Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents of SHIELD TV series for ABC - General Discussion - Part 7

[SHIELDtv]

One thing I've been thinking about is how much creating a TV series is like running a race. One of the things I've noticed about most (if not all, I haven't checked) the shows that people are comparing AoS to is that they are shows with short seasons.

The way creators plan out a season appears to be similar to how an athlete would plan out a race. If the race is short you pelt out of the gate and go all in but if you're running long race you have to plan to hold yourself back and start slower, work out the pace you need to maintain and where and when to pick up speed throughout the race in order to make it to the end in the best possible time.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has 22-24 episode seasons to look at, not 10-13. The pacing has to be different.

 

[The Question]

That is a very important distinction. A 100% serialized ensemble drama that is revealing secrets every other episode works for shows like Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead that get 10-13 episodes per season. Network shows that get an order for 20-14 need standalone episodes for a variety of reasons, and feel really weird without them. That was, in my opinion, Lost's biggest problem. They were so completely serialized, but then the inevitable standalone episodes to pace out their longer seasons felt super awkward because of it.

So far, Agents of SHIELD is doing what every Joss Whedon show has done: Start of episodic and slowly develop the store arc as you go. That didn't hurt Buffy or Angel, and it only hurt Firefly insofar as it frustrated the fans who wanted to know what was supposed to happen after it got cancelled.

Agents of SHIELD has problems, I will admit that, but they're not obvious surface problems. Their problem is that the show ultimately feels flat and doesn't completely suck in the audience like past Whedon shows did. And this is generally because of lots of very tiny things that are hard to list and articulate. They're unfortunate, but the show is getting better at correcting them, and they're the kind of things that really can only be corrected over time. There isn't any single, huge thing that if changed would "fix" the show.

 

[Crimson King]

That is a very important distinction. A 100% serialized ensemble drama that is revealing secrets every other episode works for shows like Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead that get 10-13 episodes per season. Network shows that get an order for 20-14 need standalone episodes for a variety of reasons, and feel really weird without them. That was, in my opinion, Lost's biggest problem. They were so completely serialized, but then the inevitable standalone episodes to pace out their longer seasons felt super awkward because of it.

Except for the Desmond episode, which was incredible.

 

[The Question]

Except for the Desmond episode, which was incredible.

It was pretty good. But what with the wibbly wobbly-ness of it, it felt more like a super arc-important episode, even if it's plot was relatively self contained.

Not so with the episode where Charlie starts having weird religious hallucinations and nearly drowns the baby in a fit or spiritual ecstasy for basically no reason at all. That episode was nonsense.

 

[cherokeesam]

Both sides are acting rediculous... the people who've hated the show from the start because it's nothing at all like they expected... (either Avengers 2.0 full of supes, or a Dark Knight level drama akin to 24) It was quite clear it was going to be neither of those from anyone actually following the news about the show...

then there's those who are acting like the show is suddenly "saved" when basically all they're saying is "I just want comic people on the show, i don't care how well the characters are written, i just want comic people popping up" sort of like a dog just wanting it's treat... While the show has gotten quite enjoyable for me... the characters took quite a bit for me to begin to like them or get invested in, and I think that was the real problem for the show in the beginning. Any story can work well with compelling characters... and they don't have to be comic-book characters to make them compelling. that's a crutch.

Who the hell ever said "I just want comic people on the show, I don't care how well the characters are written?" I want names, so we can start knocking heads.

*Nobody* asked for lower quality. *Nobody* asking for more mining from comic-book canon wants it to be at the expense of strong characters and good writing. But we don't have strong characters or good writing *yet,* so it sure as hell couldn't hurt to start bringing the show more into line with the comics, could it? In fact, sounds to me like these upcoming comic-book characters (Deathlok, Sif, Lorelei, John Garrett) will be a helluva lot more interesting than any of the cardboard cutouts we've been subjected to so far.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That is a very important distinction. A 100% serialized ensemble drama that is revealing secrets every other episode works for shows like Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead that get 10-13 episodes per season. Network shows that get an order for 20-14 need standalone episodes for a variety of reasons, and feel really weird without them. That was, in my opinion, Lost's biggest problem. They were so completely serialized, but then the inevitable standalone episodes to pace out their longer seasons felt super awkward because of it.

So far, Agents of SHIELD is doing what every Joss Whedon show has done: Start of episodic and slowly develop the store arc as you go. That didn't hurt Buffy or Angel, and it only hurt Firefly insofar as it frustrated the fans who wanted to know what was supposed to happen after it got cancelled.

Agents of SHIELD has problems, I will admit that, but they're not obvious surface problems. Their problem is that the show ultimately feels flat and doesn't completely suck in the audience like past Whedon shows did. And this is generally because of lots of very tiny things that are hard to list and articulate. They're unfortunate, but the show is getting better at correcting them, and they're the kind of things that really can only be corrected over time. There isn't any single, huge thing that if changed would "fix" the show.

Perfect Post

I'd also like to add that SHIELD started with an over whelming team of already trained Agents.... Agents of SHIELD in general so far in the marvel universe (aside from a small few) have been depicted as very dry, and in all honesty... kinda boring personalities. They kick ass, but they don't let alot of emotion through. I think characters like that do indeed take time to develop, because throwing a massive ball of personality right from the get-go suddenly doesn't make them fit in as agents.. Skye, Fitts and Simmons stuck out like a sore-thumb in the first half of this season mostly because of that... They were the only ones that really even had a personality.

The active agents have a pretty cold demeanor.. and if it weren't for the fact we've grown to love Coulson over the course of the films, we'd probably find him pretty boring as well..


But alas, they've all slowly been chipped away and are getting development. It just requires some patience.

 

[Shikamaru]

As I said before, the show made no effort to hype itself up and give people a reason to keep tuning in. I would at least expect it to do that. That and the pacing was incredibly slow. I don't care how much you plan ahead, there is no reason the pacing had to be that slow.

Who the hell ever said "I just want comic people on the show, I don't care how well the characters are written?" I want names, so we can start knocking heads.

*Nobody* asked for lower quality. *Nobody* asking for more mining from comic-book canon wants it to be at the expense of strong characters and good writing. But we don't have strong characters or good writing *yet,* so it sure as hell couldn't hurt to start bringing the show more into line with the comics, could it? In fact, sounds to me like these upcoming comic-book characters (Deathlok, Sif, Lorelei, John Garrett) will be a helluva lot more interesting than any of the cardboard cutouts we've been subjected to so far.

The problem is that the characters we've had so far were, for the most part, uninteresting and haven't been written well. Spideyboy makes it sound as if everyone wanted to throw these "incredibly complex" characters aside in favor of comic book characters.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Who the hell ever said "I just want comic people on the show, I don't care how well the characters are written?" I want names, so we can start knocking heads.

*Nobody* asked for lower quality. *Nobody* asking for more mining from comic-book canon wants it to be at the expense of strong characters and good writing. But we don't have strong characters or good writing *yet,* so it sure as hell couldn't hurt to start bringing the show more into line with the comics, could it? In fact, sounds to me like these upcoming comic-book characters (Deathlok, Sif, Lorelei, John Garrett) will be a helluva lot more interesting than any of the cardboard cutouts we've been subjected to so far.

did you read the quote before responding? I specifically said "there's those who are acting like the show is suddenly "saved" when basically all they're saying is "I just want comic people on the show, i don't care how well the characters are written, i just want comic people popping up"

I never mentioned you, nor was i saying you were one of them. It's not "all about you" sam...

i'm talking about those who are specifically flipping out saying OMG THE SHOW IS LIKE SO AWESOME RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE ARE GETTING COMIC CHARACTERS! YAY!!! I CAN"T WAIT"

 

[Gr0oT]

So do people think that Mike Peterson will be given an alias of Michael Collins now that he is forced to work for Centipede, and has become Deathlok?

I wouldn't see the point in changing his name to Michael Collins, to them he is likely seen a tool. What would motivate them to say "Hey, now that we've made a cyborg of this guy how does Collins sound to you?"

I honestly don't get your thought process.

If they really want to pander to the comic fans after the fact of completely changing the character they can make Collins his mothers maiden name...

I hope he doesn't have a budget costume but that his outfit actually looks like the comic character. It needs to be good enough that it could potentially show up as a cameo in a movie.

This is my biggest concern at the moment, that he'll look like complete ass.

Already it seems pretty certain he wont have the metal mesh going down his next and over his body, and I doubt he'll have the colour scheme, nor will he have the imposing shape and he doesn't have much of a chin, and a cheap cyborg faceplate can ruin things.

so far MS redesigned every single costume for every single of their movies. no hero wore the exact same outfit twice. If DL cameos in a future movie, Granov or Meinerding or whoever will create a movie appropriate costume for him.

This is true, in my head in the movieverse he somehow ends up in Wakanda, they find the shoddy cybernetics to be embarrassing and remake his body in a vibranium/adamantanium alloy.

Will Mike Peterson actually be called Deathlok, or are they going for the same approach they've had in some other Marvel movies where he's not actually referred to by name, but we just know it's supposed to be him?

What would be the reasoning behind giving him that name?

Well in the link provided by xeno earlier they put a direct quote from the scene they saw and he has deathlok branded on his leg and the project is the deathlok project, so...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The problem is that the characters we've had so far were, for the most part, uninteresting and haven't been written well. Spideyboy makes it sound as if everyone wanted to throw these "incredibly complex" characters aside in favor of comic book characters.

you apparently misunderstood..

there's not incredibly complex characters to be thrown aside... im just saying some of you are acting like all is now right in the world because "comic characters" suddenly fix the shows problems. it doesnt. (and no , not calling you one of those people)

 

[TRM]

I wouldn't say that all the characters have been completely cardboard.
I'm kind of on the side that thinks adding more comic characters in the second half of the season was always the plan. They may only have a rough outline for things, and write things as they go, but i think they always had a few ideas of where the Skye having powers thing would go.

Simmons is actually my favorite character that's appeared on the show so far....I watch the show now for Simmons and Raina. LOL I love Simmons' character so much I'd watch a show all about her... There are certain things about her character I really like, the way she approaches science, like the Asgardian said in "The Well". When the asgardian said the staff shines a light into people's darkest memories, and she said "that's no explanation!" it had me in stitches. I think Fitz and Simmons were well thought out..
I can tell a lot more effort was put into Simmons and Fitz from the beginning. Those two characters, even though one seemed to be redundant in the beginning, grew on me the quickest.

I do kinda agree that some of the other Shield members started out pretty poor, but even with Skye and Ward you can see they've been trying to make their characters better...I really think we needed these first episodes to get to know the Shield team. Sure, they still have a lot of room for growth, but now most of their character history is out of the way. And they knew what to work on a little bit in later episodes (making Ward less robotic over time).. I totally think the first episodes were basically used to test the characters. Now they know who their stronger characters are, which ones fans respond to. I'll be crushed now if Simmons dies, she's the one i really care about besides Coulson. I do think there are problems with Skye's character, hopefully they'll smooth out a little more once her story plays out.

 

[Shikamaru]

you apparently misunderstood..

there's not incredibly complex characters to be thrown aside... im just saying some of you are acting like all is now right in the world because "comic characters" suddenly fix the shows problems. it doesnt. (and no , not calling you one of those people)

We are not acting like it will fix the show's problem. We are acting like it has the potential to. By bringing in more comic book characters, you have the room for more interesting characters and stories. No, a character doesn't have to be from the comics to be interesting, but we've already seen this show attempt to go that route in the first half (and it didn't work so well).

As I said in the past, this show wasn't even able to make the best of what they had to work with. Ward being the "best spy since Romanov", as Coulson stated in the first episode, is never brought up again nor do we ever see that in action. Simmons is the least developed character in the team and is practically the only member with no defining character moments so far. Mike being thrown aside as opposed to joining the team is a bit more understandable now given that we know where they are going with him, but no one would have complained about that in the first place had Skye been more interesting in the first place.

That being said, the last two episodes have been a massive improvement over the rest of the show in almost all areas.

 

[The Question]

Ward being the "best spy since Romanov", as Coulson stated in the first episode, is never brought up again nor do we ever see that in action.

Giving that more focus isn't something that would have improved the show. It might have been fun in a dumb action movie kind of way, but it wouldn't have solved any of the show's actual problems.

Simmons is the least developed character in the team and is practically the only member with no defining character moments so far.

What about the episode where she nearly died and she got about half of the screen time and it was all devoted to how she behaved when staring death in the face? I think that helped to define her character a lot.

Mike being thrown aside as opposed to joining the team is a bit more understandable now given that we know where they are going with him, but no one would have complained about that in the first place had Skye been more interesting in the first place.

This really is just a matter of opinion, but I always thought Skye was interesting. From the get go I was interested in where her story was going, and honestly if I have any complaint is that they've been de-emphasizing the Rising Tide in all of this. Part of what intrigued me about her was that I wanted to see more of them.

 

[mkilban2]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this show needs to get season 1 to Netflix as soon as possible.

So many shows I love now come because of Netflix, I had never even heard of Breaking Bad until 3 seasons were on Netflix, would have never even tried Lost out on live TV, same with TWD, Arrow, Mad Men, Dexter, Parks and Rec, HIMYM, and numerous other programs. And I know at least 15 people who have experienced the same thing.

People just don't want to watch a show week by week anymore like they did in the late 80s to mid 90s, they'd much rather have access to all episodes at once to binge watch and then catch up with the show on Live TV

I think to build a good exposure and get millions more people ready for season 2 you put season 1 on Netflix ASAP, slap a big Marvel sticker on the cover picture and reap the benefits. I know I would have enjoyed the first 10 episodes more if I coulda watched them all over a few days rather than a few months lol.

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

Agents of SHIELD has problems, I will admit that, but they're not obvious surface problems. Their problem is that the show ultimately feels flat and doesn't completely suck in the audience like past Whedon shows did. And this is generally because of lots of very tiny things that are hard to list and articulate. They're unfortunate, but the show is getting better at correcting them, and they're the kind of things that really can only be corrected over time. There isn't any single, huge thing that if changed would "fix" the show.

You hit the nail on the head with this. I never understood a lot the complaints about this show, but reading this, I think people were just magnifying small things due to frustration. The writers need to find a way to "suck in" a lot of the people frustrated with this show and most of their complaints will vanish.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I'm not going to be happy if by the end of his arc on the show, Bill Paxton doesn't die.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I hope he sticks around to be honest. Even if he isn't a regular he can come back.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I hope he sticks around to be honest. Even if he isn't a regular he can come back.

He's been killed by an Alien, Predator and Terminator so it's only logical he meets his demise.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

eh. If it works for the story then whatever. I'm not a fan of killing off performers I like just for giggles though.

 

[Shikamaru]

Giving that more focus isn't something that would have improved the show. It might have been fun in a dumb action movie kind of way, but it wouldn't have solved any of the show's actual problems.

It would at least make one character feel more larger-than-life. People don't tune in to MCU stories to necessarily see superpowers, but characters larger-than-life in general. Seeing a young SHIELD agent grow and eventually reach Romanov/Barton levels is a concept with a lot of potential. Part of what makes the characters feel uninteresting is that they feel too 'normal'.

What about the episode where she nearly died and she got about half of the screen time and it was all devoted to how she behaved when staring death in the face? I think that helped to define her character a lot.

That was literally the only moment in the whole show that he had. And even that moment kinda served more as a setup for a bunch of Fitz moments after that episode. There is a lot of Fitz and FitzSimmons, but not enough of just Simmons.

This really is just a matter of opinion, but I always thought Skye was interesting. From the get go I was interested in where her story was going, and honestly if I have any complaint is that they've been de-emphasizing the Rising Tide in all of this. Part of what intrigued me about her was that I wanted to see more of them.

Fair enough.

 

[Endeavor]

That was literally the only moment in the whole show that he had. And even that moment kinda served more as a setup for a bunch of Fitz moments after that episode. There is a lot of Fitz and FitzSimmons, but not enough of just Simmons.

He?
I think you have them confused. Simmons is the girl scientist. Fitz is the monkey loving guy.

 

[cph9fa]

Ward being the "best spy since Romanov", as Coulson stated in the first episode, is never brought up again nor do we ever see that in action.

This is particularly curious, because they specifically made his character weakness antithetical to this -- he's not so good with people and emotions (in an early episode, even him smiling is noteworthy, though they seem to have eased up a bit on that). But that's pretty much the key skill involved with being a spy -- playing off of other people, and getting them to tell you their secrets. I mean, Romanov was able to get Loki to disclose his plans, while Ward couldn't even figure out how to talk to a Russian guard without Skye's help. Granted, he's got the technical skills (fighting, shooting, sniping, parachuting, motorcycle riding, infiltrating 3rd world states, etc...) but without the social skills, that doesn't make you a good spy. He's like a fighter with a Charisma dump-stat.

Meanwhile Skye is so good around people that, even with dismal technical skills (unable to even shoot a gun), she can talk Quinn into trusting her, talk Ward through his "seduction" routine, download classified SHIELD files while being locked out of their systems (by getting Simmons to do it for her), and convincingly impersonate Melinda May. Honestly, she makes a much better spy than Ward.

 

[Shikamaru]

This is particularly curious, because they specifically made his character weakness antithetical to this -- he's not so good with people and emotions (in an early episode, even him smiling is noteworthy, though they seem to have eased up a bit on that). But that's pretty much the key skill involved with being a spy -- playing off of other people, and getting them to tell you their secrets. I mean, Romanov was able to get Loki to disclose his plans, while Ward couldn't even figure out how to talk to a Russian guard without Skye's help. Granted, he's got the technical skills (fighting, shooting, sniping, parachuting, motorcycle riding, infiltrating 3rd world states, etc...) but without the social skills, that doesn't make you a good spy. He's like a fighter with a Charisma dump-stat.

Meanwhile Skye is so good around people that, even with dismal technical skills (unable to even shoot a gun), she can talk Quinn into trusting her, talk Ward through his "seduction" routine, download classified SHIELD files while being locked out of their systems (by getting Simmons to do it for her), and convincingly impersonate Melinda May. Honestly, she makes a much better spy than Ward.

She does. Which is funny because she's not even a SHIELD agent. So if Ward is the "best spy since Romanov", those are some pretty weak spies SHIELD has .

 

[Pokkle]

Ward is strong, he can beat a super soldier alone, he isn't weak. He is just lacking of social skills.

 

[cph9fa]

Ward is strong, he can beat a super soldier alone, he isn't weak. He is just lacking of social skills.

You're right, he's certainly not weak. And he's highly skilled, and good at what he does. He just doesn't make a good spy. He's more of a soldier type. Given what we've seen so far, it almost would have made more sense for them to say he's the best marksman since Hawkeye (it wouldn't have made any less sense). I think maybe there was a lot of confusion earlier in the show among the writers about exactly who he is. Especially since his personality "quirk" is that he doesn't have a personality, which kinda isn't very interesting, and is already pulled off much better by May.

Edit: Saw you just edited your post.