly powerless against an unstoppable, psychopathic force of nature. It was an interesting dilemma, a character the could appear and disappear, popping up at complete random whose only motive was to cause chaos and destruction. Added to this is Spidey's hard-line vow of not killing, ever and you've got an interesting story on your hands. The story was wrapped up all nice and tidy with a little bow on top though, with Carnage living to escape and kill another day. I would have preferred this be the character's first and last appearance- or maybe they could have kept him for a few more arcs, but eventually, I would have had SOME sort of thematic element introduced where instead of becoming a convenient, serialized member of the rogues gallery, his story came to an end, providing some sort of closure. Instead, we have a character that outlives it's usefulness and is driven into the ground, but still remains popular 'cause he "looks cool".

I think if he had also been written with more depth, that would have added a lot to the character. Sadly, over the years, Carnage was simply used as a plot device to rack up a body count, which is utterly boring to me. Carnage is, conceptually, treading thin ice as a symbiotic villain with Venom already around. Thus, he needs more to justify his existence than most to avoid being redundant.

 

[moraldeficiency]

See, that's the thing. The character was interesting for his first appearance... but as a one-dimensional character, how do you continue to tell interesting stories with him without treading over the same path over and over and over? You don't, the character becomes a one-trick pony and that's that.

This would be the same argument for calling the joker a one note pony. Really most villains are one note ponys, either they:

A. Are mad at a hero for some past offense (real or imagined) so they want to destroy them
B. Want to take over the world/universe/the local starbucks
C. Enjoy being evil and causing pain

Take your pick they are almost all within one of these three categories. Cleatus is a spree killer, he just wants death and pain. Really would be by far more dangerous for someone like this to be let out then someone that would do something more diabolical. Cleatus is like a biohazard that has to be contained cause every moment more and more people will die, it's a guarantee. I think that works very well as a device for stories. If all of Spider-Man's villains from all time were released at once, priority one would be to take down carnage cause his body count would probably be worse than the rest put together. Peter Parker is complex and he's all about saving lives, every life. Cleatus is simple and direct and wants everyone (probably himself as well) to die and die horribly. That contrast alone works quite well in my mind.

 

[Godzilla2014]

This would be the same argument for calling the joker a one note pony. Really most villains are one note ponys, either they:

A. Are mad at a hero for some past offense (real or imagined) so they want to destroy them
B. Want to take over the world/universe/the local starbucks
C. Enjoy being evil and causing pain

Take your pick they are almost all within one of these three categories. Cleatus is a spree killer, he just wants death and pain. Really would be by far more dangerous for someone like this to be let out then someone that would do something more diabolical. Cleatus is like a biohazard that has to be contained cause every moment more and more people will die, it's a guarantee. I think that works very well as a device for stories. If all of Spider-Man's villains from all time were released at once, priority one would be to take down carnage cause his body count would probably be worse than the rest put together. Peter Parker is complex and he's all about saving lives, every life. Cleatus is simple and direct and wants everyone (probably himself as well) to die and die horribly. That contrast alone works quite well in my mind.

For me, Carnage tends to just bore me because he's usually not used as much other than a generic slasher. I would prefer to see Carnage acting more like a real-world serial killer, with a more complex methodology than "stab, stab again".

 

[Vid Electricz]

This would be the same argument for calling the joker a one note pony. Really most villains are one note ponys, either they:

A. Are mad at a hero for some past offense (real or imagined) so they want to destroy them
B. Want to take over the world/universe/the local starbucks
C. Enjoy being evil and causing pain

Take your pick they are almost all within one of these three categories. Cleatus is a spree killer, he just wants death and pain. Really would be by far more dangerous for someone like this to be let out then someone that would do something more diabolical. Cleatus is like a biohazard that has to be contained cause every moment more and more people will die, it's a guarantee. I think that works very well as a device for stories. If all of Spider-Man's villains from all time were released at once, priority one would be to take down carnage cause his body count would probably be worse than the rest put together. Peter Parker is complex and he's all about saving lives, every life. Cleatus is simple and direct and wants everyone (probably himself as well) to die and die horribly. That contrast alone works quite well in my mind.

That's a great analogy, the biohazard thing. Your the description of Kassady and Parker being polar opposites does indeed make for an intriguing story. The only problem is that it was done with his first appearance...and second...and third...and then on a massive scale in Maximum Carnage and so on and so forth. It's just repetition with no new ideas brought to the plate.

The Joker, though he may also be an agent of chaos and destruction, has his originality and ingenuity working in his favor. He was one of the original "wild card" super villains. While Carnage is obviously inspired by the Joker, he's also a derivation of Venom, so he does not have any originality or notoriety working in his favor. I consider the immovable object/unstoppable force theme that he and Batman share to the best invented in the world of superhero comics.

 

[shinlyle]

Hate him. I liked the FIRST Carnage story.After that, they made him way too powerful. It was annoying. Personally, Carnage should have ended like this:

Carnage: Dead after the first story arc. He hasn't done anything worthwhile since then, IMHO.

 

[moraldeficiency]

For me, Carnage tends to just bore me because he's usually not used as much other than a generic slasher. I would prefer to see Carnage acting more like a real-world serial killer, with a more complex methodology than "stab, stab again".

Well the problem with your reasoning is that you think carnage is a serial killer. He isn't. Serial killers kill types generally just women due to unresolved sexual dysfunctions. Carnage is a spree killer. They operate from a complete suicidal sociopath's perspective. He kills everyone that he can get to on a very direct path to probable death to himself.

Besides, it works for wolverine and all of X-Force. Hell carnage could like be the leader and moral compass for most of the X-Men sadly.

Carnage is repetative in his methodology, but then we could say the same for Dr. Doom. What should be done with him is the idea of what he is. He isn't human. He's more of a wild animal. And really Marvel doesn't have too many villains with that mentality, the whole "I just love to murder" thing. Place him in different situations and with different people and you could get some very interesting stories. Especially because he'll kill bad guys with just as much glee as heroes. There's a great deal of story potential there. The trick is to not treat him like a big complex character and more like a wild man eating lion that's escaped from the zoo and hasn't eaten in a few days. The character should come from the people dealing with the issue not in the lion itself.

 

[MJXSM_FOREVER!!]

A lot off spider-man villains have poor motives other then Carnage doc ock only does what he does because he felt under appreciated as a child and got insane after the explosion in amazing spider-man issue 3.

 

[November Rain]

Probably because he's a one-dimensional character.

this

 

[MJXSM_FOREVER!!]

Venom is a one-note character that should have been used as a one-shot villain is AMS#300 and then killed off. The only reason he wasn't is the same reason so much crap exists in entertainment, the almighty dollar sign. The kids reading the comic though Venom was "cool" and the character sold books. The only problem is how do you make such a weak character legitimate? Turn him into a brain-eating, anti-hero, lethal-protector caricature. Unbelievably, the character is still popular.

Carnage is even more single-note than Venom. The character would have been fine for one appearance and that's it, but no, the dollar signs rolled in again and the character made big bucks. How do you tell interesting stories about such a vapid, cipher, cardboard cut-out of a character? It's possible, if some talented writer had taken the time and effort, but no one ever did and so the character remained the same boring, stagnant mess as always. That is why Carnage (and to a lesser extent, Venom) is an awful "character".

It,s not about the look it also because Venom and Carnage where a giant threat to spider-man that they became so popular. Most villain such as hobgoblin and Doc Ock are only popular because you know they might always win ore get away when they are fighting spider-man that how ever does not mean that they are the best characters. Let,s just compare Doc Ocks history and the one of the Vulture. Adrian Tooms gets cheated on by the man who is helping him making a device that can make humans fly. Being that Adrian Toomes did not get any credit for his invention he tries to get money by turning to crimes. Another reason as to why he turns to crime is because he has relatives in a crime family and they become the only people that he feels he can trust ore depend on. Later on he decides to take revenge on the man who took the credit for his work. He fails but the fraud gets exposed so justice is served. Later on he uses his desire to become younger and kill spider-man to find a way to suck the youth out of Peter Parker so, spider-man gets weaker but Toomes stronger and younger.

Now octopus story is that he always felt under appreciated, and one day when he has an accident he get,s insane and start to do a bunch of criminal activities. And that,s pretty much all their is to him in terms of motives and personality.

 

[Jick]

Why do people hate Carnage?
Because, apparently, they want all of their villains to be complex characters with such understandable reasons to do what they do and, from what I see, Spidey can't have a villain like that, even though there are people like that in the world, already.
I don't see people complaining like that from Zsasz.

Carnage to Spidey is like Nemesis in Resident Evil. Whenever he appears, you fear. If you're alone, you run or do whatever is in your reach to slow him down and just hope that works.
I love Carnage, but I don't expect more from him than what he already provides. He is a wild, unstopable destructible force who Spidey fears and should be viewed as such.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I loved Doc Ock year one. That showed some damn good motivation for the character.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Hate him. I liked the FIRST Carnage story.After that, they made him way too powerful. It was annoying. Personally, Carnage should have ended like this:

Carnage: Dead after the first story arc. He hasn't done anything worthwhile since then, IMHO.

Agreed. The biggest challenge for Spider-Man to stop Carnage is trying to find him and match wits with him, not getting Venom to help stop him. Furthermore, Carnage's creation lead to Venom becoming an anti-hero, which was a bad idea.

Well the problem with your reasoning is that you think carnage is a serial killer. He isn't. Serial killers kill types generally just women due to unresolved sexual dysfunctions. Carnage is a spree killer. They operate from a complete suicidal sociopath's perspective. He kills everyone that he can get to on a very direct path to probable death to himself.

Besides, it works for wolverine and all of X-Force. Hell carnage could like be the leader and moral compass for most of the X-Men sadly.

Carnage is repetative in his methodology, but then we could say the same for Dr. Doom. What should be done with him is the idea of what he is. He isn't human. He's more of a wild animal. And really Marvel doesn't have too many villains with that mentality, the whole "I just love to murder" thing. Place him in different situations and with different people and you could get some very interesting stories. Especially because he'll kill bad guys with just as much glee as heroes. There's a great deal of story potential there. The trick is to not treat him like a big complex character and more like a wild man eating lion that's escaped from the zoo and hasn't eaten in a few days. The character should come from the people dealing with the issue not in the lion itself.

No, my point about Carnage is that with most serial killers, there's a battle of wits between the hero and the killer. With Carnage, this does not apply, and its just a battle of muscle. Carnage's creation led to Venom teaming up with Spider-Man and then becoming a full anti-hero. It was a bunch of crap.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Why do people hate Carnage?
Because, apparently, they want all of their villains to be complex characters with such understandable reasons to do what they do and, from what I see, Spidey can't have a villain like that, even though there are people like that in the world, already.
I don't see people complaining like that from Zsasz.

Carnage to Spidey is like Nemesis in Resident Evil. Whenever he appears, you fear. If you're alone, you run or do whatever is in your reach to slow him down and just hope that works.
I love Carnage, but I don't expect more from him than what he already provides. He is a wild, unstopable destructible force who Spidey fears and should be viewed as such.

Yeah, but how many times can you read the same story over and over and over? Carnage shows up, kills people, Spidey stops him. repeat.

While with the other villains there is some repetition (given the nature of the medium), at least there is some variation in their plots.

That's why Carnage, as a concept is interesting, but in execution (no pun) falls flat.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Carnage to Spidey is like Nemesis in Resident Evil. Whenever he appears, you fear. If you're alone, you run or do whatever is in your reach to slow him down and just hope that works.
I love Carnage, but I don't expect more from him than what he already provides. He is a wild, unstopable destructible force who Spidey fears and should be viewed as such.

Actually, I would say that of Venom, myself.

Yeah, but how many times can you read the same story over and over and over? Carnage shows up, kills people, Spidey stops him. repeat.

While with the other villains there is some repetition (given the nature of the medium), at least there is some variation in their plots.

That's why Carnage, as a concept is interesting, but in execution (no pun) falls flat.

Agreed.

 

[moraldeficiency]

No, my point about Carnage is that with most serial killers, there's a battle of wits between the hero and the killer. With Carnage, this does not apply, and its just a battle of muscle. Carnage's creation led to Venom teaming up with Spider-Man and then becoming a full anti-hero. It was a bunch of crap.

Ah, I guess I misunderstood, it seemed like you were saying you wanted carnage to be like a serial killer and that would be silly considering that's not at all who he is. I don't mind having peter have some enemies that aren't all battle of wits types. He's already got plenty of those. A few just crazy scary guys that he has to out muscle from time to time isn't the worst thing. Right now all he's really got in that category would be like the Rhino and Tombstone vs almost every other person in his rogues gallery. Diversity isn't a bad thing. Multiple threats, multiple motivations, multiple ways spider-man needs to defeat them can't be a bad thing to have going on.

Eddie Brock has always just been a bunch of crap. Crappy person, crappy motivation, crappy everything.