why hal jordan is the best choise for green lantern film

[Warhammer]

And i don't see how i said my own statement was dumb.
Maybe you misread.

 

[Kurosawa]

Its so DUMB, so ridiculously pretty dumb as you say, that you want them to do it in a movie.

I guess that means you think your own arguments are dumb.

Also, Kyle is no longer Green Lantern. He's Ion now. Guy Gardener does not work on Earth.

Yep. And the Corps policy is now apparently two Lanterns for each space sector whenever possible, especially in busy sectors like 2814. Just like Cops have partners. That's pretty sweet.

I'm not crazy about Kyle, but I probably wouldn't mind him at all if they weren't always killing and/or screwing over other Lanterns to build him up. The screwed every other Green Lantern or GL type over just to pump Kyle up. It's more than just Hal fans that have problems with Kyle.

My fave GL is the original actually.

 

[GL1]

I don't think it is. There's a reason people were so vocal about the Parallax Hal issue in the 90's. It was so bad that DC tried to placate fans by bringing Hal back as the Spectre. Its not a myth.

Fact: DC Brought Hal Jordan back as the Spectre
Myth: DC brought Hal back to Placate Fans
Myth: DC brought Hal back in response to fans being vocal about Parallax.

Hal's not always right. Read Emerald Dawn some time.

True. Hal has not always been right. He has been ever since he's been brought back though. And perhaps him virtually always being right is why Emerald Twilight seemed so 'wrong,' because Hal messing up is "undoable."

How could such a view be felt by so many Hal fans if he wasn't virtually always right?

You don't need those elements. You just need to focus it on Hal Jordan, and have some of the other alien GL's for some support. That's it. You don't need 20 human GL's. I personally find it rather silly that they had 4 human GL's of Earth at the same time.

You don't need Hal at all, much less to focus on him. I find it silly that we "need" Hal when there are three other perfectly good Green Lanterns that have just as much potential for good stories without all the fanboys clamoring for "their" version of the character.

I don't see Hal as fanboyism, he's just the most recognizable and notable of all the Green Lanterns. Even the writers and characters see him as "the best." And they do that for a reason.

And that reason is fanboyism. If you're a writer, even a group of writers and you write all of your characters as loving your favorite character, that's personal bias taking over the storyline. You're limited because you can't write flaws, failings and loathing into your favorite character. They become what you wish you could be and all of the supporting cast must love them. It's fanboyism, pure and simple.

I understand perfectly that you don't see it... I'm just informing you it's there. If you choose to defend bad writing in the name of "the best" character (who is "The best" because he's "the most popular), and tell me their's no bias involved, then fine, but don't say no one informed you what was going on.

Also, not only is 'notable' subjective, but there is no reason to say he's the most recognizable. There's a little show called "Justice League" that's been on for five years in various countries around the world. It's hard to imagine there aren't quite a few people who know about GL who may not have read any Hal Jordan comics... or even heard of the guy. Also, you may recall a time when Kyle Rayner was the only Green Lantern and many, many people began reading comics about this hot young guy who could create anything, and tended to create things that were very cool.

Yup,

Educate me. What's different about Hal now from before ET? As in personality and character-wise? I could've missed something. What has Hal learned for his experience? Other than "Don't get unexpectedly taken over by yellow impurities."

I didn't see Kyle as weak, but whatever. Ollie actually acknowledged his strength for once.

I saw Kyle getting schooled. Coming up to Hal like he was a little puppy. Yes, Hal is cool, yes we all look up to Hal, yes, other rampant fanboyism, yes, sure. But Kyle's been all over the universe, weilded Ion's power, rebuilt the corps (and had it fall apart again), fought the vast majority of Hal's villains and otherwise be a kick-ass GL. What happens when Hal shows up? All of that dissappears, none of it mattered until Hal gave his approval of Kyle. It doesn't matter how he saved the universe, it wasn't valid til Hal said so. That's weak.

As for the explanation, Geoff Johns was given the task of undoing something totally ridiculous and undoable in the first place.

Rediculous: Hardly. GL's have infintely limitless potential power. One of them being corrupted is inevitable... not rediculous.

Undoable: Hal is human. No evil is 'undoable.' If Hal has a human nature then he is not infallible.

I saw plenty of internal struggle on the part of Hal and his inner demons and the vengeful spirit of the Spectre conflicting with Hal's benevolent nature.

Okay... "inner demons" is a figue of speech. When we say "inner demons" in real life, we're talking about regrets and bad memories and dark habits. In Rebirth, Hal's "inner demons" were ACTUAL "inner demons" -- other beings living within his person. Parallax. Spectre. While certainly more visually interesting, this doesn't actual mean anything for HAL's personal character development.

Considering that he didn't walk on Hal or Rayner at all...I don't see your point of view.

Kyle shrunk for intergalactic hero to a young boy seeking permission to be a hero. John went from knocking Hal on his back saying you don't own me in Mosaic to blindly being his only League supporter, and not a particularly inspiring one at that. Their integrity as characters suffers in Hals presence. Same with Batman. Hal of course, doesn't do the stepping himself, the writers, in their fanboyistic bias, place these other charcters in positions where they must appear inferior to Hal, and Hal, being the best, humbles himself to treat these "inferior characters" in tune with his benevolent nature. It's really very sickening for those who are fans of characters other than Hal.

I was slightly dissatisfied with the explanation, but ultimately, Hal Jordan is back and that's the important thing.

So, in your opinion, making good stories is not as important as having Hal Jordan? I think that shows the fanboyism: Comics can suck, but as long as we have Hal Jordan, it's worth it!

Go ahead and help me out guys: What exactly is Hal the best at? He's not the most recognizable... he may be the most notable, but he certainly isn't the most engaging or introspective, especially since they retconned his only significant character development. What is Hal actually good for, storywise? Or do we just want him because he's "everyone's" favorite.

 

[TheVileOne]

Fact: DC Brought Hal Jordan back as the Spectre
Myth: DC brought Hal back to Placate Fans
Myth: DC brought Hal back in response to fans being vocal about Parallax.

You can split hairs, but that's what happened.

True. Hal has not always been right. He has been ever since he's been brought back though. And perhaps him virtually always being right is why Emerald Twilight seemed so 'wrong,' because Hal messing up is "undoable."

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. But according to you he's NEVER WRONG. Which I just disproved.

How could such a view be felt by so many Hal fans if he wasn't virtually always right?

I don't think it is.

You don't need Hal at all, much less to focus on him. I find it silly that we "need" Hal when there are three other perfectly good Green Lanterns that have just as much potential for good stories without all the fanboys clamoring for "their" version of the character.

You people don't read what I type. KYLE RAYNER IS NOT GREEN LANTERN! HE IS ION! ION DOES NOT EQUAL GREEN LANTERN!

Kyle is getting his own Ion series, so there.

Also, there is GREEN LANTERN CORPS. to see these other characters. The Green Lantern mini-series was awesome and it had plenty of Guy, Kilowagg, and Kyle in it.

And that reason is fanboyism. If you're a writer, even a group of writers and you write all of your characters as loving your favorite character, that's personal bias taking over the storyline. You're limited because you can't write flaws, failings and loathing into your favorite character. They become what you wish you could be and all of the supporting cast must love them. It's fanboyism, pure and simple.

Writers love their characters. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Kishimoto likes Kakashi and Sasuke the best, but they are still very flawed characters.

I understand perfectly that you don't see it... I'm just informing you it's there. If you choose to defend bad writing in the name of "the best" character (who is "The best" because he's "the most popular), and tell me their's no bias involved, then fine, but don't say no one informed you what was going on.

What's bad writing? The new Green Lantern series is great. Rebirth was great. Green Lantern Corps. is great.

Also, not only is 'notable' subjective, but there is no reason to say he's the most recognizable. There's a little show called "Justice League" that's been on for five years in various countries around the world. It's hard to imagine there aren't quite a few people who know about GL who may not have read any Hal Jordan comics... or even heard of the guy. Also, you may recall a time when Kyle Rayner was the only Green Lantern and many, many people began reading comics about this hot young guy who could create anything, and tended to create things that were very cool.

Hal Jordan was on a little show called Super Friends.

And I remember Kyle Rayner when he first showed up, and I remember for years and years the letters printed in the letters section of the comics of how the fans disliked Kyle so much. I didn't see these letters about a "hot young guy that made cool stuff" with his ring. That's what the big-wigs and writers at the time WANTED people to think.

Educate me. What's different about Hal now from before ET? As in personality and character-wise? I could've missed something. What has Hal learned for his experience? Other than "Don't get unexpectedly taken over by yellow impurities."

Well he learned he couldn't be the Spectre anymore. That he can't be a vengeful being. There were some rather large reprecussions to the spirit of the Spectre going away from him as well.

Deep down, he also wants Sinestro to be his ally, not his enemy. The way it "should" be.

I saw Kyle getting schooled. Coming up to Hal like he was a little puppy. Yes, Hal is cool, yes we all look up to Hal, yes, other rampant fanboyism, yes, sure. But Kyle's been all over the universe, weilded Ion's power, rebuilt the corps (and had it fall apart again), fought the vast majority of Hal's villains and otherwise be a kick-ass GL. What happens when Hal shows up? All of that dissappears, none of it mattered until Hal gave his approval of Kyle. It doesn't matter how he saved the universe, it wasn't valid til Hal said so. That's weak.

Kyle was never a leader. The corps. fell apart, he went on a ridiculous wild goose chase and abandoned earth because he was being a spoiled *****. And because he was a wussy, he gets dumped by his ****ty girlfriend.

Hal is a leader, unlike Kyle. And they needed his leadership at that time.

Ollie gave his approval of Kyle, that seemed pretty significant to me.

Also, Hal had constantly given his approval and confidence to Kyle before. Not to mention, everyone said Rebirth was just a way to kill Kyle off which did not happen, because Johns is a Kyle fan...excuse me, FANBOY for Kyle in your words. But I saw Kyle fighting the fight at the end just like everyone else. Hal might've been the true leader and hero that day, but Kyle is and never was the leader that Hal is.

Rediculous: Hardly. GL's have infintely limitless potential power. One of them being corrupted is inevitable... not rediculous.

To me, what they did to Hal Jordan with Parallax, while it was very dark and dramatic and was a big deal...I mean...how do you bring Hal back to that logically?

Quite honestly, I buy more that Hal was twisted and seduced by evil rather than becoming evil himself. Because deep down, I believe Hal is a good and decent person. And to just have him murder his closest friends and go into Parallax like that, it just felt wrong to me.

Undoable: Hal is human. No evil is 'undoable.' If Hal has a human nature then he is not infallible.

Emerald Dawn, there you go, Hal is pretty fallible in that.

Okay... "inner demons" is a figue of speech. When we say "inner demons" in real life, we're talking about regrets and bad memories and dark habits. In Rebirth, Hal's "inner demons" were ACTUAL "inner demons" -- other beings living within his person. Parallax. Spectre. While certainly more visually interesting, this doesn't actual mean anything for HAL's personal character development.

Maybe it means for Hal's personal character, he is a good guy and that's why he's Green Lantern.

Kyle shrunk for intergalactic hero to a young boy seeking permission to be a hero. John went from knocking Hal on his back saying you don't own me in Mosaic to blindly being his only League supporter, and not a particularly inspiring one at that. Their integrity as characters suffers in Hals presence. Same with Batman. Hal of course, doesn't do the stepping himself, the writers, in their fanboyistic bias, place these other charcters in positions where they must appear inferior to Hal, and Hal, being the best, humbles himself to treat these "inferior characters" in tune with his benevolent nature. It's really very sickening for those who are fans of characters other than Hal.

Kyle's always been that way.

Batman? Batman deserved a good f'n punch in the face. I bet every other league member wanted to do it. Its awesome that someone finally did.

So, in your opinion, making good stories is not as important as having Hal Jordan? I think that shows the fanboyism: Comics can suck, but as long as we have Hal Jordan, it's worth it!

I thought it was a good story. You know what sucks? Hal becoming evil and murdering the Green Lanters and destroying the Green Lantern corps.

Go ahead and help me out guys: What exactly is Hal the best at? He's not the most recognizable... he may be the most notable, but he certainly isn't the most engaging or introspective, especially since they retconned his only significant character development. What is Hal actually good for, storywise? Or do we just want him because he's "everyone's" favorite.

Well right now he's trying to rebuild his life and his home from scratch. He's trying to start over and I find that compelling. Can he do it after everything that's happened? Everything that happened to him and everything he did?

 

[Kane]

Best choice? Hal Jordan is the f^cking ONLY CHOICE!

 

[chamber-music]

If DC is ever gonna make a Green Lantern Movie now is the time before the whole comic book movie renaissance dies out and hollywood starts to see the genre as unbankable again.

 

[greenlantern248]

You know I want to jump in on this conversation between GL1 and The Vile One.

Now I am a huge Green Lantern fan hell I even have the symbol tattooed on my right arm. Now I have been reading Green Lantern for at least 12 years and I'm 24 so guess which GL I grew up with, and I will give you a hint his MAJOR villian is not Sinestro. I have to agree with GL1 with the fact that Hal hasn't been wrong SINCE REBIRTH, not that he hasn't been wrong in general, I really say this fact in issue number 9 with Batman, and Batman told Hal "I'm glad your back" now come on, Batman still can't forgive the League for mind wiping him and he forgives Jordan for killing fellow GLs, (and he did this before Parallax).

I do want to make clear that I am a fan of both Hal and Kyle, hell I would like anyone who puts on the ring as long as the story was good. About the movie issue, Hollywood will focus on bringing in todays crowd (prime example Smallville, set in today's setting) so the age range they will look at will be anywhere between 14 + so tell me who was the Green Lantern when that 14 year old starting reading comics at the age of 8?

Now I am not saying they should do Kyle movie instead of a Hal movie, I'm just saying they will aim for the crowd who has been reading comic books in the past 8 years. Just like I am currently writing a script for a Green Lantern Smallville episode with Kyle instead of Hal, cause Kyle just works better.

Leadership?? Why do you think the Guardians wanted Kyle and Guy to train the recruits, because they don't trust Hal, why did the Guardians send Kyle to LEAD the group effort in the Rann - Thanagar War?

Yes The Vile One I did hear you when you said Kyle is not a GL anymore he is ION again, but did you read the issue he became ION (Rann - Thanagar War #1) did you read what the Guardians had to say about ION? Let me show you what they said: "...the power that Rayner once gave to Alan Scott's daughter had been returned to him." "but subtly transmuted by her spirit while it dwelt within her." "that mutated power is now the catalyst for greater change. And Rayner is our crucible." "The first of a new breed. The next step in the evolution of our cause." So that is telling me that ION is the next step after GL and that Kyle will lead them.

Now about the argument about most noteable GL, yes Hal is most known, to that age group. right now the most noteables would be Kyle and John, Kyle because his series just ended, and we are only 16 issues in to Hal (10 GL and 6 Rebirth), John because of the Justice League cartoon.

Now The Vile One you said Hal was in Superfriends, yes and that was a popular cartoon for 2 or 3 seasons, but that cartoon was on back in the 70's and early 80's if I'm not mistaken. I know when I was a kid in the 80's (born in 1982) Superfriends wasn't on, I was watching Transformers, GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, Mask, and in the 90's it was Batman the animated series, the New Batman and Superman adventures (which GL did make a guest appearence Hal's orgin but the GL was Kyle), so the only way I knew anything about Hal was the back issues i bought. I have said my piece so thank you very much and have a wonderful day.

 

[Warhammer]

More than likely, the younger people will want Kyle Rayner, because he was Earth's Green Lantern at the time they grew up, but the older people will want Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.

Bottomline: More than likely, 50% of the people will want Kyle.
50% of the people will want Hal.

 

[GL1]

First of all, TheVileOne, I must thank you for being respectful... it's obvious we disagree on some heartful issues, but the fact that you can defend your position without resorting to antics is quite encouraging.

You can split hairs, but that's what happened.

We all know what happened. I am vehemently disagreeing on the WHY, which is where your point rests. No splitting hairs have been done.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. But according to you he's NEVER WRONG. Which I just disproved.

And then I said "True" and corrected myself stating he's virtually never wrong. And explained that Hal being virtually or ALMOST always right is why people can feel like him making a mistake is bad writing. (ie ET). Of course once upon a time he was new and made mistakes, but those times are LOOONG gone.

I don't think it is.

Be more specific, please. What don't you think? It sounds like you're saying you don't feel many fans feel that ET was "wrong," but you have statements contradicting that.

You people don't read what I type. KYLE RAYNER IS NOT GREEN LANTERN! HE IS ION! ION DOES NOT EQUAL GREEN LANTERN!

Kyle is getting his own Ion series, so there.

Also, there is GREEN LANTERN CORPS. to see these other characters. The Green Lantern mini-series was awesome and it had plenty of Guy, Kilowagg, and Kyle in it.

I'm reading you loud and clear, I suggested an ensemble cast. You said we didn't need that. I said we didn't need Hal Jordan, we could use Kyle, John or Guy just as easily. You now mention Kyle's position in present comic books continuity, while nice, has little to do with the continuity of a possible movie. This is still the movie forum, and are comic book discussions are only relevant as far as they have possible bearing on a possible movie.

Writers love their characters. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Kishimoto likes Kakashi and Sasuke the best, but they are still very flawed characters.

Of course, but Kishimoto and Kakashi aren't written as though they are supposed to be unequivocally "the best" and there are characters in Naruto who don't like Kakashi and/or Kishimoto, you know, other than villains. Not everyone in the world of Naruto considers Kakashi and/or Kishimoto the best in powers and character. They are great characters, with great real flaws, and are well written, even though they are the writer's favorite.

Hal Jordan is considered "the best" by his supporting cast, in both powers and character, (except that Stupid Batman ). People who don't like him are few and far between and are painted as hatable for their lack of reverence for Hal Jordan. Kishimoto and Kakashi are not written in fanboyism while Hal is. If you do not see the difference say so. If you do not think the difference is important. Say so.

What's bad writing? The new Green Lantern series is great. Rebirth was great. Green Lantern Corps. is great.

I consider 'bad writing,' when you force events into happening instead of letting them grow organically over time. Quality of writing is subjective and it's perfectly acceptable for you to think the polt for Rebirth was great, but you've already indicated that you don't.

Hal Jordan was on a little show called Super Friends.

Not as much as the Wonder Twins, and they're not really all that recognizable, to be honest. Hal Jordan would be less so. Hal Jordan is the favorite of a vocal group of older DC fans, they are not few, but they are hardly a majority. The rest of the world knows nothing about him. Even SNL skits have John Stewart.

And I remember Kyle Rayner when he first showed up, and I remember for years and years the letters printed in the letters section of the comics of how the fans disliked Kyle so much. I didn't see these letters about a "hot young guy that made cool stuff" with his ring. That's what the big-wigs and writers at the time WANTED people to think.

If the big wigs wanted people to think Kyle was "all that," why would they have put hate letters in their letters column? This arguement is unredeemably illogical. Please drop it.

Well he learned he couldn't be the Spectre anymore. That he can't be a vengeful being. There were some rather large reprecussions to the spirit of the Spectre going away from him as well.

Again, palpable inner demons aren't the same as actual character development... I'll go read it again in case the reason he couldn't be Spectre again was a valid result of his personal experiences, but this, IF true, would be the exception to Hal's "Character development" and not the rule.

Deep down, he also wants Sinestro to be his ally, not his enemy. The way it "should" be.

Which is actually cool. So Hal's not completely worthless as a character. Notice the lack of quotes. I actually mean that.

Kyle was never a leader. The corps. fell apart, he went on a ridiculous wild goose chase and abandoned earth because he was being a spoiled *****. And because he was a wussy, he gets dumped by his ****ty girlfriend.

Kyle made mistakes? No surprise there... Kyle's got gashing gaping character flaws? Man... you coulda fooled me... isn't this the same guy who was scared to stand up to Superman until he was darn close to God himself? The same guy who ACCIDENTALLY created a universe shaking villain out of his self doubt? That's what I call entertainment, man. But none of this takes away from the fact that he's saved the universe a few times, and been instrumental in a dozen.

Hal is a leader, unlike Kyle. And they needed his leadership at that time.

Ollie gave his approval of Kyle, that seemed pretty significant to me.

Also, Hal had constantly given his approval and confidence to Kyle before. Not to mention, everyone said Rebirth was just a way to kill Kyle off which did not happen, because Johns is a Kyle fan...excuse me, FANBOY for Kyle in your words. But I saw Kyle fighting the fight at the end just like everyone else. Hal might've been the true leader and hero that day, but Kyle is and never was the leader that Hal is.

What do they need Hal's leadership for? I mean really? What is Hal bringing to the table that is in anyway crucial? Why does Kyle need approval from anyone... I could understand back when he first came out, but now? He's already proven himself to the universe a dozen times... what Hal and Ollie say can't add to or take away from that.

To me, what they did to Hal Jordan with Parallax, while it was very dark and dramatic and was a big deal...I mean...how do you bring Hal back to that logically?

Well he was still around as Spectre, they built up how he was atoning for his issues. Put up another Parallax... a dark guardian who takes all the battery's energy for himself... Or Jade becomes Parallax... or whatever. Spectre's guides John and Kyle through the intro steps, they can't stop it/her/whatever, and Spectre steps in at the last moment to prevent the new Parallax from doing the same things he was trying to do.

Spectre talks him/it/her down and redeems her, thus redeeming himself. Spectre's transfers to some other being and, through some crazy hook, Hal wakes up somewhere, just the way he was before he died, just, with less power within his body. Though, he could have some internal Lantern or some other issue that allows him to continue heroing as a senior and justified honoree.

Quite honestly, I buy more that Hal was twisted and seduced by evil rather than becoming evil himself. Because deep down, I believe Hal is a good and decent person. And to just have him murder his closest friends and go into Parallax like that, it just felt wrong to me.

Emerald Dawn, there you go, Hal is pretty fallible in that.

As in his origin story? Yes, he was very fallible when he begun. Once upon a time Hal was infallible, sadly, this is no longer the case, and I imagine his infallibility came on quite a bit before ET.

And while I certainly beleive that Hal is, deep down, a good and decent person, I still believe he is, and should be capable, of dark and evil malevolent things, because he is a person. No matter how noble and good, everyone is capable of doing evil in extraordinary situations. Hal's superhero life has been one extraordinary situation right after another. He's capable of murdering his closest friends.

Maybe it means for Hal's personal character, he is a good guy and that's why he's Green Lantern.

I don't understand what you've said. How does what other people, regardless of their physical relationship to Hal, have to do with his personal character? I understand that you think he's a good guy and that's why he's GL, but what does that have to do with Parallax and Spectre? What is the relationship?

Kyle's always been that way.

Not lately... not until Hal showed up.

Batman? Batman deserved a good f'n punch in the face. I bet every other league member wanted to do it. Its awesome that someone finally did.

I disagree. Batman's a jerk, yes, but until OMAC, Batman, not unlike Hal, had always been correct. He, unlike Hal, hadn't always been nice about, nor is Batman particularly sane, but the only reason to be mad at Batman is because of overexposure in the media. Another case of Writer injecting out-of-story motivations into their story-writing, which is, in most credible writing schools, BAD writing.

But perhaps I'm judging. Tell me why Batman deserves to be punched in the face? Why would the other Leagers want to do so?

I thought it was a good story. You know what sucks? Hal becoming evil and murdering the Green Lanters and destroying the Green Lantern corps.

Earlier you excused Johns' Rebirth storyline on the grounds that he had to undo something you claimed was "rediculous" and "undoable." Now you're saying you like it. Please elaborate on these two, apparently conflicting statements.

Well right now he's trying to rebuild his life and his home from scratch. He's trying to start over and I find that compelling. Can he do it after everything that's happened? Everything that happened to him and everything he did?

The point of Rebirth was that he didn't do anything, Parallax, the yellow impurity, did all the bad things. As for things that happened to him, that edge of his possible storylines are diminished by the fact that the vast majority of his life is retconned back into existance. He's also a Green Lantern ("the best" it seems) and the moment he gets his supporting cast (which can be done in three issues tops at the writer's discretion), he'll have his life back. Hal is hardly going to be sweating trying to find a place to lay his head at night.

 

[TheVileOne]

Someone should just do a poll about who they want to see a Green Lantern movie focused on then. I bet you the majority will vote for Hal Jordan.

I'm reading you loud and clear, I suggested an ensemble cast. You said we didn't need that. I said we didn't need Hal Jordan, we could use Kyle, John or Guy just as easily. You now mention Kyle's position in present comic books continuity, while nice, has little to do with the continuity of a possible movie. This is still the movie forum, and are comic book discussions are only relevant as far as they have possible bearing on a possible movie.

Not for the movie. The movie should be focused on Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, with perhaps some of the alien GL's for support. You can do the ensemble books in the comics, for the movie you want the focus to be on one major character.

Of course, but Kishimoto and Kakashi aren't written as though they are supposed to be unequivocally "the best" and there are characters in Naruto who don't like Kakashi and/or Kishimoto, you know, other than villains. Not everyone in the world of Naruto considers Kakashi and/or Kishimoto the best in powers and character. They are great characters, with great real flaws, and are well written, even though they are the writer's favorite.

I still don't see Hal as never wrong. For one thing, I still find him to be too naive, which I think is a problem. I still see Hal as a more flawed character than say SUPERMAN. You want to talk about a character that's virtually never wrong and has no flaws . . .

Hal Jordan is considered "the best" by his supporting cast, in both powers and character, (except that Stupid Batman ). People who don't like him are few and far between and are painted as hatable for their lack of reverence for Hal Jordan. Kishimoto and Kakashi are not written in fanboyism while Hal is. If you do not see the difference say so. If you do not think the difference is important. Say so.

I think there's good reason for that. Even after becoming Parallax he still sacrificed himself to save the planet and he resurrected his best friend from death.

As for Naruto, so far, the only people that hate Kakashi are bad guys. Even his greatest rivals loves him.

[QUTE]
I consider 'bad writing,' when you force events into happening instead of letting them grow organically over time. Quality of writing is subjective and it's perfectly acceptable for you to think the polt for Rebirth was great, but you've already indicated that you don't.[/QUOTE]

I've indicated, that yes, the way the explained things wasn't the best. But I found the story of bringing Hal back and the threat and all the Green Lanterns uniting to be an awesome one.

The deal with Hal had been growing for a long time. He had been the Spectre for years and it grew to a point where he couldn't be the Spectre any longer, and he had to finally stop trying to redeem himself in that way. For years, he was constantly avoiding and shying away from going back to being a Green Lantern, even though he was offered it constantly. Perhaps he was afraid, and now he is owning up to it and faced it.

Not as much as the Wonder Twins, and they're not really all that recognizable, to be honest. Hal Jordan would be less so. Hal Jordan is the favorite of a vocal group of older DC fans, they are not few, but they are hardly a majority. The rest of the world knows nothing about him. Even SNL skits have John Stewart.

If John's so popular and recognizeable, I wonder why Hal is the one with his own book and not John.

If the big wigs wanted people to think Kyle was "all that," why would they have put hate letters in their letters column? This arguement is unredeemably illogical. Please drop it.

They had the Kyle lover letters mixed in as well every now and again. But I didn't see this widespread fandom about this young, hot guy who makes cool stuff with his ring.

Again, palpable inner demons aren't the same as actual character development... I'll go read it again in case the reason he couldn't be Spectre again was a valid result of his personal experiences, but this, IF true, would be the exception to Hal's "Character development" and not the rule.

I'd call it character development that Hal was no longer afraid of trying to start over.

Kyle made mistakes? No surprise there... Kyle's got gashing gaping character flaws? Man... you coulda fooled me... isn't this the same guy who was scared to stand up to Superman until he was darn close to God himself? The same guy who ACCIDENTALLY created a universe shaking villain out of his self doubt? That's what I call entertainment, man. But none of this takes away from the fact that he's saved the universe a few times, and been instrumental in a dozen.

Sure. And I like Kyle. But he still isn't a leader. There are leaders and there are followers. Kyle is a follower. Even in circle of fire he still didn't feel like a leader at all.

What do they need Hal's leadership for? I mean really? What is Hal bringing to the table that is in anyway crucial? Why does Kyle need approval from anyone... I could understand back when he first came out, but now? He's already proven himself to the universe a dozen times... what Hal and Ollie say can't add to or take away from that.

Hal Jordan just has this strength and integrity of character that is hard to match.

I don't know why Kyle needs approval. Despite everything, I'd say he did a pretty good job, still no Hal, but a good job. But he himself was always constantly striving for approval and acknowledgement from his peers considering the shoes he had to fill. He has this thing of acting like a little fish in a big pond. Its a character drawback, and its part of why he can't be a strong leader. He seemed a little different after he became Ion again, so maybe it will change now.

Well he was still around as Spectre, they built up how he was atoning for his issues. Put up another Parallax... a dark guardian who takes all the battery's energy for himself... Or Jade becomes Parallax... or whatever. Spectre's guides John and Kyle through the intro steps, they can't stop it/her/whatever, and Spectre steps in at the last moment to prevent the new Parallax from doing the same things he was trying to do.

Spectre talks him/it/her down and redeems her, thus redeeming himself. Spectre's transfers to some other being and, through some crazy hook, Hal wakes up somewhere, just the way he was before he died, just, with less power within his body. Though, he could have some internal Lantern or some other issue that allows him to continue heroing as a senior and justified honoree.

I don't see how that makes any more sense than Green Lantern: Rebirth is.

In the eyes of many characters, Hal had ALREADY redeemed himself. He was offered to be Green Lantern again before he died. Kyle offered that he could've altered the timeline to keep Parallax from ever happening and Hal could come back. Part of the point of the story was that Hal had to make this choice on his own. He had to do it voluntarily.

As in his origin story? Yes, he was very fallible when he begun. Once upon a time Hal was infallible, sadly, this is no longer the case, and I imagine his infallibility came on quite a bit before ET.

And while I certainly beleive that Hal is, deep down, a good and decent person, I still believe he is, and should be capable, of dark and evil malevolent things, because he is a person. No matter how noble and good, everyone is capable of doing evil in extraordinary situations. Hal's superhero life has been one extraordinary situation right after another. He's capable of murdering his closest friends.

Hey we'll see. The new series is still rather new and I'm sure things will come up down the line. I still think its too early to say things like that.

I don't understand what you've said. How does what other people, regardless of their physical relationship to Hal, have to do with his personal character? I understand that you think he's a good guy and that's why he's GL, but what does that have to do with Parallax and Spectre? What is the relationship?

It means, his personality as a person could no longer go along with the task of being the Spectre. They didn't gel.

Not lately... not until Hal showed up.

Yes he was still like that. All the way up through the end of his comic.

I disagree. Batman's a jerk, yes, but until OMAC, Batman, not unlike Hal, had always been correct. He, unlike Hal, hadn't always been nice about, nor is Batman particularly sane, but the only reason to be mad at Batman is because of overexposure in the media. Another case of Writer injecting out-of-story motivations into their story-writing, which is, in most credible writing schools, BAD writing.

I'd call what Batman did in Tower of Babel majorly wrong. You can justify what he did, but he's so paranoid and egotistical, he never even thinks . . . "Holy crap, what happens if I go bad? How will they stop me?!"

Hal isn't the first guy to sock him one either. Ollie did it as well.

But perhaps I'm judging. Tell me why Batman deserves to be punched in the face? Why would the other Leagers want to do so?

There is that whole Tower of Babel and OMAC thing.

Earlier you excused Johns' Rebirth storyline on the grounds that he had to undo something you claimed was "rediculous" and "undoable." Now you're saying you like it. Please elaborate on these two, apparently conflicting statements.

Good art, and overall I found it compelling. I have a little ambivalence about the explanation, but overall I can deal with it. Its not so stupid as a virginal Gwen Stacy having sex with Norman Osbourne and having his babies. I'm not sure I can put it much simpler than that.

The point of Rebirth was that he didn't do anything, Parallax, the yellow impurity, did all the bad things. As for things that happened to him, that edge of his possible storylines are diminished by the fact that the vast majority of his life is retconned back into existance. He's also a Green Lantern ("the best" it seems) and the moment he gets his supporting cast (which can be done in three issues tops at the writer's discretion), he'll have his life back. Hal is hardly going to be sweating trying to find a place to lay his head at night.

I was thinking more along the lines of rebuilding Coast City and bringing people back to it.

As for the yellow impurity, well its like the one ring, it can corrupt and twist even the kindest and greatest of people. And for a character that was usually seen as noble and upright . . . I'd say it works.

 

[terry78]

Point blank, if it came down to simply what the mainstream knows of the Green Lantern, the most recent one brought to light in mainstream is the one on JLU, who is John Stewart. Most joe averages could care less which one they use, so long as he does crazy ass things with the ring. The rivalry between fanboys as far as Hal and Kyle would basically be ignored, unless the writer/director is a fanboy as well.

 

[TheVileOne]

Thing is John doesn't do crazy stuff with the ring. On JLU at least.

 

[GL1]

Someone should just do a poll about who they want to see a Green Lantern movie focused on then. I bet you the majority will vote for Hal Jordan.

I agree. Hal Jordan is the most popular Green Lantern ON THIS BOARD or in your LOCAL COMIC SHOP, however, the rest of the planet recognizes John and Kyle just as quickly and easily. Again Hal's mass popularity ONLY applies to older comics fans. This was my initial statement. I shall refer to it as STATEMENT A from now on. If you don't want to argue anymore, just say so, I'll stop completely, but don't ignore statements I've made.

Not for the movie. The movie should be focused on Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, with perhaps some of the alien GL's for support. You can do the ensemble books in the comics, for the movie you want the focus to be on one major character.

And then I suggest Kyle or John or Guy, in the very same QUOTE that you're following up. You accused me of not reading your posts, but you're responding as if I haven't made my last two posts. In short: I disagree. I think "The movie should be focused on [John Stewart or Kyle Rayner or Guy Gardener] as Green Lantern, with perhaps some of the alien GL's for support."

I still don't see Hal as never wrong. For one thing, I still find him to be too naive, which I think is a problem. I still see Hal as a more flawed character than say SUPERMAN. You want to talk about a character that's virtually never wrong and has no flaws . . .

Superman may be rarely MORALLY wrong, but he makes many mistakes and Wonder Woman and Batman are MORE than happy to correct him on MANY occasions. Hal is correct morally AND technically at all times, certainly since Rebirth, but even back to his early days after ED, he's always right AND correct.

When has Hal's naivete ever gotten him in trouble? Superman's tendency to take the world on his shoulders is practically the only reason he EVER gets into trouble. Superman's flaw is valid and an actual drawback. I've never seen Hal's "flaw" be a drawback. If it never causes an actual problem, then it's not a real flaw. If it all it does is cause a little problem one time, it's not an important or defining flaw, like the ones Superman has.

I think there's good reason for that. Even after becoming Parallax he still sacrificed himself to save the planet and he resurrected his best friend from death. As for Naruto, so far, the only people that hate Kakashi are bad guys. Even his greatest rivals loves him.

Good reason for what? Fanboyism? Again you're using pronouns to respond to paragraphs with many different subjects.

Googling "Kakashi Rivals Naruto" I get a link to an episode Summary of Episode 23 which states: "They latter told off Kakashi for having consented the three into entering the exam... There was this expression on his face that tells that he wasn;t too sure if he had made the right decision."

Not only was Kakashi reprimanded, but he also dealt with self-doubt. This is a teacher in a series about students, btw. If Hal was still Spectre, and thus, automatically above others, then him being never being wrong would be natural as a "God Hand," but as is, all we have is fanboysim.

I've indicated, that yes, the way the explained things wasn't the best. But I found the story of bringing Hal back and the threat and all the Green Lanterns uniting to be an awesome one.

So the plot was bad, but the story was good, that's what you're saying? Cuz honestly, I agree, it was a superb execution of a horribly ill-conceived plot, which is to be expected from talented Fanboys.

The deal with Hal had been growing for a long time. He had been the Spectre for years and it grew to a point where he couldn't be the Spectre any longer, and he had to finally stop trying to redeem himself in that way. For years, he was constantly avoiding and shying away from going back to being a Green Lantern, even though he was offered it constantly. Perhaps he was afraid, and now he is owning up to it and faced it.

What did he own up to. The Point of Rebirth was that HAL WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE. He had nothing to "own up to." Nothing at all. He had nothing to face except himself, whom he had been with all the time. He had been facing these others constantly as Spectre. Furthermore, Spectre is a position appointed, it really doesn't matter whether Hal 'felt like redeeming himself that way,' it wasn't his decision.

If John's so popular and recognizeable, I wonder why Hal is the one with his own book and not John.

Because the writers are fanboys. I've been over this before too, TheVileOne. The writers don't act based on who is most recognizable they write whoever is their favorite, and if they let their bias run their stories, then they make that character "the best." This is what's happened to Hal Jordan.

They had the Kyle lover letters mixed in as well every now and again. But I didn't see this widespread fandom about this young, hot guy who makes cool stuff with his ring.

The letters column is selected and has no indication on any actual popularity, only the agenda of the letter selectors.

In order to hear about Kyle Rayner, you would have had to talk to casual comics fans and younger comics fans (which would occur somewhere away from this board). Most of my friends had never thought Green Lantern was anybody worth knowing about until they heard he could make Anime come to life. Go to an internet forum frequented by younger fans and you'll see the same blind devotion (though MUCH less well spoken) to Kyle that fans here have to Hal.

I'd call it character development that Hal was no longer afraid of trying to start over.

I'd only call it character development if there was a REASON based on Hal's personal experiences why he was no longer afraid of trying to start over. Otherwise, it's just contrived.

Sure. And I like Kyle. But he still isn't a leader. There are leaders and there are followers. Kyle is a follower. Even in circle of fire he still didn't feel like a leader at all.

He led in Circle of Fire. It was obvious he wasn't a good leader, but he was the one doing the leading. And why does a solo hero need to be a good leader? I agree that Hal's a better leader than Kyle, but who cares? Kyle is a better artist than Hal, what does that have to do with which would should be made into a movie?

Hal Jordan just has this strength and integrity of character that is hard to match.

That's a reason to follow a real person. That's not a reason to write a comic book or make a movie about a character since those things are controlled by YOU, the writier.

I don't know why Kyle needs approval. Despite everything, I'd say he did a pretty good job, still no Hal, but a good job. But he himself was always constantly striving for approval and acknowledgement from his peers considering the shoes he had to fill. He has this thing of acting like a little fish in a big pond. Its a character drawback, and its part of why he can't be a strong leader. He seemed a little different after he became Ion again, so maybe it will change now.

Hmm... more disagreement? Kyle still had self doubts, but he's hardly been the approval seeker he was pre-Ion (the first time). I simply disagree. I think it's already changed and that Rebirth ignored that.

I don't see how that makes any more sense than Green Lantern: Rebirth is.

I know. Do you see how it involves forward story development as opposed to retconning?

In the eyes of many characters, Hal had ALREADY redeemed himself. He was offered to be Green Lantern again before he died. Kyle offered that he could've altered the timeline to keep Parallax from ever happening and Hal could come back. Part of the point of the story was that Hal had to make this choice on his own. He had to do it voluntarily.

If Hal had redeemed himself, why did his offense have to be retconned? If he had redeemed himself they could have just brought him back to life and made him a GL again. They invalidated the point of Hal doing it voluntarily since he didn't voluntarily do anything wrong. Hal was absolved from responsibility and need to redeem himself, retconning any character development between ET and Rebirth into pointlessness.

Hey we'll see. The new series is still rather new and I'm sure things will come up down the line. I still think its too early to say things like that.

It's not too early to say that Hal hasn't made any mistakes since Rebirth. It's not too early to say that the writing is tainted by Fanboyism. It is possible that some non-fanboy writer will get the reigns and write Hal as a great well rounded character instead of trying to cram "He's the best" down our throats. But since Rebirth got greenlighted, I imagine there's some fanboyism in the editorial staff and they would be hesitant to put a non Hal-fan on the book. It's certainly not too early to say that Hal is a human being and is thus, capable of murdering his friends in an extraordinary situation.

It means, his personality as a person could no longer go along with the task of being the Spectre. They didn't gel.

He's the spirit of vengeance. He doesn't "gel" with anybody. Nobody 'enjoys' being Spectre. I don't see how Hal becoming uncomfortable with his job in the unvierse affected anything but his mood. Is Hal's mood more powerful than the forces that appoint the Spectre?

Yes he was still like that. All the way up through the end of his comic.

I disagree. I read differently.

I'd call what Batman did in Tower of Babel majorly wrong. You can justify what he did, but he's so paranoid and egotistical, he never even thinks . . . "Holy crap, what happens if I go bad? How will they stop me?!"

What Batman did in Tower of Babel was MORALLY questinable, however from a logical standpoint, it was perfect. All of his plans worked perfectly. He was not "Right" but he was "correct." Not only is he not the first person to do something like Babel, but he was also kicked out of the League for it, and has been at odds with everyone in the League since. While his actions are morally questionable at least he's getting the consequence of them, intead of them being yellow impuritied away.

And if The League ever decides to take out Batman, his life is over. Superman/Batman showed us how quickly Superman ends Batman's reign of terror whenever Superman feels like getting off his ass. Hiketa showed us how Batman has NOTHING to deal with Wonder Woman. While Bat-fans like myself like to imagine how, in the right situation Batman could beat anybody, the fact is, if the League wants Batman dead, he'll only be alive for five more seconds. Batman's "what if I go bad" problem was solved the moment Kal-El's ship landed.

Hal isn't the first guy to sock him one either. Ollie did it as well.

Well many people have punched Batman. But the vast majority have been masters of hand to hand combat (or in special situations). And while Batman is a jerk and many people may WANT to punch him in the face, he hardly NEEDS it.

There is that whole Tower of Babel and OMAC thing.

OMAC was after Rebirth, if I recall correctly. Tower of Babel had already been dealt with.

Good art, and overall I found it compelling. I have a little ambivalence about the explanation, but overall I can deal with it. Its not so stupid as a virginal Gwen Stacy having sex with Norman Osbourne and having his babies. I'm not sure I can put it much simpler than that.

Well, we agree that it was well executed at least. We still seem to disagree on the magnitude of the suckitude of the story. I found the yellow impuirity concept JUST as rediculous as Gwen and Norman's love child. Moreso.

I was thinking more along the lines of rebuilding Coast City and bringing people back to it.

As for the yellow impurity, well its like the one ring, it can corrupt and twist even the kindest and greatest of people. And for a character that was usually seen as noble and upright . . . I'd say it works.

Yes, I agree that's what the impurity does, I'm saying that means there's nothing for him to recover from. He has no problems to work out since none of it was his fault. He has no regrets, the only reason he was even possessed was because he was so good, so he has no valid self-reflection on this issue. My question again: What is Hal good for, storywise? Rebrth invalidates all the points you made.

EDIT: I'm reading my post and this is getting sickening... can we do closing arguements next time and just agree to disagree?

 

[phoenixstorm]

My choice goes to John Stewart. He is the most visible due not only to the comic but the five year running Justice League cartoon which is highly popular.

John Stewart ftw just as long as Wesley Snipes does not play him. He's too old.

 

[TheVileOne]

I can't make another lengthy response post like that again.

But I will say one thing, I don't see how you are any less of a fanboy than Geoff Johns and co. You brandish that term like its an insult.

 

[White_Howling]

Wow, Man.
He's only a comic book character, not your friend.
I didnt mean to offend you in some strange way.
You are getting all worked up over a comic book character.

I have to agree with you here.. vile's throwing quite the temper over hal jordan..

 

[son of jorel]

I like the guy from x files as G/L

Nicholas Lea who played Alex Krycek

 

[comicbookmaster]

Hal jordan is the best next to John stewart!!!

 

[Captain Kirk]

There is only one choice for me, HAL 'the fearless one' JORDAN. I mean except for having as a GL, Hal the best possible choice. Of course I am biased for having grown up watching Super Friends. No one else comes close. Kyle who?

 

[Kirk Langstrom (2)]

Hal jordan is the best next to John stewart!!!

Hal Jordan is "second best" to no one......Hal Jordan dammit!!!!

 

[Saint]

These claims of Hal being "well known" are irrelevant, because outside the comic book community, most people only have a vague idea of WHAT a Green Lantern is, and surely don't know WHO he is. If anything, I suspect most know John Stewart from Justice League.

As for who's best? It depends on the writer. Historically, writers have done a poor job with Hal Jordan, which is why he could never support his own series (which is why Kyle was created in the first place). Despite a vocal minority, I believe Kyle was probably more popular than Hal, which is why he remains around despite Hal's return.

However, Geoff Johns--as is his habit--has taken the relatively stale and boring Hal Jordan and made him interesting, which is why his return was such a success (that and nostalgia). If they wrote Hal Jordan as Johns has, all will be well. If they write him the way he was when his book failed, all will NOT be well.

In any case, I don't care if it's Kyle or Hal, so long as it's done well.

 

[Katsuro]

If they make a Green Lantern, i'm almost certain it'll be Hal. His origin is simply the easiest to adapt into a film's storyline and make's the most sense.

As for the public, I'll bet if you ask most random person on the street what GL's real name is, they wont have a clue what you're talking about. The average Joe doesn't read comics OR watch cartoons, so Hal's probably just as well known as John in most people's eyes.

 

[terry78]

They'll go with the most popular amongst a mixture of comic fans and mainstream more than likely. It's a toss up at this point. It could be Stewart, Rayner, or Jordan. Most kids know Stewart from the cartoon, comic geeks know Rayner and Jordan. It's anyone's game.

 

[GL1]

It's SO anyones game... but I do think a lot of it depends on what kind of movie they want to make... also, I'm very glad they didn't do the Jack Black one, while having a big fat Guy Gardener would've been funny, I think we can do a little better...