Comics Why do people hate Carnage?

[Godzilla2014]

Ah, I guess I misunderstood, it seemed like you were saying you wanted carnage to be like a serial killer and that would be silly considering that's not at all who he is. I don't mind having peter have some enemies that aren't all battle of wits types. He's already got plenty of those. A few just crazy scary guys that he has to out muscle from time to time isn't the worst thing. Right now all he's really got in that category would be like the Rhino and Tombstone vs almost every other person in his rogues gallery. Diversity isn't a bad thing. Multiple threats, multiple motivations, multiple ways spider-man needs to defeat them can't be a bad thing to have going on.

Eddie Brock has always just been a bunch of crap. Crappy person, crappy motivation, crappy everything.

I'm sorry but Carnage has always been crap to me. He's repetitive, shallow, and boring. Eddie Brock at least has more dimension than Carnage ever did. He has some humanity, an interesting dynamic with Spider-Man, things Carnage has never had. He's pretty much a combination of Venom and Joker, without the things that make either of them interesting.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I dont hate Carnage, but as many people have said, he is very one dimensional. He could be used once in a while but he was way, way over used back in the day. He is used best when used sparingly.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm sorry but Carnage has always been crap to me. He's repetitive, shallow, and boring. Eddie Brock at least has more dimension than Carnage ever did. He has some humanity, an interesting dynamic with Spider-Man, things Carnage has never had. He's pretty much a combination of Venom and Joker, without the things that make either of them interesting.

Don't be sorry personal opinion is open to everyone of every taste.

That said cleatus is freaking robert deniro compared to eddie brock. Explain brock's motivation in any way that makes sense. He wants to kill spider-man because he caught a serial killer and took away from the fact that eddie had a serial confessor. That's the worst motivation to hold a grudge of all time. At least cleatus was viciously abused as a child until he became a monster that loves death in all it's forms.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I dont hate Carnage, but as many people have said, he is very one dimensional. He could be used once in a while but he was way, way over used back in the day. He is used best when used sparingly.

Agreed. With Carnage, a little goes a very long way.

Don't be sorry personal opinion is open to everyone of every taste.

That said cleatus is freaking robert deniro compared to eddie brock. Explain brock's motivation in any way that makes sense. He wants to kill spider-man because he caught a serial killer and took away from the fact that eddie had a serial confessor. That's the worst motivation to hold a grudge of all time. At least cleatus was viciously abused as a child until he became a monster that loves death in all it's forms.

And Norman Osborn originally wanted to kill Spider-Man to take over the mob. Eddie Brock was an ambitious reporter whose life was ruined by Sin Eater's capture by Spider-Man. He couldn't take responsibility for his failure as a result of that ambition, so he blames Spider-Man. Not the strongest reason for grudge in and of itself, but you're also forgetting that Venom is a binary entity composed of Eddie Brock and the symbiote. So between the two of them, he cost Venom his job, his wife, and even tried to kill him, and that's before Venom even attacked Spider-Man. And there have been a few events in the meantime that have added to his reasons to hate Spider-Man. That's plenty of motivation.

 

[moraldeficiency]

And Norman Osborn originally wanted to kill Spider-Man to take over the mob. Eddie Brock was an ambitious reporter whose life was ruined by Sin Eater's capture by Spider-Man. He couldn't take responsibility for his failure as a result of that ambition, so he blames Spider-Man. Not the strongest reason for grudge in and of itself, but you're also forgetting that Venom is a binary entity composed of Eddie Brock and the symbiote. So between the two of them, he cost Venom his job, his wife, and even tried to kill him, and that's before Venom even attacked Spider-Man. And there have been a few events in the meantime that have added to his reasons to hate Spider-Man. That's plenty of motivation.

Taking over things because you want power is a much better motivation.

Yes, and that may have worked for a while but after freaking years of this, eddie has gone beyond delusional and passed into fantastically moronic.

I'm forgetting nothing, check my other post which I mention how eddie's stupidity tainted a once good alien into what venom is today. Remember the symbiote part of him was exiled because it DIDN'T want to kill people. When Peter rejected it it's first conscious act alone was still to save him. It didn't become evil till it got a look at eddie's mind and emotions. I made the point that there's a lot to go with now that's it's with someone who has more than base and stupid emotions.

The motivation is paper thin. He's killed far too many innocent people for him to really have any beef with anyone. He's just a spoiled child whining because he never grew up into a man. Carnage (the "simple" symbiote) is vastly more complex as a character. But you know who's an actual great character full of complexity and interesting? Flash Thompson.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Taking over things because you want power is a much better motivation.

Yes, and that may have worked for a while but after freaking years of this, eddie has gone beyond delusional and passed into fantastically moronic.

I'm forgetting nothing, check my other post which I mention how eddie's stupidity tainted a once good alien into what venom is today. Remember the symbiote part of him was exiled because it DIDN'T want to kill people. When Peter rejected it it's first conscious act alone was still to save him. It didn't become evil till it got a look at eddie's mind and emotions. I made the point that there's a lot to go with now that's it's with someone who has more than base and stupid emotions.

The motivation is paper thin. He's killed far too many innocent people for him to really have any beef with anyone. He's just a spoiled child whining because he never grew up into a man. Carnage (the "simple" symbiote) is vastly more complex as a character. But you know who's an actual great character full of complexity and interesting? Flash Thompson.

My point is that Eddie Brock has a character, he wants to kill Spider-Man because he blames Spider-Man for ruining his life. People have murdered others for less in the real world.
Venom is an obsessed, driven character who will stop at nothing to achieve his goal of killing Spider-Man. At his best written, Venom is Eddie Brock standing on top of a tower screaming, "**** YOU!" Great Power with No Responsibility. He is a personification of Spider-Man's dark side, his twisted reflection. That is a more interesting dynamic, to me, than a random killer who goes around killing people in the most simplistic and boring fashion, as Carnage is often used as.
Carnage is far too often used as a generic slasher given a symbiote, and the potentially interesting facets of his character like his nihilistic outlook on the world or his use of violence as a means to control his environment are often ignored in favor of the simple killer.

 

[November Rain]

i would actual say kletus cassidy is a far more interesting character than carnage

heck if carnage came first and venom second, it would make far more sense personally.

i.e. spidey gets the venom symbiote to deal with carnage and it corrupts him etc leading to brock gettign it.

then carnage would be an evil mommy figure with more motivation towards both spiderman and the venom symbiote

but i think carnage should have a personal motivation towards someone in the spidey verse, perhaps that female cop detective dewolfe, it would help his character out alot with regards to acceptance in this day and age

carnage has the potential to be spiderman's joker but he lacks...flair

 

[moraldeficiency]

My point is that Eddie Brock has a character, he wants to kill Spider-Man because he blames Spider-Man for ruining his life. People have murdered others for less in the real world.
Venom is an obsessed, driven character who will stop at nothing to achieve his goal of killing Spider-Man. At his best written, Venom is Eddie Brock standing on top of a tower screaming, "**** YOU!" Great Power with No Responsibility. He is a personification of Spider-Man's dark side, his twisted reflection. That is a more interesting dynamic, to me, than a random killer who goes around killing people in the most simplistic and boring fashion, as Carnage is often used as.
Carnage is far too often used as a generic slasher given a symbiote, and the potentially interesting facets of his character like his nihilistic outlook on the world or his use of violence as a means to control his environment are often ignored in favor of the simple killer.

Eddie's not smart enough to be a dark spider-man. Doc Ock is closer to a true opposite or norman osborne.

If we're talking about complete opposites than cleatus fits the bill perfectly. No real thought process, love of murder and pain, death wish. Brutality making up for lack of brains.

Brock's motivations may have worked a bit at first but as time goes on they've gotten thinner not stronger. Unlike your example of osborn who at first just wanted spider-man out of his way but then as he was beaten his ego made Spider-Man/Peter Parker a true obsession. At this point Eddie killing spider-man cause he wanted his sneakers would make more sense than his grudge.

If you like him, that's great, really everyone's entitled to their own opinion but in terms of eddie vs. cleatus, cleatus has the edge in motivation, backstory and character at this point by miles. I used to like venom (eddie version) but that was when I was younger and the idea of evil brain eating spider-man was cool to me, but now it just seems silly. His motivation and purpose is drastically lacking, his powers just aren't there anymore in terms of a threat and he's just gone on to long singing his same silly song. They haven't expanded on him they've just reinforced what an idiot he is for being him. How like a small whiny child his thought process has turned him into someone better fit for crying on rickki lake than being like a super-villain. At least peter's other villains have either a good motivation or the balls to just admit to enjoying being evil or wanting power.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Eddie's not smart enough to be a dark spider-man. Doc Ock is closer to a true opposite or norman osborne.

If we're talking about complete opposites than cleatus fits the bill perfectly. No real thought process, love of murder and pain, death wish. Brutality making up for lack of brains.

Brock's motivations may have worked a bit at first but as time goes on they've gotten thinner not stronger. Unlike your example of osborn who at first just wanted spider-man out of his way but then as he was beaten his ego made Spider-Man/Peter Parker a true obsession. At this point Eddie killing spider-man cause he wanted his sneakers would make more sense than his grudge.

If you like him, that's great, really everyone's entitled to their own opinion but in terms of eddie vs. cleatus, cleatus has the edge in motivation, backstory and character at this point by miles. I used to like venom (eddie version) but that was when I was younger and the idea of evil brain eating spider-man was cool to me, but now it just seems silly. His motivation and purpose is drastically lacking, his powers just aren't there anymore in terms of a threat and he's just gone on to long singing his same silly song. They haven't expanded on him they've just reinforced what an idiot he is for being him. How like a small whiny child his thought process has turned him into someone better fit for crying on rickki lake than being like a super-villain. At least peter's other villains have either a good motivation or the balls to just admit to enjoying being evil or wanting power.

As Venom, Eddie does have all of Peter's memories, and therefore, presumably of his education, so he is indeed as smart as Peter Parker himself is.

For Venom, Peter Parker is his obsession, just as it is for Norman Osborn. He knows far more about Peter than Norman, or anyone else, for that matter. Far more than I think anyone would want to know. In a way, Spider-Man is a part of Venom, if you think about it. All of Peter's memories, his powers, et cetera is all in Venom. That's a lot of what makes him interesting to me.

 

[moraldeficiency]

As Venom, Eddie does have all of Peter's memories, and therefore, presumably of his education, so he is indeed as smart as Peter Parker himself is.

For Venom, Peter Parker is his obsession, just as it is for Norman Osborn. He knows far more about Peter than Norman, or anyone else, for that matter. Far more than I think anyone would want to know. In a way, Spider-Man is a part of Venom, if you think about it. All of Peter's memories, his powers, et cetera is all in Venom. That's a lot of what makes him interesting to me.

Memories are not thought process and do not make up intelligence. You don't problem solve better because you've been through a lot. If that was true then eddie would realize that he's been a moron a long time ago.

Yes but norman has a good reason a ego complex that makes him love/hate peter. Also he was assigned to keep peter in check by that shadow group a long time ago.

For eddie it isn't that peter wins it's that he "hurts" people by his judgement. It's just piss poor reasoning by a third grade standard.

So by your standard with that memory thing then eddie<gargan<thompson cause each has the memories and intelligence of the ones before them. In fact if your theory made any sense then flash thompson is the smartest person in the MU because he has the combined intelligence of franklin richards, reed richards, she hulk, susan richards, peter parker, eddie brock, mac gargan and himself (along with those others he's bonded with). What? He doesn't? Then I guess your memory equals intelligence thing doesn't really count for much except that the symbiote knows the secrets of it's former hosts.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Memories are not thought process and do not make up intelligence. You don't problem solve better because you've been through a lot. If that was true then eddie would realize that he's been a moron a long time ago.

Yes but norman has a good reason a ego complex that makes him love/hate peter. Also he was assigned to keep peter in check by that shadow group a long time ago.

For eddie it isn't that peter wins it's that he "hurts" people by his judgement. It's just piss poor reasoning by a third grade standard.

So by your standard with that memory thing then eddie<gargan<thompson cause each has the memories and intelligence of the ones before them. In fact if your theory made any sense then flash thompson is the smartest person in the MU because he has the combined intelligence of franklin richards, reed richards, she hulk, susan richards, peter parker, eddie brock, mac gargan and himself (along with those others he's bonded with). What? He doesn't? Then I guess your memory equals intelligence thing doesn't really count for much except that the symbiote knows the secrets of it's former hosts.

Even forgetting his acquisition of Peter's knowledge, Eddie was an investigative journalist. His primary downfall was his ambition, and when he saw the opportunity with Emil Gregg claiming to be the Sin-Eater, he couldn't pass it up. As Venom, his ambitiousness turns to killing Spider-Man.

Venom hates Spider-Man because he ruined his own life, but he refuses to accept responsibility, and he uses Spider-Man as a scapegoat for that responsibility. He is the ultimate hypocrite, this is the point of the character. He says he hates to kill innocents, but he does nothing to non-lethally incapacitate them when they are in his way.

 

[Jick]

Eddie's not smart enough to be a dark spider-man. Doc Ock is closer to a true opposite or norman osborne.

I think of Ock or Norman as the dark Peter Parker. The way he would be if had gone wrong.

I see Venom as the dark Spidey, which would be if he had kept the black suit. What Spidey would do with his powers if he went the dark route. Venom mirros that since he has the same powers and a twisted version of ''innocent protection''.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I think of Ock or Norman as the dark Peter Parker. The way he would be if had gone wrong.

I see Venom as the dark Spidey, which would be if he had kept the black suit. What Spidey would do with his powers if he went the dark route. Venom mirros that since he has the same powers.

Agreed!

 

[Jick]

Yeah, but how many times can you read the same story over and over and over? Carnage shows up, kills people, Spidey stops him. repeat.

While with the other villains there is some repetition (given the nature of the medium), at least there is some variation in their plots.

That's why Carnage, as a concept is interesting, but in execution (no pun) falls flat.

I don't entirely disagree. What I think killed Carnage was the Maximum Carnage series, which was nothing more than a killing fest. But Carnage wasn't so frequent in the books like Venom was. Whenever he appeared, here and there, it was interesting to me, cause we could see that Spidey wouldn't pull back any punches, but punches and kicks were rarely enough and he had to seek ways to take him down and would do whatever was necessary to do it, but with maximum caution, even teaming up with someone else who understand the symbiote but hates him so much.

He takes Carnage more seriously than the other villains when he fights, cause he knows there won't be second chances. If he takes a wrong step, he will be killed.

In the most recent appearance, when Spidey heard that Cletus was alive and that he recovered the symbiote, he said he'd wrap himself in a web cocoon. Spidey doesn't fear his other villains like that. It's what makes me like his enmity with Carnage.

I don't know what is happening right now in the comics with his new series, but as long as they don't oversaturate us with him, then maybe he can work.

Actually, I would say that of Venom, myself

I don't say that of Venom because Spidey can defeat him alone. From what I recall, Spidey never defeated Carnage without someone's help or interference.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I don't entirely disagree. What I think killed Carnage was the Maximum Carnage series, which was nothing more than a killing fest. But Carnage wasn't so frequent in the books like Venom was. Whenever he appeared, here and there, it was interesting to me, cause we could see that Spidey wouldn't pull back any punches, but punches and kicks are rarely enough and he has to seek ways to take him down and would do whatever was necessary to do it, but with maximum caution, even teaming up with someone else who understand the symbiote but hates him so much.

He takes Carnage more seriously than the other villains when he fights, cause he knows there won't be second chances. If he takes a wrong step, he will be killed.

In the most recent appearance, when Spidey heard that Cletus was alive and that he recovered the symbiote, he said he'd wrap himself in a web cocoon. Spidey doesn't fear his other villains like that. It's what makes me like his enmity with Carnage.

I don't know what is happening right now in the comics with his new series, but as long as they don't oversaturate us with him, then maybe he can work.

Personally, I think his biggest fear would be Venom. He knows everything about Spider-Man and he could drop in on him without warning. Carnage generally is just too random for Peter to fear for his personal safety like that. However, if Venom is loose, Peter knows that Eddie is coming after him.

I don't say that of Venom because Spidey can defeat him alone. From what I recall, Spidey never defeated Carnage without someone's help or interference.

He generally needs assistance or something like a sonic gun or flamethrower to stop Venom.

 

[Jick]

Personally, I think his biggest fear would be Venom. He knows everything about Spider-Man and he could drop in on him without warning. Carnage generally is just too random for Peter to fear for his personal safety like that. However, if Venom is loose, Peter knows that Eddie is coming after him.

I'd say it's between Venom and Goblin for those reasons, but currently (and after Carnage's first appearance), I say his biggest fear (regarding fighting villains) is Carnage because we can sense it through his quotes and his actions. He expresses it in the comics. I posted the most recent quote above regarding his concern about Cletus as Carnage (there's others I can't remember specifically), and he always seeks help when has to deal with Carnage. Against Venom, he can deal it. It's hard, he's been knocked out in battle and tossed aside like paper, but he can do it alone as he already has.

Another point is that the other villains keep giving second chances, like wrapping Spidey on ropes to make deals, leaving Spidey to die but not killing and things like that. Even Venom wrapped Spidey on webs in his first appearance, instead of just killing him, to make his point and knocked him uncounscious in later stories. Could have killed Spidey, but didn't. Lost his chance. Like all the others. Carnage doesn't do that. Every strike is to kill. If he catches, he will. Kinda like Morlum.

He felt a similar kind of danger when he first fought Morlum, saying that the punch he received was the most powerful yet, and he has fought the Hulk. He wouldn't quip, make jokes, because the fun was over, and that was serious.

He generally needs assistance or something like a sonic gun or flamethrower to stop Venom.

Yeah, but it's the same for Carnage. What I mean is that Spidey can take him down without someone's interference. Spidey always had someone help him against Carnage, from some superhero to a normal human, who was Cletus childhood friend.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I'd say it's between Venom and Goblin for those reasons, but currently (and after Carnage's first appearance), I say his biggest fear (regarding fighting villains) is Carnage because we can sense it through his quotes and his actions. He expresses it in the comics. I posted the most recent quote above regarding his concern about Cletus as Carnage (there's others I can't remember specifically), and he always seeks help when has to deal with Carnage. Against Venom, he can deal it. It's hard, he's been knocked out in battle and tossed aside like paper, but he can do it alone as he already has.

Another point is that the other villains keep giving second chances, like wrapping Spidey on ropes to make deals, leaving Spidey to die but not killing and things like that. Even Venom wrapped Spidey on webs in his first appearance, instead of just killing him, to make his point and knocked him uncounscious in later stories. Could have killed Spidey, but didn't. Lost his chance. Like all the others. Carnage doesn't do that. Every strike is to kill. If he catches, he will. Kinda like Morlum.

He felt a similar kind of danger when he first fought Morlum, saying that the punch he received was the most powerful yet, and he has fought the Hulk. He wouldn't quip, make jokes, because the fun was over, and that was serious.


Yeah, but it's the same for Carnage. What I mean is that Spidey can take him down without someone's interference. Spidey always had someone help him against Carnage, from some superhero to a normal human, who was Cletus childhood friend.

As far as Venom not immediately killing Spider-Man, I get the feeling that it was sort of like a cat playing with a mouse before it kills it.

 

[Jick]

Me too. I like Venom for that, besides his awesome dark humor. I like that he wants to torture Spidey both physically and mentally.

Instant kill hits and seeing the terrified face of his victim before he kills is Carnage's thing, and only his, I hope.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Even forgetting his acquisition of Peter's knowledge, Eddie was an investigative journalist. His primary downfall was his ambition, and when he saw the opportunity with Emil Gregg claiming to be the Sin-Eater, he couldn't pass it up. As Venom, his ambitiousness turns to killing Spider-Man.

Venom hates Spider-Man because he ruined his own life, but he refuses to accept responsibility, and he uses Spider-Man as a scapegoat for that responsibility. He is the ultimate hypocrite, this is the point of the character. He says he hates to kill innocents, but he does nothing to non-lethally incapacitate them when they are in his way.

Yes and he was a crappy investigative journalist as seen by his big moment being incorrectly unmasking a serial confessor as a serial murder. He was a screw up in his profession as well. Any actual checking that a real investigative journalist is required to do would have revealed the error and prevented brock from screwing himself. His primary down fall then as it is now is his stupidity coupled with his childish whining and refusal to be a man.

I agree, brock is a nonsensical asshat with bad motivation, you're correct in that.

 

[MJXSM_FOREVER!!]

Eddie's not smart enough to be a dark spider-man. Doc Ock is closer to a true opposite or norman osborne.

I actually never understand how the fact that norman and Doc Ock are scientists makes them anti spider-man. I mean just look how many other villains are scientists Robotmaster,Alistair and Spencer Smythe the terrible Tinkerer, The Vulture, Meteor man, the list is endless.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I actually never understand how the fact that norman and Doc Ock are scientists makes them anti spider-man. I mean just look how many other villains are scientists Robotmaster,Alistair and Spencer Smythe the terrible Tinkerer, The Vulture, Meteor man, the list is endless.

Well it's opposites. So peter is smart but very poorly educated and never got a chance to use his brains for much and when he has it's been to help humanity. People like Osborn and Ock have had all the advantages of education and money (norman with his company, ock with grants and such) but rather than helping people they've used their knowledge for selfish and self serving methods.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I don't entirely disagree. What I think killed Carnage was the Maximum Carnage series, which was nothing more than a killing fest. But Carnage wasn't so frequent in the books like Venom was. Whenever he appeared, here and there, it was interesting to me, cause we could see that Spidey wouldn't pull back any punches, but punches and kicks were rarely enough and he had to seek ways to take him down and would do whatever was necessary to do it, but with maximum caution, even teaming up with someone else who understand the symbiote but hates him so much.

He takes Carnage more seriously than the other villains when he fights, cause he knows there won't be second chances. If he takes a wrong step, he will be killed.

In the most recent appearance, when Spidey heard that Cletus was alive and that he recovered the symbiote, he said he'd wrap himself in a web cocoon. Spidey doesn't fear his other villains like that. It's what makes me like his enmity with Carnage.

I don't know what is happening right now in the comics with his new series, but as long as they don't oversaturate us with him, then maybe he can work.

I don't say that of Venom because Spidey can defeat him alone. From what I recall, Spidey never defeated Carnage without someone's help or interference.

The last I saw of Carnage was some dumb story line with "the Sentry" where he grabbed Carnage, flew into space and ripped him in half.

Even with the comic book logic of resurrecting characters from the dead, I'm not sure how you can come back from that.

 

[SpideyInATree]

The last I saw of Carnage was some dumb story line with "the Sentry" where he grabbed Carnage, flew into space and ripped him in half.

Even with the comic book logic of resurrecting characters from the dead, I'm not sure how you can come back from that.

I haven't read the book yet but apparently it gets explained in the latest Carnage miniseries by Zeb Wells and Clayton Crane. I've heard a lot of good things and have been trying to hunt the issues down but cannot find them.

 

[Jick]

The last I saw of Carnage was some dumb story line with "the Sentry" where he grabbed Carnage, flew into space and ripped him in half.

Even with the comic book logic of resurrecting characters from the dead, I'm not sure how you can come back from that.

Yep, there's a new mini series and that is explained there. His upper half was kept alive by the symbiote and recovered by some company to use the symbiote to make some advanced armor for their personal security and prosthetic limbs for those who lost it. But they also kept Cletus upper body in recovery and gave him prosthetic legs. In the final issues, he reunited himself with the symbiote once again while Spidey was really pissed that the company didn't destroy everything when they had the chance.

 

[Hypestyle]

^^^seriously? good lord.. I'm done with carnage regardless, but that's just out there, LOL..