Superman Returns You know what, the biggest problem still was Jon Peters...

[ultimatefan]

Good points, but you have to remember that WB is a corporation. As such, they have intelligent minds at work behind their decisions. That's not to say they don't make frivolous decisions but there's definitely a lot more behind the $50 million spent on aborted projects.

Still they managed to make the new Superman movie a case for the history of development hell... Someday someone´s gonna have to write a book on this...

 

[boywonder13]

Actually I have this guy on my msn who toldme he's going 2 he's hunting down scripts, but in order for it to be good it will need scripts that are locked up in the WB Vault. Which is gonna be hard to crack. He's also looking for the Superman: THe New movie script which was the movie which would have started the Superboy actor from the tv series in the early 90s.

He writes for Hotdog, hisname is Simon Reynolds.

 

[gimmen64]

The biggest problem was PotC2, period. There's already a thread for this.

Yep.

 

[ultimatefan]

Peters was merely a producer and while he threw a monkey wrench in the works plenty of times it has no bearing on this particular film, guys like Alan Horn probably share as much blame if not more, for not only letting this thing fester but also for not keeping a tighter leash on Singer. Though in the end, this is really Singer, Harris, and Dougherty's debacle.

Peters put a tight leash on Kevin and we saw what the results would have been...

 

[DA Harvey Dent]

Still they managed to make the new Superman movie a case for the history of development hell... Someday someone´s gonna have to write a book on this...

Someone did - "tales from development hell" by david hughes. Its a good read and has info on the superman and batman projects.

 

[ultimatefan]

Someone did - "tales from development hell" by david hughes. Its a good read and has info on the superman and batman projects.

Sounds cool.

 

[Alonsovich]

Actually I have this guy on my msn who toldme he's going 2 he's hunting down scripts, but in order for it to be good it will need scripts that are locked up in the WB Vault. Which is gonna be hard to crack. He's also looking for the Superman: THe New movie script which was the movie which would have started the Superboy actor from the tv series in the early 90s.

He writes for Hotdog, hisname is Simon Reynolds.

I know someone who has the Superman: The New Movie script at BT. Simon e-mailed me some time ago for the Abrams 2nd draft which I read (I don't have it in any form). So he writes for Hotdog?

 

[Paradoxium]

I will be blunt.

Peters did not tell Singer that Donnor's Superman films should be the defacto source for the movie, to the point of delegating the primary source material down the list. For godsakes Peters hated Donnor's Superman. He thought he was too "pink".

Peters can never be excused for the delays and nutty ideas. But Singer cannot be excused for lacking the boldiness to restart the series. For not reinterpreting the source material into something cinematically fresh. For not developing a fresh plot. For not making use of the superior post-crisis Lex Luthor characterization. For overfocusing on Lois and her arc and compromising every other character.

For all the "for nots", its not like fans were whining about the negatives, they actually had suggestions that would work. For example, tell me seriously how many fans - prior to the release of the film - wanted a mad scientist and wig-wearing Luthor over the ruthless, calculating and businessman Luthor?

Watch the film a few more times. You will see this movie was basically a bunch of cool looking and expensive sequences and scenery pasted together with a little chick flick thrown on top. POTC has more character development.

Superman Returns will seem cool the first time but repeat viewings will weaken it. Superman has no arc, he is a reactionary character. People are more interested in heros who are proactive. Look at Batman and Spider-Man, both are proactive. These two are the most successful of their respective companies. Superman Returns was basically cinematic *********ion without a climax.

 

[KrypJonian]

It's a long story, I was at this bar and I got drunk and me and Singer "hooked" up if you know what I mean, I'm not gay, I was drunk. So yah I went to his house knocked him out and watched the completed movie like a month ago.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Best post I've read around here in a long time.

 

[ultimatefan]

I will be blunt.

Peters did not tell Singer that Donnor's Superman films should be the defacto source for the movie, to the point of delegating the primary source material down the list. For godsakes Peters hated Donnor's Superman. He thought he was too "pink".

Peters can never be excused for the delays and nutty ideas. But Singer cannot be excused for lacking the boldiness to restart the series. For not reinterpreting the source material into something cinematically fresh. For not developing a fresh plot. For not making use of the superior post-crisis Lex Luthor characterization. For overfocusing on Lois and her arc and compromising every other character.

For all the "for nots", its not like fans were whining about the negatives, they actually had suggestions that would work. For example, tell me seriously how many fans - prior to the release of the film - wanted a mad scientist and wig-wearing Luthor over the ruthless, calculating and businessman Luthor?

Watch the film a few more times. You will see this movie was basically a bunch of cool looking and expensive sequences and scenery pasted together with a little chick flick thrown on top. POTC has more character development.

Superman Returns will seem cool the first time but repeat viewings will weaken it. Superman has no arc, he is a reactionary character. People are more interested in heros who are proactive. Look at Batman and Spider-Man, both are proactive. These two are the most successful of their respective companies. Superman Returns was basically cinematic *********ion without a climax.

Not all fans think paying tribute to the Donner movies was a bad idea and not all fans think a restart was a good idea - I think it would have been pointless and a pretty safe receipe for disaster.

You wanna talk about source material, there have been many comics that toyed in different ways with ideas like Supes leaving Earth and having a son. We still get all the basic important facts - Supes came from Krypton, that exploded, he has all the traditional powers, he got them from the yellow sun, he´s vulnerable to Kryponite, there´s Daily Planet, Perry, Jimmy, Lois, etc. All superhero movies introduced new elements or cut off stuff from the comics, even the most beloved ones.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I think the best way to see who was to blame for such a late, half-assed Superman movie, is to use the I-Ching.

(tosses coins)

Definatly Kevin Smith.

WB pulled back suddenly because they were afraid of associating with such a new-comer to ... (everything?) That could be one of the reasons, anyway. In my opinion, Kevin Smith's wet ear-behinds was the cause for much delay.

 

[Paradoxium]

Lets strip away the entire need to adhere to the source material. Lets forget about Donnor and the comics.

Ok?

Superman Returns and he meets Lois with the son subplot and luthor's evil scheme. They were interwoven to create the climax. Luthor's plot indirectly exposed the identity of Jason and resolve the indifference between Superman and Lois.

Now a closer look.

Lois and "Clarks" dynamic was weak to begin with and had no resolution. I argue you didn’t even need Clark in the movie. There is no resolution for Richard over the fact he is not the biological father. There were no changes to Superman, he was the same sorry feeling brooding guy from beginning to end, he was probably more dour than Batman. How does Lois (at the end) being less angry develop Superman?

The entire film was about "feeling for them", feeling for the moments. Feeling for them means very little if there is no results. Just because Superman now knows he is the father of Jason, it doesn't mean he can do much about it. Feeling less lonely and sorry is not growth, taking action to change things is growth. I don't watch movies to be in touch with my emotions, I watch them to entertain me. The whole movie was about feeling without resolution, that’s why I called SR cinematic *********ion without a climax. I say cut the feeling and inject more plot.

I have said in my review, the premise of returning from a 5 year leave can still work in a new continuity. A restart does not obligate an origin. It would have resolved the plot holes created by the earlier films for SR. You could introduce newer and better ideas along the side.

For me, creative freedom over plot and characters supersedes homages and nostalgic feelings. Bryan is effectively painting himself into a corner by choice. Its been decades since the last film, this is no Batman and Robin to Batman Begins.

You can continually spin it anyway you wish, but it will not make you or WB any money. WB does not care about homages they want money. Money is their language. The mainstream audience's way of telling WB that they have no interest in the current film is by their wallets. At this point, who do you think WB will listen to? The people offering ideas to make them more money or why uncontrollable forces is causing them to lose money?

You can come up with all the excuses in the world, how POTC was a juggarnaut, how Superman is not relevant to people, how Jon Peters did so and so, how people are stupid and don't like "smart" films etc... But you have to own up to your mistakes. Otherwise you will keep repeating them.

Instead of blaming something or someone and spin Singer on a pedestal, we should give reasons for changes within their power. It's more productive. You ever notice the most popular and memorable debates at SHH are over who they should cast?

 

[Spawn187]

... For wasting so much time and so much money going in all the wrong directions with Superman over the years. You can complain about Superman Returns all you like, it´s still probably the most faithful of all attempts to resurrect the character over the years. What about a Superman script with the same tone of Adam West´s Batman show? What about a Superman that doesn´t fly or even wears a costume, has polar bears guarding the FOS and Brainiac has a gay robot sidekick? What about a black goth Superman suit? Sean Penn as Superman, Nic Cage as Superman? Beyonce as Lois? Ashton Kutcher as Superman? A movie where Krypton didn´t explode, Superman is part of some crappy new age prophecy, there´s a fifteen minute BS "Superman is dead" part and Lex reveals to be a Kryptonian? With all that was wasted with so many false starts and wrong producing, directing and writing voices over the years, WB could have been more focused from the start and released something much better right in the beginning or even at the prime of the superhero movie craze, for a more reasonable cost, and now the new Supes franchise would have been a juggernaut 300m-plus one. Oh, and not being arrogant and played chicken with an already estabished and loved franchise too...

You forgot the GIANT SPIDER.

 

[ultimatefan]

Lets strip away the entire need to adhere to the source material. Lets forget about Donnor and the comics.

Ok?

Superman Returns and he meets Lois with the son subplot and luthor's evil scheme. They were interwoven to create the climax. Luthor's plot indirectly exposed the identity of Jason and resolve the indifference between Superman and Lois.

Now a closer look.

Lois and "Clarks" dynamic was weak to begin with and had no resolution. I argue you didn’t even need Clark in the movie. There is no resolution for Richard over the fact he is not the biological father. There were no changes to Superman, he was the same sorry feeling brooding guy from beginning to end, he was probably more dour than Batman. How does Lois (at the end) being less angry develop Superman?

The entire film was about "feeling for them", feeling for the moments. Feeling for them means very little if there is no results. Just because Superman now knows he is the father of Jason, it doesn't mean he can do much about it. Feeling less lonely and sorry is not growth, taking action to change things is growth. I don't watch movies to be in touch with my emotions, I watch them to entertain me. The whole movie was about feeling without resolution, that’s why I called SR cinematic *********ion without a climax. I say cut the feeling and inject more plot.

I have said in my review, the premise of returning from a 5 year leave can still work in a new continuity. A restart does not obligate an origin. It would have resolved the plot holes created by the earlier films for SR. You could introduce newer and better ideas along the side.

For me, creative freedom over plot and characters supersedes homages and nostalgic feelings. Bryan is effectively painting himself into a corner by choice. Its been decades since the last film, this is no Batman and Robin to Batman Begins.

You can continually spin it anyway you wish, but it will not make you or WB any money. WB does not care about homages they want money. Money is their language. The mainstream audience's way of telling WB that they have no interest in the current film is by their wallets. At this point, who do you think WB will listen to? The people offering ideas to make them more money or why uncontrollable forces is causing them to lose money?

You can come up with all the excuses in the world, how POTC was a juggarnaut, how Superman is not relevant to people, how Jon Peters did so and so, how people are stupid and don't like "smart" films etc... But you have to own up to your mistakes. Otherwise you will keep repeating them.

Instead of blaming something or someone and spin Singer on a pedestal, we should give reasons for changes within their power. It's more productive. You ever notice the most popular and memorable debates at SHH are over who they should cast?

It just happens that many people here actually liked this movie and don´t share your views. The movie had a much smaller drop this weekend, so passed the juggernaut POTC2 initial hype, SR isn´t the universally hated movie its critics are trying to make it seem.

 

[The Guard]

The problem is not Jon Peters, or WB, or lack of interest, or any of this...the problem, is that Bryan Singer did something incredibly risky with the character and his world...and that people (read: fanboys) insist on judging Singer's version of Superman's universe...before the story is remotely complete, and the universe explored. It'd be like whining that Phoenix wasn't a part of the X-Men mythos because she didn't show up in X-MEN.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Lets strip away the entire need to adhere to the source material. Lets forget about Donnor and the comics.

Ok?

Superman Returns and he meets Lois with the son subplot and luthor's evil scheme. They were interwoven to create the climax. Luthor's plot indirectly exposed the identity of Jason and resolve the indifference between Superman and Lois.

Now a closer look.

Lois and "Clarks" dynamic was weak to begin with and had no resolution. I argue you didn’t even need Clark in the movie. There is no resolution for Richard over the fact he is not the biological father. There were no changes to Superman, he was the same sorry feeling brooding guy from beginning to end, he was probably more dour than Batman. How does Lois (at the end) being less angry develop Superman?

The entire film was about "feeling for them", feeling for the moments. Feeling for them means very little if there is no results. Just because Superman now knows he is the father of Jason, it doesn't mean he can do much about it. Feeling less lonely and sorry is not growth, taking action to change things is growth. I don't watch movies to be in touch with my emotions, I watch them to entertain me. The whole movie was about feeling without resolution, that’s why I called SR cinematic *********ion without a climax. I say cut the feeling and inject more plot.

I have said in my review, the premise of returning from a 5 year leave can still work in a new continuity. A restart does not obligate an origin. It would have resolved the plot holes created by the earlier films for SR. You could introduce newer and better ideas along the side.

For me, creative freedom over plot and characters supersedes homages and nostalgic feelings. Bryan is effectively painting himself into a corner by choice. Its been decades since the last film, this is no Batman and Robin to Batman Begins.

You can continually spin it anyway you wish, but it will not make you or WB any money. WB does not care about homages they want money. Money is their language. The mainstream audience's way of telling WB that they have no interest in the current film is by their wallets. At this point, who do you think WB will listen to? The people offering ideas to make them more money or why uncontrollable forces is causing them to lose money?

You can come up with all the excuses in the world, how POTC was a juggarnaut, how Superman is not relevant to people, how Jon Peters did so and so, how people are stupid and don't like "smart" films etc... But you have to own up to your mistakes. Otherwise you will keep repeating them.

Instead of blaming something or someone and spin Singer on a pedestal, we should give reasons for changes within their power. It's more productive. You ever notice the most popular and memorable debates at SHH are over who they should cast?

outstanding post man you should stick around more often. Like I said, the blame falls squarley on Singer though I think the guy at the top, Horn should catch some heat as well. If I'm a shareholder right now, I want to know WTF happened from those 2 mouths

 

[Super Kal]

sorry, but I dont blame the suit design on Peters... I blame Singer and Mingenbach.

 

[Paradoxium]

It just happens that many people here actually liked this movie and don´t share your views. The movie had a much smaller drop this weekend, so passed the juggernaut POTC2 initial hype, SR isn´t the universally hated movie its critics are trying to make it seem.

I know most critics loved it, I have seen the metacritic and rottentomatoes score. I know it’s not a critical bomb and critics are more favorable towards it than Pirates.

Who made more money?

I have no interest in seeing this fail, it affects other films including the Batman sequel. I like what the Batman franchise has going. The problems for me might be minor for you. Let me simplify what I was trying to say.

I assert plot and action is what gets more guys coming in. That's where the big money comes from as far as superhero films go. Characterizations and emotional arcs have it purposes. Balance the two and you have something even better. That should be the goal. The film does not succeed on that department and went overboard on emotional scenes. This alienated that important crowd. It’s not because of Jon Peter’s reckless management and nutty ideas. It’s that.

You might not share my opinion on why the film didn’t work and why it lost money. But do you think the shareholders will share yours? They are the ones who will influence the future, not me.

The problem is not Jon Peters, or WB, or lack of interest, or any of this...the problem, is that Bryan Singer did something incredibly risky with the character and his world...and that people (read: fanboys) insist on judging Singer's version of Superman's universe...before the story is remotely complete, and the universe explored. It'd be like whining that Phoenix wasn't a part of the X-Men mythos because she didn't show up in X-MEN.

You are absolutely right, I should not judge it until I see Singer's complete portrait is shown. I would love Singer to prove me wrong. Singularity wrote an excellent article on McG as well. It was similar to your post. We need to give him a chance, the benefit of doubt.

Well...the money people don't give a ****. They gave him only one chance. I invest money and I expect decent returns. That’s how they think. They are either going to cut loses or do something different. The shareholders will want immediate answers. Not why they should give him another chance and invest a chunk of their savings again. It sucks but hey, miracles happen. If you do not agree with this thinking, tell them to think otherwise.

outstanding post man you should stick around more often. Like I said, the blame falls squarley on Singer though I think the guy at the top, Horn should catch some heat as well. If I'm a shareholder right now, I want to know WTF happened from those 2 mouths

I doubt I will be back much. More off and on maybe. But I have my 'projects' and hopefully more travels down the road. I scheduled it - so that I have bit more time to post at SHH over these few days. You know how it was. Just owe it to myself to at least finish off or have something to say. Still remember the Project VOICE days.

It's too bad, Horn did contribute to Batman Begins.