TheVileOne said:Its so DUMB, so ridiculously pretty dumb as you say, that you want them to do it in a movie.
I guess that means you think your own arguments are dumb.
Also, Kyle is no longer Green Lantern. He's Ion now. Guy Gardener does not work on Earth.
TheVileOne said:I don't think it is. There's a reason people were so vocal about the Parallax Hal issue in the 90's. It was so bad that DC tried to placate fans by bringing Hal back as the Spectre. Its not a myth.
Hal's not always right. Read Emerald Dawn some time.
You don't need those elements. You just need to focus it on Hal Jordan, and have some of the other alien GL's for some support. That's it. You don't need 20 human GL's. I personally find it rather silly that they had 4 human GL's of Earth at the same time.
I don't see Hal as fanboyism, he's just the most recognizable and notable of all the Green Lanterns. Even the writers and characters see him as "the best." And they do that for a reason.
Yup,
I didn't see Kyle as weak, but whatever. Ollie actually acknowledged his strength for once.
As for the explanation, Geoff Johns was given the task of undoing something totally ridiculous and undoable in the first place.
I saw plenty of internal struggle on the part of Hal and his inner demons and the vengeful spirit of the Spectre conflicting with Hal's benevolent nature.
Considering that he didn't walk on Hal or Rayner at all...I don't see your point of view.
I was slightly dissatisfied with the explanation, but ultimately, Hal Jordan is back and that's the important thing.
GL1 said:Fact: DC Brought Hal Jordan back as the Spectre
Myth: DC brought Hal back to Placate Fans
Myth: DC brought Hal back in response to fans being vocal about Parallax.
True. Hal has not always been right. He has been ever since he's been brought back though. And perhaps him virtually always being right is why Emerald Twilight seemed so 'wrong,' because Hal messing up is "undoable."
How could such a view be felt by so many Hal fans if he wasn't virtually always right?
You don't need Hal at all, much less to focus on him. I find it silly that we "need" Hal when there are three other perfectly good Green Lanterns that have just as much potential for good stories without all the fanboys clamoring for "their" version of the character.
And that reason is fanboyism. If you're a writer, even a group of writers and you write all of your characters as loving your favorite character, that's personal bias taking over the storyline. You're limited because you can't write flaws, failings and loathing into your favorite character. They become what you wish you could be and all of the supporting cast must love them. It's fanboyism, pure and simple.
I understand perfectly that you don't see it... I'm just informing you it's there. If you choose to defend bad writing in the name of "the best" character (who is "The best" because he's "the most popular), and tell me their's no bias involved, then fine, but don't say no one informed you what was going on.
Also, not only is 'notable' subjective, but there is no reason to say he's the most recognizable. There's a little show called "Justice League" that's been on for five years in various countries around the world. It's hard to imagine there aren't quite a few people who know about GL who may not have read any Hal Jordan comics... or even heard of the guy. Also, you may recall a time when Kyle Rayner was the only Green Lantern and many, many people began reading comics about this hot young guy who could create anything, and tended to create things that were very cool.
Educate me. What's different about Hal now from before ET? As in personality and character-wise? I could've missed something. What has Hal learned for his experience? Other than "Don't get unexpectedly taken over by yellow impurities."
I saw Kyle getting schooled. Coming up to Hal like he was a little puppy. Yes, Hal is cool, yes we all look up to Hal, yes, other rampant fanboyism, yes, sure. But Kyle's been all over the universe, weilded Ion's power, rebuilt the corps (and had it fall apart again), fought the vast majority of Hal's villains and otherwise be a kick-ass GL. What happens when Hal shows up? All of that dissappears, none of it mattered until Hal gave his approval of Kyle. It doesn't matter how he saved the universe, it wasn't valid til Hal said so. That's weak.
Rediculous: Hardly. GL's have infintely limitless potential power. One of them being corrupted is inevitable... not rediculous.
Undoable: Hal is human. No evil is 'undoable.' If Hal has a human nature then he is not infallible.
Okay... "inner demons" is a figue of speech. When we say "inner demons" in real life, we're talking about regrets and bad memories and dark habits. In Rebirth, Hal's "inner demons" were ACTUAL "inner demons" -- other beings living within his person. Parallax. Spectre. While certainly more visually interesting, this doesn't actual mean anything for HAL's personal character development.
Kyle shrunk for intergalactic hero to a young boy seeking permission to be a hero. John went from knocking Hal on his back saying you don't own me in Mosaic to blindly being his only League supporter, and not a particularly inspiring one at that. Their integrity as characters suffers in Hals presence. Same with Batman. Hal of course, doesn't do the stepping himself, the writers, in their fanboyistic bias, place these other charcters in positions where they must appear inferior to Hal, and Hal, being the best, humbles himself to treat these "inferior characters" in tune with his benevolent nature. It's really very sickening for those who are fans of characters other than Hal.
So, in your opinion, making good stories is not as important as having Hal Jordan? I think that shows the fanboyism: Comics can suck, but as long as we have Hal Jordan, it's worth it!
Go ahead and help me out guys: What exactly is Hal the best at? He's not the most recognizable... he may be the most notable, but he certainly isn't the most engaging or introspective, especially since they retconned his only significant character development. What is Hal actually good for, storywise? Or do we just want him because he's "everyone's" favorite.
TheVileOne said:You can split hairs, but that's what happened.
We all know what happened. I am vehemently disagreeing on the WHY, which is where your point rests. No splitting hairs have been done.
I'm not sure where you are getting this from. But according to you he's NEVER WRONG. Which I just disproved.
And then I said "True" and corrected myself stating he's virtually never wrong. And explained that Hal being virtually or ALMOST always right is why people can feel like him making a mistake is bad writing. (ie ET). Of course once upon a time he was new and made mistakes, but those times are LOOONG gone.
I don't think it is.
Be more specific, please. What don't you think? It sounds like you're saying you don't feel many fans feel that ET was "wrong," but you have statements contradicting that.
You people don't read what I type. KYLE RAYNER IS NOT GREEN LANTERN! HE IS ION! ION DOES NOT EQUAL GREEN LANTERN!
Kyle is getting his own Ion series, so there.
Also, there is GREEN LANTERN CORPS. to see these other characters. The Green Lantern mini-series was awesome and it had plenty of Guy, Kilowagg, and Kyle in it.
I'm reading you loud and clear, I suggested an ensemble cast. You said we didn't need that. I said we didn't need Hal Jordan, we could use Kyle, John or Guy just as easily. You now mention Kyle's position in present comic books continuity, while nice, has little to do with the continuity of a possible movie. This is still the movie forum, and are comic book discussions are only relevant as far as they have possible bearing on a possible movie.
Writers love their characters. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Kishimoto likes Kakashi and Sasuke the best, but they are still very flawed characters.
Of course, but Kishimoto and Kakashi aren't written as though they are supposed to be unequivocally "the best" and there are characters in Naruto who don't like Kakashi and/or Kishimoto, you know, other than villains. Not everyone in the world of Naruto considers Kakashi and/or Kishimoto the best in powers and character. They are great characters, with great real flaws, and are well written, even though they are the writer's favorite.
Hal Jordan is considered "the best" by his supporting cast, in both powers and character, (except that Stupid Batman ). People who don't like him are few and far between and are painted as hatable for their lack of reverence for Hal Jordan. Kishimoto and Kakashi are not written in fanboyism while Hal is. If you do not see the difference say so. If you do not think the difference is important. Say so.
What's bad writing? The new Green Lantern series is great. Rebirth was great. Green Lantern Corps. is great.
I consider 'bad writing,' when you force events into happening instead of letting them grow organically over time. Quality of writing is subjective and it's perfectly acceptable for you to think the polt for Rebirth was great, but you've already indicated that you don't.
Hal Jordan was on a little show called Super Friends.
Not as much as the Wonder Twins, and they're not really all that recognizable, to be honest. Hal Jordan would be less so. Hal Jordan is the favorite of a vocal group of older DC fans, they are not few, but they are hardly a majority. The rest of the world knows nothing about him. Even SNL skits have John Stewart.
And I remember Kyle Rayner when he first showed up, and I remember for years and years the letters printed in the letters section of the comics of how the fans disliked Kyle so much. I didn't see these letters about a "hot young guy that made cool stuff" with his ring. That's what the big-wigs and writers at the time WANTED people to think.
If the big wigs wanted people to think Kyle was "all that," why would they have put hate letters in their letters column? This arguement is unredeemably illogical. Please drop it.
Well he learned he couldn't be the Spectre anymore. That he can't be a vengeful being. There were some rather large reprecussions to the spirit of the Spectre going away from him as well.
Again, palpable inner demons aren't the same as actual character development... I'll go read it again in case the reason he couldn't be Spectre again was a valid result of his personal experiences, but this, IF true, would be the exception to Hal's "Character development" and not the rule.
Deep down, he also wants Sinestro to be his ally, not his enemy. The way it "should" be.
Which is actually cool. So Hal's not completely worthless as a character. Notice the lack of quotes. I actually mean that.
Kyle was never a leader. The corps. fell apart, he went on a ridiculous wild goose chase and abandoned earth because he was being a spoiled *****. And because he was a wussy, he gets dumped by his ****ty girlfriend.
Kyle made mistakes? No surprise there... Kyle's got gashing gaping character flaws? Man... you coulda fooled me... isn't this the same guy who was scared to stand up to Superman until he was darn close to God himself? The same guy who ACCIDENTALLY created a universe shaking villain out of his self doubt? That's what I call entertainment, man. But none of this takes away from the fact that he's saved the universe a few times, and been instrumental in a dozen.
Hal is a leader, unlike Kyle. And they needed his leadership at that time.
Ollie gave his approval of Kyle, that seemed pretty significant to me.
Also, Hal had constantly given his approval and confidence to Kyle before. Not to mention, everyone said Rebirth was just a way to kill Kyle off which did not happen, because Johns is a Kyle fan...excuse me, FANBOY for Kyle in your words. But I saw Kyle fighting the fight at the end just like everyone else. Hal might've been the true leader and hero that day, but Kyle is and never was the leader that Hal is.
What do they need Hal's leadership for? I mean really? What is Hal bringing to the table that is in anyway crucial? Why does Kyle need approval from anyone... I could understand back when he first came out, but now? He's already proven himself to the universe a dozen times... what Hal and Ollie say can't add to or take away from that.
To me, what they did to Hal Jordan with Parallax, while it was very dark and dramatic and was a big deal...I mean...how do you bring Hal back to that logically?
Well he was still around as Spectre, they built up how he was atoning for his issues. Put up another Parallax... a dark guardian who takes all the battery's energy for himself... Or Jade becomes Parallax... or whatever. Spectre's guides John and Kyle through the intro steps, they can't stop it/her/whatever, and Spectre steps in at the last moment to prevent the new Parallax from doing the same things he was trying to do.
Spectre talks him/it/her down and redeems her, thus redeeming himself. Spectre's transfers to some other being and, through some crazy hook, Hal wakes up somewhere, just the way he was before he died, just, with less power within his body. Though, he could have some internal Lantern or some other issue that allows him to continue heroing as a senior and justified honoree.
Quite honestly, I buy more that Hal was twisted and seduced by evil rather than becoming evil himself. Because deep down, I believe Hal is a good and decent person. And to just have him murder his closest friends and go into Parallax like that, it just felt wrong to me.
Emerald Dawn, there you go, Hal is pretty fallible in that.
As in his origin story? Yes, he was very fallible when he begun. Once upon a time Hal was infallible, sadly, this is no longer the case, and I imagine his infallibility came on quite a bit before ET.
And while I certainly beleive that Hal is, deep down, a good and decent person, I still believe he is, and should be capable, of dark and evil malevolent things, because he is a person. No matter how noble and good, everyone is capable of doing evil in extraordinary situations. Hal's superhero life has been one extraordinary situation right after another. He's capable of murdering his closest friends.
Maybe it means for Hal's personal character, he is a good guy and that's why he's Green Lantern.
I don't understand what you've said. How does what other people, regardless of their physical relationship to Hal, have to do with his personal character? I understand that you think he's a good guy and that's why he's GL, but what does that have to do with Parallax and Spectre? What is the relationship?
Kyle's always been that way.
Not lately... not until Hal showed up.
Batman? Batman deserved a good f'n punch in the face. I bet every other league member wanted to do it. Its awesome that someone finally did.
I disagree. Batman's a jerk, yes, but until OMAC, Batman, not unlike Hal, had always been correct. He, unlike Hal, hadn't always been nice about, nor is Batman particularly sane, but the only reason to be mad at Batman is because of overexposure in the media. Another case of Writer injecting out-of-story motivations into their story-writing, which is, in most credible writing schools, BAD writing.
But perhaps I'm judging. Tell me why Batman deserves to be punched in the face? Why would the other Leagers want to do so?
I thought it was a good story. You know what sucks? Hal becoming evil and murdering the Green Lanters and destroying the Green Lantern corps.
Earlier you excused Johns' Rebirth storyline on the grounds that he had to undo something you claimed was "rediculous" and "undoable." Now you're saying you like it. Please elaborate on these two, apparently conflicting statements.
Well right now he's trying to rebuild his life and his home from scratch. He's trying to start over and I find that compelling. Can he do it after everything that's happened? Everything that happened to him and everything he did?
The point of Rebirth was that he didn't do anything, Parallax, the yellow impurity, did all the bad things. As for things that happened to him, that edge of his possible storylines are diminished by the fact that the vast majority of his life is retconned back into existance. He's also a Green Lantern ("the best" it seems) and the moment he gets his supporting cast (which can be done in three issues tops at the writer's discretion), he'll have his life back. Hal is hardly going to be sweating trying to find a place to lay his head at night.
GL1 said:I'm reading you loud and clear, I suggested an ensemble cast. You said we didn't need that. I said we didn't need Hal Jordan, we could use Kyle, John or Guy just as easily. You now mention Kyle's position in present comic books continuity, while nice, has little to do with the continuity of a possible movie. This is still the movie forum, and are comic book discussions are only relevant as far as they have possible bearing on a possible movie.
Of course, but Kishimoto and Kakashi aren't written as though they are supposed to be unequivocally "the best" and there are characters in Naruto who don't like Kakashi and/or Kishimoto, you know, other than villains. Not everyone in the world of Naruto considers Kakashi and/or Kishimoto the best in powers and character. They are great characters, with great real flaws, and are well written, even though they are the writer's favorite.
Hal Jordan is considered "the best" by his supporting cast, in both powers and character, (except that Stupid Batman ). People who don't like him are few and far between and are painted as hatable for their lack of reverence for Hal Jordan. Kishimoto and Kakashi are not written in fanboyism while Hal is. If you do not see the difference say so. If you do not think the difference is important. Say so.
Not as much as the Wonder Twins, and they're not really all that recognizable, to be honest. Hal Jordan would be less so. Hal Jordan is the favorite of a vocal group of older DC fans, they are not few, but they are hardly a majority. The rest of the world knows nothing about him. Even SNL skits have John Stewart.
If the big wigs wanted people to think Kyle was "all that," why would they have put hate letters in their letters column? This arguement is unredeemably illogical. Please drop it.
Again, palpable inner demons aren't the same as actual character development... I'll go read it again in case the reason he couldn't be Spectre again was a valid result of his personal experiences, but this, IF true, would be the exception to Hal's "Character development" and not the rule.
Kyle made mistakes? No surprise there... Kyle's got gashing gaping character flaws? Man... you coulda fooled me... isn't this the same guy who was scared to stand up to Superman until he was darn close to God himself? The same guy who ACCIDENTALLY created a universe shaking villain out of his self doubt? That's what I call entertainment, man. But none of this takes away from the fact that he's saved the universe a few times, and been instrumental in a dozen.
What do they need Hal's leadership for? I mean really? What is Hal bringing to the table that is in anyway crucial? Why does Kyle need approval from anyone... I could understand back when he first came out, but now? He's already proven himself to the universe a dozen times... what Hal and Ollie say can't add to or take away from that.
Well he was still around as Spectre, they built up how he was atoning for his issues. Put up another Parallax... a dark guardian who takes all the battery's energy for himself... Or Jade becomes Parallax... or whatever. Spectre's guides John and Kyle through the intro steps, they can't stop it/her/whatever, and Spectre steps in at the last moment to prevent the new Parallax from doing the same things he was trying to do.
Spectre talks him/it/her down and redeems her, thus redeeming himself. Spectre's transfers to some other being and, through some crazy hook, Hal wakes up somewhere, just the way he was before he died, just, with less power within his body. Though, he could have some internal Lantern or some other issue that allows him to continue heroing as a senior and justified honoree.
As in his origin story? Yes, he was very fallible when he begun. Once upon a time Hal was infallible, sadly, this is no longer the case, and I imagine his infallibility came on quite a bit before ET.
And while I certainly beleive that Hal is, deep down, a good and decent person, I still believe he is, and should be capable, of dark and evil malevolent things, because he is a person. No matter how noble and good, everyone is capable of doing evil in extraordinary situations. Hal's superhero life has been one extraordinary situation right after another. He's capable of murdering his closest friends.
I don't understand what you've said. How does what other people, regardless of their physical relationship to Hal, have to do with his personal character? I understand that you think he's a good guy and that's why he's GL, but what does that have to do with Parallax and Spectre? What is the relationship?
Not lately... not until Hal showed up.
I disagree. Batman's a jerk, yes, but until OMAC, Batman, not unlike Hal, had always been correct. He, unlike Hal, hadn't always been nice about, nor is Batman particularly sane, but the only reason to be mad at Batman is because of overexposure in the media. Another case of Writer injecting out-of-story motivations into their story-writing, which is, in most credible writing schools, BAD writing.
But perhaps I'm judging. Tell me why Batman deserves to be punched in the face? Why would the other Leagers want to do so?
Earlier you excused Johns' Rebirth storyline on the grounds that he had to undo something you claimed was "rediculous" and "undoable." Now you're saying you like it. Please elaborate on these two, apparently conflicting statements.
The point of Rebirth was that he didn't do anything, Parallax, the yellow impurity, did all the bad things. As for things that happened to him, that edge of his possible storylines are diminished by the fact that the vast majority of his life is retconned back into existance. He's also a Green Lantern ("the best" it seems) and the moment he gets his supporting cast (which can be done in three issues tops at the writer's discretion), he'll have his life back. Hal is hardly going to be sweating trying to find a place to lay his head at night.
TheVileOne said:Someone should just do a poll about who they want to see a Green Lantern movie focused on then. I bet you the majority will vote for Hal Jordan.
Not for the movie. The movie should be focused on Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, with perhaps some of the alien GL's for support. You can do the ensemble books in the comics, for the movie you want the focus to be on one major character.
I still don't see Hal as never wrong. For one thing, I still find him to be too naive, which I think is a problem. I still see Hal as a more flawed character than say SUPERMAN. You want to talk about a character that's virtually never wrong and has no flaws . . .
I think there's good reason for that. Even after becoming Parallax he still sacrificed himself to save the planet and he resurrected his best friend from death. As for Naruto, so far, the only people that hate Kakashi are bad guys. Even his greatest rivals loves him.
I've indicated, that yes, the way the explained things wasn't the best. But I found the story of bringing Hal back and the threat and all the Green Lanterns uniting to be an awesome one.
The deal with Hal had been growing for a long time. He had been the Spectre for years and it grew to a point where he couldn't be the Spectre any longer, and he had to finally stop trying to redeem himself in that way. For years, he was constantly avoiding and shying away from going back to being a Green Lantern, even though he was offered it constantly. Perhaps he was afraid, and now he is owning up to it and faced it.
If John's so popular and recognizeable, I wonder why Hal is the one with his own book and not John.
They had the Kyle lover letters mixed in as well every now and again. But I didn't see this widespread fandom about this young, hot guy who makes cool stuff with his ring.
I'd call it character development that Hal was no longer afraid of trying to start over.
Sure. And I like Kyle. But he still isn't a leader. There are leaders and there are followers. Kyle is a follower. Even in circle of fire he still didn't feel like a leader at all.
Hal Jordan just has this strength and integrity of character that is hard to match.
I don't know why Kyle needs approval. Despite everything, I'd say he did a pretty good job, still no Hal, but a good job. But he himself was always constantly striving for approval and acknowledgement from his peers considering the shoes he had to fill. He has this thing of acting like a little fish in a big pond. Its a character drawback, and its part of why he can't be a strong leader. He seemed a little different after he became Ion again, so maybe it will change now.
I don't see how that makes any more sense than Green Lantern: Rebirth is.
In the eyes of many characters, Hal had ALREADY redeemed himself. He was offered to be Green Lantern again before he died. Kyle offered that he could've altered the timeline to keep Parallax from ever happening and Hal could come back. Part of the point of the story was that Hal had to make this choice on his own. He had to do it voluntarily.
Hey we'll see. The new series is still rather new and I'm sure things will come up down the line. I still think its too early to say things like that.
It means, his personality as a person could no longer go along with the task of being the Spectre. They didn't gel.
Yes he was still like that. All the way up through the end of his comic.
I'd call what Batman did in Tower of Babel majorly wrong. You can justify what he did, but he's so paranoid and egotistical, he never even thinks . . . "Holy crap, what happens if I go bad? How will they stop me?!"
Hal isn't the first guy to sock him one either. Ollie did it as well.
There is that whole Tower of Babel and OMAC thing.
Good art, and overall I found it compelling. I have a little ambivalence about the explanation, but overall I can deal with it. Its not so stupid as a virginal Gwen Stacy having sex with Norman Osbourne and having his babies. I'm not sure I can put it much simpler than that.
I was thinking more along the lines of rebuilding Coast City and bringing people back to it.
As for the yellow impurity, well its like the one ring, it can corrupt and twist even the kindest and greatest of people. And for a character that was usually seen as noble and upright . . . I'd say it works.
Warhammer said:Wow, Man.
He's only a comic book character, not your friend.
I didnt mean to offend you in some strange way.
You are getting all worked up over a comic book character.
comicbookmaster said:Hal jordan is the best next to John stewart!!!