Justice League A Defense of Warners

[random_havoc]

WB have made a lot of mistakes along the way so far in their DCEU.

I think fundamentally, these boil down to one thing : greed.

They've seen the box office Marvel has been making, but were too hesitant for too long in building their own universe. Thus when they eventually got round to it - via MOS in 2013 (with Marvel already ahead by 5yrs and 7 films) they fast-tracked the whole thing to Batman and Superman facing off, Superman's death and the formation of the Justice League. These should have been major milestones in the DC universe, but instead it feels like they're only starting out and have already peaked (if you can call it peaking!).

Marvel's approach has been shown to be the right one. Build the characters individually, let the films shine on their own, then assemble them - no pun intended. By that stage, we know the characters, we care about the characters, and we're invested in the characters.

By the time Avengers : Infinity War comes out, Marvel will have surpassed 18 films. We know there are going to be deaths in that film, and those deaths will matter and resonate because we have followed these characters along their long journey to this point.

WB tried to reach this point much sooner, to cash in on the superhero movie genre before it implodes, and that lack of patience has directly affected the quality of their output and their characterisation of DC's greatest heroes.

I agree that they tried to rush out of greed, but I also think that if they'd had a skilled enough mastermind over it and directors working in sync under that person it still could have been done really well. But they were morons and chose Snyder, and for that they deserve every million they lose on JL and then some.

The problem is now even though they've finally gotten rid of him and will hopefully have somebody better in charge (Whedon if they had any brains), they've blown all their good will and it will make it twice as hard for them to have successes further on with these characters.

 

[metaphysician]

Thanks for the stats, I've seen them, but I meant your take. How does a film that merits so much discussion, even 4+ years later, rate as "average"? Do you talk about the average hamburger you ate at a diner every Christmas, or do you forget about it and enthuse about the much better hamburger you enjoyed at a steakhouse? You honestly think MoS is merely "average"? To me, it's clearly not.

Well, in a sense, I agree with you. I don't think Man of Steel was average.

I think Man of Steel was *terrible*. It just was terrible primarily in the manner of characterization and narrative theme, while it held together adequately in terms of functionality as a movie. Thus its better reviews than BvS, which was also poorly constructed.

And *that* is why people still talk about it: not because its good, but because they passionately hate what it did to the character. This is not really a good thing.

 

[Mysteryman]

Some good points there.

Indeed.
Good video.

 

[Consona]

F*******************k. Read this before you defend WB:

https://screenrant.com/justice-league-darker-test-screen-snyder-cut/

There’s also a number of extended scenes that flesh out backstory for The Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman – including a significant amount of Atlantis worldbuilding – and tie back to the events of Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, including references to the Knightmare sequence and the incorporation of The Codex in Superman’s resurrection (as we predicted prior to the movie’s release). Batman is also remorseful over his darker days and treatment of Superman, behaving in a much less jokey way, even going on a suicide mission at the end, believing he needs to sacrifice himself to atone for becoming a murderer and trying to kill the Man of Steel.

I'm pissed beyond words.

 

[elgaz]

I agree that they tried to rush out of greed, but I also think that if they'd had a skilled enough mastermind over it and directors working in sync under that person it still could have been done really well. But they were morons and chose Snyder, and for that they deserve every million they lose on JL and then some.

The problem is now even though they've finally gotten rid of him and will hopefully have somebody better in charge (Whedon if they had any brains), they've blown all their good will and it will make it twice as hard for them to have successes further on with these characters.

We probably differ in opinion here a little, as I thought Snyder did a sterling job with MOS and I'm one of the few who enjoyed BvS. I was trying to keep the bigger picture in mind; I had no doubt we would eventually get the Superman we know and love, and possibly even a less manic Lex, but to get there we had to go through the story arcs of those two films.

With that said, I haven't enjoyed all his films and he's had some duffers. So yes, they could probably have went with a more skilled Director but I still feel studio intervention and micro-managing of the whole process would have led us to a similar place where we are now regardless.

The whole saga of the DCEU seems amateur at best. They rush out BvS, it got mauled, they panicked, edited and cut JL until it was a shadow of what it should have been, and are no doubt now panicking again. As I said previously, Marvel have gone for the long game and there's certainly been no evident signs of panic on their parts; with enough solo films under their belt and enough universe building (which WB haven't done), that allows them the odd clinker and is a safety buffer of sorts so that the big budget films - Avengers Infinity War - don't suffer from previous failures.

I wouldn't overestimate the goodwill angle. Audiences can be cruel, but also very forgiving; we've had some pretty piss poor Batman and Spiderman films over the years, but each franchise was resurrected and brought back to health. With a skilled filmmaker and a couple of years gap, all it takes is a fantastic trailer to get people excited again.

 

[elgaz]

Well a couple things. All this is after the fact. WB originally wanted to do JL Mortal, but the writer's strike happened and that project died. By the time IM came out and the concept of a shared uni was at hand, they're already knee deep with TDK, and Nolan specifically he did not want his Batman to become a part of a shared universe with metahumans. So their hands were pretty much tied for the moment. If they just had a Bat solo and MoS2 before BvS,
the entire narrative of this would be different. It really was based on just a few boneheaded decisions after MoS. You really can't fault WB for making MoS the way they did, especially with Nolan's blessing, but everything afterwards is a big cluster****.
Again, that is after the fact. In a parallel universe where JL Mortal actually got made, that might've been the "right approach", and the entire landscape of Hollywood CBMs would've been different.

I get all that, but when Iron Man came out in 2008 WB could still have been laying the groundwork for Flash, Wonder Woman, Superman, Green Lantern and many more - Batman could have came later once Nolan's trilogy was complete. They still seemed to be slow on the uptake and were adopting a 'wait and see' approach, which has now cost them dearly.

They really needed someone single-minded, patient and skilled - like Feige - spearheading things from day 1.

 

[StormC]

Producers of Kevin Feige quality don't just fall out of the sky.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I read through an article this morning that talked about some of the things that were supposedly cut from the movie. Perhaps these aspects would have improved it, but most likely, it would have resulted in JL just being a dour, lifeless mess like BvS was.

For example, supposedly there was a scene of Cyborg getting angry that his father missed his football game, which leads to him crashing his car, killing his mother and leaving him half dead. (Because apparently, in this universe, a prerequisite for earning a spot on the Justice League roster is getting one of your parents killed. I'm surprised in Bruce Wayne's flashback in BvS, we didn't see young Bruce lunge for Joe Chill's gun, causing it to go off and kill both of his parents.)

Anyway, apparently Cyborg is riddled with guilt over this (as he should be) and later dies after pulling the Mother Boxes apart. Of course, Bruce Wayne is working at the end of the film to revive/rebuild him, since Bruce is now the League's de facto Necromancer. I'm sure that (if all of this is true) Snyder went into it with the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean it would have turned out great. First of all, it makes Cyborg's entire arc one sad, depressing slog. I wonder if his dad also gets killed along the way just to make things even more grim.

Second, the optics on having your only black team member being the one who gets killed are incredibly bad, and I can't believe writers and directors still don't recognize this. Now, to be clear, I'm NOT calling Snyder and Terrio racists. But what I am saying is that despite all the calls for more diversity in film that we've been hearing, many directors and screenwriters still aren't getting it. There's a reason "the black man dies first" cliche is talked about so often. I GUARANTEE you that if this movie ended with Cyborg's death, critics would have seized on that and ripped the movie to shreds, regardless of how well such a scene was handled.

Lastly, back while doing the press for BvS, Terrio talked about how JL was intended to be the uplifting chapter in this MoS/BvS/JL trilogy. Somehow, I don't see how ending the film with the death of the character that Snyder referred to as "the heart of the movie" would have felt uplifting, at least not in Snyder's hands. It would have been another dark, bittersweet ending like BvS had, with people walking out of the theater either feeling like crap or not feeling anything at all.

 

[idiot09]

I read through an article this morning that talked about some of the things that were supposedly cut from the movie.

This is the problem with sites reporting on unfounded rumors/fanfic from reddit that has already been debunked. People take it as truth, and it sets a narrative. I'm pretty sure Cyborg was NOT going to be killed in the movie, as Snyder shot this and as you see...Cyborg is not dead :

http://****************.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/BTS12.jpg

And from what we saw in the trailers and descriptions, the movie was going to have a lot of humor and certainly more uplifting than BvS.

 

[Consona]

I read through an article this morning that talked about some of the things that were supposedly cut from the movie. Perhaps these aspects would have improved it, but most likely, it would have resulted in JL just being a dour, lifeless mess like BvS was.

For example, supposedly there was a scene of Cyborg getting angry that his father missed his football game, which leads to him crashing his car, killing his mother and leaving him half dead. (Because apparently, in this universe, a prerequisite for earning a spot on the Justice League roster is getting one of your parents killed. I'm surprised in Bruce Wayne's flashback in BvS, we didn't see young Bruce lunge for Joe Chill's gun, causing it to go off and kill both of his parents.)

Anyway, apparently Cyborg is riddled with guilt over this (as he should be) and later dies after pulling the Mother Boxes apart. Of course, Bruce Wayne is working at the end of the film to revive/rebuild him, since Bruce is now the League's de facto Necromancer. I'm sure that (if all of this is true) Snyder went into it with the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean it would have turned out great. First of all, it makes Cyborg's entire arc one sad, depressing slog. I wonder if his dad also gets killed along the way just to make things even more grim.

Second, the optics on having your only black team member being the one who gets killed are incredibly bad, and I can't believe writers and directors still don't recognize this. Now, to be clear, I'm NOT calling Snyder and Terrio racists. But what I am saying is that despite all the calls for more diversity in film that we've been hearing, many directors and screenwriters still aren't getting it. There's a reason "the black man dies first" cliche is talked about so often. I GUARANTEE you that if this movie ended with Cyborg's death, critics would have seized on that and ripped the movie to shreds, regardless of how well such a scene was handled.

Lastly, back while doing the press for BvS, Terrio talked about how JL was intended to be the uplifting chapter in this MoS/BvS/JL trilogy. Somehow, I don't see how ending the film with the death of the character that Snyder referred to as "the heart of the movie" would have felt uplifting, at least not in Snyder's hands. It would have been another dark, bittersweet ending like BvS had, with people walking out of the theater either feeling like crap or not feeling anything at all.

Lol, why do you still act like there are no people who totally loved BvS.

 

[Consona]

Yeah. And they are paying the price for it.

No, they are paying price for interfering, releasing incomplete films in cinemas, etc.

 

[Consona]

Thanks for the stats, I've seen them, but I meant your take. How does a film that merits so much discussion, even 4+ years later, rate as "average"? Do you talk about the average hamburger you ate at a diner every Christmas, or do you forget about it and enthuse about the much better hamburger you enjoyed at a steakhouse? You honestly think MoS is merely "average"? To me, it's clearly not.

Don't pay much attention to numbers and opinions. I don't care how low or average BvS scores are, it only tells me those people who rated it low did not like it, that's all.

Like I utterly love reading Aristotle's Physics or Fichte's Grundlage der gesammten Wissenschaftslehre, those books are amongst the finest pieces of literature ever written, totally mesmerizing, I have an absolute blast reading them. Now give those books to a wide general population to read. I bet 99% of the people would say those books are impossibly boring. So what? It only tells me I appreciate quite different things than they do. Case closed. t:

 

[Deck Rickard]

Lol, why do you still act like there are no people who totally loved BvS.

You're right. I forgot to include all 12 of you.

 

[Deck Rickard]

This is the problem with sites reporting on unfounded rumors/fanfic from reddit that has already been debunked. People take it as truth, and it sets a narrative. I'm pretty sure Cyborg was NOT going to be killed in the movie, as Snyder shot this and as you see...Cyborg is not dead :

http://****************.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/BTS12.jpg

And from what we saw in the trailers and descriptions, the movie was going to have a lot of humor and certainly more uplifting than BvS.

What exactly does this prove? While you may be right and the thing about Cyborg dying is a lie, just because he was there on the last day of filming doesn't disprove the rumor. Do you honestly think that if Cyborg was going to die at the end of the film, Snyder would have made that clear in this picture?

Also, the trailers did show more humor and a film that was potentially more uplifting than BvS, but as we saw with Suicide Squad (and some would argue MOS) trailers are not necessarily indicative of the final product.

 

[Greens]

Don't pay much attention to numbers and opinions. I don't care how low or average BvS scores are, it only tells me those people who rated it low did not like it, that's all.

Like I utterly love reading Aristotle's Physics or Fichte's Grundlage der gesammten Wissenschaftslehre, those books are amongst the finest pieces of literature ever written, totally mesmerizing, I have an absolute blast reading them. Now give those books to a wide general population to read. I bet 99% of the people would say those books are impossibly boring. So what? It only tells me I appreciate quite different things than they do. Case closed. t:

I hope you're not equating those books to BvS.

 

[Predator jp]

I hope you're not equating those books to BvS.

no he's not. he's just saying he is smarter than all of you.

 

[Greens]

no he's not. he's just saying he is smarter than all of you.

He demonstrated his intelligence by using the original German title of Fichte's book

 

[FunkMiller]

He demonstrated his intelligence by using the original German title of Fichte's book

I’m sat here overwhelmed, I don’t know about you.

 

[Consona]

no he's not. he's just saying he is smarter than all of you.

He demonstrated his intelligence by using the original German title of Fichte's book

This.

 

[idiot09]

What exactly does this prove? While you may be right and the thing about Cyborg dying is a lie, just because he was there on the last day of filming doesn't disprove the rumor.

He was in the same shot in the trailer as well. So not just in the BTS shot.

Also, the trailers did show more humor and a film that was potentially more uplifting than BvS, but as we saw with Suicide Squad (and some would argue MOS) trailers are not necessarily indicative of the final product.

I would agree that trailers are not indictive of a quality of a film, and sometimes the tones of movies and trailers dont always match, but even then, there is no way that Snyder's version before the reshoots were as dark as BvS or something. They already said this movie was going to be lighter, in the set visits too, and we saw that from the trailers. They probably took it even further with the reshoots.

 

[moviedoors]

I think Justice League is worse than Batman v Superman. Easily.

Same. I'll always wish I could see what Snyder had originally intended for the simple reason that I liked the previous movies so much more.

 

[WBwins]

The fact that JL had a low opening weekend indicates that there was low interest in the movie itself.That has nothing to do with warners inteevention.Even if Snyder had free reign,it would not change the low interest in its opening weekend

 

[kguillou]

So, question for you guys, in a scenario where Zack's horrible personal tragedy did not happen and he was chugging along on the film, do you guys think the outcome would've likely been the same? The studio bringing Whedon in and gradually pushing Snyder out of the editing room?

 

[Jekecy]

So, question for you guys, in a scenario where Zack's horrible personal tragedy did not happen and he was chugging along on the film, do you guys think the outcome would've likely been the same? The studio bringing Whedon in and gradually pushing Snyder out of the editing room?

Nah, I think the reshoots would've still happened. But at least Snyder would've been helming things. The 2hr mandate would've still been in place though, so all those cuts still take place. This project was doomed no matter what.

 

[kguillou]

Nah, I think the reshoots would've still happened. But at least Snyder would've been helming things. The 2hr mandate would've still been in place though, so all those cuts still take place. This project was doomed no matter what.

Thats true. And we still would've had the issue of filming Henry with a moustache and trying to remove it last minute.