Wolfman-The Offical Thread

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What do you mean it never moved or showed any kind of reaction? I understand it was more of a latex mask(a damn good detailed one at that) and could have had a few sections that would move or adjust more with Del Toro's face and reactions but I don't think it "never" showed any reaction.

Most if not all of the werewolves in the Underworld films were CGI creations.

Can you explain why you thought the movie was pointless? I'm just curious because you can pretty much say that about most films. The film did what it set out to do, it told the story of a man cursed with lycanthropy. People also seem to forget that this is a remake and as a remake should follow the original fairly close while adding in new elements. As far as new elements I liked that Lawrence had a trouble past as well as the whole asylum sequence.

I understand that a lot of people were underwhelmed by the film but I don't think it deserves the majority of hate it's recieving. If you hated it that's fine but I still don't think the costume and make-up effects were terrible.

they were extraordinary. we just have the misfortune of living in a world where some people thing cgi is cool just because it's cgi, and some find the idea of a more human-looking bipedal werewolf with shredded clothes on cheesey. unfortunately, these people lack the class or language skills to say "it's not my cup of tea" and just call it bad.
 
and there is also a group of people who hate CGI because its CGI.

watching some footage i think it was the right decision to use a mask.
 
Some of the CGI was good, but it was just too jarring to see in a film like this.
Then I remembered this movie was obviously not made with classic horror film fans in mind, but the now common ADD riddled modern audiences of today instead.

I'm not upset or anything, just disappointed. They had the ingredients to make something really special, but the result was such a mediocre product.
 
they were extraordinary. we just have the misfortune of living in a world where some people thing cgi is cool just because it's cgi, and some find the idea of a more human-looking bipedal werewolf with shredded clothes on cheesey. unfortunately, these people lack the class or language skills to say "it's not my cup of tea" and just call it bad.
You seem to think that if people didn't care for the make-up in Wolfman that they then must love CGI, which I don't think is true. It is possible to have not enjoyed Rick Baker's effects and not share a unrequited love for computer generated imagery.

I personally enjoy practical effects more than computer generated one usually across the board, but the make-up and prosthesis in this film did less than nothing for me; in my opinion it looked lees like a wolfman, and more like a hairyman. There didn't seem to be anything lycanthropic about him aside from the standard hair, teeth, and claw changes that most people go to when attempting such a look. Now if he had been billed as some kind of wild ape-man, I probably could have bought into that design a little more.
 
블라스;18071828 said:
Some of the CGI was good, but it was just too jarring to see in a film like this.
Then I remembered this movie was obviously not made with classic horror film fans in mind, but the now common ADD riddled modern audiences of today instead.

I'm not upset or anything, just disappointed. They had the ingredients to make something really special, but the result was such a mediocre product.

I honestly can't think of a movie in recent times that had classic horror fans more in mind than this film.
 
You seem to think that if people didn't care for the make-up in Wolfman that they then must love CGI, which I don't think is true. It is possible to have not enjoyed Rick Baker's effects and not share a unrequited love for computer generated imagery.

I personally enjoy practical effects more than computer generated one usually across the board, but the make-up and prosthesis in this film did less than nothing for me; in my opinion it looked lees like a wolfman, and more like a hairyman. There didn't seem to be anything lycanthropic about him aside from the standard hair, teeth, and claw changes that most people go to when attempting such a look. Now if he had been billed as some kind of wild ape-man, I probably could have bought into that design a little more.

He was billed as some kind of Wolfman not a werewolf. People are forgetting or just don't care that this was a remake of the classic Universal film. Why would they deviate the look from the original so much for the remake? They want him to still be recognizable and reminiscent of the Lon Chaney Jr. version. If they were to alter him immensely and make him look like a typical werewolf/lyncanthrope then it shouldn't have been called The Wolfman and should have just been it's own thing.

From arguing with you a number of pages back on this very topic, I know that you realize this but for some reason you're ignoring these points. What you want in terms of look would be better used for any other run of the mill werewolf film but for this particular film(remake) it would have been a disappointment to fans of the original like myself.

Hey, at least in a number of scenes they had him running on all fours. :woot:

I honestly can't think of a movie in recent times that had classic horror fans more in mind than this film.

Agreed. There were so many nods to the original. During his first transformation it cuts to the palm of his hand. My gf and I weren't 100% sure but we think he had the mark of the pentagram on it like the original. When I watch it again on Blu-Ray in the future, I'm going to pause it see if it really was the pentagram. Although they didn't go into the pentagram being the mark of the werewolf it would still be a cool nod for fans of the original.

As for the film being taylored for the ADD generation, blame that on the studio wanting Johnston to cut his film down. I can't wait to see the extended cut, hopefully it will expand on the character development and help the pacing.
 
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I agree. Walker's script may have been more nuanced than the finished product (though the alligator fight sounded beyond stupid, thank God that got axed). But his idea of werewolf fights, though in Werewolf of London, just didn't work here.

With that said, not that I'm trying to defend this movie too much, but I think I can explain the Abberline bit as it really does make sense to me. For better or worse, the relationship between Lawrence and Sir John in this movie is very Freudian. It is no secret there is a lot of Oedipus to it. That is why they work in Lawrence playing Hamlet, as that has often been read as an Oedipal tale (and apparently in the original draft the "To Be or Not to Be" speech about suicide played a major role for Lawrence that got trimmed).

Well Lawrence, as the forgotten and thrown away son, can now prove himself to his father in literally the only way his father would understand...savage brutality. But he is not fighting for the Freudian explanation to be with his mother, as his mother is dead. However, Gwen has become the surrogate mother to the Talbot family in a lot of ways. It is made very clear that she greatly resembles the wife Sir John lost and the mother Lawrence never really knew. So all three Talbots (including the brother) are drawn to her because their ids, which the werewolves are an expression of, see her as a sexualized maternal figure.

I don't think I'm reaching in using that as an explanation as to why the Wolfman decided to go after Gwen while he could. The reason that Sir John got drunk and subsequently was unable to chain up his wolf-self was because he was subconsciously jealous of his son for marrying and taking away the "mother" figure. So, as a werewolf his id lashed out and murdered his son. After Lawrence has proven his dominance by killing the father (very Oedipus), they show the picture of his mother on the wall. When he chases Gwen through the woods, Johnston goes out of his way to cut back to the portrait of Lawrence's mother on the wall. Lawrence has defeated his father and is now going after his "mother" to slate his psychological id. Even when he takes her, he leans into her in a ravishing position and his attack is far more sexualized in visuals than when he kills anybody else in the movie.



Look, I don't like the Oedipal angle. But in all honesty I think if you read it (as I think Johnston wants you to) like that, then him making her a higher priority to ravish than killing Abberline (who was protecting himself) makes sense. Now where the crap did Gwen's horse go when she ran out of the house? That's the real question.

I don't think you're reaching either. I think all of what you said is there, albeit poorly executed. The difference is that I enjoyed it. What I enjoy about it is that it, along with other changes in story, allows this film to work on it's own. We (atleast I) can criticize this film for it's short comings as it's own entity and NOT as a remake. Like Cronenberg's The Fly and Carpenter's The Thing, Johnston's The Wolfman differs enough from the original film to stand on it's own. I can't view this film as a remake of the 1941 film because with the exception of character names and that one important circumstance, the film bears no resemblance to the original. The best way to describe it is that this film has enough similarities, regardless of how small they may be, to get the nostalgia in us going, but takes us on a whole new, unfamiliar ride.

Had the Oedipal factors really been played up, and had that werewolf battle been intense and suspenseful and even emotional and NOT looked like a cheesy wrestling match, I think this film could have been damn amazing.


My problem with Abberline though still remains. Lawrence goes to the trouble of taking Abberline down: either have Lawrence rip Aberline's throat out or have Lawrence throw him into a wall. The twist felt very forced, despite the Oedipal explanation and to me, opens a whole new can of ideas for sequels that I really don't want. Lawrence Talbot is The Wolfman. No one else.
 
He was billed as some kind of Wolfman not a werewolf. People are forgetting or just don't care that this was a remake of the classic Universal film. Why would they deviate the look from the original so much for the remake? They want him to still be recognizable and reminiscent of the Lon Chaney Jr. version. If they were to alter him immensely and make him look like a typical werewolf/lyncanthrope then it shouldn't have been called The Wolfman and should have just been it's own thing.

From arguing with you a number of pages back on this very topic, I know that you realize this but for some reason you're ignoring these points. What you want in terms of look would be better used for any other run of the mill werewolf film but for this particular film(remake) it would have been a disappointment to fans of the original like myself.
Are you suggesting they attempted to differentiate between a werewolf and their wolfman, despite having mythos similarities on pretty much every other aspect of the character?

Hey, at least in a number of scenes they had him running on all fours. :woot:
Which looked markedly ape-ish. :o
 
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That's kool & the gang, guys, if you think that.
It's hard for me to settle with something that I consider so mediocre, but that's my problem.
I don't think those 17 minutes will help, and even if they do...we still have the completely unnecessary CGI werewolf cagematch and that
stupid, stupid setup for a sequel
.

But again, that's just me.
 
블라스;18071978 said:
e still have the completely unnecessary CGI werewolf cagematch

I noticed very little CGI in that fight. It mainly (and mostly, as far as I could tell) consisted of crappy wire-work, which to an extent, is fine as it's two real wolfman beating each other up. But it looked so staged, which is what is silly about it.
 
Damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to f/x work. Either it's too shoddy because it's pratical or CG, or vice versa. Basically, every fictional character that doesn't look human more or less just needs to be a combo of practical and CG, so ****ers can't tell the difference.
 
Are you suggesting they attempted to differentiate between a werewolf and their wolfman, despite having mythos similarities on pretty much every other aspect of the character?

I simply stated that they wanted to keep the look from the original film and not use your typical looking werewolf whether it be a quadruped(American Werewolf in London) or bipedal like in Dog Soldiers. So yes, they may have kept up with the typical lore like him changing during the full moon and silver bullets being the only thing that can kill him but so did the Lon Chaney Jr. version. If this film wasn't a remake and the original never existed I might be able to see your points as justifiable. This is a remake though and they obviously wanted to stick fairly close to the original.

Correct me if I'm wrong and misreading what you typed but doesn't "differentiate between a werewolf and their wolfman" indicate they also wanted to differentiate from the original look as well?

Which looked markedly ape-ish. :o

What do you expect when he's primarily a bipedal.

블라스;18071978 said:
That's kool & the gang, guys, if you think that.
It's hard for me to settle with something that I consider so mediocre, but that's my problem.
I don't think those 17 minutes will help, and even if they do...we still have the completely unnecessary CGI werewolf cagematch and that
stupid, stupid setup for a sequel
.

But again, that's just me.

I agree on the werewolf fight. It was entertaining but godawful at the same time. I also think it's unnecessary to make a sequel and as CrimsonMist said, Lawrence Talbot should be the only Wolfman.
 
I saw it and enjoyed it for what it was...a Wolfman movie. It has its problems, but honestly, it could've been SO much worse. I was actually pleasantly surprised. It'll be a great one to watch on Halloween.
 
Damned if you do and damned if you don't when it comes to f/x work. Either it's too shoddy because it's pratical or CG, or vice versa. Basically, every fictional character that doesn't look human more or less just needs to be a combo of practical and CG, so ****ers can't tell the difference.

I like your posts, it seems like you know a bit about movies, but I don't think it's that simple in this case.

For me, one of the (many) problems this movie has, is the soulless feel the whole thing had, CGI or not.
Is the thing from JC's The Thing completely realistic? Or the werewolf from AAWIL? Hell, even the Brundlefly looked a bit mechanical at times. But I bought them 100% because of the atmosphere, the "feeling" of a particular scene.

And it's the lack of those qualities that made me look at my watch so much while I was watching The Werewolf.
 
yes i thought the make-up and design looked terrible and unconvincing...
i dont care who made it and why... in the film it looked amateurish and took me out of the moment.

it was just a solid mask over his face that never moved or showed any kind of reaction...

...and least the heads in the underworld movies were animatronic... and moved.

to each his own, but even with cool make-up/costume this movie would still be as mediocre and pointless as it was.

To each their own. But honestly you seem to prefer CGI over prosthetics. And in the case of werewolves, it just doesn't need to be done. The scariest werewolves on film imo are from An American Werewolf in London and the first Howling movie.

But I do love the retro look of Baker's work here. For the record it was not a mask. The hair may have been matted around and under the head and there may have been something around the mouth, but the rest of his face and his eyes had complete mobility. It was done not only as an homage to the awesome werewolf of the original, but also to allow Del Toro to use his expressions. In short it was make-up more than "a mask."

As for Underworld. Eh. Those looked far more fake than the Wolfman. I actually really enjoy the look of the Lycans in the first two films (but the lower budget of UW3 was apparent whenever they were on screen). But at the end of the day, they were clearly guys in suits and not as good as two of the werewolf movies of 1981 and not as good as the Wolfman look. Whether he looked "like a bad Halloween costume" or not. He had mobility. The werewolves of Underworld have always been immobile props when CGI isn't used.



As for the rest of the movie. I agree it borders on mediocre. Though there are enough things to like in it for me (cinematography, attack scenes, make-up, cast and asylum sequence) I'll bump it up to "just okay." Agree to disagree, I suppose though.
 
You seem to think that if people didn't care for the make-up in Wolfman that they then must love CGI, which I don't think is true. It is possible to have not enjoyed Rick Baker's effects and not share a unrequited love for computer generated imagery.

I personally enjoy practical effects more than computer generated one usually across the board, but the make-up and prosthesis in this film did less than nothing for me; in my opinion it looked lees like a wolfman, and more like a hairyman. There didn't seem to be anything lycanthropic about him aside from the standard hair, teeth, and claw changes that most people go to when attempting such a look. Now if he had been billed as some kind of wild ape-man, I probably could have bought into that design a little more.

Let's keep it chill. I think you've made your point. I am a huge fan of the original (which I think is very important in how people react to this design), so to me this is one of the coolest looking werewolves ever. But I respect your view, no need to stoke the fires, if you know what I mean.
 
You seem to think that if people didn't care for the make-up in Wolfman that they then must love CGI, which I don't think is true. It is possible to have not enjoyed Rick Baker's effects and not share a unrequited love for computer generated imagery.

I personally enjoy practical effects more than computer generated one usually across the board, but the make-up and prosthesis in this film did less than nothing for me; in my opinion it looked lees like a wolfman, and more like a hairyman. There didn't seem to be anything lycanthropic about him aside from the standard hair, teeth, and claw changes that most people go to when attempting such a look. Now if he had been billed as some kind of wild ape-man, I probably could have bought into that design a little more.

but you see, you are failing to recognize the make up for what it is. there is a lot going on; a complete transformation of del toro's face without losing the performance. it's quite brilliant. there's even a subtle snout going on that doesn't hinder the actor's mouth movements.

you'll also notice that my initial post wasn't just about cgi, but also taking into account people who's tastes do not jive with a wolfman design. and like i said, if it's not your cup of tea, that's totally fine. but to call amazing work poor because it doesn't suit your taste is crap.
 
I don't think you're reaching either. I think all of what you said is there, albeit poorly executed. The difference is that I enjoyed it. What I enjoy about it is that it, along with other changes in story, allows this film to work on it's own. We (atleast I) can criticize this film for it's short comings as it's own entity and NOT as a remake. Like Cronenberg's The Fly and Carpenter's The Thing, Johnston's The Wolfman differs enough from the original film to stand on it's own. I can't view this film as a remake of the 1941 film because with the exception of character names and that one important circumstance, the film bears no resemblance to the original. The best way to describe it is that this film has enough similarities, regardless of how small they may be, to get the nostalgia in us going, but takes us on a whole new, unfamiliar ride.

Had the Oedipal factors really been played up, and had that werewolf battle been intense and suspenseful and even emotional and NOT looked like a cheesy wrestling match, I think this film could have been damn amazing.


My problem with Abberline though still remains. Lawrence goes to the trouble of taking Abberline down: either have Lawrence rip Aberline's throat out or have Lawrence throw him into a wall. The twist felt very forced, despite the Oedipal explanation and to me, opens a whole new can of ideas for sequels that I really don't want. Lawrence Talbot is The Wolfman. No one else.

Yeah I actually agree that if they're going to change the story so much, this wasn't the worst way to go. I just think the movie would have been much better if this new cooky-version of Sir John had a few more enigmatic scenes with Lawrence and at the end was the one who saved Gwen by killing Lawrence and wandering off into the night. Given how they depicted him taking his wife's death, it would have served the film well.

But going Oedipal could have worked in its own way. Actually, if they are making it father vs. son, the implementation of Gwen as the replacement for the mother in the Talbot family psychosis really is kind of nice. It explains why Sir John deteriorated at this point very well and made the ending where after he kills Sir John more bearable. I actually liked the cuts between him chasing Gwen and the portrait of his mother burning on the wall. It also explains why he let Alberline live for me very well. He took a chunk out of him, like pappa werewolf did to Lawrence at the beginning. I'm sure if he had more time he would have killed him. But like when Lawrence survived because of the hunters shooting at the werewolf, he got distracted by his psychosis.

I wish they had played that angle more up as well. I don't feel this bastardizes the original, so much as reimagines it. The iconography we all love is there, but like Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow, it does its own thing while paying tribute to fans of the original work.


...I still just can't get behind Sir John being a werewolf. The fight actually didn't bother me in terms of look. If you have two Wolfmen (in the Pierce/Baker style) fighting, it would probably look like this. It also was short because the more satisfying climax (classic monster chases girl through woods) was t come. It is just the concept of Sir John turning into a werewolf and fighting to the death with his son I still can't get over without mentally cringing.
 
Huh. Given the MTV-style edit Universal did, this could work with the transformation scenes. ;)

Y'know I actually liked it. This would be awesome in a hardcore werewolf movie set today. Like I know a remake of American Werewolf in London comes out next year (ugh)...well maybe not for that (it needs more "Blue Moon" covers). But if they ever made another werewolf movie that was mainstream and a hard-R, this would work.

But not for Wolfman. Cropped or not, this would not work. Even at 95 minutes, the pace is too slow for something like this (other than maybe the first transformation sequence and killing the hunters immediately afterwards) and the period piece aesthetic needed a traditional score. Elfman's was generic--the only things that stood out was he occasionally swapped a motif from Bram Stoker's Dracula and the little gypsy or eastern European kick he'd add at certain moments--but it worked.
 
Elfman's score wasn't anything special. In fact, forgettable. The only thing I remember is that the score bombarded almost every scene. There were scenes where it didn't need music at all. I think the use of music seemed to rush the movie too. The music felt like they were ahead of the scenes.
 
I think a person can like this version of The Wolfman while acknowledging the film's faults. They can say it's fun in a B-movie, sit at home in the afternoon kind of way. Nothing more than that.

But it does boogles my mind when people who like the film and asks the question: "I don't get the hate" or say "Saw ruined the attention span of the modern day audience THUS people are too stupid to like The Wolfman." I disagree what the latter; yes, Saw sucks but I think Wolfman just doesn't completely work as a movie and for different reasons than the faults of the Saw series.

I mean, I can't see how anyone can be so ignorant to not notice of the weird stuff that went on in the movie's (tone, editing, etc). The movie's all of the map. I'm not forcing anyone to dislike it or like it, but I kinda figure that some people have invested so much time and energy to be hyped on a film like this, that they can't fall back. It's the process of geek denial.

It brings to me that many people don't want The Wolfman to fail as a movie. In fact, there are some great stuff here but there's also some jarring elements (no character development, weird acting) that conflicts with the good, thus making it neutral for me. In other words, it makes it mediocre and with a movie like this, there was so much promise.

I don't know..I give it a C. It's not like it's 'OMG it's so bad'. It's more like "OMG..it could have been much better!"
 
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