X-Men - Part 3

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I've heard all of that before. You know the best way to deal with those awful, heart-wrenching consequences of killing people? Don't kill people.

 

[BoredGuy]

Have you read any of Remender's X-Force yet Corp??
Because, I'm sure you've heard it before, but it is amazing.
Arguably one of Marvel's 2 best books.
It's so good you don't question their methods..

You seem to have much hatred for most things x-related lately, which is a shame

 

[chamber-music]

X-Force has always been a pro-active mutant strike force on the outskirts of Xaviers dream.

Cable and the New Mutants he turned into X-force didn't set out to kill but I don't remember them being against doing so. Cable has no problem killing.

When Pete Wisdom turned them into a covert black ops group they killed people as well.

I don't know why Beast is cheesed off about most of the X-Men and many of the Avengers have killed people before.

 

[javi1024]

If it had no ties to the X-Men, sure, it'd be fine. It'd just be a bunch of renegade crazies who decided, "F*** Xavier's dream, we're gonna kill our way to mutant supremacy!" They could also cast them as the morally dubious anti-villains that they clearly are instead of trying to pretend that they're somehow not murderous psychopaths who are killing everything in their way because trying to come up with better solutions is too hard for them.

As far as Scott and Logan are concerned, that WAS the better solution. Mutants are down to their last numbers with their backs against the walls so they just said "That's it. We can't have the Purifiers and Marauders and Humanity Now coming back to us to kill more of our numbers. Put an end to it. Period." Do I agree with that thinking? No, but it makes for good story telling when you get inside these guys heads, especially under Remender. And I'm still hoping for the moment when X-Force is outed in front of the entire world practically undoing everything Scott has tried to do for mutantkind.

 

[Havok83]

Scott was having X-force kill minions. Yeah they can kill a bunch of them but as long as Bastion and his cartel were active, they'd just recruit more Purifiers to take their place and the cycle would continue. X-force wasnt the better situtation and was morally and ethically wrong. Killing should only be a last resort and it was mainly the first resort with X-force Why kill a bunch of humans with guns and no powers? Not all Purifiers were evil and chose to follow Bastion. Some were brainwashed and forced into that. Alot just misguided and uninformed. Why dont they get a second chance? Heck some of the X-men were led into that lifestyle at one time. Elixir having started out as a Puridier and Cannonball as a Hellfire Club soldier. What if the X-men just up and killed them no questions asked when they first met.

I dont see why killing was the solution especially when they have an X-Brig which they have been using to collect X-villains whom are FAR more dangerous and capable, yet they dont kill them. The logic is completely flawed and screwed up and I see no justification behind Scott's X-force at all. The lies and shadyness only made it worse. I was disgusted when the New Mutants were killing and no one saw anything wrong with it. They should have been called out on that crap as well but Scott would have looked hypocritical had he done that considering his big secret

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's one of my problems with the Marvel universe as it stands today. You'd be hard-pressed to find any alleged heroes without a single death on their conscience. It makes the whole Marvel universe slightly depressing.

But X-Force is a different beast. If you're dealing with a situation out in the open and a guy turns a gun on a bunch of kids, sure, you stop him however you can, even if it means killing him. If you suspect a guy is plotting against you and your first response is to murder him in his sleep, you're not a hero. You're an assassin. X-Force is a group of assassins. Wolverine is an assassin. The whole reason he was drafted onto the Avengers--and this will forever be one of the most gut-wrenchingly awful stains Bendis left on the entire Avengers franchise--is because Iron Man wanted a lethal weapon he could point at whatever he wanted on the team. He wanted an assassin who'd kill without hesitation. That Cap just rolled over and allowed Wolverine onto the team knowing that forever tarnishes Cap's heroic status as well.

These murderous bastards masquerading as heroes in a disturbing number of comics lately turn my stomach and tarnish the whole superhero paradigm for me. That's why I try to avoid reading comics like X-Force altogether. That's why I dropped Green Lantern Corps over at DC. That's why I hated Greg Pak's run on War Machine. Superheroes, in their best, purest incarnation, shouldn't kill. That they do in the heat of battle is something I can live with; that some sociopathic characters kill because they're too lazy to find better solutions and still manage to pass themselves off as heroes makes me sick, so I avoid it whenever possible. But it still trickles out into the larger universe and makes a lot of what would be heroic moral stands look like ridiculous farces instead. The climactic moment of the Kree/Shi'ar War where Cap and Iron Man split the Avengers right down the middle over whether or not to kill the Supreme Intelligence? Meaningless now that Cap's happily sicced the Punisher on his former friends in Civil War and allowed Wolverine to be recruited onto the Avengers specifically as an assassin. Spider-Man and Daredevil's insistence that the Punisher not kill in the current "Omega Code" crossover? Meaningless now that Spider-Man's on a team with several people who kill whenever they can and Daredevil's killed several people himself. It becomes really irritating over time, and I've been reading these murder-related paradoxes for decades now.

 

[Havok83]

I dont agree with their methods but both X-force and now Uncanny X-force have consistently been 2 of the best written books in Marvel. Its too bad you havent read them as they truly are enjoyable reads. I think Logan's team under Remender has a bit more heart than the old team as it isnt just killing. Theres a really strong dynamic amonth the team members that just works and the characterization is top notch. If he wasnt such a cash cow, Marvel should have removed Wolverine from the Avengers and Xmen bc he's been best utilized over in X-force as far as team titles are concerned. His inclusion in the other two has seemed rather inconsistent to say the least

 

[chamber-music]

I didn't read Greg Pak's War Machine but I read his solo series in the 90s and Rhodey struggled with killing villains back then. He killed but felt alot of remorse about it.

The fact superheroes kill doesn't bother me. The morality of comics has always been skewed.

Superheroes at the end of the day are vigilantes who violent beat suspected criminals without warning to a pulp often beating them so bad they end up in hospital.

Superheroes say they believe in the legal system yet act completely outside and above the legal system.

If superheroes were real there would easily be a case for murder or at the very least manslaughter against the majority of them.

Wolverine and Spidey have no business being Avengers either but thats another discussion entirely.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But they're not real and there's no reason real rules need apply to them. Superhero fiction is built on the premise that what these people do isn't psychotic or outlandish. Otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy, it'd be a gritty, violent horror show. Just look to Super or Kick-Ass if that's what you're interested in.

I dont agree with their methods but both X-force and now Uncanny X-force have consistently been 2 of the best written books in Marvel. Its too bad you havent read them as they truly are enjoyable reads. I think Logan's team under Remender has a bit more heart than the old team as it isnt just killing. Theres a really strong dynamic amonth the team members that just works and the characterization is top notch. If he wasnt such a cash cow, Marvel should have removed Wolverine from the Avengers and Xmen bc he's been best utilized over in X-force as far as team titles are concerned. His inclusion in the other two has seemed rather inconsistent to say the least

That would've been nice. Beast could've reopened the school and Cap could've b****-slapped Iron Man for putting Wolverine on the Avengers in the first place.

 

[Havok83]

Superheroes say they believe in the legal system yet act completely outside and above the legal system.

If superheroes were real there would easily be a case for murder or at the very least manslaughter against the majority of them.

well thats kinda the premise behind Cyclops getting blackmailed. If Brand goes to the authorities over what happened under his watch, he'd be in some serious legal trouble.

 

[chamber-music]

But they're not real and there's no reason real rules need apply to them. Superhero fiction is built on the premise that what these people do isn't psychotic or outlandish. Otherwise it wouldn't be a fantasy, it'd be a gritty, violent horror show. Just look to Super or Kick-Ass if that's what you're interested in.

I get its fantasy and thats fine but if they pick and choose which moral points to up hold and which to disregard they end up looking like hypocrites or arrogant idiots.

There should be more consistency. With most of the well written superheroes you know where you stand or atleast understand why they feel the way they do about a issue.

well thats kinda the premise behind Cyclops getting blackmailed. If Brand goes to the authorities over what happened under his watch, he'd be in some serious legal trouble.

If Scott was really going to be a docuche he would of said blackmailing a guy who ran his own secret mutant death squad is not a good idea but obviously he didn't because he wants to work with Brand/Sword more than against it.

Xavier sent a team of teenage mutants to their deaths and covered it up. People still like the guy too.

 

[Havok83]

Xavier sent a team of teenage mutants to their deaths and covered it up. People still like the guy too.

Xavier got tons of hell for that crap. Several revelations from his past came out a few years ago which has tarnished and done damage to his character. He hasnt been a major figure within the X-men since.

 

[chamber-music]

Xavier got tons of hell for that crap. Several revelations from his past came out a few years ago which has tarnished and done damage to his character. He hasnt been a major figure within the X-men since.

Yes but alot of the X-men are still on surprisingly good terms with him all things considered.

I remember when Xaiver thought he could rehabilitate Sabertooth.

You would think everyone would of figured our Xavier was a rubbish leader year ago

Hell they let Magneto on the team and his killed a ton of people. Emma Frost murdered her own sister in cold blood and that was when she was a 'goody' in Gen X.

 

[Havok83]

Oh you mean the characters; I thought you might have meant the readers. Most of the X-men weren't personally affected by the DG revelations. Scott was really the only one that was pissed off by Xavier and remained so for years bc he had his memories altered and manipulated. He was the only one that knew and met the DG team and then had that erased from him. Most of the other X-men werent around for any of that so it makes sense why they wouldnt be hating on Xavier for it.

 

[venom892]

Uncanny X-force is my favorite book right now. Nothing beats it. Also just so everyone knows it seems the Fraction/Aja teaser is for a Hawkeye ongoing. So nothing to do with Gambit.

 

[runawayboulder]

Well that sucks. I love Hawkeye but I hate Fraction even more.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh, well that's one less book I'll be buying. Cool.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's Hawkeye, so I'll try it. Fraction's hit-or-miss at best, but he does still have some hits. His Thor run has improved considerably, provided you can just get past a couple of persistent irritants (like Frigga being called "Freyja" all the time).

 

[Scarecrow_King]

Aja is always good to look at, though.

 

[runawayboulder]

Eh, I still think Fraction's a d**k.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

A lot of comic writers are. Take that as a reason to skip their work and you'll soon find your pull list thinning out.

 

[Specter313]

Eh, he seemed cool enough the year I met him at the Baltimore Comic Con. Even went out of the way to tell me and my friends a story about Cheung after he signed my issue of Young Avengers Presents that he wrote.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Did it start, "So Jim was like 3 weeks late on this issue already..."?

 

[Specter313]

Did it start, "So Jim was like 3 weeks late on this issue already..."?

Heh, no. But the fact that he went out of his way to physically recreate all the older artwork in the background of those covers that he did for those, instead of them copying the art or him tracing it.

 

[runawayboulder]

A lot of comic writers are. Take that as a reason to skip their work and you'll soon find your pull list thinning out.

True enough, but that's ok. My pull list is still larger than I'd like so I'll keep being stubborn and judgmental. t:

Uncanny X-force is my favorite book right now. Nothing beats it.

I have to say that WATXM has unseated it slightly. Aaron does such a DAMN terrific job writing those kids. Remender does a great job with his team but I'm enjoying the inaugural class of the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning so much. There's no other book at Marvel that can stand toe to toe with UXF and WATXM......maybe Daredevil.