2011/2012 NBA Thread: Where Weather Happens

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Kind of like Kobe does when he gets in those "me first" modes. I can't believe some people just refuse to see Kobe for what he is. How can game 4 possibly be Gasol's fault when Kobe took most of the shots in the 4th?! :huh:
He never blamed Gasol for the 4th or for losing the game.
 
Except we were. At least I was in the post you decided to reply to.
...and Docker, who you quoted, was talking about why Bynum got frozen out to only take 4 shots in the entire second half after the damage he caused when used early on.

Or do you normally quote people and then just talk about something else?

Now if we're talking about just regular game here isn't this exactly what you preach against when it fits your argument? That everyone needs to work in a system and in a "rhythm" and not disrupt anyone's game. Giving the ball to Bynum every possession would have disrupted everyone's "rhythm" as you say yourself.
First, there's a lot of ground in between "going to Bynum on every possession" and giving him 4 shots for an entire half after he was playing hot early...

Second, it's not a low percentage play to go to a big man down low in a mis-match where he's clearly coming out on top, and getting kept in single coverage... Keep going to him and make the defence adjust, plus teammates still get involved with feeding the post and moving off of the shrinking defence. It's not the same as a perimeter player freezing the ball out on the wing all the time. The ball also comes back out of the post more as defences shrink than it gets moved around when it's in Kobe's hands.

I'm not preaching some kind of 60s strict motion offence, I'm just against dickholes freezing out their teammates and then b****ing them out when they can't "step up" after they've been made to play cold for most of the game.
 
Kind of like Kobe does when he gets in those "me first" modes. I can't believe some people just refuse to see Kobe for what he is. How can game 4 possibly be Gasol's fault when Kobe took most of the shots in the 4th?! :huh:
Not as bad as the fans (and Kobe) blaming Artest for giving the ball to an open teammate instead of forcing a pass to a covered Kobe at the end of game 2...
 
...and Docker, who you quoted, was talking about why Bynum got frozen out to only take 4 shots in the entire second half after the damage he caused when used early on.

Or do you normally quote people and then just talk about something else?


First, there's a lot of ground in between "going to Bynum on every possession" and giving him 4 shots for an entire half after he was playing hot early...

Second, it's not a low percentage play to go to a big man down low in a mis-match where he's clearly coming out on top, and getting kept in single coverage... Keep going to him and make the defence adjust, plus teammates still get involved with feeding the post and moving off of the shrinking defence. It's not the same as a perimeter player freezing the ball out on the wing all the time. The ball also comes back out of the post more as defences shrink than it gets moved around when it's in Kobe's hands.

I'm not preaching some kind of 60s strict motion offence, I'm just against dickholes freezing out their teammates and then b****ing them out when they can't "step up" after they've been made to play cold for most of the game.
So it's solely Kobe's fault Bynum didn't see the ball enough in the second?
 
No shame in losing to the eventual champions spurs. I really hope Duncan gets his fifth ring. That guy plays the right way. Alwaysbeenoneof my favoriteplayers. I hope clippers look at this seriesand see what it takes to become a great team. We have a bright future but still have alot to learn. Griffin must continueto work on his free throws and jump shot. Jordan must continue to learn the game and become a better defender. And wow Eric bledsoe! The next Russell westbrook! Can't wait for next season to start!
 
No shame in losing to the eventual champions spurs. I really hope Duncan gets his fifth ring. That guy plays the right way. Alwaysbeenoneof my favoriteplayers. I hope clippers look at this seriesand see what it takes to become a great team. We have a bright future but still have alot to learn. Griffin must continueto work on his free throws and jump shot. Jordan must continue to learn the game and become a better defender. And wow Eric bledsoe! The next Russell westbrook! Can't wait for next season to start!

Isn't it a little early to declare Bledsoe as the next Westbrook? :dry:
 
So it's solely Kobe's fault Bynum didn't see the ball enough in the second?
Where did I say that?

Kobe does enough real prick behaviour that I don't have to create my own fictional events...
 
Isn't it a little early to declare Bledsoe as the next Westbrook? :dry:
He has that kind of potential. I think he can even better because he does have point guard vision unlike westbrook
 
Just like his 4 assists and no turnovers would suggest...

I love how Kobe fans make the "but his teammates would suck in [enter capacity here]" excuse for him, even when they were playing well prior to him freezing them off the ball...

And incidentally, if the Lakers really DO play through Pau Gasol in the high post, Doc... If that really is their game plan. Then they're pretty s***house at actually executing it... Because somehow their offence seems to just dissolve into one guy isolating the ball out on the wing an awful lot...

Funny how it always seems to be the same guy, too...

Hound, where do we begin?

Oh and before I get into this, the endless stream of hatred, unadulterated criticism and just general weirdness in relation to a 5 time champion/future HOF never ceases to amaze and disgust me. But I digress...

1) Bynum usually gets double teamed by opposing defenses, and usually, turns the ball over or forces up a terrible shot (I know, Kobe is the only one in history to force shots, but trust me, it happens)

With the Thunder, no they don't double him, and in the first half when they play straight up, he gets the rock. In the second half of almost every game, they start to front him with Perkins, with Ibaka behind him and the guards playing the passing lanes. It's a turnover waiting to happen if you try and telegraph a pass to him in that situation. If they reverse the ball, by this time the shot clock is on it's way down, and guess what happens at least 7-10 times a game. Somebody just chucks the ball to Kobe with about 5 seconds on the clock for a bailout. And The Mamba will oblige, no doubt.

2) Yes, Gasol does touch the ball just as much if not more so than anyone else on the team, including Kobe. This is Mike Brown's system, he's been on record as saying he encouraged Gasol to not only be more of a facilitator, but to also hang on the perimeter and hoist 3's whenever available:

Lakers coach Mike Brown said Gasol has "a green light to shoot the 3," and added, "as you could tell, guys trust him [shooting it],"
http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/25894/the-mcten-gasols-dagger-3-jolts-jazz

So this mentality from Gasol has just as much to do with the system as it does his own natural inclination to defer. This is what Mike Brown envisioned, him out of the post in favor of Bynum and Kobe, which is why Bynum became an All-Star in the first place. How this is Kobe's fault is beyond me.

But the main point is that Gasol certainly lost that game 4 just as much as Kobe lost game 2. I didn't see anyone rushing to Kobe's defense for those turnovers, why is their any defense for Gasol? Especially considering in Gasol's case, the game was tied.

3) Using your logic, I also want to know why Lebron's shooters haven't been able to hit the broadside of a barn this postseason? Lebron passes to everyone, almost to a fault, so these guys don't have the excuse that they're being "frozen out" and yet, they're still missing consistently, why?

I'll tell you why, because passing the ball to someone wide open is only the right play when it goes in! The most overrated stat in Basketball is the assist, and the connotations associated with it. These are professional players, they made it to the NBA because of their ability to shoot. They aren't being "made any better" by getting the ball, they're just afforded easier opportunities to do what they do best.

It has nothing to do with their mechanics, their release, rotation, nothing that has anything to do with actually making the shot. So Steve Blake isn't suffering because of playing with Kobe, he's suffering because he's been missing, period. Throughout the season he's gotten the ball plenty, he IS the PG after all, and usually did nothing with it. A running theme. So when it's crunch time and things are on the line, no, Bryant isn't going to be super excited about Steve Blake standing by the arc, whether he's wide open or not. If he needs 10 shots in order to be "in rhythm" then that really means he's just not that good of a spot up shooter. Just like if a Big Man needs a certain amount of touches to feel "engaged" to play defense and rebound, chances are, he's not that great. I guarantee you OKC isn't running plays for Ibaka or Sefolosha, and they still play hard and contribute. It's called professionalism.

I just hate to hear about being cold, or out of rhythm, because by extension, this should apply to Kobe too. He should be out of rhythm if he continually passes to everyone else, but I guess it's ok to have your best player in a funk huh? Perhaps Lebron doesn't close games well because he spends too much time deferring and when it's crunch time, he's out of rhythm too. He doesn't get that excuse though, why should anyone else?
 
What happened to Sessions?
What do you mean? He has regressed in these Playoffs but I didn't expect a fantastic Playoff outing for him and it only got worse when the two guards he and Blake have seen the most of this post season are Ty Lawson and Russell Westbrook. Two extremely explosive guards that can get past both Sessions and Blake whenever they want.

I still think we'll need another PG that's better then Sessions but he's a pretty good stop gap and we'll see how or if he improves next season. There was really no negative in acquiring him because he'll just move to the backup role if we do acquire another better player.
 
Lakers are so done man...Gasol gets traded this offseason too...Dont understand what their beef is with him. He plays hard out there I think.
 
I don't think he just fits with that offense.
 
What do you mean? He has regressed in these Playoffs but I didn't expect a fantastic Playoff outing for him and it only got worse when the two guards he and Blake have seen the most of this post season are Ty Lawson and Russell Westbrook. Two extremely explosive guards that can get past both Sessions and Blake whenever they want.

I still think we'll need another PG that's better then Sessions but he's a pretty good stop gap and we'll see how or if he improves next season. There was really no negative in acquiring him because he'll just move to the backup role if we do acquire another better player.
No pg you bring in with Kobe is going to work. Even if you got CP3, he and Kobe would have clashed because once Kobe gets that psycho look in his eyes, he's shooting even if God tells him not to. The man is just that stubborn!

Lakers are so done man...Gasol gets traded this offseason too...Dont understand what their beef is with him. He plays hard out there I think.
Doesn't matter who you bring in, Kobe isn't taking a backseat to anyone and the reason the Howard trade didn't go down because Kobe told him he'd be the 3rd option. If Melo did go to LA last season, can you imagine the shot attempts between those 2. They'd break the record!
 
They want Amare?

Amare for Gasol, lets go!
 
No pg you bring in with Kobe is going to work. Even if you got CP3, he and Kobe would have clashed because once Kobe gets that psycho look in his eyes, he's shooting even if God tells him not to. The man is just that stubborn!
Simply not true. I'm more then 100% positive Kobe would have been willing to give CP3 a shot at closing a game. He's a known closer. No one else on this current Lakers team is a closer, so none of them see the ball late. I know you'll whine and say "Well we don't know if anyone else is a closer because Kobe hogs it all the time!", if they want to get the ball late on say something.
 
No pg you bring in with Kobe is going to work. Even if you got CP3, he and Kobe would have clashed because once Kobe gets that psycho look in his eyes, he's shooting even if God tells him not to. The man is just that stubborn!
dp.
 
I don't think he just fits with that offense.

Personally, I think Gasol is still more comfortable with the Triangle offense than the new system that Mike Brown set up. However, that is no excuse for him being so passive in this series. He needs to be more aggressive with the ball, and not just looking to pass most of the time.
 
Looks like Dwight finally got his wish...
 
i wonder if it went like this "otis we need you to fire Stan Van Gundy" otis does this "good job Otis, now you're fired too."
 
Otis should have definitely been fired. I'm not so sure about Van Jeremy, but it was all over when he went public with Dwight wanting him out. I doubt he cares. He'll get another job quick, if he wants it.

This is going to be funny when they trade Howard.
 
Otis should have definitely been fired. I'm not so sure about Van Jeremy, but it was all over when he went public with Dwight wanting him out. I doubt he cares. He'll get another job quick, if he wants it.

This is going to be funny when they trade Howard.

I'm not surprised about Van Gundy's firing, since Howard is coming back next season, and after his admission that Howard wants him to be fired, the writing's pretty much on the wall for him unless Magic would trade Superman before the the start of the season. He's a good coach, so it's just a matter of time before he gets a new job anyway. The biggest loser is Orlando Magic, because they've lost their GM and coach, and there's no guarantee that Howard will sign a long-term contract anyway. They may end up losing everyone.
 
Oh and before I get into this, the endless stream of hatred, unadulterated criticism and just general weirdness in relation to a 5 time champion/future HOF never ceases to amaze and disgust me. But I digress...
3 of which he won, slowing down the most dominant player of his generation...
1) Bynum usually gets double teamed by opposing defenses, and usually, turns the ball over or forces up a terrible shot (I know, Kobe is the only one in history to force shots, but trust me, it happens)
The key word here is "usually". Didn't happen. Didn't even get a chance to happen.
With the Thunder, no they don't double him, and in the first half when they play straight up, he gets the rock. In the second half of almost every game, they start to front him with Perkins, with Ibaka behind him and the guards playing the passing lanes. It's a turnover waiting to happen if you try and telegraph a pass to him in that situation. If they reverse the ball, by this time the shot clock is on it's way down, and guess what happens at least 7-10 times a game. Somebody just chucks the ball to Kobe with about 5 seconds on the clock for a bailout. And The Mamba will oblige, no doubt.
Or you could go to him via a high-low, and get Gasol more into the game as well... Which granted, isn't going to happen around the middle of the 2nd when Bynum is on but spelling Gasol... But what's the excuse the rest of the time? When they could actually go to that as a serious route... Especially, when that's supposedly a major component of Brown's "system" which the Lakers as an entire team follow and a certain player never deviates from and does his own thing...

2) Yes, Gasol does touch the ball just as much if not more so than anyone else on the team, including Kobe.
1. He should, the guy's a facilitator.
2. I'm not even sure that he actually does... And he certainly doesn't when Kobe goes on one of his f***ed up solo spurts from seemingly nowhere.
This is Mike Brown's system, he's been on record as saying he encouraged Gasol to not only be more of a facilitator, but to also hang on the perimeter and hoist 3's whenever available:

Lakers coach Mike Brown said Gasol has "a green light to shoot the 3," and added, "as you could tell, guys trust him [shooting it],"
http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/25894/the-mcten-gasols-dagger-3-jolts-jazz
He should be more of a facilitator... Honestly, it's still not happening enough. Although personally I'd have him playing a little closer in around 15-20... Working high-lows with Bynum and flashing Kobe, and not have him step outside except for screen work and the occasional pick and pop.

Too much though that system isn't in place and you'll see Kobe clear out on the wing though.
So this mentality from Gasol has just as much to do with the system as it does his own natural inclination to defer. This is what Mike Brown envisioned, him out of the post in favor of Bynum and Kobe, which is why Bynum became an All-Star in the first place. How this is Kobe's fault is beyond me.
How am I blaming Bynum being an All-Star on Kobe?
But the main point is that Gasol certainly lost that game 4 just as much as Kobe lost game 2. I didn't see anyone rushing to Kobe's defense for those turnovers, why is their any defense for Gasol? Especially considering in Gasol's case, the game was tied.
Well your main point is dumb as dogs***.

Gasol made a single key turnover on an albeit dumb move looking to kick the ball out. Game 2, the last 7 plays which finished through Kobe he went 0-5 and had two of those turnovers. To attempt to apply equal blame on Gasol's singular error as Kobe's continued errors is flawed on what should be a basic and clear level to anybody capable of thinking of the matter objectively.
3) Using your logic, I also want to know why Lebron's shooters haven't been able to hit the broadside of a barn this postseason? Lebron passes to everyone, almost to a fault, so these guys don't have the excuse that they're being "frozen out" and yet, they're still missing consistently, why?
The Heat don't have a whole lot of ball movement or offensive structure to their game either... It's why they play best when they can get out in transition... Half court they generally stand around and watch while Lebron or Wade try to make things happen.

Guys like Mike Miller and Mario Chalmers have gradually gotten used to playing under that system, but shooting cold is... as I've said before... not an easy thing to do.

And that has hurt Shane Battier and his numbers this season, because he's accustomed to playing in systems which see legitimate ball movement as well.
I'll tell you why, because passing the ball to someone wide open is only the right play when it goes in! The most overrated stat in Basketball is the assist, and the connotations associated with it. These are professional players, they made it to the NBA because of their ability to shoot. They aren't being "made any better" by getting the ball, they're just afforded easier opportunities to do what they do best.
Wow... A Kobe fan who thinks passing is overrated... That's something new.

And they're not "getting easier opportunities" because it was a general statement with no weight as to the kind of possessions they're getting... They're "getting more opportunities" because, funnily enough you can't shoot the ball when you don't have it. But even then the quality of those opportunities are not being addressed at all in the equation.

I agree with the comment regarding the assist being an overrated stat, though for different reason, particularly in regards to it's ability to determine ball hogs.
It has nothing to do with their mechanics, their release, rotation, nothing that has anything to do with actually making the shot. So Steve Blake isn't suffering because of playing with Kobe, he's suffering because he's been missing, period. Throughout the season he's gotten the ball plenty, he IS the PG after all, and usually did nothing with it. A running theme. So when it's crunch time and things are on the line, no, Bryant isn't going to be super excited about Steve Blake standing by the arc, whether he's wide open or not. If he needs 10 shots in order to be "in rhythm" then that really means he's just not that good of a spot up shooter. Just like if a Big Man needs a certain amount of touches to feel "engaged" to play defense and rebound, chances are, he's not that great. I guarantee you OKC isn't running plays for Ibaka or Sefolosha, and they still play hard and contribute. It's called professionalism.
He doesn't need 10 shots to be effective... Just to have the ball go through him in the offense and to actually play his role... since, as you yourself said, he IS the point guard.

Funny how professionalism doesn't run the other way when it comes to throwing teammates under the bus or freezing them out of the offence.

While guys SHOULD continue to play hard regardless of how much ball they see, people still tend to work harder when they actually get to play a part of the offence...

There's a reason for the maxim of rewarding the bigs when they run the floor, and it doesn't just stop at transition. When guys know that they're going get to be a part of the action they work harder. It's just the way things are. Same thing applies in life, people who know they have no chance of promotion in business will try to skate by on the bare minimum while guys who know there's a real chance of advancement and acknowledgement will work harder.
I just hate to hear about being cold, or out of rhythm, because by extension, this should apply to Kobe too. He should be out of rhythm if he continually passes to everyone else, but I guess it's ok to have your best player in a funk huh? Perhaps Lebron doesn't close games well because he spends too much time deferring and when it's crunch time, he's out of rhythm too. He doesn't get that excuse though, why should anyone else?
It does apply to Kobe too... And did particularly when he went through his ******* over-passing phase purely to prove a point some years back. But generally doesn't apply because he seldom let's himself go extended periods without taking shots.

Incidentally, the idea that Kobe closes games well and Lebron doesn't isn't statistically supported... You Kobe stat-monkeys know that, right?

PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'd%Ast'dBestWorstKobe3177690.412581850.314690.21846%39%LeBron3337140.466742310.320790.23755%42%

Incidentally, I'll put my favourite two clutch guys up there as well...

Melo1934470.43223720.319840.43552%42%
CP31874300.43523730.315220.11850%37%

Really, when ESPN and other dolts say "Kobe is the best clutch shooter in the NBA", it's akin to claiming Jason Kidd is one of the best three point shooters in NBA history purely because he's hit the third most ever.

Those numbers were Clutch since 2006, so I guess it doesn't really include Playoff ball where the stakes really rise... So Maybe we'll see if we can dig up the Playoff numbers...


Final 24 Sec (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe6210.286180.12510.167LeBron5120.417130.33310.200

Or...

Final Minute (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe10310.3232100.20020.200LeBron10200.500130.33310.100

Or...

"Clutch" (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe812030.39911410.268120.148LeBron701540.45517480.354100.143

Take your pick...
 
I'll try and repost the tables since they came up in the text box but not in the actual post.

PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'd%Ast'dBestWorstKobe3177690.412581850.314690.21846%39%LeBron3337140.466742310.320790.23755%42%


Player FG FGA FG% 3PM 3PA 3P% Ast'd Ast'd % Best Worst
Kobe 317 769 0.412 58 185 .314 69 0.218 46% 39%
LeBron 333 714 0.466 74 231 .320 79 0.237 55% 42%

Incidentally, I'll put my favourite two clutch guys up there as well...

Melo1934470.43223720.319840.43552%42%
CP31874300.43523730.315220.11850%37%


Can't be arsed re-doing that...

Really, when ESPN and other dolts say "Kobe is the best clutch shooter in the NBA", it's akin to claiming Jason Kidd is one of the best three point shooters in NBA history purely because he's hit the third most ever.

Those numbers were Clutch since 2006, so I guess it doesn't really include Playoff ball where the stakes really rise... So Maybe we'll see if we can dig up the Playoff numbers...


Final 24 Sec (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe6210.286180.12510.167LeBron5120.417130.33310.200


Kobe 6 21 0.286 1 8 0.125 1 0.167
LeBron 5 12 0.417 1 3 0.333 1 0.200

Or...

Final Minute (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe10310.3232100.20020.200LeBron10200.500130.33310.100

Or...

Kobe 10 31 0.323 2 10 0.2 2 0.2
LeBron 10 20 0.5 1 3 0.33 1 0.1

"Clutch" (Playoffs since 2000)
PlayerFGFGAFG%3PM3PA3P%Ast'dAst'dKobe812030.39911410.268120.148LeBron701540.45517480.354100.143

Take your pick...

Kobe 81 203 0.399 11 41 0.268 12 0.148
Lebron 70 154 0.455 17 48 0.354 10 0.143
 
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