Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?


This is what bothers me people blame Synder. Synder didn't write the script Nolan and Goyer did. Don't get me wrong he probably had some input but for most the main fault falls squarely on Nolan and Goyer. When a movie has a bad story line and dialog they jump to the conclusion that it's the directors fault. More times then not it's more the writers fault then the director. Even then it some times not the writers fault but the studios pushing the writers for certain things.

However in this case I blame Nolan and Goyer. They where terrible picks to write a Superman film.

It was Snyder's idea to have Superman kill Zod, so he bought into Goyer's take hook, line, and sinker. And neither Goyer nor Nolan were around for BVS, and Superman was still portrayed terribly, so Snyder deserves all the crap he gets.
 

This is what bothers me people blame Synder. Synder didn't write the script Nolan and Goyer did. Don't get me wrong he probably had some input but for most the main fault falls squarely on Nolan and Goyer. When a movie has a bad story line and dialog they jump to the conclusion that it's the directors fault. More times then not it's more the writers fault then the director. Even then it some times not the writers fault but the studios pushing the writers for certain things.

However in this case I blame Nolan and Goyer. They where terrible picks to write a Superman film.

The most controversial part of the movie was his idea, so yeah I think he should get a good portion of the blame but the true culprit are WB themselves for trying to turn superman and subsequently the entire DCEU into 'batman lite' and they got a controversial director to execute their vision.
 
It was Snyder's idea to have Superman kill Zod, so he bought into Goyer's take hook, line, and sinker. And neither Goyer nor Nolan were around for BVS, and Superman was still portrayed terribly, so Snyder deserves all the crap he gets.

Pretty much this, and I've probably got a sketchy history of Snyder-praising now.

I do think he's brilliant in moments (often visual ones) but I think he allows too much bad material in to be a truly good director. And he seems to have a "edgy kewl" mentality that barely works with Batman and definitely doesn't work for Superman.

MOS did have Goyer elements, and Justice League was half-reshot by Whedon, but BVS is totally his.

At best, it's a misguided art movie, an expression of the nightmarish ramifications of crime-fighting and hero worship-with Malick-esque handheld camerawork.

At worst, it's an accidental parody of everything comic fans hate about Frank Miller's revision, complete with murderous, illogical Batman-the AllStar incarnation would have a field day with Martha! Batfleck.

And the thing tying both aspects together is a camp villain, which somehow makes the narrative feel worse than it is.

I might have given it 6-7 out of ten, but at best, it's a 5. Factoring "accuracy" (there will always be a wonky comic to justify an off characterization) it would most certainly be rotten.

Brad Bird made The Iron Giant. He also made Tommorowland. Bad films happen to even the best of directors.

But with Snyder, I feel like his improvements are changes in visual aesthetic, rather than narrative.

Superman's not realistic enough-"shakey cam, got it!"

Batman V Superman- "Artistic editing and slow-motion-got it!"

And I've only seen the trailers for Justice League, but it feels like "More camp-got it!"

When in reality, the answers lie all along in the reaction of both fans and non-fans. "Too dark" is a generic complaint that generally conveys frustration with a lack of warmhearted pathos to the approaches of certain characters.

"Not exciting enough" may range from a simple thing from not providing enough suspense "beats" or worse yet, not creating good character arcs for audiences to suspend their built-in "boredom.

"No color"-Well, light and grade with skin-tones in mind. The other tones will follow, especially if the costumes are bright to begin with.

"Too much plot" generally means incoherent. Try to figure what your story is about in terms of characterization and individual choice, and build the plot around it. Don't throw in "and then this happens" because it's cool, generally speaking. Because audiences can pick up on these things.

"Bad villain." Villains are hard to get right, because too much sympathy makes it hard to root for the hero, and not enough can make the antagonist one dimensional.

Even dark villains like Ledger's Joker have a certain internal logic- his is proving the extent of human cruelty. Even going so far as his own victimization as evidence and justification for his "tests".

People will say things that are shallow and wrong (MOS Superman didn't SAVE enough people-I'm pretty sure the planet doesn't count :P). It's the directors, screenwriters AND producers' job to read between the lines of what they really mean.

I think Snyder's contribution to the genre was significant in Watchmen. But there was nothing to show that he had the type of flexibility to take on the DCU..and a jillion complaints of the idealogical disconnect between the graphic novel and the film.

I have no more words now. I wanted to support a director who attracts controversy for literally everything he does..but instead of moving on he seems to double down in some ways. It's really sad, because I feel if he scaled back, tackled a few different low-budget genres, and diversified his approach he could be a good director in a kind of shallow "Guy Richie" kinda way.
 
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^Amazingly perceptive post.
 
MOS did have Goyer elements, and Justice League was half-reshot by Whedon, but BVS is totally his.
BvS had Goyer & Terrio "elements" given one writer is rewriting an existing script by the other
 
^ And JAWS was a brutal production, WITH screen rewrites, some at the last minute, by a director who had only two features and was younger than I am at the time.

And I'm not going to mention the rapid-fire approach to Iron Man, or the quickly greenlit Spider-Man 2 which also underwent rewrites. The late Ebert gave both movies 4/4 stars, and are definitely classics of the genre.

Films are collaborative. Snyder is an average director at best, and brutal at worst. His strength is his reverence-300 is exciting, and Watchmen, for all its flaws, is STILL one of the best in the genre.

But without a particular GN he throws every idea he has. Going back to Tommorowland, this isn't always a good thing-and this problem was from the director of The Iron Giant/The Incredibles.

MOS has a worse RT score than pretty much any MCU film, and it's not because the characters are bad or the plot was hard to follow. It's because it didn't reinvent Superman for a new generation through its own reverence for the character.

Watchmen had the disadvantage of being the ONE graphic novel that pretty much everybody has read, leading to heightened criticism-I doubt the average critic is comparing TDK with The Long Halloween..but the objective consensus is it didn't really capture Alan Moore's spirit, despite rendering almost all the imagery and a lot of the dialog frame by frame.

I'd still say that JEH transcended the genre with Rorschach, but the movie itself is just..pretty good.

But anyway, while you can see the "leaks" in Miller's take of the genre in TDK Returns that would eventually pour into AllStar, so you can see the spectacle-oriented unbalance in Watchmen, despite the film itself being fairly solid.

I want him to succeed in a different way. I want him to have his "SPLIT" comeback, but perhaps he should explore a different adaptation.

God of War
written by Fran Walsh.

If it sucks, it's just a bad video game movie. If it's great..that could be trouble, because I really don't want him going back to the "normal" DC verse.

"THIS.. IS..CRITICISM!"
 
I think whatever Snyder's film trajectory is next, he's not returning to DC even if he was asked back. I'm sure this whole experience has left him scarred permanently and if he does release his director's cut of JL it'll be his final goodbye to the DC characters and just provide some closure.
 
As reluctant as I am to write a defense of Snyder, when it comes to the neck snap scene I will say that when he first proposed the idea, Nolan, as godfather of the whole project, had the power to shut the idea down completely. Despite being initially opposed to the idea, he approved it, and well, I don't need to tell you the rest. The way, I see it is, Snyder originated the idea, but Nolan shouldn't have let it go ahead.

78's Superman wouldn't play today. The 'gosh, golly' Superman wouldn't engage a highly cynical 21st century audience. Synder knew this but he went to far in the opposite direction with his humorless dour rendition.

I watched Superman for the first time in a long while recently, and due to haziness of memory, I was expecting it's version of Superman to be exactly as you described. But upon rewatching it, I realized Reeve's incarnation has a pretty formidable personality. Just watch the scene where he finds out about Luthor's lead box, and you'll see what I'm talking about. While I do wish his character was tested in an actual physical scrap (see: the Spidey-Goblin fight from 2002), I ended up liking his version much more than I had previously.
 
Superman '78 actually isn't totally as cheesy as many may remember it or see it as actually. Upon rewatches, one thing that continually strikes me is how they actually contrast Reeve's wholesome Superman against a very 70's gritty New York City (pretending to be Metropolis). The world Donner created feels very modern, and there's a lot of cynicism and self awareness in it too. I think just like Raimi's Spider-man, that's why it plays so well, because they both successfully place a colorful, wholesome, good boy superhero in a modern, not-so-wholesome environment.
 
I don't agree that making a good Superman movie is all that difficult. Every time that I watch Man of Steel, I gain more respect for it. One of the outstanding parts is the attention given to Krypton and its inhabitants. WB should let Superman explore other worlds in future movies and broaden the scope of DCEU storytelling.
 
For the sake of fairness, I actually thought the first act of MoS was pretty good. The stuff on Krypton whilst derivative was engaging and Clark's struggles as boy was touching. But there were too many things that rubbed me the wrong way.

'I should have let them die?'
'Yeah, maybe.'

Then there was the destruction of Metropolis. Yes, Marvel has just as much destruction but what got under my skin is Superman didn't seem to give a ****.

So the seeds of a good movie is in MoS but the movie loses its way and doesn't find it again. BvS is just a mess start to finish. I love Affleck's rendition of Batman (except the killing) but it's not enough to save the movie. And people can come up with all the explanation in the world to defend 'Martha' but that scene is horrible and all the people involved writing and filming that scene should have been sacked on the spot.
 
My favorite scenes from MOS were the last few. "I'm from Kansas" line to the childhood flashback to his arrival at the DP as Clark Kent.
 
As reluctant as I am to write a defense of Snyder, when it comes to the neck snap scene I will say that when he first proposed the idea, Nolan, as godfather of the whole project, had the power to shut the idea down completely. Despite being initially opposed to the idea, he approved it, and well, I don't need to tell you the rest. The way, I see it is, Snyder originated the idea, but Nolan shouldn't have let it go ahead.



I watched Superman for the first time in a long while recently, and due to haziness of memory, I was expecting it's version of Superman to be exactly as you described. But upon rewatching it, I realized Reeve's incarnation has a pretty formidable personality. Just watch the scene where he finds out about Luthor's lead box, and you'll see what I'm talking about. While I do wish his character was tested in an actual physical scrap (see: the Spidey-Goblin fight from 2002), I ended up liking his version much more than I had previously.

The "gosh golly" behavior in the Reeve version was just an act when he "put on the mask" to play Clark Kent. That's a facade, not who the character really is. He drops it when he's Superman or when he's interacting with people who know the truth.
 
I don't agree that making a good Superman movie is all that difficult. Every time that I watch Man of Steel, I gain more respect for it. One of the outstanding parts is the attention given to Krypton and its inhabitants. WB should let Superman explore other worlds in future movies and broaden the scope of DCEU storytelling.

They have the other space heroes/characters for that.
 
They have the other space heroes/characters for that.

They *should*, but they don't. Superman would be the perfect bridge between the current DCEU and yet unseen intergalactic heroes.
 
The "gosh golly" behavior in the Reeve version was just an act when he "put on the mask" to play Clark Kent. That's a facade, not who the character really is. He drops it when he's Superman or when he's interacting with people who know the truth.

No. Clark is the reality, Superman is the facade (in the reeves movies anyway). Supes violates Lois' free will and erases her memory because he's finally come to the conclusion that Lois loves Superman and not Clark
 
They *should*, but they don't. Superman would be the perfect bridge between the current DCEU and yet unseen intergalactic heroes.
I thought folks were over that. Or is this based off of that Krypton show?
I know he documents other alien things in his fortress, but to make him even more of a central figure of the universe would make the universe feel so limiting.
 
For the sake of fairness, I actually thought the first act of MoS was pretty good. The stuff on Krypton whilst derivative was engaging and Clark's struggles as boy was touching. But there were too many things that rubbed me the wrong way.

'I should have let them die?'
'Yeah, maybe.'

Then there was the destruction of Metropolis. Yes, Marvel has just as much destruction but what got under my skin is Superman didn't seem to give a ****.

So the seeds of a good movie is in MoS but the movie loses its way and doesn't find it again. BvS is just a mess start to finish. I love Affleck's rendition of Batman (except the killing) but it's not enough to save the movie. And people can come up with all the explanation in the world to defend 'Martha' but that scene is horrible and all the people involved writing and filming that scene should have been sacked on the spot.

^ Hey, it's not the gaffer's fault the script was bad :P I know what you mean, though :sly:
 
No. Clark is the reality, Superman is the facade (in the reeves movies anyway). Supes violates Lois' free will and erases her memory because he's finally come to the conclusion that Lois loves Superman and not Clark

In the Reeve movies, Clark is the mask. Notice how he drops that personality when he's trying to be serious with Lois or when he's talking to his mother or Jor-El. That's the real person. The wholesome, innocent, clumsy Clark Kent is only who he pretends to be so people don't find out that he's Superman. A good example is from the first film in the apartment with Lois. He considers telling her the truth and takes off the glasses and begins to act like himself, then backs out, puts the glasses back on and starts pretending again. Another good example is in the second film when Lois finally has proof that he's Superman (or successfully bluffs him in the Donner version). He drops the Clark Kent act right away.

He erases her memory because she's stressing out over Superman's double-life. It is clear that she can't handle it.

Lois Lane said:
I am selfish, when it comes to you. I am selfish. I'm jealous of the whole world ... Don't tell me that I'll meet somebody.
You're kind of a tough act to follow, you know? ... Don't you know that this is killing me? Do you know what it's like to have you come in here every morning and not be able to talk to you? Not be able to show I have any feelings for you? Not be able to tell anyone that I know who you are. I don't even know what to call you. I don't know what to say. I don't know.
 
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I thought folks were over that. Or is this based off of that Krypton show?
I know he documents other alien things in his fortress, but to make him even more of a central figure of the universe would make the universe feel so limiting.

The DCEU has to establish it's intergalactic connections somewhere. We have yet to see the Guardians of the Universe, the Psions, Brainiac, Daxam, the Manhunters, the Source Wall, the Anti-Monitor, etc...or anything substantial to expand the backdrop of the DCEU. It's perfectly logical to assume that the last son of Krypton is a known entity to many of the powerful, ancient forces in the universe. Why not explore that?
 
He erases her memory because she's stressing out over Superman's double-life. It is clear that she can't handle it.

I always thought that he wiped her memory because he realized that he had made a grievous error by choosing a relationship over heroism. Going back to the FoS and regaining his powers was only step one. He still had to hit the reset button with Lois to put his life back into proper order.
 
The DCEU has to establish it's intergalactic connections somewhere. We have yet to see the Guardians of the Universe, the Psions, Brainiac, Daxam, the Manhunters, the Source Wall, the Anti-Monitor, etc...or anything substantial to expand the backdrop of the DCEU. It's perfectly logical to assume that the last son of Krypton is a known entity to many of the powerful, ancient forces in the universe. Why not explore that?
Do the intergalactic guys who are tied to Superman. Keep the rest for the relevant teams, characters, etc. There's no need for him to take the place of a Lantern or Adam Strange.
 
I always thought that he wiped her memory because he realized that he had made a grievous error by choosing a relationship over heroism. Going back to the FoS and regaining his powers was only step one. He still had to hit the reset button with Lois to put his life back into proper order.

He actually doesn't erase her memory at first. He just takes her back to her apartment and leaves. It is only later when Lois is struggling with it that he does it.
 
Do the intergalactic guys who are tied to Superman. Keep the rest for the relevant teams, characters, etc. There's no need for him to take the place of a Lantern or Adam Strange.

That would be a welcomed change from past Superman films. Superman shouldn't be limited solely to earth-based villains and Kryptonians. Why not have him transported to Warworld to fight Mongul or answer a distress call about Imperiex?
 

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