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Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?

this version of Clark is such a cypher that it would have done wonders just to figure out what makes him tick.


This is a huge point. Superman is the wrong character to have as a cypher because the audience comes with so many preconceived notions about him. This cypherness also explains why the movie was so divisive. It's retroactively become less divisive by virtue of the even more divisive sequels, but at the time MoS was very "best ever"/"worst ever." Because very few people are actually evaluating the movie as much as they're evaluating what they've projected into the movie. So it's supporters say things like "the audience should have empathized" which is really "you should have projected onto the cypher what I projected onto the cypher" because the basis for their experience comes from outside the film.

Good post. The truth is, Superman doesn't 'have' to surrounded by his usual cast. They can put Superman into literally any situation the movie requires.
Breathe new life into Superman by changing his surroundings.
For instance they could adapt the 'Elite' storyline. Have Superman hang out with a blood thirsty group who don't care what rules they break as long as the job gets done. Have the public gravitate to this new team because they get results then you can show the audience the difference in character between Superman and why Superman will never give up his morals regardless of dwindling popularity.

1. Surround Superman was an engaging and compelling supporting cast (for example the Elite)
2. Have Superman's true character come out through conflict not exposition.
Agreed. Elite would be solid. It's so funny that the Superman stories and elements needed are such one-offs. It creates these two really different narratives of what Superman stories are or are not.


Superman should be a beacon. He should be a mentor. A leader and a voice of reason. He's the ultimate equalizer in every setting. Let him teach.

If you want to change his surroundings then how about a creative movie twist on Bizarro World? That would be a pretty neat concept to explore on the big screen. Instead of the Bizarro character being evil or a twisted version of Superman, challenge the art of Superman's moral code and have him figure out how to communicate a backwards approach of ethics. It could be a funny and heartwarming Adventure with a lot of ups and downs of the misunderstood nature of how Bizarro's think. Adventures in places like the Phantom Zone that warps reality could test Superman's abilities to the limits.

This is why I like the concept of Superman appearing in Shazam! and mentoring Billy. I always said you learn something new every day when the student becomes the teacher since you learn something new about yourself when things are being presented out loud and personal. We need more of that to get to know what makes this DCEU Superman tick other than heat vision, freeze breath and x-ray vision. Kal has been put through the ringer in 3 movies. Now let's see how he feels about that and allow those experience's make him a more rounded and sincere version of the character.
This is a great example. It seems all the good stories that allow us to really explore Superman are outside of Metropolis. Outside of the (Daily?) Planet. Superman seems to be relatively unique in that his best stories and his status quo are completely separate. Even All Star Superman brings Lois into the story by giving her super powers.
 
Everyone wants to explore the character. He's not all that complicated. But his situations are. What's wrong with a good old fashioned action flick?
 
Everyone wants to explore the character. He's not all that complicated. But his situations are. What's wrong with a good old fashioned action flick?
Action flicks revolve around the hero being the underdog.
Superman is not the underdog.
 
Everyone wants to explore the character. He's not all that complicated. But his situations are. What's wrong with a good old fashioned action flick?


They really aren't though.



Superman invented the genre, so if you can't write Superman you can't write anybody. If anything he should be the easiest and most simple to write.


It's these cynical writers that make it needlessly more complex than it has to be.
 
They really aren't though.



Superman invented the genre, so if you can't write Superman you can't write anybody. If anything he should be the easiest and most simple to write.


It's these cynical writers that make it needlessly more complex than it has to be.

What I mean by that is Superman's most compelling stories are usually situations he can't just punch his way out of.
 
What I mean by that is Superman's most compelling stories are usually situations he can't just punch his way out of.


Agreed of course.



But I believe Zach Snyder would like to have a word with you... :yay:
 
They really aren't though.

Superman invented the genre, so if you can't write Superman you can't write anybody. If anything he should be the easiest and most simple to write.

It's these cynical writers that make it needlessly more complex than it has to be.


I disagree. The genre is complicated. I think the last big movie had an alien conqueror who toyed with reality, space and time. No, that's not right, the last big movie had a time traveler trying to kill a little kid and a whole mess of twists in order to make the hero engaging, which only worked because of the very human non-superheroic (and thus non-Superman) drama of [blackout]watching his wife die[/blackout]


If you can't handle at least three version of Kryptonite, you couldn't even write Superman back in the day. Nowadays, if you can't handle DBZ-scale combat, you might as well sit your behind down and write someone easier, like, well... Batman.



Kind of depends on the villain and the obstacles you put in his way, doesn't it?


Not really. First thing that prevents that is that Superman's reputation proceeds him. Second thing that prevents that is when you get someone who can trounce Superman who doesn't have his morals, you get flattened Metropolis. I think MoS did a very bad job of showing how Superman's desire to save people fails to do so when he's outmatched, but the end result, if he's truly outmatched, should be similar. And when you have that much destruction, it's not really an action movie anymore.
 
You're missing the point.

Pa Kent speaks to the central conflict of the film, but tells us nothing about why Clark ultimately wants to do good, proven by the fact that Clark is already good. He's already saving people for reasons we're never clued in on.

Pa Kent's speeches do inform the reason Clark ultimately wants to be Superman (which is the central story of the franchise)
even if they don't illuminate why Clark himself is basically good.

The reason Clark ultimately wants to do good in a grand sense is a combination of his experiences with his parents, Jor-El and Lara, and his time with Lois Lane.

Early in the film, he's saving lives because he can, and he wants to in order to prevent disasters. It's inherent in what's happening. And if that was the only reason, then while not being an absolutely faithful and thematically complete-compared-to-the-comics one or particularly satisfying in terms of classic Superman's rationale, then it would still be a valid reason for a character to do something, as well as relevant to the themes of the franchise. But he's ostensibly doing it to prevent suffering, the same reason most people tend to save lives or help others.

In fact, the film, as I have pointed out, actually SHOWS people (children) suffering, and shows Clark seeing them suffer and taking action to prevent that. Why is that being discounted in assessing his motivations? That single scene essentially shows that he saves people so that they don't suffer and die, which is generally why Superman saves people in other media, isn't it?

Conversely, the great power speech can be directly traced to Spider-man's motivations because it gives him a concrete moral ideal that changes him.

Pa Kent does not, merely telling him vaguely that he's going to be important and that he should also maybe let kids die because he's that important.

That's not all Pa Kent tells him. Pa's interactions with Clark directly inform Clark's motivations, and I really don't see how it can be argued that it doesn't change him as a person as well. It's partially due to Pa Kent's lessons that Clark hides what he can do from humanity. The speeches and his interactions with Pa about his abilities have a clear impact on the character and his choices, and he verbalizes this to Lois.

That isn't a motivation.

It's very much the beginning of Clark's motivation.

"Find out who you are and why you are here".

It's what drives him to search for the truth of his origins when the alien ship turns up.

Furthermore, wanting to honor his legacy is also a motivation, and is a motivation found in the film.

Sure, Pa says how "good character or bad" will affect the outcome of how the world changes, but he doesn't tip the scale in telling Clark how and why specifically to be a good person like Uncle Ben's speech, because he's already a good person. That's the entire point.

But wait, isn't Peter Parker also generally already a good person before he becomes Spider-Man? He chooses not to do the good that he knows he can do in one instance to spite someone, but he seems a decent sort prior to that.

As I recall, Uncle Ben, in the Raimi film, aside from saying "Just because you can beat him up, doesn't mean you should", also tells Peter "just be careful who you change into", which is pretty much what Pa Kent tells Clark in MOS, isn't it? They're both sequences about using power responsibility.

As pleasing as it is to the ear and as classic as it has become, "With Great power comes great responsibility" doesn't, in itself mean much of anything except just that; power should be used responsibly. Which again, is an idea that is conveyed by Jonathan Kent in MOS.

Jonathan basically tells Clark to consider the fears and concerns of others, to consider how the revelation that he exists will impact humanity and its perception about it's place in the universe, and to consider the bigger picture in any decision he makes about how to use his special heritage. That's an important moral lesson in itself, I would think.

We're shown characters we don't know in peril and he saves them.
We don't know who these people are or, more importantly, what they mean to Superman, but he saves them. Just like he always does.

I don't see why that especially matters. He's clearly a classmate of the first characters he saves. How would this be any different than Spider-Man saving random people after he becomes Spider-Man, or any other hero saving people we haven't been introduced to?

But... why? You get how this doesn't answer the question of what motivates Superman? Like.... at all?

You keep saying "what motivates Superman" while complaining that we don't know why Clark as a child saved lives.

Clark as a child and Superman are not the same thing conceptually.

"Superman" is the decision Clark Kent makes to put on the uniform and become a symbol. No, the film does not explain why he chooses to use his powers to save people when he is a child, but the film does show that he uses his powers to show hope to humanity and to honor his heritages, and that this is why he becomes Superman.

Most films don't exactly explain the seeds of basic human goodness or evil in their protagonists, they simply contextualize it within the plot and within the relevant conflicts. It's certainly not a requirement of an action movie to do such a thing.

Almost every worthwhile superhero film ever made has some sort of reasoning explicitly shown to explain why our hero does what they do (Cap doesn't like bullies, Spider-man wants to use his powers responsibly, etc.),

Ok, so if "I don't like bullies" is sufficient motivation, do we REALLY need the film to say "I don't like people suffering and dying" while showing someone acting to prevent such a thing in order to understand and to believe that not wanting people to suffer and die is a legitimate motivation for saving people, and that this is a legitimate reason for him to do good?

but in this case our protagonist's motivation is just "obvious" and not worth including at any point? Okay.

They do include the reason for his motivation. It's one of the earliest scenes after the Krypton stuff.

No one makes a speech about it because it's...as you said, obvious. It's a very common concept.

I guess the filmmakers thought that since audiences live in a world of stories and in some cases the real world where people save people because they have the skills to do so and don't want to see others perish or suffer because of the force that we call basic human decency that audiences would get that very simple and fairly common concept.

Superman does what he does because he wants to save people, wants to honor his legacy, and because he is selfless. We see each of these factors throughout MAN OF STEEL, and he only briefly questions the selflessness aspect in BVS, as it's part of his conflict there. Why he saves people when he has immense power is not the part of the film that should require an interesting motivation or exploration. It's, again, a very common, basic concept, especially in the superhero realm.

I'm not saying that couldn't ever work as I don't think it's some unwritten rule that every superhero has to have a clearly laid out motivation, but this version of Clark is such a cypher that it would have done wonders just to figure out what makes him tick. There are many reasons why Clark didn't connect with audiences, and it all boils down to how underwritten he is. That's why he's unlikable. It isn't because he's burdened and serious, we've seen that work before so that doesn't add up. It's because we ultimately don't understand who he is or why he does what he does.

Agree to disagree. I think it's arguable that most general audience members don't necessarily know how to analyze good writing, bad writing, or know when something is underwritten. They know what they like based on how a concept makes them feel. And they like positivity more than negativity. Especially in a film that many view as a form of escapism.

He does have a clearly laid out motivation in the film. What the film didn't do was deliver that motivation in exposition, or have Clark say his reasons for doing things out loud.

But actions aren't meaningless when interpreting someone's motivations, and visual storytelling isn't meaningless in a film.

Plenty of people do understand who he is or why he does what he does. They've spent two films exploring it, and even gave a nod to it in Justice League.
 
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Firstly and foremost, we need creativity. The saying goes that "The hero is just as good as his villain.."

A good superhero movie always comes down to the simplicity of good versus evil...and Superman is THEE definition of good. Every cinematic version of Superman the audience ever saw was basically Zod or Lex Luthor. Superman's rogues need to be creativitly expanded upon in order for the audience to buy into the world of difficulty and suspense around Superman himself. We need fresh ideas and creative takes on Superman's rogues to bring out a completely different side and challenge to the character we have yet to see and that starts with creative juices.
 

You could have just saved yourself a good amount of time if you had paid attention to why Uncle Ben was brought up in the first place. Go back a page and let's try this again:

Uncle Ben taught Peter to use his abilities for the greater good. His first taste of power and success led him to act selfishly and irresponsibly. He learned to be a good person from this lesson, and we see this dramatized clearly and coherently because the choices he makes before and after this speech are different. That's because this was clearly his motivation. He was, from what we saw, not a particularly good person before this and your attempt to assert otherwise tells me everything I need to know about how pedantic you're willing to get to die on this hill.

Clark is doing good from day one for no real reason that we ever really understand beyond this lame "he's a good person so duh" shorthand that you have to type up a ten paragraph essay justifying. This clearly has nothing to do with Pa Kent's speeches.

That's it. That was the debate from the start.

As for the rest: "he doesn't want to see people suffer because he's a good person" is lame, lazy, and underwritten. It's dramatic shorthand that relies on us projecting things onto this Superman because of lame, inert writing. Showing us him continually saving people does not explain why he wants to save people. This isn't hard.

Agree to disagree. Most people don't necessarily know how to analyze good writing, bad writing, or underwritten screenwork. They know what they like based on how a concept makes them feel. And they like positivity more than negativity. Especially in a film that many view as a form of escapism.

Funny how serious superheroes who operate with a heavy burden (aka "negativity") have worked on numerous occasions before until Zack Snyder, writer and director of Sucker Punch and a slew of other bad movies, got his hands on it.

It's almost like the execution matters, and that blaming the audience instead of discussing the film-maker's potential shortcomings is a lame copout.
 
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Firstly and foremost, we need creativity. The saying goes that "The hero is just as good as his villain.."
I have to say, it's my personal opinion that that saying is actually kind of nonsense, tbh. Some of the best of the genre were totally unremarkable on the villain front - Iron Man, Batman Begins, The Avengers (I know people disagree with me on that, but Loki in that film could have been any basic villain, imo), Wonder Woman, to name a few - and they were great because their heroes were front and center and they were great. Now sometimes a great villain does make for a great movie, like TDK, but it's not a requirement and actually has very little bearing on the quality of the hero or how well the movie is received if it excels in other areas.

Now don't get me wrong, obviously I want a great villain in a Superman flick. But the insinuation that a great Superman (or any hero) story can't be told without one is what I take issue with. There are plenty of great Superman stories where the villain was SO not the point. And right now, I'd much rather get a Superman movie that does a fantastic job portraying my favorite hero and manages to connect him with the general audience in a way that he hasn't done in a long time, than one where the villain's the obvious highlight.
 
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I have to agree with flickchick85. There are plenty of great superheroes and superhero films with mediocre villains. So I don't find that phrase accurate at all.
 
I would go one step further and say that the CB movies where the villain is amazing is usually when the hero has already been established. Just from the top of my head:

1. TDK - we could get a movie that focussed a lot on Joker only coz Batman was established nicely in BB.

2. Spiderman: Homecoming - This one is a little tougher but Marvel cut a few corners coz we have had so many Spiderman movies in recent times.

3. Black Panther - Spent more time building Wakanda and Killmonger coz they spent a nice chunk of Civil War establishing BP himself.

So the point is that you spend enough time establishing the hero with good movies, aim a little lower and then for the sequel you can swing for the hills with a great villain character that you can actually spend time developing coz by this time your hero is already established and hopefully beloved by the audience.
 
I knew you'd respond with a wall of text that goes down numerous unrelated rabbit trails without ever actually addressing the heart of the matter. Let's try this again, and if you don't address this head on then consider this conversation over:

What heart of the matter? That Spider-Man's story was better executed?

Uncle Ben taught Peter to use his abilities for the greater good.

And Jonathan Kent implies much the same to Clark...

His first taste of power and success led him to act selfishly and irresponsibly. He learned to be a good person from this lesson, and we see this dramatized clearly and coherently because the choices he makes before and after this speech are different. That's because this was clearly his motivation. He was, from what we saw, not a particularly good person before this and your attempt to assert otherwise tells me everything I need to know about how pedantic you're willing to get to die on this hill.

Is this what you want me to address head on? Why? This is just you repeating the story of Spider-Man. This has nothing to do with Superman. I mean, I can type out the story of Superman in a similar paragraph, but I don't see a point in arguing about how well Spider-Man's arc was executed. We're not talking about Spider-Man. We're talking about Superman.

What is dramatized clearly and coherently is Spider-Man's arc. Peter's arc to becoming Spider-Man. Clark's arc to becoming Superman is also dramatized clearly and coherently. The choices Clark makes after becoming Superman are different than the ones he makes before doing so as well.

I still don't get why we're talking about Spider-Man so much.

Clark is doing good from day one for no real reason that we ever really understand beyond this lame "he's a good person so duh" shorthand that you have to type up a ten paragraph essay justifying. This clearly has nothing to do with Pa Kent's speeches.

I'll type a few sentences, since wordiness seems to bother you (when you're not retelling the story of Spider-Man). The reason he does good is perfectly clear. It may not be satisfying to you for whatever reason, but it's perfectly clear and reasonably conveyed within the film. He's doing it so people don't suffer and die. I'm sorry that you don't consider that a "real reason".

Oops, I typed a paragraph.

That's it. That was the debate from the start. Go back a page and see where this started. Type up some more windy essays that try to assert that Peter was a good person beforehand, or how Pa Kent's words tie into him ultimately accepting his Superman persona, you've dodged the issue by muddying the water with a lengthy post that added very little to the actual discussion

But I already typed the windy essays.

I've "dodged the issue" by writing a bunch of words related to the issue?

What you're doing now is an ad hominem logical fallacy. You're not even addressing my argument anymore. You say I didn't/don't add to the discussion, but you're not even discussing the discussion at this point.

As for the rest: "he doesn't want to see people suffer because he's a good person" is lame, lazy, and underwritten.

I didn't say that it was particularly compelling or unique. I said there's a reason shown for it.

It's dramatic shorthand that relies on us projecting things onto this Superman because of lame, inert writing. Showing us him continually saving people does not explain why he wants to save people. This isn't hard.

It...does explain why he saves people, though. Why is not wanting people to suffer and die a good enough reason to want to save them?

They did show why. For the same reason any reasonable person (barring adrenaline junkies and gloryhounds) want to save people. So those people don't suffer and come to harm.

Funny how serious superheroes who operate with a heavy burden (aka "negativity") have worked on numerous occasions before until Zack Snyder, writer and director of Sucker Punch and a slew of other bad movies, got his hands on it.

As I pointed out, he's not been connected to because he's not considered likeable. You seem to have ignored that bit of my statements.

Many of the serious and burdened superheroes you mention were nontheless portrayed as likeable. I didn't say no serious superhero could work. I specifically addressed the likability factor in the adaption of this one.

It's almost like the execution matters, and that blaming the audience instead of discussing the film-maker's potential shortcomings is a lame copout.

I didn't blame the audience. I specifically said that the character was not considered likeable or portrayed as such, and pointed out that this is because the filmmaker's focus wasn't on him being likeable.

I'm not the first person to make this connection. It's pretty common knowledge at this point. To the point that WB tried to FORCE the character to be likeable with JUSTICE LEAGUE reshoots.
 
What heart of the matter? That Spider-Man's story was better executed?

That, despite your original assertion otherwise and some surface-level similarities, Pa Kent's speeches are ultimately not comparable to nor do they serve the same function as Uncle Ben's, particularly when you actually look at the original context Ben was brought up in this conversation. Seriously, go back and look.

Ben was brought up as an example of a catch-all moral philosophy to cleanly explain everything about why a character wants to do good, in direct contrast to Superman who does not have this and is good just because. You tried to assert that Pa Kent fits the bill, showing that you missed the point, and that doesn't even touch on how wildly different their two approaches are. Ben teaches a selfish Peter that with great power comes great responsibility to save drowning kids, while Pa Kent teaches an already-good Clark that with great power comes great responsibility to be careful and consider letting kids drown to protect yourself.

I've been saying this the whole time while you keep splintering my posts up to the point where you don't even know what the debate is:

We're not talking about Spider-Man. We're talking about Superman.

I still don't get why we're talking about Spider-Man so much.

You clearly haven't been paying attention. Go back a page, read why Uncle Ben was originally brought up, read how you mentioned Uncle Ben when you jumped into this discussion, read how I disagreed and concisely outlined why, and then realize you could have saved yourself a ton of time if you had actually read what I was saying instead of splitting up my posts and addressing it sentence by sentence as if that's a remotely productive way to have a discussion.

I didn't say that it was particularly compelling or unique. I said there's a reason shown for it.

Where? You can't point to it, because someone merely performing an action is fundamentally not the same thing as showing/dramatizing their reasons for doing so. Again, this relies entirely on you projecting something onto the character because the film-makers turned him into a cypher.
 
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I have to say, it's my personal opinion that that saying is actually kind of nonsense, tbh. Some of the best of the genre were totally unremarkable on the villain front - Iron Man, Batman Begins, The Avengers (I know people disagree with me on that, but Loki in that film could have been any basic villain, imo), Wonder Woman, to name a few - and they were great because their heroes were front and center and they were great. Now sometimes a great villain does make for a great movie, like TDK, but it's not a requirement and actually has very little bearing on the quality of the hero or how well the movie is received if it excels in other areas.

Now don't get me wrong, obviously I want a great villain in a Superman flick. But the insinuation that a great Superman (or any hero) story can't be told without one is what I take issue with. There are plenty of great Superman stories where the villain was SO not the point. And right now, I'd much rather get a Superman movie that does a fantastic job portraying my favorite hero and manages to connect him with the general audience in a way that he hasn't done in a long time, than one where the villain's the obvious highlight.

I agree with that and there's no way in hell Superman can be overshadowed by any other in his next film. The art of making any Superman story good is charm. Henry has charm, wit and personality, something the next film needs to have a ton of. I just think a good;fresh; creative villain of Superman's rogues in his canon, one that the casual audience hasn't seen before, can do wonders in bringing out Clark's personality in how he reacts to those around him. Kal is at his best when he's interacting with the public and those around him. A good villain can help that process of Superman sweeping the audience off their feet where we all swoon. Likeability is key. Superman was overshadowed once in his own film with Superman Returns where Richard White was a more likable character in every way and that was a disservice to Superman. We can't have that again. Superman needs to be top bill and the most likable chap on screen. Everything else will follow.
 
Use Superman : Unbound as a template and go from there I say. Great animated film that would do all the things people are crying out for and then imagine Henry being that Superman.

All kinds of win frankly.
 
But in MOS why does Clark Kent want to be Superman?

I think it's possible that in the movie he doesn't; he feels compelled to, literally by Zod coming in and giving him an ultimatum and more generally Zod symbolizing that he is better than a lot of others who would misuse power and it's therefore necessary to try to counter them.

Clark is doing good from day one for no real reason that we ever really understand beyond this lame "he's a good person so duh" shorthand that you have to type up a ten paragraph essay justifying.

As for the rest: "he doesn't want to see people suffer because he's a good person" is lame, lazy, and underwritten.

Like most characters he is a mix of virtues and flaws. He does good but he also admits he wanted to hurt kids who try to hurt him (and Jonathan say that's understandable but not really good or appropriate, especially given his potential) and later tolerated a bar bully's harassment but then controversially destroyed his truck.
 
Use Superman : Unbound as a template and go from there I say. Great animated film that would do all the things people are crying out for and then imagine Henry being that Superman.

All kinds of win frankly.

Unbound was the worst one.
 
That, despite your original assertion otherwise and some surface-level similarities, Pa Kent's speeches are ultimately not comparable to nor do they serve the same function as Uncle Ben's, particularly when you actually look at the original context Ben was brought up in this conversation. Seriously, go back and look.

Ben was brought up as an example of a catch-all moral philosophy to cleanly explain everything about why a character wants to do good, in direct contrast to Superman who does not have this and is good just because. You tried to assert that Pa Kent fits the bill, showing that you missed the point, and that doesn't even touch on how wildly different their two approaches are. Ben teaches a selfish Peter that with great power comes great responsibility to save drowning kids, while Pa Kent teaches an already-good Clark that with great power comes great responsibility to be careful and consider letting kids drown to protect yourself.

I've been saying this the whole time while you keep splintering my posts up to the point where you don't even know what the debate is:



You clearly haven't been paying attention. Go back a page, read why Uncle Ben was originally brought up, read how you mentioned Uncle Ben when you jumped into this discussion, read how I disagreed and concisely outlined why, and then realize you could have saved yourself a ton of time if you had actually read what I was saying instead of splitting up my posts and addressing it sentence by sentence as if that's a remotely productive way to have a discussion.



Where? You can't point to it, because someone merely performing an action is fundamentally not the same thing as showing/dramatizing their reasons for doing so. Again, this relies entirely on you projecting something onto the character because the film-makers turned him into a cypher.

I only made the point that there are sequences about power and responsibility in both films. I never indicated it was the same concept at play.
I also made it very clear that I was specifically addressing the concept of Clark’s power and responsibility within MOS, and not addressing the concept of why he is good. I have since clarified that several more times in subsequent posts.

Letting kids drown to protect yourself is not the sum total of Pa Kent's lessons, and I think you know that.

I apologize for addressing key points individually. If you'd prefer a giant block of text, we can go that route.

Where does the film show why he saves people? When the film shows him not letting people suffer and die.

I can point to the scene where the film shows why he does what he does, because it actually exists. And yes, what the film does is both showing and dramatizing, because it does both show and dramatize the event, the issue at hand (saving people), and therefore, Clark’s reasons for doing what he does. It may not be dramatized to the extent you would like, but its dramatized...

Definition of dramatize
dramatized; dramatizing
transitive verb
1 : to adapt (something, such as a novel) for theatrical presentation
2 : to present or represent in a dramatic manner


The event in question is very much presented in a dramatic manner.
The scene features a bunch of people screaming and drowning. The scenes after the rescue scene then address the seriousness of what Clark did, and introduce a key conflict.

All I ever argued was that the films show the reasons he saves people. I never said the film presents a psychologically complex reason for him doing so, or anything along those lines.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not projecting the scene of people suffering who he then saves so that they...don't die. Pretty sure that's actually in the film.
 
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I only made the point that there are sequences about power and responsibility in both films. I never indicated it was the same concept at play.
I also made it very clear that I was specifically addressing the concept of Clark’s power and responsibility within, and not addressing the concet of why he is good. I have since clarified that several more times in subsequent posts.

Letting kids drown to protect yourself is not the sum total of Pa Kent's lessons, and I think you know that.

I apologize for addressing key points individually. If you'd prefer a giant block of text, we can go that route.

Where does the film show why he saves people? When the film shows him not letting people suffer and die.

I can point to the scene where the film shows why he does what he does, because it actually exists. And yes, what the film does is both showing and dramatizing, because it does both show and dramatize the event, the issue at hand (saving people), and therefore, Clark’s reasons for doing what he does. It may not be dramatized to the extent you would like, but its dramatized...

Definition of dramatize
dramatized; dramatizing
transitive verb
1 : to adapt (something, such as a novel) for theatrical presentation
2 : to present or represent in a dramatic manner


The event in question is very much presented in a dramatic manner.
The scene features a bunch of people screaming and drowning. The scenes after the rescue scene then address the seriousness of what Clark did, and introduce a key conflict.

All I ever argued was that the films show the reasons he saves people. I never said the film presents a psychologically complex reason for him doing so, or anything along those lines.

And I'm pretty sure I'm not projecting the scene of people suffering who he then saves so that they...don't die. Pretty sure that's actually in the film.


Chiming in here, him saving people because they're dying is just "he saves people because they need saving" which is circular, and all that does is show us that he *does* save people who need saving, but not *why*. Is it empathy? Is it duty to human life? Is it to live up to his parents' example? Is it fear of failure? Is it guilt? Something to prove? All of these? None? We just... don't know.


Peter Parker's moment doesn't just contain themes of power and responsibility, it dramatizes a specific emotion: guilt. He feels like it's his fault when bad things happen and he doesn't stop them. This gives all of his subsequent actions context, meaning and humanity that they wouldn't have without something so specific. Superman doesn't seem to have an actual or specific 'why' in MoS, or most stories, honestly, and so his actions can often lack that humanity and meaning.
 
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Chiming in here, him saving people because they're dying is just "he saves people because they need saving" which is circular, and all that does is show us that he *does* save people who need saving, but not *why*. Is it empathy? Is it duty to human life? Is it to live up to his parents' example? Is it fear of failure? Is it guilt? Something to prove? All of these? None? We just... don't know.

Actually he saves people because they need saving and because he has the power to do so. His power cannot be removed form the equation here, because it's key to his conflict.

Why is what's actually being shown on film discounted?

I think a reasonable person can draw the conclusion that he saves them so they don't suffer and die. Which equates to basic human compassion for the plight of another, doesn't it? Is that really a stretch?

Is that the most unique reason for saving people ever devised, or the most satisfying portrayal of Superman's altruism ever seen? No, of course not. I understand that these ideas aren't dramatized the way that many would like, but there is is still a reason shown for Clark to save people.

I'm not going to respond to the bit about Parker yet again. I don't care about Peter Parker, and I don't understand people's need to keep telling me about Peter Parker and his story in a Superman thread. I am well aware of the differences in execution between something like MAN OF STEEL and SPIDER-MAN.
 
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I apologize for addressing key points individually.

There's addressing key points individually, and then there's parsing out an argument into increasingly smaller bits as if each handful of sentences operate independently and must start a series of several smaller debates within each post that ultimately don't relate to the actual point of contention.

That's called losing the forest for the trees and we just saw a great example of why it's a terrible way to have a discussion.

I think a reasonable person can draw the conclusion that he saves them so they don't suffer and die. Which equates to basic human compassion for the plight of another. Is that really a stretch?

Bingo. It's not a stretch because that's exactly what the film-makers intended, and that's exactly what I've been saying: projection. We are projecting human compassion onto Clark in leu of an actual motivation. They wanted to use shorthand of showing him saving people to show us that he's a good person without ever showing why.

That's unsatisfying and lazy from a story perspective and that's our entire point. So lazy and unsatisfying, in fact, that you could argue that a motivation isn't actually presented.

Superman saves people. Why? Because.... he's a good person, obviously! He cares about people and doesn't want them to suffer! Uh okay but why exactly does this alien care about people and doesn't want them to suffer? Er..... because he's a good person! Don't think about it too hard!

Every time a villain is written like this, people rightly criticize the hell out of it. Why is this guy killing people and wanting to destroy the world? Because..... he's evil, obviously! It's the same sort of lazy writing here, just on the most iconic superhero of all time, and somehow you seem okay with that.
 
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