Comics X-Men: Last Man Standing (Round 3)

[Exploding Boy]

No one cares about round 4, or my round 2 prove of Sam's abilitiy

 

[Intheknow101]

Goddess I hate it when you all post when I'm away... about telepathy and Ororo... goddess... how can you so forgetful??? JEAN GREY HERSELF clearly stated that a deep probe of Ororo's mind is IMPOSSIBLE unless she allows you to, in X-Treme X-Men 9. If Ororo doesn't want you in her mind, you won't enter period. The Grey King's power was to merely disable powers, period, he was an amalgam of Jean/Cap Britain and Leech. Nothing more, nothing else.

And about Kitty, when she is phasing she is susceptible to cold, read Excalibur: Mojo Mayhem, that's the first example that comes to mind, but I bet there must be hundreds of them.

Being hard to read doesn't protect you from psychic attack. Reading's someone's mind is different than blasting it with psychic energy. One example off the top of my head is Rogue. She's incredibly hard to read...some say even impossible. But she still is quite vulnerable to telepathy's numerous other uses like illusions and psychic bolts.

Grey King had telepathy. That's why when he attacked Storm she screamed "my mind!!"

Also X-Treme X-Men #9 Jean said a "deep probe". Which means that all her other thoughts and brain functions are quite accessible.
Funny thing is that Xavier himself said in UXM 375 that Storm's thoughts have always been the clearest and easiest to read.

 

[Intheknow101]

You're forcing me to divulge the info I gathered a while ago... I'm dying to post this, so here it is...

X-Factor 25

"Some... force... electro-magnetic, maybe... expelling us! Blocking my telekinetics!" Jean Grey

Uncanny 446

"Nail her with you EMP, 'Ro!" Wolverine

Jean's telekinesis can be disrupted by an electro-magnetic pulse. Guess who can make an EMP? Ororo can surround herself in an EM field, deflecting Jean's tk, her own indomitable will prevents Jean from taking over her mind (as seen in Uncanny 457, where Rachel couldn't do this, and X-Treme X-Men 9), so... what does she have against her? If Ororo truly used her powers to the limit in a fight, Ms Grey could do NOTHING to attack her, Ororo can easily cover herself from any and all attacks, can Jean do it? Jean might be able to anchor herself from a strong wind, but she cannot survive a full lightning attack. She can create a tk bubble to protect herself, but Ororo can create a EMP just before the lightning to block her tk. In short, given this new bit of evidence, Jean Grey cannot defeat Ororo Munroe. Thank you, good night.

Notice Jean said "maybe". It could have been anything. And X-Factor was not the peak of her tk, in fact she only just got it back. Her tk only grew stronger and stronger from there as she developed her powers more and explored them further. If EMPs truly blocked tk of any level, then Storm would have had an easy time against people like Maddylene Pryor, Legion, or other telekinetics. I think EMP may only block up to a certain "level" before the telekinesis is too powerful. Jean is the definition of "telekinetic godhood".

 

[Exploding Boy]

Dont even bother...

 

[Intheknow101]

One more thing about the "hard to read" defense. Magneto is impossible to "read" too with his helmet on, but that didn't stop Jean from telepathically casting an illusion into his head, which he fell for.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Anyways. Round 4...?

 

[HandOfFate]

Light is 186,000 MPS.

And again: Storm has to think to create her lightning, just as Jean has to think to project telekinesis. Speed of thought cancels out on both sides.

This is why I always think it comes to down too who strike, who first.

In many ways their powers are very similar. Even if you consider her lightning, Storm's winds equal TK on certain levels

Their two sides of the same coin.

 

[RSS]

Light is 186,000 MPS.

And again: Storm has to think to create her lightning, just as Jean has to think to project telekinesis. Speed of thought cancels out on both sides.

Alright, I accept what you've said about the speed of lightning. Even though, I have a more simple solution: Why shouldn't she just discharge electricity at her? She can fire electrical energy as well, not just lightning.

And electrical energy(NOT electrical currents) does move as fast as light(correct me if I'm wrong).

As for the TP part, I think that the quote I mentioned is my post just about says it(she shrugged off a lethal mental attack from Emma, that gotta say something).​

 

[Valechan]

First of all, since this is still open for some reason... Uncanny 277, it wasn't just Xavier's power, it was the combined psionic might of Xavier, Psylocke and Oracle, and still she didn't fall, still she couldn't be controled. Second, she withstood the full fury of the Shadow King in 266 .

In Uncanny 304, they re-validate my X-FActor 24 quote, Jean clearly says that Magneto used an electro-magnetic pulse to disrupt her psionics. Ororo can create such pulses herself as well. It's quite simple to defeat Jean, an EMP, an then a hurricane, we've seen she is unable to concentrate if Ororo spins her around fast. In two seconds, Ororo won. Jean can try to telepathically control her, but Ororo's will would be enough to resist until she can conjure an EMP, then, with Jean's powers disrupted, a hurricane to finish the deed, and bye bye Ms Grey.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Alright, I accept what you've said about the speed of lightning. Even though, I have a more simple solution: Why shouldn't she just discharge electricity at her? She can fire electrical energy as well, not just lightning.

And electrical energy(NOT electrical currents) does move as fast as light(correct me if I'm wrong).

As for the TP part, I think that the quote I mentioned is my post just about says it(she shrugged off a lethal mental attack from Emma, that gotta say something).​

Electrical energy is the movement of electrons. Electrons have mass, and thats why they dont move as fast as light does. They move about the same speed as lightning.

 

[Intheknow101]

First of all, since this is still open for some reason... Uncanny 277, it wasn't just Xavier's power, it was the combined psionic might of Xavier, Psylocke and Oracle, and still she didn't fall, still she couldn't be controled. Second, she withstood the full fury of the Shadow King in 266 .

In Uncanny 304, they re-validate my X-FActor 24 quote, Jean clearly says that Magneto used an electro-magnetic pulse to disrupt her psionics. Ororo can create such pulses herself as well. It's quite simple to defeat Jean, an EMP, an then a hurricane, we've seen she is unable to concentrate if Ororo spins her around fast. In two seconds, Ororo won. Jean can try to telepathically control her, but Ororo's will would be enough to resist until she can conjure an EMP, then, with Jean's powers disrupted, a hurricane to finish the deed, and by by Ms Grey.

Yet for all the yick yack about her resisting she still succumbed to damage and was on the floor in PAIN. Xavier had to HEAL her mind afterwards which means she was being damaged, not just sitting there not feeling a thing. WHich means while being harder to mind control and she might eventually break free from that, a psionic attack directly on her brain is a different matter. It's the same with Rogue who is difficult to read or mind control, but she still easily succumbs to mental bolts. And Magneto who is hard to read but he still is vulnerable to actual telepathic attack, at least when it comes to Jean.


Telekinetic snapping of Storm's legs, a subtle illusion to think she was racing for open sky, or a blot clot in the brain and it's BYE BYE Storm.

As for the EMP thing: Jean has been in the sun, TWICE as phoenix. As 90's powered Jean she was able to shield herself from a white star which is even hotter than our sun. In either case, you do know that the electromagnetic energy from either sun(s) is enormous and exponentially greater than anything that Storm can produce right?

 

[Valechan]

Ororo suffered direct attacks from the Shadow King and was able to endure long enough to attack him, the same with Emma Frost. She is perhaps the most resilient non-telepath to telepathic attacks.

And yes, the sun has vast electromagnetic fields, but one thing is to approach them by will and another is to have it directed at you. EMP affect her when they're directed at her, it's very different.

And even if she did manage to tk snap her legs, she would receive Storm's attack at the same time Ororo's legs broke, and we've all seen Jean is unable to concentrate or to do anything once Ororo has her in her whirlwinds. Ororo might loose her legs, but Jean would die (again, and again and again... she should be renamed Jeannie McCormick).

If it serves as solace, Jean has a record of bringing blankets to Xavier...

 

[Optic Rage]

Just because you brought this thing back to life...i thought id pick on one of your old comments.

Remember how you thought Storm would easily beat Angel.....well i went back and read black sun the other day and guess what..Instead of Storm frying him as easily as you put it..Angel[yes with feather wings] was actually going to win that fight untill storms body was about to be eaten by a demon..and instead of knocking her out he knocked out the demon instead[he didnt want any harm to come to storms body even tough it wasnt her on the inside]...letting Storm then attack Angel and knocking him out.

Im not saying that Angel is better the Storm[no i think its the other way round]..i just think you need to get your facts right in the future.

 

[Intheknow101]

Resilient but still not immune. That's where her downfall is. Jean has taken down telepathically immune people like Juggernaut and Magneto. Heck she's taken down people with MULTIPLE shields that she had never encountered before.
Shadow King in their last encounter during the Psi War pulled her onto the astral plane where she couldn't do a thing since physical powers mean nothing there.

The sun is constantly directing far greaters amounts of electromagnetic energy outwards. Jean was in two seperate suns, and shielded herself from a white star. Sun or Magneto > Storm, electromagnetic wise.

Once again Jean wasn't trying to take out Storm in that training session where she was TESTING AND TRAINING STORM. If she did, it would have been a different matter all together. In fact Jean even admitted it was FUN. Jean's tk shield can withstand Storm's whirlwind. They've stood up to much much worse.

And you're forgetting that Jean can pull Storm onto the astral plane and give her her @$$ kicking there. Or merely attack with her astral form.

Ororo suffered direct attacks from the Shadow King and was able to endure long enough to attack him, the same with Emma Frost. She is perhaps the most resilient non-telepath to telepathic attacks.

And yes, the sun has vast electromagnetic fields, but one thing is to approach them by will and another is to have it directed at you. EMP affect her when they're directed at her, it's very different.

And even if she did manage to tk snap her legs, she would receive Storm's attack at the same time Ororo's legs broke, and we've all seen Jean is unable to concentrate or to do anything once Ororo has her in her whirlwinds. Ororo might loose her legs, but Jean would die (again, and again and again... she should be renamed Jeannie McCormick).

If it serves as solace, Jean has a record of bringing blankets to Xavier...

 

[Intheknow101]

Just because you brought this thing back to life...i thought id pick on one of your old comments.

Remember how you thought Storm would easily beat Angel.....well i went back and read black sun the other day and guess what..Instead of Storm frying him as easily as you put it..Angel[yes with feather wings] was actually going to win that fight untill storms body was about to be eaten by a demon..and instead of knocking her out he knocked out the demon instead[he didnt want any harm to come to storms body even tough it wasnt her on the inside]...letting Storm then attack Angel and knocking him out.

Im not saying that Angel is better the Storm[no i think its the other way round]..i just think you need to get your facts right in the future.

Word. And Cyclops took HER out too in an old issue of Uncanny, along with the rest of the team. Storm = preachy over rated biatch.

 

[Valechan]

Black Sun wasn't Ororo, it was a N'Garai in Ororo's body, it's not the same

And the Shadow King didn't pull Ororo to the Astral Plane, she willingly went there with Psylocke.

Jean's TK can't withstand Ororo's whirlwind, as shown in Uncanny 137, yes, the Dark Phoenix Saga, Ororo had her on the ropes, then Colossus punched her, and then poor weak Jean decided the coward's way out and killed herself for fear of not being able to control her darkness. Ten issues later, Ororo faced her darkness and overcame it

In the milisecond it takes Jean to enter the astral plane, Ororo can destroy her body.

And sure, the tk thing was playing, but what about Uncanny 385? She wasn't palying there and she was on the brink of suffocation.

 

[Intheknow101]

Black Sun wasn't Ororo, it was a N'Garai in Ororo's body, it's not the same

And the Shadow King didn't pull Ororo to the Astral Plane, she willingly went there with Psylocke.

In the milisecond it takes Jean to enter the astral plane, Ororo can destroy her body.

And sure, the tk thing was playing, but what about Uncanny 385? She wasn't palying there and she was on the brink of suffocation.

UXM 385- There Jean didn't have any tk to defend herself with even if she did want to go all out. The other team got the drop on Gambit's team. Both times Jean was at half power. Yet whenever Jean was at full power she's handed Storm her @$$.

So Storm went there on her own despite knowing she's totally useless on the astral plane?

To quote Xavier: "Storm's thoughts have always been particularly uncluttered and open, making her alliegence the easiest to read."

And I know this was in their minds as a result of Jean and Xavier's illusion, but this is hilarious. Storm is the one that just met her end via optic blast WAAM!:

 

[El Bastardo]

^ That's just the writer trying to keep it interesting.

 

[Valechan]

No, it was Xavier taking Storm out because she was the one he trusted the most. The scenario was created to find out who X-Men where trustworthy and who wasn't. Ororo was taken out first because she was the most trusted one.

Ororo's mind has always been easy for Xavier to read because she allowed him to. If Ororo chose not to allow Xavier to read he mind he would not do it. It's quite simple to understand. She trusts Xavier, she lets him read her mind. When she didn't trust him (X-Treme) she was not even worried about him reading her mind, heck she spent the last night at the school with him, left the next morning and he had no clue where they had gone or why.

In Uncnany 137 Jean was at her full power and didn't stop Ororo's hurricane. So...

 

[Intheknow101]

No, it was Xavier taking Storm out because she was the one he trusted the most. The scenario was created to find out who X-Men where trustworthy and who wasn't. Ororo was taken out first because she was the most trusted one.

Ororo's mind has always been easy for Xavier to read because she allowed him to. If Ororo chose not to allow Xavier to read he mind he would not do it. It's quite simple to understand. She trusts Xavier, she lets him read her mind. When she didn't trust him (X-Treme) she was not even worried about him reading her mind, heck she spent the last night at the school with him, left the next morning and he had no clue where they had gone or why.

In Uncnany 137 Jean was at her full power and didn't stop Ororo's hurricane. So...

No according to his words: "Storm's thoughts have ALWAYS been particularly uncluttered and open...." Xavier was trying to find the mole, and I doubt he'd go around saying "oh please can I read your mind Storm so I can see if you are a traitor." He did it without permission. Much like how Jean and him involved all of the X-Men in a psychic scenario to determine who was legit without asking them first as that would defeat the purpose.

He trusted her first because she was the easiest to read and scan.

In Uncanny 137, Jean wanted them to attack her and burn her out. She wanted to be taken out, yet despite that she wasn't. In the end the only person that could kill her was herself. When Scott starts blasting her she says "Good Scott, you're doing exactly what I prayed you would." And the caption says: "Her power is awesome but for the present it still has limits and she has reached them." So no Jean was not at full power during this scene.

Also note that Jean's telekinesis was also able to call down enormous amounts of lightning that caressed her body and easily dispersed Storm's fog.

 

[FieryBalrog]

...yawn

 

[Valechan]

Oh right, Jean Wanted to be attacked ... sigh...

Wolverine 113, Ororo's winds instantly pinned Jean against a wall so shut the f*** up , but I guess she wanted Ororo to stop her then. And she also wanted Ororo to stop her on Uncanny 385, of course, and right, let's not forget she allowed Ororo to whirl her around because it was fun in 270 ...

Ororo's thoughts were always uncluttered to Charles because she always trusted him, because she had no reason not to allow him to enter her mind. Her reasons came years later.

 

[Almighty Pejo]

And I guess Storm wanted to get tossed around like a rag doll everytime she went up agaisnt Jean in the Dark Phoenix Saga. She also wanted weak-ass Emma Frost to throw her to the ground, too. Just like she wants to be mind controlled by every generic villain to come along, and wants to be kidnapped by them. Turn about is so fun sometimes!

 

[Valechan]

Read the previous post pejo, he started the whole "she wanted it" I was being sarcastic... and besides, Jean's wasn't Dark Phoenix, it was the Phoenix Force in a duplicate body of Jean with a stolen portion of her mind, it wasn't her so it doesn't count

 

[Almighty Pejo]

LOL Yeah, right. And I'm the Queen of Sheba.