Why is making a good Superman movie so hard?

[Vaibow]

All of the above is great except for one thing: you don't take into account how humanity would respond to someone like Superman or how Clark's life, choices, and personality would be shaped by his relationship with humanity. So you make Superman into simple recipe by eliminating the critical ingredient that adds complexity to the Superman myth. Superman's relationship with humanity, his own humanity, and humanity's relationship to him represents the core conflict of his myth. It is the source of his greatest fears, strengths, and weaknesses. It is foundation of every important theme in the Superman story.

I agree with you, but that's why i left it out, i feel, we as the audience reflect the reaction of humanity. We will be in awe of superman, sympathetic to clark and feel hope for the people he rescues - which i assume would mirror the general consensus of humanity.

If we focus on how humanity reacts, it's way too complex to cover in a movie and for me personally, i feel that's an aspect of Snyder's take i didn't care for.

Also, if Clark shaped his personality and choices based on their reaction, well, i feel we saw that in BvS. I would rather Clark stick to his own principles and focus on being the best person his parents raised him.

Sure, there can be times someone can be be rude to clark the person, say in the office and we see clark - naturally - upset by that, it adds depth as we will know he doesn't deserve it and does so much more.

You are extremely knowledgable on many facets of life, situations etc and i agree with you on many levels, but for a movie, without wanting to 'dumb down' an argument and your answers make great discussion, but i think it just goes back to over thinking the character - keep it simple.

I feel he does what he does, because his parents told him so and he believes in it, which i think is charming and that's what makes him super.

The minute he thinks otherwise - to me is something else

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I think of it like this, As Superman, he is Thor. As Clark, he is Steve Rogers. At the planet, he is Bruce Banner.

To me, it's more like...

As Superman/Clark in front of people he knows, he's a Sam Wilson. He's just a guy who ended up becoming a superhero.

As Superman, to the public, he's sometimes a bit Steve Rogers, leaning into that old-fashioned persona.

As Clark at the Daily Planet, after the world discovered Superman, he's Bruce Banner, the nerd.

 

[Vaibow]

To me, it's more like...

As Superman/Clark in front of people he knows, he's a Sam Wilson. He's just a guy who ended up becoming a superhero.

As Superman, to the public, he's sometimes a bit Steve Rogers, leaning into that old-fashioned persona.

As Clark at the Daily Planet, after the world discovered Superman, he's Bruce Banner, the nerd.

I hear ya, but i honestly feel he was raised like Steve rogers, a lil old fashioned - due to his adoptive parents. Also, his dna is alien, hemut have some traits that are indifferent, overly optimistic, perhaps empathy is a strong component to the El's. And respectfully i feel he isn't just a guy... he is a young man that was made aware he is an alien, so you have to add that to equation - so on one hand i agree, he presents as just a guy, but more so to fit in, he must have a slight sense of being an outsider, esp when wearing glasses and keeping a low profile - Superman he is himself, but in front of the public, he puts on this leadership quality and can afford himself some fun - just to give the suit character.

This is why i feel trying to modernize superman, won't work, as i feel inherently he is an old fashioned character in comparison to the majority of blokes his age, around him, in the city, chivalry is his thing, sure, a lot off guys still do and a lot of women don't like it or want it, but that's the way it is and a lot of people respect that and look up to it.

Also, the daily planet, i would love it to have a tv studio and offer something like E or another celeb gossip channel - Cat Grant could really shine as a character.

And i really want the super powered villains to cool it, not totally stop them, but let's have a villain or a situation where Clark has to negotiate his mind and think, rather than just throw a punch?

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I hear ya, but i honestly feel he was raised like Steve rogers, a lil old fashioned - due to his adoptive parents.

I don't think being raised right needs to be equated with being old-fashioned though.

 

[Doug_Moore]

Because they keep hiring pretty boys who can't act to portray him.

 

[Herofan]

Yep. You certainly can’t write compelling or good stories for godlike superheroes, who can shrug off having a mountain thrown at them, or are so strong that very little can threaten them.

Thor 2 usually is considered one of Marvel's weakest, in part from both the villain and love interest being generic, and the first film wasn't particularly liked as well (though antagonist/ally Loki was often thought to be entertaining and well-done).

 

[Herofan]

What is Clark's favorite past time? Does he prefer living in the city, or is he a country boy at heart?

Hmm, that's something most writers are particularly reluctant to address.

Why did Clark decide to be a journalist? Does he even like the profession? What does he like most?

Presumably he is a lot like Lois and the journalist ideal generally, wanting to protect the weak and expose the corrupt.

What is Clark's biggest fear?

The more noble version is that someone will target Lois or his parents, a slightly more selfish one is that there are things, Kryptonite or some possible unknown material, that can be used to hurt him and kill him (I liked that that was the case in Smallville) or maybe that he usually doesn't reveal his secret identity because he fears his friends would with the knowledge betray him.

 

[Vaibow]

I don't think being raised right needs to be equated with being old-fashioned though.

I agree, but we can argue and this is what i meant, a lot of kids today aren't raised 'properly' which is subjective and miss so many key elements. So as society loses these elements, they are seen as normal, then elements of yesteryear are seen as old fashioned and as the way Clark was raised, culturally, it does smell of old fashioned.... to me I see it as this, the term old fashioned is loosely used for someone that doesn't really conform, follow current trends and fashions, someone with manners isn't old fashioned, but certain values, holds up values that were dear to our grandparents as example would be - also, the words and phrases they use. Todays kids and young adults, hipsters, millenials etc, the media pushes it to be 'progressive' to be unique, independent etc etc and there are obvious trends, i think someone that holds doors open still, never interrupts a lady, has a rural aspect to them, in comparison to the city and urban life, its easy to describe them as old fashioned. Instead of text, they call. A lady that can bake, knit and all the rest of it, to some people thats normal, to others, old fashioned. Anyways - interesting topic.

Clark in every interpretation has a hint of old fashioned - we can agree on that.

 

[fan4stic]

The issue to me is that MOS/BvS spends more time focused on the idea of Superman than him as a person. Because even though he's an alien...

He's just a guy. Yeah, we can have that scene where he jumps in the bathtub with Lois, but that scene, to me, feels tonally out of place with the conversation they were having and their relationship doesn't have much meaning to me. Clark's character is wrapped up in the pointless meaning of Superman, when he's just a guy. And I think it doesn't realistically portray what that would mean anyway.

 

[Vaibow]

Spot on, i felt it was like Clark acting awkwardly and any other woman in that moment would be like - 'wtf, seriously.... this floor is oak and the tenants downstairs will kick off, my deposit is $1000 clark, seriously....' lol

Also, i feel with snyder, these scenes are skipped over and need more substance to flesh them out. In MOS, the bar scene, that was crying out to show us what clark is like same goes for the boat/trawler scene - could have been Jaw like, sharing stories and scars, Clark could have given us a story that we could sympathize with.

 

[Silver Lantern]

The reason is because they make the same villains and lame stories and when they try to do something new they get the worse director for it. Since first movie they used zod twice and lex in every movie except one. They don't use villains like parasite, braniac, bizarro, etc. They don't think outside the box and superman has been done to death in films when there are any dc characters for films like booster, blue beetle, etc.

 

[The Guard]

The issue to me is that MOS/BvS spends more time focused on the idea of Superman than him as a person. Because even though he's an alien...

He's just a guy. Yeah, we can have that scene where he jumps in the bathtub with Lois, but that scene, to me, feels tonally out of place with the conversation they were having and their relationship doesn't have much meaning to me. Clark's character is wrapped up in the pointless meaning of Superman, when he's just a guy. And I think it doesn't realistically portray what that would mean anyway.

He's not just a guy, though, he's a guy with immense powers and the potential to alter human history. And yes, he has problems like anyone. The difference is, the scale of his problems are global.

Presenting Superman's key conflicts is not the issue with the Superman films. The issue is that they haven't presented his more optimistic, hopeful side fully in comparison.

 

[Dark Raven]

The issue to me is that MOS/BvS spends more time focused on the idea of Superman than him as a person. Because even though he's an alien...

He's just a guy. Yeah, we can have that scene where he jumps in the bathtub with Lois, but that scene, to me, feels tonally out of place with the conversation they were having and their relationship doesn't have much meaning to me. Clark's character is wrapped up in the pointless meaning of Superman, when he's just a guy. And I think it doesn't realistically portray what that would mean anyway.

If Clark jumped a little too hard into that bathtub, it would've crashed through the floor and into the room below, like Iron Man falling on his grand piano and then crashing further through the floors in Iron Man 1.

 

[fan4stic]

He's not just a guy, though, he's a guy with immense powers and the potential to alter human history. And yes, he has problems like anyone. The difference is, the scale of his problems are global.

Presenting Superman's key conflicts is not the issue with the Superman films. The issue is that they haven't presented his more optimistic, hopeful side fully in comparison.

I'll use a quote from Smallville to explore these ideas.

JONATHAN: Clark, I think you'd be surprised how many feel the same way.

JONATHAN: It's not that everyone doesn't have secrets, it's just that yours is a little bigger than most.

I think the issue is that the movie doesn't explore his conflicts in regards to him as a person, more the idea of him. JLU TAS has a not so optimistic Clark, but I enjoyed that. I think it's explored more in him as a person.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

I think DCEU's problem is that nothing feels considered about the world-building they're doing.

THOR/THOR2/THOR:RAG all have differing versions of Thor but the world he inhabits is visually the same. The Shakespearean narrative may have dropped but the conflicts and inhabitants ground us as they attempt to find a right interpretation of Thor.

MOS to BatvSups has Gotham literally appear as across a bridge to Metropolis and Batman has been in operation for years with no mention or appearance cross a fricking river!!!


I've said my peace about how ill-considered Superman's interpretation was in MOS but it's a system of the larger problem.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Presenting Superman's key conflicts is not the issue with the Superman films. The issue is that they haven't presented his more optimistic, hopeful side fully in comparison.

That's the problem. Snyder wanted to make a movie where he shows Superman man earning that by putting him through the ringer, but the "fans' want to skip character development and go right to the end.

 

[fan4stic]

Fans wanted it done well and some didn't think it was and think that his character wasn't fleshed out enough to do that. I think too that some may feel it takes too long.

 

[unholyrevenger]

Fans wanted it done well and some didn't think it was and think that his character wasn't fleshed out enough to do that. I think too that some may feel it takes too long.

Fans wanting it done well but knowing it wasn't gets you Thor 2 the Dark World Ratings. When the fans believe you have no understanding of the character but really it's that fans don't understand that even Superman has character development you get BvS ratings

think of it like this Superman The Movie and Superman the Animated Series just skip over the growing pains of learning to be Superman and fans generally like those things. Smallville and MoS/BvS do show those growing pains and fans are of the opinion "**** this ****"

 

[fan4stic]

I don't rate TDW that far from BvS

I think Smallville mostly did it solidly, while I think MOS/BvS didn't. I think JLU TAS handled the character's struggle better

 

[Boy Scout]

It’s always odd to me when people call Superman “old fashioned” or “outdated.” Do some of you really not know any decent adults with a strong moral code? Because that’s Superman in a nutshell, and there’s nothing unbelievable about it.

 

[The Guard]

I'll use a quote from Smallville to explore these ideas.

JONATHAN: Clark, I think you'd be surprised how many feel the same way.

JONATHAN: It's not that everyone doesn't have secrets, it's just that yours is a little bigger than most.

I think the issue is that the movie doesn't explore his conflicts in regards to him as a person, more the idea of him. JLU TAS has a not so optimistic Clark, but I enjoyed that. I think it's explored more in him as a person.

That's just not accurate. The movies very much explore his conflicts and the burden they place on Clark's life, which is what affects him as a person. It's more or less the only thing we learn about Clark as a person; his conflicts and how he deals with them, and how they affect him, and then in a broader sense, those around him and the world.

But two of the films revolve around him basically questioning his reason for existing, and coming to terms with what his powers mean, not just to the world, but to him. Where the movies are incomplete is showing the side of Clark that embraces his powers and his duty as a result; he is portrayed as an incomplete person or character, at least as far as many fans are concerned.

 

[fan4stic]

That's just not accurate. The movies very much explore his conflicts and the burden they place on Clark's life, which is what affects him as a person. It's more or less the only thing we learn about Clark as a person; his conflicts and how he deals with them, and how they affect him, and then in a broader sense, those around him and the world.

But two of the films revolve around him basically questioning his reason for existing, and coming to terms with what his powers mean, not just to the world, but to him. Where the movies are incomplete is showing the side of Clark that embraces his powers and his duty as a result; he is portrayed as an incomplete person or character, at least as far as many fans are concerned.

I think the idea of it is there, but isn't developed with his feelings as a person. We know the idea that he's sad, but the movie to me doesn't develop his emotions or him as a person to me with it.

 

[Abudefduf]

It's only hard if you're a clueless director with a name that starts with "S" and ends with "R" and who doesn't even like the character.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think the idea of it is there, but isn't developed with his feelings as a person. We know the idea that he's sad, but the movie to me doesn't develop his emotions or him as a person to me with it.

That's because these movies were designed around set pieces recreating iconic moments from the comics that were reverse-engineered into 3 hour stories by a team who cares about actions and explosions above all else. As such, the characters and the development they undergo do not feel earned or impactful. Even if they included the "hopeful, smiling, optimistic" Superman it would fall flat. Characters are just there to hit the right beats and say the lines as needed to move the story towards the fireworks. That is not the recipe for a healthy franchise.

 

[misslane38]

It's only hard if you're a clueless director with a name that starts with "S" and ends with "R" and who doesn't even like the character.

How do we know Snyder doesn't like Superman? Before MoS came out, for example, he said:

It’s a more serious version of Superman. It’s not like a heart attack. We took the mythology seriously. We take him as a character seriously. I believe the movie would appeal to anyone. I think that you’re going to see a Superman you’ve never seen before. We approached it as though no other films had been made. He’s the king-daddy. Honestly that’s why I wanted to do it. I’m interested in Superman because he’s the father of all superheroes. He’s this amazing ambassador for all superheroes. What was it about him that cracked the code that made pop culture embrace this other mythology? What we‘ve made as a film not only examines that but is also an amazing adventure story. It’s been an honor to work on. As a comic book fan, Superman is like the Rosetta Stone of all superheroes. I wanted to be sure the movie treated it respectfully.

Snyder also said:

In every aspect of design and of story, the whole thing is very much from that perspective of ‘Respect the canon but don’t be a slave to the movies.'

I'm not seeing any disdain or hatred for Superman in the above comments. Can you share any comments you have come across that gave you the impression Snyder doesn't like Superman?