X-Men - Part 5

[runawayboulder]

People always blame Morrison for ruining Cyclops but in actuality it was Alan Davis and a huge clusterf**k of writers that did it. Morrison worked with what he got and made it interesting. Whedon proved that it could be worked with even better. I think it was Brubaker and Fraction that pushed him down the path of being the extremist.

Aside from that, Mad Ones nailed the other great stuff Morrison brought to the table, specifically Xorn's special class and the new students in it. They were all interesting and visually striking compared to the new mutant members that had come in prior eras like Gambit, Bishop, Maggot, ect.

 

[Havok83]

Davis didn't even really write for Scott, so I don't blame him. He "killed" him off, but that doesn't equate to ruining him off. When he came back in the core books under Lobdell, I thought the character was fine as written in Eve of Destruction and felt like his old self. That issue with Corsair was one of the best Scott characterization Ive read. Too bad Morrison didn't follow through with that. The route he took was more mature and complex. I get it, but it didn't exactly make Scott likeable but rather set him up on his downward spiral which ruined him in my eyes

As for Fraction, the guy is the single worse writer to touch the core books. Theres not much good that can be said about his reign. Davis would come in second

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, Morrison had a lot of good things in his run, but Cyclops was not it. And I've heard people often say that he made Cyclops interesting. I fail to see how. Lobdell made him more hardcore during Eve of Destruction, which I liked. How does Morrison making him reclusive from his wife and eventually cheating on her make him interesting. It makes him garbage. I hated him as a character after that until the final arc of Whedon's run. I liked him off and on after that, but he's been half the character he used to be since Morrison got a hold of him.

So yeah, in my opinion Morrison ruined Cyclops. The other writers just kept the unfortunate characterization going.

 

[runawayboulder]

Morrison left him in a position where the next guy could have went one of two ways with him. Whedon actually did a great job with Cyclops but everyone else after him did the opposite. I can't blame Morrison for that, it's silly.

You're right though, Davis isn't really the one to blame. Lobdell definitely isn't. Like I said, the X-Men comics were in such a state of disarray leading to Eve of Destruction. Looking back at it now, EoD was the perfect opportunity to close that volume, then relaunch with a new #1 under Morrison. Things weren't are crazy back then like they are now. If Morrison was taking over the book these days, a new #1 would be an absolute given.

 

[runawayboulder]

Yeah, Morrison had a lot of good things in his run, but Cyclops was not it. And I've heard people often say that he made Cyclops interesting. I fail to see how. Lobdell made him more hardcore during Eve of Destruction, which I liked. How does Morrison making him reclusive from his wife and eventually cheating on her make him interesting. It makes him garbage. I hated him as a character after that until the final arc of Whedon's run. I liked him off and on after that, but he's been half the character he used to be since Morrison got a hold of him.

So yeah, in my opinion Morrison ruined Cyclops. The other writers just kept the unfortunate characterization going.

Scott had a history of being flaky with women way before Morrison came along. Claremont had him dump his wife Madelyn for Jean Grey then Lobdell had him almost do with Psylocke what he ended up doing with Emma Frost, so I can't buy your argument.

 

[Mad Ones]

Did Morrison ruin Jean by having her make out with Wolvie in the forest?

 

[javi1024]

They've succumbed to temptation before then. It's really nothing new.

 

[runawayboulder]

Logan kissed her then promptly rejected her in that scene. He knew what he was doing. Jean came around feeling sorry for herself and Logan didn't take the bait.

 

[Havok83]

Scott had a history of being flaky with women way before Morrison came along. Claremont had him dump his wife Madelyn for Jean Grey then Lobdell had him almost do with Psylocke what he ended up doing with Emma Frost, so I can't buy your argument.

CC didn't write the Maddie stuff. That was mandated by Marvel and it happened in the pages of X-factor, written by Bob Layton. If CC had his way, Scott and Maddie would have remained in Alaska, happy together, which was how he intended to leave them, but of course Marvel had bigger plans for the character

You also got writers wrong with the Psylocke/Scott plot. That happened in the pages of X-men and Nicieza wrote that. And that doesn't even compare to what went down with Emma. There was no affair. It amounted to Psylocke teasing and flirting with him but he did not reciprocate any feelings nor did he pursue her. When she kissed him, he pulled away and told her it cant happen. At the end of the day, he had it revealed that it was Kwannon's psyche which was responsible her behavior and trying to influence Scott.

Emma tempted Scott and he went right along with her, What made it all worse was that he was actually married by this point. Morrison's final act as writer was having Scott make out with a half naked Emma over Jean's grave, like 5 minutes after she was buried. That was beyond awful and in extremely poor taste no matter how one felt about any of the characters involved

 

[runawayboulder]

CC didn't write the Maddie stuff. That was mandated by Marvel and it happened in the pages of X-factor, written by Bob Layton. If CC had his way, Scott and Maddie would have remained in Alaska, happy together, which was how he intended to leave them, but of course Marvel had bigger plans for the character

You also got writers wrong with the Psylocke/Scott plot. That happened in the pages of X-men and Nicieza wrote that. And that doesn't even compare to what went down with Emma. There was no affair. It amounted to Psylocke teasing and flirting with him but he did not reciprocate any feelings nor did he pursue her. When she kissed him, he pulled away and told her it cant happen. At the end of the day, he had it revealed that it was Kwannon's psyche which was responsible her behavior and trying to influence Scott.

First off, there's no way you can tell me that Bob Layton or (Louise Simonson for that matter) had more pull than Chris Claremont at that time. There is no way I will ever believe that.

And second, Nicieza may have scripted the issues but Lobdell was the lead guy for the line at the time. He was the one doing the plots for X-Men while writing Uncanny.

Emma tempted Scott and he went right along with her, What made it all worse was that he was actually married by this point. Morrison's final act as writer was having Scott make out with a half naked Emma over Jean's grave, like 5 minutes after she was buried. That was beyond awful and in extremely poor taste no matter how one felt about any of the characters involved

I hear this nonsense all the time about that scene. If you read "Here Comes Tomorrow", you know that Jean pushed Scott to kiss Emma at the end. In part 1 he walked away from her and it led to that apocalyptic future. Jean knew what she was doing. People act like Morrison had Scott act all blatantly out of character. It's not as cut and dry as everyone wants to make it out to be in order to support why they hate Morrison.

 

[Havok83]

First off, there's no way you can tell me that Bob Layton or (Louise Simonson for that matter) had more pull than Chris Claremont at that time. There is no way I will ever believe that.

No Im saying MARVEL had more pull. It wasn't Layton or Simonson's ideas; they wrote what Marvel wanted. CC wanted Scott retired. He was against him coming back full time as a hero and the marriage broken up. Marvel wanted a book with the O5 and the concept wouldn't have worked without Scott and Jean. CC's work was pretty much retconned and undone. That was not his idea, especially since he had nothing to do with X-factor till much later.

And second, Nicieza may have scripted the issues but Lobdell was the lead guy for the line at the time. He was the one doing the plots for X-Men while writing Uncanny.

Okay? Still doesn't change what was actually written in the story, which I explained above.

I hear this nonsense all the time about that scene. If you read "Here Comes Tomorrow", you know that Jean pushed Scott to kiss Emma at the end. In part 1 he walked away from her and it led to that apocalyptic future. Jean knew what she was doing. People act like Morrison had Scott act all blatantly out of character. It's not as cut and dry as everyone wants to make it out to be in order to support why they hate Morrison.

Jean's message was to "Live". She didnt say go make out with Emma over her grave! That's BS blaming that tasteless scene on Jean. It was clear he and Emma were going to be a couple after she died. They didn't have to make out right after the funeral on top of her headstone. It was a *****e move and pretty much summed up Morrison's take on the character. That was the final image he left us with him and it was fitting given how he was portrayed leading up to that

And if you read my earlier comments, I DONT hate Morrison. I listed him in my top 5 favorite writers! Just because someone doesn't like how he wrote one character doesn't mean its some agenda aimed at hating him.

 

[Mad Ones]

I really hate what Bendis is doing with Jean and Beast. Now Hank has always been in love with her, because Jean can't have any male friends apparently. I hate what it does to her character and I've always seen Jean and Hank as really good friends. Adult Beast came across really creepy last issue...

 

[slim_summers]

I really hate what Bendis is doing with Jean and Beast. Now Hank has always been in love with her, because Jean can't have any male friends apparently. I hate what it does to her character and I've always seen Jean and Hank as really good friends. Adult Beast came across really creepy last issue...

Agree completely. It's been a while since I read classic X-Men but I don't recall any hints that Beast was in love with Jean. All the guys flirted with her of course, but considering Angel, Xavier and Scott were explicitly shown to be in love with her it frankly would have been a bit stupid if another central character was thrown into the mix.

And yeh, that scene with adult Beast thinking about teen Jeannie (who he knows is psychic!) was horrible and more than a little creepy.

 

[chamber-music]

Claremont wanting retire Cyclops with Maddie is a well known thing which Chris has talked about many times. I don't know who exactly over ruled him and decided to bring Scott back.

I'm glad Scott came back but Marvel obviously screwed up having him just abandon his wife and kid.

 

[Havok83]

Claremont wanting retire Cyclops with Maddie is a well known thing which Chris has talked about many times. I don't know who exactly over ruled him and decided to bring Scott back.

I'm glad Scott came back but Marvel obviously screwed up having him just abandon his wife and kid.

It was then editor in chief, Jim Shooter. Claremont was livid by what they were doing to his plots. Here's a direct quote from him in regards to what Marvel was about to do with X-factor when the idea was pitched

"The fact is, Ann did a smart thing. If I had actually gone in to see Shooter on Friday night, I would have quit. I was so pissed off. I couldn't believe what they did to Cyclops (Scott Summers). He was supposed to be a hero and they had him walking out on his wife and newborn child and not even thinking twice about it."

http://uncannyxmen.net/showarticle.asp?fldAuto=2849

Years prior, Shooter is the one that made CC change the ending to the DPS to kill Jean off and insisted that she remain dead, only to of course resurrect her years later, which angered CC. He tried to pitch the idea of Jean's sister Sara taking her place, but they didn't want to use that. I believe Shooter was ultimately fired in 1987 bc he exerted too much control over the stories and a lot of creators were unhappy with him

 

[chamber-music]

I've heard of Shooters reign of terror as editor.

 

[runawayboulder]

I've heard of Shooters reign of terror as editor.

Reign of terror might be a little bit too strong in describing it. He was demanding in terms of excellence. He stopped all the double dipping that was going on in Marvel's voucher program. He also found tardiness unacceptable. If he felt a writer was constantly late because of their workload, he'd take books away from them, even if it was taking money away from them because it was costing the company money. He tightened up a loose ship if anything. A lot of this alienated the veteran writers, so they bailed and went to DC.

 

[javi1024]

Reign of terror might be a little bit too strong in describing it. He was demanding in terms of excellence. He stopped all the double dipping that was going on in Marvel's voucher program. He also found tardiness unacceptable. If he felt a writer was constantly late because of their workload, he'd take books away from them, even if it was taking money away from them because it was costing the company money. He tightened up a loose ship if anything. A lot of this alienated the veteran writers, so they bailed and went to DC.

At this point that kinda sounds like a good thing. Look at the "continuity" of the X-books now.

 

[JewishHobbit]

No kidding. I read that just now and thought, "We need Jim Shooter back."

 

[venom892]

I've heard of Shooters reign of terror as editor.

If you really want insight on that and honestly how tense the Bullpen was most of the time, read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story. It mentions how disheartened Claremont was with Jean coming back and Cyclops being thrust back into action. Claremont was very protective of the X-men line and that situation really left him sour.

 

[Donnie Darko]

That is a great book. My wife got it for me last Christmas.

 

[runawayboulder]

At this point that kinda sounds like a good thing. Look at the "continuity" of the X-books now.

No kidding. I read that just now and thought, "We need Jim Shooter back."

Joe Quesada is basically the total opposite of Shooter. He caters to the creative side and gives them more freedom than he should.



http://lamerciepark.com/legacy/comics/spidey.html

^^^This is one of my favorite blogs of all time by Christopher Priest. He was formerly known as Jim Owsley and he was Shooter's #2 guy during that time. I've posted the link before, It's a great read for anyone that may have never seen it.

Shooter has his own blog as well where he's talked about all of the messes he inherited at Marvel when he first became EiC.

 

[Panthro]

I really hate what Bendis is doing with Jean and Beast. Now Hank has always been in love with her, because Jean can't have any male friends apparently. I hate what it does to her character and I've always seen Jean and Hank as really good friends. Adult Beast came across really creepy last issue...

I guess hairy men just can't resist Jean.

Claremont wanting retire Cyclops with Maddie is a well known thing which Chris has talked about many times. I don't know who exactly over ruled him and decided to bring Scott back.

I'm glad Scott came back but Marvel obviously screwed up having him just abandon his wife and kid.

Yeah that was dumb, but then again so was having Scott marry a lookalike of his dead girlfriend.

 

[runawayboulder]

Yeah that was dumb, but then again so was having Scott marry a lookalike of his dead girlfriend.

They handled it well when the other X-Men saw her for the first time. They all freaked out at her looks.

 

[blalex620]

Agree completely. It's been a while since I read classic X-Men but I don't recall any hints that Beast was in love with Jean. All the guys flirted with her of course, but considering Angel, Xavier and Scott were explicitly shown to be in love with her it frankly would have been a bit stupid if another central character was thrown into the mix.

And yeh, that scene with adult Beast thinking about teen Jeannie (who he knows is psychic!) was horrible and more than a little creepy.

I remember reading in one of the books before Marvel NOW that all the boys had a crush on Jean when she first came to the school. It was Scott who just caught her eye because of who he was. I remembered as I was writing this it was in one of the Prelude to Schism books when Xavier was talking to Scott and reminiscing about the team in the beginning. It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine Hank being secretly in love with her.