2011/2012 NBA Thread: Greatness & Awesomeness

[Doc Samson]

Well, that was painful. First quarter was decent enough, things just got out of control from there, with some atrocious defense, in particular pick and roll D, which has been a Lakers problem since...oh I don't know 1999?

But I also highly doubt the most turnover prone team in the league will continue to take care of the ball so well. Only 4 TO's? Nah, that won't happen again...

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Well, that was painful. First quarter was decent enough, things just got out of control from there, with some atrocious defense, in particular pick and roll D, which has been a Lakers problem since...oh I don't know 1999?

But I also highly doubt the most turnover prone team in the league will continue to take care of the ball so well. Only 4 TO's? Nah, that won't happen again...

They also shot extremely well and Westbrook played well. You know when they're shooting 60%+(something like that, Westbrook is playing well, Perkins and Mohammed are making mid range jumpers, and they're setting a franchise low in turnovers it's not going to be your night.

 

[Doc Samson]

They also shot extremely well and Westbrook played well. You know when they're shooting 60%+(something like that, Westbrook is playing well, Perkins and Mohammed are making mid range jumpers, and they're setting a franchise low in turnovers it's not going to be your night.

Oh for sure, I was just watching Charles talking about Kobe checking Westbrook from the beginning, and while that worked a few years ago, I don't think he'd have enough left on the offensive end.

I actually think a zone wouldn't be a bad idea, I don't know why teams have that macho approach to playing man to man. Hell, zone is what allowed Dallas to win the championship last year, and the Celtics in '08.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

It's important for the Lakers to at least establish something in the second game. I'd be happy if OKC wins as long as it goes down to the last shot or last minute.

 

[Doc Samson]

Well, it can't get much worse...

 

[L.A.]

 

[The Apocalypse]

"We played okay." - Ron Artest

How can you hate that guy?

 

[Anubis]

Hate?

No.

Fear that he might come at you with a hatchet wearing a powdered wig and a tutu?

.....Very much so.

 

[Raiden]

Well, it can't get much worse...

I think Lakers just have to focus on taking one of two from OKC in the first two games, before going back to Staples and (hopefully) defend their turf. But the ugly truth is that Lakers is just older, slower, and has less depth than the Thunder, plus they have two 7' players who would occasionally take games off even in playoff. If Lakers lose this series, I hope it will be a wake-up call to the front office to do something about it, because OKC will only get better in the next few years.

 

[Docker2.0]

I don't know man. Harden is a free agent and I can see him getting a pay raise and a starting job somewhere else.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Harden won't be at OKC next season. They can't afford to pay Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all what they deserve and probably want.

Lakers need a better bench and better game plan.

 

[Poeman]

Dont be surprised if Harden gets cash money to go to Brooklyn

 

[stickboltman]

I don't know man. Harden is a free agent and I can see him getting a pay raise and a starting job somewhere else.

Harden won't be at OKC next season. They can't afford to pay Westbrook, Durant, and Harden all what they deserve and probably want.

Lakers need a better bench and better game plan.

Dont be surprised if Harden gets cash money to go to Brooklyn

Except Harden isn't a free agent next year. He isn't until 2014 (end of next season). I don't know how the Thunder will keep him then though.

Can not wait to see the Lakers topple over. Hopefully the Heat fall right behind them.

 

[runawayboulder]

Westbrook is free agent after this season. If they keep him, it will give them no flexibility under the cap to maintain a bench.

 

[L.A.]

Westbrook is free agent after this season. If they keep him, it will give them no flexibility under the cap to maintain a bench.

He signed an 80 million extension couple months ago

 

[Poeman]

Westbrook and Durant are locked up...The decision will be between Harden and Ibaka who are going to be on the market

Perkins is signed long term too

 

[Hound55]

Lakers 08-09 shooting stats

Odom - 0.492
Fisher - 0.424
Ariza - 0.460
Farmar - 0.391

Lakers 09-10 shooting stats

Odom - 0.463
Artest - 0.414
Brown - 0.427
Fisher - 0.380
Farmar - 0.435

Lakers 10-11 shooting stats

Odom - 0.530
Brown - 0.425
Artest - 0.397
Fisher - 0.389
Barnes - 0.470
Blake - 0.359

So there goes your first point that the Lakers always conveniently have "the worst shooters in the league" because that's not the case when looking at the stats.

Next the 10-11 stats show that many other Lakers(Odom, Brown, and Barnes in particular) managed to shoot particularly well with the shooting cancer that is Kobe Bryant while Blake was the worst at 0.359. So there goes your point that Kobe has changed Blake. Blake has been on the decline since his mediocre best season in Portland where he averaged 11 PPG(wow double digits) and had 5 APG.

So the notion that Kobe needs to spread the ball to over the hill role playing shooters that don't make shots and made up one of the worst scoring and shooting benches in the league is wrong.

Hoo, boy… Where to start, with trying to tidy up that mess...

First, you’re aiming at your own goalposts. I’m not arguing that the Lakers have the worst shooters. It’s a bulls*** excuse that Kobe fans make to pardon the fact that he plays like an ********. My comment that “the Lakers always seem to have the worst shooters” was pointing out that despite constant personnel changes that excuse never seems to go away and these same idiots use it as a reason for him to not give up the damn ball and let the offense flow like a normal player.

Second, you’re using FG%... when people make those same bulls*** excuses for him they’re generally talking 3 point percentage because that’s where the spotters are. To prevent the defence from collapsing on him.

Third, you just provided numbers that support my claim that Kobe has f***ed Blake’s game by freezing him off the ball and not allowing him to perform his best role as a floor general.

Fourth, you’ve just shown your own lack of understanding about the game by viewing Steve Blake’s game solely in point and assist totals which aren’t so much a measure of his own game as his ability to initiate the offence, playcall, play D and score when it’s on. At the Lakers he’s limited to is as a cold spot-up shooter off the ball and playing D… not his strengths, since he’s best used controlling the flow himself (which he got to do in Game 7 where Kobe played more within the flow of the game).

Interestingly enough, your figures also show that Ron Artest’s percentages have dropped off with every year he’s been a Laker…

 

[Scrandy Randy]

First, you’re aiming at your own goalposts. I’m not arguing that the Lakers have the worst shooters. It’s a bulls*** excuse that Kobe fans make to pardon the fact that he plays like an ********. My comment that “the Lakers always seem to have the worst shooters” was pointing out that despite constant personnel changes that excuse never seems to go away and these same idiots use it as a reason for him to not give up the damn ball and let the offense flow like a normal player.

No your argument is that people always say that the Lakers have the worst shooters to excuse Kobe. That's not the case in our Championship winning seasons we had plenty of good shooters and no one would say that to excuse Kobe.

Second, you’re using FG%... when people make those same bulls*** excuses for him they’re generally talking 3 point percentage because that’s where the spotters are. To prevent the defence from collapsing on him.

The 3PT % would show the same thing.

Third, you just provided numbers that support my claim that Kobe has f***ed Blake’s game by freezing him off the ball and not allowing him to perform his best role as a floor general.

No you can look at his stats and since his "best floor general" season at Portland his stats have been in constant decline. Just like anyone getting on in age in their 30s.

Fourth, you’ve just shown your own lack of understanding about the game by viewing Steve Blake’s game solely in point and assist totals which aren’t so much a measure of his own game as his ability to initiate the offence, playcall, play D and score when it’s on. At the Lakers he’s limited to is as a cold spot-up shooter off the ball and playing D… not his strengths, since he’s best used controlling the flow himself (which he got to do in Game 7 where Kobe played more within the flow of the game).

Typical excuse. Don't look at the stats the only actual quantifiable thing you can go on and instead talk about "intangibles". Of course you would, it gets you out of confronting the realization Blake has been in consistent decline and is a pretty **** player now.

Interestingly enough, your figures also show that Ron Artest’s percentages have dropped off with every year he’s been a Laker…

Pro sports players aren't like wine, they don't get better with age.

 

[Hound55]

Since you want to play this game...

If Kobe is such a ballhog, how is it that he lead the league in Usage Rate I believe 4 times, but D-Wade's done it just as many, and Jordan lead 8 times!? In fact, in terms of all time Usage Rate, he was behind Wade & Lebron (until recently with them joining forces), Iverson & Jordan.

If Kobe makes his teammates so horrible, how is it that he made Smush Parker respectable, but when he left the Lakers for the Heat (who had the worst record in the NBA at the time), he couldn't even make the team & was out of the league in a matter of months?

Before Gasol got to LA, he was an All-Star once, and never made an All NBA team. Since then he's been on the All NBA Third team twice and an All-Star every year except this one.

You say Blake was better before LA, but was Trevor Ariza better after he left? Where's Chris Mihm? Luke Walton? These guys were his "major contributors", and Kobe took them to the playoffs and 45 wins. Are you kidding me?

Because Lebron got the ball stuffed in his hands to an uncomfortable extent every year at the Cavs… Wade literally had SFA to work with for quite a few years and in Iverson and Jordan’s cases… They both WERE ballhogs too.

Difference is Jordan was a freak in terms of efficiency regardless of the fact he was a ballhog. It’s hard to make an argument against Jordan when he shoots a better percentage than most teams whilst putting up the shots he did and disrupting defences like he did… and he was more eager to make the pass than Kobe was (even if he would look off specific guys because he lacked faith in them).

It’s hard to argue when the guy was shooting over .525 in his prime… that efficiency is pretty much what justified it.

Kobe meanwhile we’re looking around .45 (sometimes more, sometimes less), that’s a big drop off. He also doesn’t create for others as much, particularly second pass assists… because the guy has little interest in passing if he doesn’t get a stat for it.

Gasol? Dude played in Memphis. That’s why he wasn’t making it. Grizzlies don’t make Allstar teams and they sure as hell don’t make All-NBA teams.

Luke Walton? I don’t know about “major contributor” but his best years were about 5 or so years ago. When was the last time he averaged 20 minutes a game for the Lakers? Hell, when was the last time he averaged 10 minutes a game? He was a system role player who got bounced out of his system. He’ll be gone from the league very soon, nothing surer.

Smush Parker – Well, in Parker’s case he was never going to be a good fit at the Heat for a start… They were a team who needed a legit point guard, they signed him instead on the cheap. As for why he disappeared so soon, I’m not sure how long Mister J has been a Heat fan for – or Darth – but hey might be able to help you out with that one. There was an incident involving a valet parker… By this point the Heat had already figured out that Parker wasn’t the kind of player they needed (a legit pg to run their offense as opposed to an undersized two guard who’d been playing on a team as a combo-guard spot-up shooter for the past few years – and hadn’t played his real position with any kind of relevant minutes since college over 5 years ago), shelved him and then cut their losses with him altogether. Before the Clippers (God bless those poor fools!) thought it might be a good idea to sling him a contract.

Funny thing is Parker is the kind of guy who’d just about be better off on the Lakers out of any team, since no one was ever going to play him as a two-guard due to his size… so the next closest thing for him was as a combo on a team where he wouldn’t be handling the ball much.

Where are you going to get to handle the ball less than next to Kobe?

Chris Mihm – As for Chris Mihm, I’d have happily had him at the Suns for the 50+ games he may have been good for them per season due to injuries. Guy would have been on the peripheral to be a top 10 centre when healthy and if he never had any injury issues he would have been in there rather comfortably.

He landed at the Cavs when he was drafted as injury insurance against Zydrunas Ilgauskas ****** feet and fell victim to the fact that he finally got healthy for them. They didn’t need two relatively soft, bigs with a quality short to mid-range game so they got rid of Mihm despite the fact that he was putting up nice enough numbers. They moved him for a grittier big to spell Zydrunas (understandably) in Tony Battie.

He adjusted fairly well, in a similarly sized role at Boston. Played efficient in limited (sub 20mpg) time, until the Cs dealt him for a piece of Gary Payton when the Lakers were looking to get something for their underwhelming acquisition of Gary Payton (a point guard who’s used to running an offence…) along with Chucky Atkins (since the Lakers wanted a shooter… familiar story… - oooh, and please, PLEASE ask me why Chucky Atkins isn’t on the team any more despite the fact that he was actually the kind of spot up shooter they were after…) and filler (Jumaine Jones) to cover the small forward they were giving up in Rick Fox (retiring, never had any intention of playing – deal in name only).

Mihm gave the Lakers a good few years, despite quite frequently getting scapegoated and belittled by Lakers fans. Continued to be an efficient option from short to mid range (as he’d always been) when actually given the ball, until injuries broke him down further.

He was busted up, knowing his injury status they dealt him for a conditional second round pick that’s probably due to be selected any day now… The Grizz took it in hope they could get him healthy again. He was too far gone and never played again. So I’m not really sure how he’s an example of either of our points… he was too busted up to produce after his time with the Lakers.

Pretty poor argument with these as your examples so far… A combo guard who I already said is what you really want rather than a legitimate point guard since Kobe eats ball and a guy who barring injuries was once a fringe guy when naming top ten centres. I mean one of them’s a guy I’d happily have had on my team… more than happily… and the other’s a guy who we briefly had but couldn’t make the team because of our depth in the backcourt.

I’ve said before your team doesn’t want a legit point guard, because they’re never allowed to do their job properly. And you further show that by naming Smush Parker as a guy who benefits from playing next to Kobe… a combo-guard who benefits from playing off the ball as a shooter and should in no way be in charge of running an offence. Hell, I’m just waiting for you to bring up Derek Fisher to really “show me”… Pfft…

 

[Hound55]

No your argument is that people always say that the Lakers have the worst shooters to excuse Kobe. That's not the case in our Championship winning seasons we had plenty of good shooters and no one would say that to excuse Kobe.

Heh, funny thing is that they have given that excuse for him to defend him from being a ball hog... For years. It's one of the few points that never changes with Kobe fanboy jack-offs...

The 3PT % would show the same thing.

That's not the point, the point is you did put up the wrong figures.

No you can look at his stats and since his "best floor general" season at Portland his stats have been in constant decline. Just like anyone getting on in age in their 30s.

No, they've been in constant decline ever since he had to play next to Kobe...

Funny how there wasn't a downward trend at any point when he was at Portland or even his one season with the Clippers (where there's usually a dip while players adjust to new personnel and systems - hell... Blake's numbers spiked at the Clippers)

Typical excuse. Don't look at the stats the only actual quantifiable thing you can go on and instead talk about "intangibles". Of course you would, it gets you out of confronting the realization Blake has been in consistent decline and is a pretty **** player now.

No, I'm saying the stats don't tell the whole story because of the specific role he plays. He's a floor general point guard, it's one of the few roles in the sport where it's not directly linked with individual statistical performance since his role entails making the entire offense run effectively, controlling tempo, and then making the most of his opportunities.

Which he did very effectively at Portland... as well as the Clippers where he was actually allowed to play his game properly.

That's not what the Lakers want though, they want a spot-up shooter who can put up (or even better thrive) in Kobe's ******** where he freezes the ball and cold stick the open look whenever it eventually shows itself.

That's not Blake's game though, never has been, he's used to having the offence flow through him and getting and giving a constant rhythm for the game... which he can still do when given the opportunity (as was the case in Game 7).

Pro sports players aren't like wine, they don't get better with age.

Funny how his percentages spiked in his last year at the Rockets just before he went there though...

But then he's a volume scorer, and getting frozen off the ball would affect him more as well.

 

[Scrandy Randy]

Heh, funny thing is that they have given that excuse for him to defend him from being a ball hog... For years. It's one of the few points that never changes with Kobe fanboy jack-offs...

How is that an excuse? It's a fact. In our Championship years we had good shooters and they made shots. Now we don't, so they don't get the ball. Pretty simple really.

That's not the point, the point is you did put up the wrong figures.

Ummm no. I'm pretty sure the point was Kobe makes the players around him bad. That's not the case.

No, they've been in constant decline ever since he had to play next to Kobe...

Funny how there wasn't a downward trend at any point when he was at Portland or even his one season with the Clippers (where there's usually a dip while players adjust to new personnel and systems - hell... Blake's numbers spiked at the Clippers)

All of his stats PPG in particular have declined since he went back to Portland.

No, I'm saying the stats don't tell the whole story because of the specific role he plays. He's a floor general point guard, it's one of the few roles in the sport where it's not directly linked with individual statistical performance since his role entails making the entire offense run effectively, controlling tempo, and then making the most of his opportunities.

Which he did very effectively at Portland... as well as the Clippers where he was actually allowed to play his game properly.

It's an excuse. Stats win games not "floor generals". There's no great players that didn't fill up a stat sheet.

Funny how his percentages spiked in his last year at the Rockets just before he went there though...

But then he's a volume scorer, and getting frozen off the ball would affect him more as well.

Except they didn't, just like Blake his MPG, PPG, and shooting percentages have all declined steadily in the past couple seasons just like every other player pushing 30.

 

[Trainwreck2100]

http://deadspin.com/5910612/

Former NBA Coach Plagiarizes Spurs Message Board For ESPN.com Column

John Carroll was the head coach at Duquesne for six years, and an assistant coach in the NBA for nine—including a 36-game stint as interim head coach for the Celtics in 2004. He's now sharing his expertise for Scouts Inc., which was purchased by ESPN in 2006. Since then Carroll's scouting reports have appeared regularly on ESPN.com, largely behind their Insider paywall.
Today Carroll took a look at the upcoming Spurs-Clippers series. (If you don't have Insider, the whole thing can be viewed here.) It's uncannily similar to a pair of posts made on the message board SpursTalk.com, all from user "Timvp." The posts were published Sunday and Monday, Carroll's column just before noon today.

Just sharing cause TimVP's a homie of mine. It's funny that the 4 letter got caught ripping off a message board post.

 

[Doc Samson]

Because Lebron got the ball stuffed in his hands to an uncomfortable extent every year at the Cavs… Wade literally had SFA to work with for quite a few years and in Iverson and Jordan’s cases… They both WERE ballhogs too.

Difference is Jordan was a freak in terms of efficiency regardless of the fact he was a ballhog. It’s hard to make an argument against Jordan when he shoots a better percentage than most teams whilst putting up the shots he did and disrupting defences like he did… and he was more eager to make the pass than Kobe was (even if he would look off specific guys because he lacked faith in them).

It’s hard to argue when the guy was shooting over .525 in his prime… that efficiency is pretty much what justified it.

Kobe meanwhile we’re looking around .45 (sometimes more, sometimes less), that’s a big drop off. He also doesn’t create for others as much, particularly second pass assists… because the guy has little interest in passing if he doesn’t get a stat for it.

Gasol? Dude played in Memphis. That’s why he wasn’t making it. Grizzlies don’t make Allstar teams and they sure as hell don’t make All-NBA teams.

Luke Walton? I don’t know about “major contributor” but his best years were about 5 or so years ago. When was the last time he averaged 20 minutes a game for the Lakers? Hell, when was the last time he averaged 10 minutes a game? He was a system role player who got bounced out of his system. He’ll be gone from the league very soon, nothing surer.

Smush Parker – Well, in Parker’s case he was never going to be a good fit at the Heat for a start… They were a team who needed a legit point guard, they signed him instead on the cheap. As for why he disappeared so soon, I’m not sure how long Mister J has been a Heat fan for – or Darth – but hey might be able to help you out with that one. There was an incident involving a valet parker… By this point the Heat had already figured out that Parker wasn’t the kind of player they needed (a legit pg to run their offense as opposed to an undersized two guard who’d been playing on a team as a combo-guard spot-up shooter for the past few years – and hadn’t played his real position with any kind of relevant minutes since college over 5 years ago), shelved him and then cut their losses with him altogether. Before the Clippers (God bless those poor fools!) thought it might be a good idea to sling him a contract.

Funny thing is Parker is the kind of guy who’d just about be better off on the Lakers out of any team, since no one was ever going to play him as a two-guard due to his size… so the next closest thing for him was as a combo on a team where he wouldn’t be handling the ball much.

Where are you going to get to handle the ball less than next to Kobe?

Chris Mihm – As for Chris Mihm, I’d have happily had him at the Suns for the 50+ games he may have been good for them per season due to injuries. Guy would have been on the peripheral to be a top 10 centre when healthy and if he never had any injury issues he would have been in there rather comfortably.

He landed at the Cavs when he was drafted as injury insurance against Zydrunas Ilgauskas ****** feet and fell victim to the fact that he finally got healthy for them. They didn’t need two relatively soft, bigs with a quality short to mid-range game so they got rid of Mihm despite the fact that he was putting up nice enough numbers. They moved him for a grittier big to spell Zydrunas (understandably) in Tony Battie.

He adjusted fairly well, in a similarly sized role at Boston. Played efficient in limited (sub 20mpg) time, until the Cs dealt him for a piece of Gary Payton when the Lakers were looking to get something for their underwhelming acquisition of Gary Payton (a point guard who’s used to running an offence…) along with Chucky Atkins (since the Lakers wanted a shooter… familiar story… - oooh, and please, PLEASE ask me why Chucky Atkins isn’t on the team any more despite the fact that he was actually the kind of spot up shooter they were after…) and filler (Jumaine Jones) to cover the small forward they were giving up in Rick Fox (retiring, never had any intention of playing – deal in name only).

Mihm gave the Lakers a good few years, despite quite frequently getting scapegoated and belittled by Lakers fans. Continued to be an efficient option from short to mid range (as he’d always been) when actually given the ball, until injuries broke him down further.

He was busted up, knowing his injury status they dealt him for a conditional second round pick that’s probably due to be selected any day now… The Grizz took it in hope they could get him healthy again. He was too far gone and never played again. So I’m not really sure how he’s an example of either of our points… he was too busted up to produce after his time with the Lakers.

Pretty poor argument with these as your examples so far… A combo guard who I already said is what you really want rather than a legitimate point guard since Kobe eats ball and a guy who barring injuries was once a fringe guy when naming top ten centres. I mean one of them’s a guy I’d happily have had on my team… more than happily… and the other’s a guy who we briefly had but couldn’t make the team because of our depth in the backcourt.

I’ve said before your team doesn’t want a legit point guard, because they’re never allowed to do their job properly. And you further show that by naming Smush Parker as a guy who benefits from playing next to Kobe… a combo-guard who benefits from playing off the ball as a shooter and should in no way be in charge of running an offence. Hell, I’m just waiting for you to bring up Derek Fisher to really “show me”… Pfft…

Interesting, but really, all I've read here are a bunch of excuses. "Combo guard?" Smush Parker is horrible, no matter what type of guard he is, and the fact is he had his only real impact in the NBA playing with Kobe. He was averaging double digit points, he had to get the ball at some point to do that. Chris Mihm was injured, sure, but he was also hurt plenty with the Lakers, I don't see your point. Luke Walton, the same deal. And Kobe took these rag tag group of misfits to 45 wins, in the Western Conference, when it was stacked!

Gasol being in Memphis was his perfect opportunity to showcase himself on a bottom feeder, Kevin Love's made a career of it so far, and certainly, Minnesota is no LA.

As far as efficiency, at least in Jordan's case, he played the position much more like a Forward than a Guard anyway. Part of the reason that Trailblazers 3 pt barrage is so memorable is because for him it was rare. He didn't have much range and admitted himself he was reluctant to fall in love with long range jumpers. So in his youth he was consistently in the paint, and after age and attrition, on the low block with the fadeaway and at the elbow with his jumper. When you factor in his 3 pt % along with his FG % & FT % (the only true indicator of offensive efficiency), his efficiency isn't much higher than Kobe's at all. And considering Kobe shot a few thousand more 3's than MJ, its damn near a miracle it's as close as it is.

My question for people like you is, why has Kobe, the ultimate ball hogging, teammate destroying, offensive stopper won more than anyone else in this generation? And before you give me the Shaq nonsense, if you do your homework you'll see they averaged virtually the same amount of points from 00-04, and during the Western Conference Finals where the real NBA champion was crowned, Kobe routinely lead the way in points and assists (yes, assists). After that he gets away from Shaq, gets robbed a few MVPs, gets Gasol and does it again? Totally different team, and he gets them to three straight Finals again. I mean, is it dumb luck? Is it magic? Is it an alternate reality, what's the deal?

 

[Doc Samson]

I hope Lebron gets ready, the media's about to have a field day with those missed FT's

 

[runawayboulder]

I had a feeling Indiana was gonna steal one in this series and they did. I'm curious to see how the Heat bounce back in G3. A lot of craziness is going to be made about this one from the free throws to no Chris Bosh.