The Winter Soldier Agent 13

[BullMcGiveny]

And what? He decides to run off leaving her unharmed and/or she gets saved by someone else?

Well, he did pretty much that in the movie. I just think she should have got a good fight in.

It was actually refreshing to have female lead and a male lead in a superhero (solo) movie who are not romantically linked. Sharon would have been a love interest as well as a partner if she had Nat's position.

Fictional characters don't have wills of their own.

Sharon could have been the female lead without being romantically involved with Steve, had the writers simply written her as such.

 

[Heretic]

People forget that Coulson essentially started off as just a side character in the first Iron Man film.

In keeping with this thread, Coulson definitely should have been a main character in Iron Man 2 and developed a love interest as well....I guess they'd have to cut out another character to invent a love interest.

Basically, I agree with you guys...there should be no such thing as subtle introductions, subplots, or supporting characters.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Well, he did pretty much that in the movie. I just think she should have got a good fight in.



Fictional characters don't have wills of their own.

Sharon could have been the female lead without being romantically involved with Steve, had the writers simply written her as such.

So she's no longer his love interest? Or just not in this movie? They'd have to hint at it for future films or else it would just get rushed in Cap 3. I think they set things up perfectly here for her.

Plus I'm pretty sure a lot of people wouldn't be nearly as excited for this movie if she was the lead instead of Nat.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

People forget that Coulson essentially started off as just a side character in the first Iron Man film.

Coulson was intended as a one-off character, though?

But Clarke Gregg just happened to be a real cool guy and Feige and Favreau loved him so they started using Coulson more and more.

So she's no longer his love interest? Or just not in this movie? They'd have to hint at it for future films or else it would just get rushed in Cap 3. I think they set things up perfectly here for her.

Just for this movie.

And no it wouldn't be rushed, at least not any more than it is set to be.

Plus I'm pretty sure people wouldn't be nearly as excited for this movie if she was the lead instead of Nat. I know I wouldn't be considering Nat is one of my favourite females in Marvel.

With that kind of attitude, we wouldn't get anything new.

 

[Heretic]

But we DID get something new.

 

[DrCosmic]

Aside from having to leave, and the matchmaking, yes, that is close to Waid's Sharon.

Well, then Brubaker's Sharon is total derailment. -shrug-

No, I do care about themes. I loved the themes present in this movie.

And yes, Natasha certainly fits the themes.

I just disagree that Natasha fits them while Sharon doesn't, or that she fits them far more than Sharon could.

When I say "she's a spy", I mean that the themes are more tied to the espionage genre than to Natasha in particular. Myself, I didn't see it as being about "lies" and more about the cost of moral compromise.

As for Sharon's role, I honestly think it was hardly trying. If other loved it, then that's good for them. If a lot end up loving it, and I hope they do, it'll convince Marvel to give her something meatier down the line.

But I honestly tried to enjoy what she got, but I just wasn't impressed.

I have no doubt you tried, but the plain fact is you don't even remember/acknowledge/weren't shown her best action scene. You may not have been capable of enjoying what she got with the perspective you went in with.

For the record, Marvel doesn't need to be convinced, the actress said from the beginning this was a small introduction with more planned in the future, and the movie basically had Steve promise to make her a bigger part in the next film. Marvel doesn't have to be convinced to give her more down the line, that is and always has been the clear stated plan both in story and by the cast. From Marvel's perspective, she is important to the franchise, but not important to this particular film. That makes sense to me.

The issue is, the themes weren't just moral compromise, that was the contention between Fury and Cap in the beginning and Fury and Pierce in the end. That was Fury's theme, not Cap's. The film, overall, was about trust. When you all do bad things, who's the bad guy? The good guys are the bad guys, and therefore, you can't trust any of it, shut it all down, shoot at the people shooting at you. Then he overcame even that, because the final loyalty switch was him getting Bucky back. Widow, a career turncoat and master liar, which we've all seen in IM2 and Avengers, fits into that seamlessly. You don't have to build her up into someone who would be lost without SHIELD or someone to define her. You don't have to take away her aunt as a shining beacon of goodness and proof (to herself and the audience) who she is and that she has noble intentions, because Natasha doesn't have any anchors like Sharon does.

Natasha fits the themes of the film better. The film needed someone lost. Sharon, at her core is not, Natasha, at her core, is.

 

[Heretic]

For the record, Marvel doesn't need to be convinced, the actress said from the beginning this was a small introduction with more planned in the future,

I've got a small introduction for that actress!

Wait...that didn't come out right...

 

[Donnie Darko]

Carter got a good introduction. Why do we need her entire arc shoved into one film? This universe is structured like comic books...and characters in comics often start as B players and then are more fully developed over time. They even made a point to mention that he'll likely be asking her out. Isn't it better to see the relationship grow naturally rather than just have him immediately replace his old flame with a new one?

Exactly.

I did expect a little more Sharon, but I was 100% ok with what they did. I loved the movie.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Coulson was intended as a one-off character, though?

But Clarke Gregg just happened to be a real cool guy and Feige and Favreau loved him so they started using Coulson more and more.

Even if that is the case, maybe they learned from the Coulson experience that you can introduce a character with a small role like that and roll it into a much bigger role in the universe. I mean, Nick Fury was in a post-credits scene in Iron Man, so his introduction wasn't exactly a leading role, so I think Sharon can be ok.

 

[Dark Raven]

Even if that is the case, maybe they learned from the Coulson experience that you can introduce a character with a small role like that and roll it into a much bigger role in the universe. I mean, Nick Fury was in a post-credits scene in Iron Man, so his introduction wasn't exactly a leading role, so I think Sharon can be ok.

Natasha didn't have a large role in IM2 either, but went on to become the female lead in this movie. It seems anyone can come to prominence or fade more into the background in these movies.

 

[seishin87]

Steve's not a two woman guy. It's not like he had a tough time choosing between the blonde and Peggy. And in this one, I don't think he sees Natasha as more than a friend.

Of course. He isn't James Bond. And yeah I kinda phrased it funny. Cap's old fashioned and a decent guy. He's not gonna string two girls along. Of course he didn't have a hard time choosing but still the choice was there. Rather than Cap being a two timer what I was trying to say was the movies/stories should at least for now feature two potential love interests for Steve until he finally gets the "right partner" so to speak. It's not unheard of or unprecedented for there to be more than one woman competing for Caps love i.e from the comics at the beginning when we met Sharon for the first time Peggy was still around although that was clearly over, then there was Valentina and Sharon, and then Bernadette and Rachel, and if remembering it correctly Steve was dating the lawyer Connie when Sharon came back. Those are just a few sitiuations from the comics.

The first two Cap films's arguable each featured 2 potential love interests/chances at romance for Steve. TFA had Peggy and the Blonde, TWS has Natasha and Sharon. I know Nat is not a traditional romantic interest at all but they developed their "working" relationship at the least, and some of the stuff in TWS is a nice nod to the fact in certain continuities/universes Steve/Nat were an item. As far as film canon goes, it feels like the Nat/Steve book is closed, it's a professional friendship. Now for Cap 3, Sharon is a given but it would be interesting to have Diamondback in the mix as the bad girl/spoiler. Diamondback is a different world from Sharon. It wouldn't be stretch for that to manifest as some kind of confrontation between the two. Of all of the relationships Cap has had, Rachel/Diamondback is the one I want to see translated/adapted to the big screen.

Steve has had a few deep, genuine relationships over the years. He's the real deal, the only real competition for his love is his duty as Cap always comes first. So in a sense his romantic life story is filled with heartbreak and tragedy and dead end situations. He is quite literally star crossed, and has the uniform/outfit to prove it it.

 

[Loki882]

Just saw the movie, her screentime was fine. Would it have been nice to get one or two more scenes with her, yes. But it wasn't essentially. I like that she was the one who stood up for Cap after he went on the run and pulled a gun on Rumlow at the end. Also, her action scene was cool. The fact that BW asked Cap to ask her out AGAIN in their last scene together AND used her real first name this time makes be confident that she'll have a bigger role in Cap 3.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Natasha didn't have a large role in IM2 either, but went on to become the female lead in this movie. It seems anyone can come to prominence or fade more into the background in these movies.

The situation with Natasha and Sharon can't be compared. At all.

Natasha had much more screentime than Sharon did. Enough that she interviewed about her character in press material right alongside RDJ. She was also present in all posters and trailers.

Within the movie, she played a vital role in defeating the villain that couldn't have been filled by just about any random character. Her fight scene was perfectly visible, as opposed to something that I apparently missed because I blinked.

And they gave her full name.

Her role wasn't the female lead, but it wasn't "just an introduction" either.

And Natasha isn't part of Iron Man's mythos to nearly the same extent that Sharon is of Cap's, and so wasn't intended to be part of his supporting cast, but intended for other, greater things. IE, The Avengers, where she got the third most amount of screentime.

Sharon just doesn't have the chances Natasha does. She's not going to be an Avenger, and they're not going to make her the female lead in Doctor Strange.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Here's the thing. People want MORE Sharon. They also wanted MORE Bucky, MORE Fury, MORE Zola, MORE Falcon, etc. Basically, people aren't going to be satisfied unless the movie is 5 hours long, and their favorite character gets more screentime than some other character.

They did the smart thing. The movie is about Cap (and SHIELD), so they focused on Cap and used two characters who are synonymous with SHIELD in the MCU. On top of that, they introduced Cap's best friend from comics and gave him lots of screentime, action, etc. All of this is in addition to the HYDRA/Winter Soldier storylines.

We got Sharon. She was introduced and all things point to her being a big presence in Cap 3. Let's not pretend that she got the Spider-Man 3 Gwen Stacy treatment or [insert basically any mutant] from X-Men 3 treatment. Sharon is going to be just fine.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

If they are going to be doing a lot more with Sharon in the future, then I will be ecstatic when it happens.

Until then, let's not pretend Sharon is getting a favorable treatment, or that she's on the same road Natasha was.

 

[Heretic]

Basically some fans think that every character deserves to be a main character in every single film. If you give us more of a character we want, we will complain that another character did not get enough time. We demand at least 2 new Marvel movies every single weekend of the year to fit every character in. Otherwise, we refuse to be happy.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Yeah, if you're not impressed with pittance, you're demanding they be the main character.

 

[Heretic]

The problem is you seem to have never read a comic book or seen a Marvel movie.

You should check some out...and you'll see that this is often how it is done! Mary Jane was a bit player before she became Spider-Man's girlfriend. Thanos got a mere cameo in a post credits scene...so are you mad that he didnt get his due, or have you realized that they are subtly building to a much larger story where he will be a main focus?

Why do you want everything right now? Just let these things play out the way comic books do. They have plans for Sharon Carter, just as they had plans with Bucky. Remember in The First Avenger where he was a bit player...and then in this movie he became more important...and theoretically he'll play an even larger role in the future?? It's like that. If you want superhero movies where everything is thrown in and rushed, then there are plenty of horrible movies for you to watch that did just that.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

The problem is you seem to have never read a comic book or seen a Marvel movie.

You should check some out...and you'll see that this is often how it is done! Mary Jane was a bit player before she became Spider-Man's girlfriend. Thanos got a mere cameo in a post credits scene...so are you mad that he didnt get his due, or have you realized that they are subtly building to a much larger story where he will be a main focus?

Yes, I have read and watched comics and movies, and I understand how they worked.

Mary Jane was a bit player because that's how the writers intended her. She just happened to unexpectedly explode in popularity.

As a result, they just went ahead and made her a prominent character in the adaptation.

Thanos got a cameo, but his presence was clearly felt throughout the entire movie. His actions influenced the movie from beginning to end. The same can't be said for Sharon.

Why do you want everything right now?

I don't. I just wanted wanted Sharon in more than a named extra role. Not a relationship.

You fail to realize there's a wide range of roles Sharon could have between bit character and female lead/love interest.

I've already said all that. You're just willfully misunderstanding what I'm saying. That's your problem.

Just let these things play out the way comic books do.

These aren't comics, though.

You've got a lot more room with comics, so you can actually afford to take your time.

They have plans for Sharon Carter, just as they had plans with Bucky. Remember in The First Avenger where he was a bit player... and then in this movie he became more important...and theoretically he'll play an even larger role in the future?? It's like that.

Except Bucky wasn't a bit character.

And I'm sorry, but this entire argument that bit characters will definitely certainly without a doubt grow into important characters is bull.

Happy Hogan didn't.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Sharon is not going to get the same treatment as Natasha. That's it. I think she'll have a much bigger role in the third movie but she's in not in the same league as an AVENGER.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Sharon is not going to get the same treatment as Natasha. That's it. I think she'll have a much bigger role in the third movie but she's in not in the same league as an AVENGER.

Yeah, I know.

Someone else said that because Natasha started in a "small" role before becoming a major character, and that the same would happen to Sharon.

 

[Donnie Darko]

Lets just be thankful that she didn't get the Amazing Spider-Man 2 Mary Jane treatment.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Frankly, it wouldn't have made much of a difference if they did.

 

[Heretic]

You fail to realize there's a wide range of roles Sharon could have between bit character and female lead/love interest.

You've got a lot more room with comics, so you can actually afford to take your time.

Except Bucky wasn't a bit character.

And I'm sorry, but this entire argument that bit characters will definitely certainly without a doubt grow into important characters is bull.

Happy Hogan didn't.

No, this argument is NOT that every bit character will grow into something more. The argument is that it's OBVIOUS that THIS bit character will grow into something more. Cap basically said goodbye to the love of his life in this movie...and a recurring theme throughout the entire freaking movie is that he should ask out Sharon, that he wants to ask out Sharon and that Sharon wanted to go out with him. It was made perfectly clear that they WILL meet again and develop a relationship.

Most of the non-comics fans that I know had forgotten that a character named Bucky was even in the first movie. I actually had to rent the first film to remind my girlfriend that the character existed.

Marvel has PLENTY of room to grow. Coulson was able to grow into a fan favorite character over the course of a few films and now he has his own tv show. Personally, I'd RATHER have a tv show about this new agent Carter than I would the one who is now old as dirt (though I know that isn't the plan).

Besides...when you meet someone for the first time, do they immediately become a major part of your life? Isn't it more likely that you exchange a few words, realize you share some interests, and grow a relationship out of that?

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Marvel doesn't have as much room to grow as it used to, certainly not between now and Cap 3. SHIELD is gone, and they'd been low-key since Avengers, and it remains to be seen if the CIA is going to be playing a role in movies to come.

And I'd hardly call it a recurring theme. More of a running gag.

Natasha advises him to ask out Sharon, but she also tells him to ask out a bunch of other girls, too.

It isn't really about Sharon and Steve, but more about Steve and Natasha's friendship.

Because, we are actually given little reason to be interested in a Steve and Sharon relationship.

When we see them interact, its far too brief and Sharon is actually playing a part. Steve is hitting on "Kate", not Sharon.

Once he does know her as Agent 13, they don't interact.

Basically, Cap 3 will have to pretty much start from practically nothing. It'll have to explain why Steve would be interested in Sharon (beside that she is pretty), not to mention it'll have to reveal her being Sharon CARTER. Which is something that would have taken literally a second in this movie, but they still didn't do it.

So yeah, as far as introductions go, it is inadequate.