Comics X-Men: Last Man Standing (Round 3)

[FieryBalrog]

Oh! Look at that pic, Ororo has better jugs than Jean too

LOL

 

[Intheknow101]

And just to enlighten you all about The Phoenix Force...

Powers
The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life, derived from the psyches of all living beings. In its natural state, this life-cycle is enough to sustain the Force. However, in order to manifest itself on the physical plane, the Force must tap into the near limitless source of energy provided by life-force reserved for future generations, thus denying them existence. The Force can wield this energy to project beams of immense concussive force, as well as transmigrate throughout time and space by folding its energy back into itself, causing it to collapse akin to a black hole, then it reforms itself upon reaching its destination, like the Phoenix of Earth legend.
While possessing a human host, the Force is able to augment any super-powers they have to vastly higher levels.

Born of the void between states of being, the Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. In the dying moments of the previous universe, the Force saved all existence from eternal damnation, enabling Eternity to preserve the humanoid Galan, ensuring his re-creation as Galactus. The Force was subsequently reborn from the cosmic fires of the “Big Bang.” Later, it encountered the malevolent Le Bete Noir and trapped it in the center of a still-cooling planet Earth. The Force was drawn back to Earth when it was awakened to reality by Feron, a sorcerer from an alternate Earth who had traveled with his master Necrom to a tower on Earth-616 to witness an alignment of dimensional interfaces. The Force joined with Feron, allowing itself to be shaped by his dreams into the form of a giant fiery bird and experiencing a spectrum of new sensations. At the moment of the alignment, Feron bade the Force to project the essence of the tower throughout the multiverse, so that it existed on every plane of reality simultaneously, creating an energy matrix. Necrom sought to access the matrix to allow him to compress all alternate Earths into a singularity, the energy released from which would endow him with godlike power, and to that end he tore out the portion of the Force that had bonded to Feron. In agonized confusion over the violation of its essence, the Force fled. Necrom bound the stolen Force with a portion of his own essence, and left it to incubate in a corpse he dubbed the Anti-Phoenix.

In time, the Force’s pain subsided and it discovered that it was unable to return to its natural state. Hundreds of years later, the Force learned that the universe would come under threat from manipulation of the M‘kraan Crystal - a hypercubical nexus of realities - by the mad Shi’ar Emperor D’Ken. To prevent this, the Force sought an avatar through which it could act and so returned to Earth, seeking out Feron. Instead, the Force encountered Jean Grey, a member of the heroic mutant X-Men team, whose mind the Force had touched earlier. Grey was dying from the effects of solar radiation while piloting a damaged space shuttle. The Force appeared to Grey and offered to save her. She accepted, and so the Force created an exact duplicate of her body for itself, into which it transferred a portion of her consciousness. The Force then sealed her comatose body inside a healing cocoon, and after the shuttle crashed into Jamaica Bay, near New York City, the Force emerged from the waters, calling itself Phoenix. The X-Men believed it to be the real Jean Grey, having died and returned to life with vast new powers. Phoenix and the X-Men opposed D’Ken, who exposed the universe to the tremendous gravitational forces contained within the Crystal’s core. Phoenix entered the Crystal and repaired the stasis field, thus saving the cosmos. Phoenix continued to serve as a member of the X-Men, but ultimately its human form was unable to cope with the Force’s immense power. At first, Grey’s strong moral sense kept the Force in check, but Phoenix succumbed to the psionic manipulation of Jason Wyngarde (Mastermind). Unable to fully free itself of the sinister side of its personality that Wyngarde exposed it to, and with its human consciousness ill-equipped to repress it, the Force’s primal urges overwhelmed Phoenix, causing it to become the malevolent Dark Phoenix. Due to the limitations of its physical form, Dark Phoenix hungered for more energy and transported itself to the star D’Bari, absorbing all the energy from it. As a result, the star turned supernova, annihilating one of its planets. Dark Phoenix destroyed a Shi’ar starship which had attacked it in retaliation for the D’Bari’s deaths, then returned to Earth where it was opposed by the X-Men and Professor Xavier. He reinforced Grey’s personality, allowing Phoenix to reject its cosmic power.

The Shi’ar still judged it necessary to obliterate Phoenix’s powers entirely, lest it become Dark Phoenix again. The X-Men fought the ruling in a trial by combat against members of the Shi’ar’s Imperial Guard in the Blue Area of Earth’s moon, but during the battle Phoenix reverted to Dark Phoenix. Realizing that it could never fully retain control, Phoenix acted as the real Grey would have. Before the eyes of a horrified Cyclops, it committed suicide by telekinetically triggering an energy cannon, disintegrating its mortal shell. Later reflecting on its folly, the Force sought to undo the damage it had done by returning the life-force it had taken from Grey. On its return to Earth, it sensed the astral form of the time-traveling Rachel Summers, the daughter of Earth-811's Jean Grey. After returning Grey’s missing life-force, which was instead received by Grey’s clone Madelyne Pryor, the Force followed Rachel back to the future of Earth-811. There, it revealed itself to Kate Pryde, who asked the Force to give Rachel a new lease on life. The Force agreed and took Rachel as its host, supercharging her ability to time travel and causing her to physically travel back in time to Earth-616. Rachel was unaware that she hosted the Force’s essence until she took on the codename Phoenix. The Force then bonded to her fully and ensured that Rachel could only access as much power as she could safely wield, having learned from its past mistake. Adventuring with Rachel and the British super-team Excalibur for a time, the Force ultimately encountered Necrom’s Anti-Phoenix. After a cataclysmic battle, Rachel allowed Necrom to possess the Force, gambling that its infinite power would be too much for him. Necrom’s physical form exploded, and Rachel was destroyed in the blast. The Force gathered her shattered psyche and restored her body, promising Excalibur to protect and nurture her until she fully healed. Through Rachel’s eyes, the Force was able to experience the simple beauty of existence. In space, it encountered the world-devourer Galactus, who revealed to the Force the nature of its existence. Tormented with the knowledge that its desire to explore humanity had prevented generations of life from being born, the Force fled. Rachel reentered the timestream and emerged some 2,000 years into the future of Earth-4935. There, she encountered Diamanda Nero, daughter of that era’s mutant despot Apocalypse, and, in order to defeat her, was forced to purge herself of the Force.

Free again, the Force traveled back into the past, drawn once again to Earth-616. En route, it was transported to the Ultraverse (Earth-93060) by a sentient alien starship that had crash-landed there eons ago. Buried deep within the Earth, the ship sought to reunite itself with its twin trapped within Earth’s sun, and intended to use the Force’s energy to power the recombination. Impaled on a lance of energy that linked the two ships, the Force fought back and managed to free itself, though not before the ship was able to bond them empathetically. Wounded, the Force sought out a host to protect it as it healed. Inhabiting the body of the super-strong hero Prime, the Force was opposed by the X-Men and Prime’s teammates in UltraForce. Exhausting Prime’s physical form, the Force found another host in Amber Hunt, who had previously been possessed by the ship’s essence. The heroes were able to free Hunt from the Force, after which they took the fight to the ship, severing its link to the Force. Seeking revenge, the Force attacked the ship, threatening the stability of the planet. The heroes were able to drive the Force into another portal, and it emerged four billion years in the past. Unleashing vast energies while transmigrating itself through time and space, the Force inadvertently (and ironically) caused the damage to the ship that forced it to crash-land to begin with.

The Force returned to Earth-616 once more and manifested itself within Jean Grey before she was seemingly killed by an electromagnetic pulse. This shattered the Force into billions of pieces. Incubating in the core of creation known as the White Hot Room, the Force was ripped back to reality by a Shi’ar device that forcibly reconstituted it. Injured, the Force fell to Earth and sought out Cyclops to use his mutant optic power to heal itself. To that end, it searched for Cyclops’ love Jean and, finding her dead, resurrected her to house its power once more. Opposed by the X-Men again, the Force was lured into possessing the body of Cyclops’ new love Emma Frost before Jean was able to reassert control. The Force realized that Jean was one of its missing pieces, its prime host, and so it merged with her fully. Returning to the White Hot Room, the Force set out to find its other pieces.


And that's from Marvel.com...

Nice to see you can copy and paste.

Which again isn't the most reliable source nor is it more reliable than the books themselves. They had power ratings before that were way off in many departments. And considering the fact that these "bios" are approved according to the site "based on the mood of the web guy" shows how much credibility they have.

 

[Valechan]

yes, Prime Host, a host is someone that can house its power, it's not the same, it clearly says that Jean is the host, and the Force is a different, separate thing. Nothing else. You all claim they are one and the same, and they're not.

 

[Valechan]

Nice to see you can copy and paste.

Which again isn't the most reliable source nor is it more reliable than the books themselves. They had power ratings before that were way off in many departments. And considering the fact that these "bios" are approved according to the site "based on the mood of the web guy" shows how much credibility they have.

And then you claim you're different than me... what you're doing in that post is saying that it's not valid because you don't like, which is what you accuse me of doing... so in essence, we're not all that different are we?

And yes, as of know I've decided to end all my posts with a pic sig

 

[Intheknow101]

yes, Prime Host, a host is someone that can house its power, it's not the same, it clearly says that Jean is the host, and the Force is a different, separate thing. Nothing else. You all claim they are one and the same, and they're not.

Oh look Storm sounds like a pretentious biatch. Is she talking about Black Panther's 'little soldier'? Man so thats what she has do do to become queen! Good for her.

 

[HandOfFate]

It doesnt prove anything because you dont want it to

You can roll your eyes all you want too but it doesn't prove anything. It just show that Jean's a powerful telepath, which we already knew. I think I understand our confusion now. What I consider a normal showing for Jean, you consider a cosmic level event.

Obviously the Phoenix Force has been around since creation.

IIRC, the latest issue of OHOTMU stated that the Phoenix Force the thing that saved Galactus from the death of the former universe. It was the thing that spoke to him and told him about his role in the new universe.

But the Phoenix is the Phoenix Force made conscious through an avatar. That avatar is Jean.

Not really

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2

In Classic X-men 43 Death tells her it is hers by right to wield like Excalibur and that it will pass to her children also by birthright.In New X-men 150-154 her blood- her genes- are used by Sublime Beast to give himself a measure of the Phoenix's powers. In Endsong, she is stated to be one with the Force. So, you aren't taking into account the full story.

That great. Keep in mind that it never said Jean was the only wielder of the Phoenix Force. Again, Jean is not the only person to handle the Phoenix Force.

Did you actually read the story, or are you just making stuff up?

Why don't you scan it in to refresh my memory

When.

Star Jammer Limited Series

So wait. The Phoenix Force, according to you, is something entirely separate from Jean with no special connection to her. So when it leaves her, she's just regular Jean. So in the story, when the Force leaves her and wanders around with Emma, how does she still have the power of the Phoenix Force unless the Force is hers (and not Emmas, or Xaviers, or Quentins) to command? Try not to contradict yourself next time.

You do realizes that the Phoenix Force has been split up into more then one host right? Nerom Vs Rachel in Excalibur 50.

 

[Intheknow101]

And then you claim you're different than me... what you're doing in that post is saying that it's not valid because you don't like, which is what you accuse me of doing... so in essence, we're not all that different are we?

And yes, as of know I've decided to end all my posts with a pic sig

No I'm saying that stuff isn't reliable. The thing even says some things are approved based on the mood of the web guy for crying outloud.

I'd take the ACTUAL ISSUES AND PANELS themselves than summaries which can be twisted any which way. The issue states "Jean is always Jean and always Phoenix and that they are ONE".

 

[Intheknow101]

You can roll your eyes all you want too but it doesn't prove anything. It just show that Jean's a powerful telepath, which we already knew. I think I understand our confusion now. What I consider a normal showing for Jean, you consider a cosmic level event.



IIRC, the latest issue of OHOTMU stated that the Phoenix Force the thing that saved Galactus from the death of the former universe. It was the thing that spoke to him and told him about his role in the new universe.



Not really

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60&page=2



That great. Keep in mind that it never said Jean was the only wielder of the Phoenix Force. Again, Jean is not the only person to handle the Phoenix Force.




Why don't you scan it in to refresh my memory



Star Jammer Limited Series



You do realizes that the Phoenix Force has been split up into more then one host right? Nerom Vs Rachel in Excalibur 50.

Those offcial handbooks leave out tons of details. And include things that shouldn't even be canon like novels. Obviously Marvel cares more about pumping these out than their accuracy. Even the Ultraverse crap was mentioned and Joe Quesada himself stated that the Ultraverse won't be visted because of legal issues.

 

[Valechan]

First, about the little soldier crack... He's black, I doubt it's little...

The "Jean is always Phoenix" thing is, like I said when I first read it, nothing more than POETIC CRAP. It's been stated over and over that TONS of people in the past were Phoenix, if she's always Phoenix then this people should not have been able to be, but they were, so she isn't.

Just because the Ultraverse cannot be visited now doesn't mean it should be erased out of continuity. Sersi and Black Knight, not to mention Juggernaut and Sienna Blaze, lived there, so it's part of their history.

You keep dismissing the Handbooks with no reason whatsoever. If they were so crappy, if they were so unreliable then they wouldn't be published and people wouldn't buy them and there wouldn't be a monthly handbook out there.

And btw, what I posted earlier, was the handbook entry, so it has nothing to do with webmasters...

 

[Exploding Boy]

Handbooks are crap. I have one that says people's powers are something that they arent.

 

[Valechan]

Explain further please, Exploding Boy.

And back to the Handbooks, I have no problem with them establishing that what happens on the novels is part of continuity. At least the ones dealing with alternate realities and such, like the X-Men/Doom Chaos Engine. You should read that story it's quite cool. It should also be established that the Movieverse is another reality and the cartoonverse as well. We just have to wait to see their little reality number.

 

[FieryBalrog]

/yawn. Anyway, I'm not interested in doing this over again. HandofFate, refer to the Scarlet Witch vs Jean thread for details. I'm not surprised what with you being a Storm fan and all, and there seems to be some inherent rivalry or something, but the debate has been done extensively on these boards.

Most recent continuity: Jean and Phoenix are one. Explicitly stated 3 times in Endsong, and implicitly stated 2-3 more times. If it can be retconned once, it can be re-retconned. All past appearances can be explained as rogue Phoenix/Jean shards as stated in Endsong. See Marvel bio that Sebita posted where it states Jean is one of the Force's pieces. I dont know how much clearer it gets.

 

[Intheknow101]

First, about the little soldier crack... He's black, I doubt it's little...

The "Jean is always Phoenix" thing is, like I said when I first read it, nothing more than POETIC CRAP. It's been stated over and over that TONS of people in the past were Phoenix, if she's always Phoenix then this people should not have been able to be, but they were, so she isn't.

Just because the Ultraverse cannot be visited now doesn't mean it should be erased out of continuity. Sersi and Black Knight, not to mention Juggernaut and Sienna Blaze, lived there, so it's part of their history.

You keep dismissing the Handbooks with no reason whatsoever. If they were so crappy, if they were so unreliable then they wouldn't be published and people wouldn't buy them and there wouldn't be a monthly handbook out there.

How is it poetic crap simply because you don't like it? It's stated and reiterated and shown that they were one and the same. It was why Jean was able to do what she did, and why they became whole again and it was still Jean.
There have been tons of people who control the weather too. It's still Storm's power and birthright to do so.

Ultraverse:
Except it's not because it was an intercompany crossover. Much like how DC crossovers are not mentioned in the handbooks despite them happening since Wolverine did go over there. BUt that's the problem. These summaries and OHOTMU are left to the discretion of whoever. It's no longer the 'comic bible' of the past.

Well obviously you like to read them. and Marvel just recycles it over and over again in different mixes which isn't costing them anything. Sounds like good business practice more than a case of reliability and function.

OMG Sebita you won't believe it. The handbooks show Jean is smarter than Storm in their ratings. So it MUST be true right?

 

[Valechan]

And still, if she has always been Phoenix then how come other people were Phoenix??? That's why it's poetic crap, because Jean HASN'T ALWAYS been Phoenix and PHoenix HASN'T ALWAYS been Jean.

And I suscribe to FieryBalrog, this has already been discussed...

 

[HandOfFate]

Those offcial handbooks leave out tons of details. And include things that shouldn't even be canon like novels. Obviously Marvel cares more about pumping these out than their accuracy. Even the Ultraverse crap was mentioned and Joe Quesada himself stated that the Ultraverse won't be visted because of legal issues.

Sadly, I don’t think Marvel really cares what we think. They have decide this is going to be the story of the Phoenix.

 

[Intheknow101]

Because the white hot room exists outside of space and time. Everything that ever is is there. Everything happens and is happening at once. Which is why once Jean became Phoenix she has always been Phoenix. If u become a concept, a force you exist pretty much forever.

And as shown those shards could go to anyone in their search to come back to Jean. Whether it be a firefly or Emma. BUT only other omega mutant psis like Jean can hope to survive long without being burnt out.

And still, if she has always been Phoenix then how come other people were Phoenix??? That's why it's poetic crap, because Jean HASN'T ALWAYS been Phoenix and PHoenix HASN'T ALWAYS been Jean.

And I suscribe to FieryBalrog, this has already been discussed...

 

[FieryBalrog]

And still, if she has always been Phoenix then how come other people were Phoenix???

Rogue shards, as stated in Endsong

That's why it's poetic crap, because Jean HASN'T ALWAYS been Phoenix and PHoenix HASN'T ALWAYS been Jean.

What can be retconned once can be re-retconned. Thats like saying Phoenix and Jean can't be separate because in the original Phoenix saga Phoenix and Jean were the same being. So I guess X-factor 1 with the retcon was "poetic crap"?


Thats a good idea. I'm going to dismiss Feron and Necrom as "poetic crap" whenever someone brings them up because they certainly dont line up with Claremont's Phoenix Saga.

 

[Valechan]

But she's not the Phoenix Force, she's its prime host, she's not it. So, she isn't a concept or a force that exists forever...

You can't compare an entire storyline to just a line, FieryBalrog... it's not the same.

 

[FieryBalrog]

But she's not the Phoenix Force, she's its prime host, she's not it. So, she isn't a concept or a force that exists forever...

Uh, it says she's one of its pieces. What does that mean? She's part of it. I'm not saying she's the whole thing. The Force is a cosmic force of life. Jean is the human piece. Thats all.

My personal theory is that there is one human piece per universe, which makes up the Phoenix Corps shown in Here Comes Tomorrow. Jean is the human piece for the 616 universe.

 

[Wolverazio]

There is not a single X-Man able to defeat Ororo, they never had, they never will.

Okay..new one.

Preview of next round (possibly):

Shadowcat vs. Storm. How can Storm defeat someone she can't affect?

 

[Intheknow101]

But she's not the Phoenix Force, she's its prime host, she's not it. So, she isn't a concept or a force that exists forever...

You can't compare an entire storyline to just a line, FieryBalrog... it's not the same.

OMG. Go read the Scarlet Witch thread. There has always been a force of life and creation. But it is a force, a concept. BUT Phoenix is a result of Jean becoming an abstract concept. and it is her mind's way of dealing with it all.

 

[Valechan]

Phoenix is Jean becoming an abstract concept? If she's abstract then she can't have a bodym which will leave her as usefull as the current state of Joseph, merged with the electromagnetic field of Earth. If she's abstract then she can't exist on this plane of reality, meaning she can't be an X-Man

Back to Storm vs Kitty:
Who says she can't affect her?? Phasing does not make her immune to cold. She just needs to fly a little, create a flash freeze and boom, Hypothermia Kitty in a second.

 

[El Bastardo]

Okay..new one.

Preview of next round (possibly):

Shadowcat vs. Storm. How can Storm defeat someone she can't affect?

Ooooh! You only THINK Storm can't affect Shadowcat! But I know of one goddess-goddess who can affect the little kitty. Why, if we go back to Uncanny X-Men number...

 

[Exploding Boy]

You guys Sebita will never change his views so just stop wasting your time.

heres Storm getting owned by Emma(despite her TP "immunity")

 

[Optic Rage]

looks like The Jean vs Storm fight started a lttle early...