BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion - - - Part 247

[brandeezy89]

In DCEU related news, Deathstroke might be appearing soon. Arrow producer Marc Guggenheim says that Slade is off limits because DC is using him in another project

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

The trailer isn't premiering on GMA. I refuse to believe that.
Trailer got certified last night - trailers don't get certified that far in advance.

Not true. The first X-Men Apocalypse trailer was classified on 12/2 and released 9 days later on 12/11.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I do hope we get it tomorrow, however.

 

[rogbngp]

While I never wanted Bizarro specifically in film, I do think if somewhat in that direction used: either they do a Snyder version of it... or at least there is a clone element to this story. I haven't totally bought into it, but do think it's worthy of speculation for sure. Is that an easter egg for bizarro really though

Yes! In my opinion, without hesitation, it is. Not a doubt in my mind. Watch this video:

[YT]o8R2M_nrlSA[/YT]

There is no way an image like that is inserted... especially in this amazingly conspicuous yet subtle way... into a Zack Snyder film (!) without it meaning something. The backwards "S" has always been Bizarro's symbol.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I wonder if they play it at halftime?

 

[rogbngp]

rog are you suggesting that the chalky white look was intentional makeup choice to purposely be that tone?

No, it's just strange looking. He's chalky looking, is all. No idea why!

 

[DerekLake]

Which he could've avoided being within if he'd sent Clark to deal with the dog instead. It's been a while since I've seen MoS but I recall Clark offering to do that job. It was Pa Kent who told him to run to shelter with Ma Kent instead. It almost felt like Pa Kent was on a suicide mission.

He wasn't, but when it came time and he realized he had no way out, he stood on principle.

I understand that, and I respect him for holding Clark back at that point, seeing as there were a dozen onlookers at the time. I suppose it was a bad decision at the start - like I said, he should've sent Clark instead. That's my only complaint in any case. I respect how he was portrayed at the earlier part, even after he gently chided Clark for saving those children in the bus. I think he was a good influence on him, and actually wish there were/will be more flashbacks to Pa Kent especially when Clark's morally conflicted. Would be nice to see him as his silent moral compass, maybe even more than Ma Kent or Jor-El's cyber-image.

I think you have to remember that Clark is no older than 17 years old during this tornado scene, which means he's still a minor. You don't send your kids into harm's way, on principle alone. That's the first thing that I think most people don't pick up on. It's understandable, since Henry Cavill looks no younger than 25 here. But he's supposed to be a kid at this point. And any parent wants to protect their child.

The second thing is that neither Jonathan nor Clark know the extent of his abilities. He saved a school bus. He can take a punch. Can he survive a Category 4 tornado? Could he even outrun it? They don't know, so it would be foolish to risk the life of a 17 year old based on such baseless assumptions. I guess that's the problem of audience expectation: This Superman doesn't seem to possess Flash's speed, and his powers seem to develop over time, but the audience expects both from Donner's films.

Third, Jonathan was pretty clear earlier that exposing Clark would have a profound effect on the world, and perhaps not in the best way. There's a website that does a pretty deep analysis, but needless to say, Jonathan didn't have much cause to be optimistic. Remember, this isn't a Jonathan who grew up during the Great Depression. He grew up during the Cold War. Not exactly the most optimistic time. Sure, they could have kept him exactly the same, but I think they made the right choice in using Jonathan to represent the different world that Man of Steel depicts.

But, all that said, they did do some good things with Jonathan in the midst of the fear and warning: Jonathan taught Clark restraint, meekness, the value of ordinary compassion. Because it's not as though Jonathan didn't want Clark to help people; he just didn't want him to do it in ways that would expose who he really was, and he wanted him to wait until he was mature enough to shoulder that responsibility. In this more realistic approach, becoming a superhero isn't an obvious choice, and in Clark's case it isn't a light decision. Jonathan teaches Clark that his actions have consequences, and I think that is far more valuable a lesson than encouraging Clark to try to save everyone he can. Like that Dr. Pepper prequel comic illustrates, super powers don't equal experience, and not everything can be solved by brute force. Firefighting requires trained experts; rescue operations require trained experts. As a kid, Clark shouldn't be muddling around in everything. He's a kid!

In terms of what Man of Steel was trying to emphasize, imagine the circumstances of BvS with Congressional studies, military assessments, conniving businessmen and angry mobs, but in 1987, or 1993, or 1997. Imagine a 7-year old or 13-year old or 17-year old Clark having to face all of that, during the Cold War, or during the Bosnian conflict, or during the Rwandan genocide. Imagine an immature kid having to bear the burden of responding to those crises. Yes, there's a certain populist charm to seeing a 15-17 year old kid like Spider-Man taking on dangerous men and women. But if you take that out of a fantasy world and put it into the real world, no one would expect such a person to have the experience or judgment to act in a way that would keep them and others out of harm's way. Would you trust a 17-year old to talk a person off a ledge? To peacefully resolve a hostage crisis? To know how to stop a massive tornado? Why should we have expected Jonathan to expect such things?

I'm sorry, I've rambled too long. The point is, if we temper our expectations -- based on previous incarnations -- and line them up with this approach, which tries to conform to the real world, then I think we'll have a greater appreciation for the decisions Jonathan made.

 

[jokesonm3]

I wonder if they play it at halftime?

Probably a teaser to the trailer during the Doritos competition.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

What ever the origin of Doomsday in the film (Zombie Mutated Zod, grown from cells, a breakdown of a Kal-el duplicate) I think we still have enormous amounts of surprise in store, as Snyder said. We don't have the fullest sense of the actual story at all yet.







But Ambroyer is not going to be Hal Jordan. That is for sure.

 

[xxxxxx29]

We'll probably get it after the Super Bowl..... just doesn't make much sense to release a trailer that early in the morning, especially when it's for a big movie like Batman v Superman.

 

[DerekLake]

So he's training at the same time that Henry Cavill is training? Well, I guess he is Hal Jordan then. Or someone.

 

[Reek]

Love this. Someone needs to make a Keaton vs Reeve's one

and a Bale vs Routh one?

 

[DlAMONDZ]

Why would Warner Bros. skip the Super Bowl AND Deadpool and release the trailer on GMA Monday the 15th?
I think 15th will be tickets going on sale tbh.

Isn't it obvious? GMA > Superbowl

 

[batmanao23]

In DCEU related news, Deathstroke might be appearing soon. Arrow producer Marc Guggenheim says that Slade is off limits because DC is using him in another project

Link to that quote?

 

[souperman]

So he's training at the same time that Henry Cavill is training? Well, I guess he is Hal Jordan then. Or someone.

...near sighted, funny fist-ed boxer dude?

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

What ever the origin of Doomsday in the film (Zombie Mutated Zod, grown from cells, a breakdown of a Kal-el duplicate) I think we still have enormous amounts of surprise in store, as Snyder said. We don't have the fullest sense of the actual story at all yet.







But Ambroyer is not going to be Hal Jordan. That is for sure.

Kal-el duplicate, interesting thought actually. If that turned into Doomsday you mean right?

 

[DerekLake]

Yes! In my opinion, without hesitation, it is. Not a doubt in my mind. Watch this video:

[YT]o8R2M_nrlSA[/YT]

There is no way an image like that is inserted... especially in this amazingly conspicuous yet subtle way... into a Zack Snyder film (!) without it meaning something. The backwards "S" has always been Bizarro's symbol.

Most things in Man of Steel were easter eggs. If I recall, the original plan was to do a Superman trilogy like TDK -- as far as such trilogies are planned out at that stage. It was only later, right before release, that WB started looking at deliberately moving toward Justice League. So I wouldn't put too much stock into that as future planning. Remember, the Black Zero had Brainiac's symbol, and Lexcorp showed up, and Nolan's Wayne logo was briefly glimpsed. All were easter eggs until DCEU plans actually commenced.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

So he's training at the same time that Henry Cavill is training? Well, I guess he is Hal Jordan then. Or someone.

No. After the disappointment of the Reynolds GL film, is the contention really that Kevin Tsujihara, Charles Roven and Deborah and Zack Snyder have decided that the success of the future GREEN LANTERN franchise, something they will spend hundreds of millions of dollars on mind you, will be on the shoulders of someone with no track record worth mentioning at all in film and television? Really? Gadot was a successful model and actress that had appeared in commercial work and was in one of the most successful franchises of the last decade or more, and people gave **** fits over it. No... This ain't happening people.

 

[rogbngp]

I think you have to remember that Clark is no older than 17 years old during this tornado scene, which means he's still a minor. You don't send your kids into harm's way, on principle alone. That's the first thing that I think most people don't pick up on. It's understandable, since Henry Cavill looks no younger than 25 here. But he's supposed to be a kid at this point. And any parent wants to protect their child.

The second thing is that neither Jonathan nor Clark know the extent of his abilities. He saved a school bus. He can take a punch. Can he survive a Category 4 tornado? Could he even outrun it? They don't know, so it would be foolish to risk the life of a 17 year old based on such baseless assumptions. I guess that's the problem of audience expectation: This Superman doesn't seem to possess Flash's speed, and his powers seem to develop over time, but the audience expects both from Donner's films.

Third, Jonathan was pretty clear earlier that exposing Clark would have a profound effect on the world, and perhaps not in the best way. There's a website that does a pretty deep analysis, but needless to say, Jonathan didn't have much cause to be optimistic. Remember, this isn't a Jonathan who grew up during the Great Depression. He grew up during the Cold War. Not exactly the most optimistic time. Sure, they could have kept him exactly the same, but I think they made the right choice in using Jonathan to represent the different world that Man of Steel depicts.

But, all that said, they did do some good things with Jonathan in the midst of the fear and warning: Jonathan taught Clark restraint, meekness, the value of ordinary compassion. Because it's not as though Jonathan didn't want Clark to help people; he just didn't want him to do it in ways that would expose who he really was, and he wanted him to wait until he was mature enough to shoulder that responsibility. In this more realistic approach, becoming a superhero isn't an obvious choice, and in Clark's case it isn't a light decision. Jonathan teaches Clark that his actions have consequences, and I think that is far more valuable a lesson than encouraging Clark to try to save everyone he can. Like that Dr. Pepper prequel comic illustrates, super powers don't equal experience, and not everything can be solved by brute force. Firefighting requires trained experts; rescue operations require trained experts. As a kid, Clark shouldn't be muddling around in everything. He's a kid!

In terms of what Man of Steel was trying to emphasize, imagine the circumstances of BvS with Congressional studies, military assessments, conniving businessmen and angry mobs, but in 1987, or 1993, or 1997. Imagine a 7-year old or 13-year old or 17-year old Clark having to face all of that, during the Cold War, or during the Bosnian conflict, or during the Rwandan genocide. Imagine an immature kid having to bear the burden of responding to those crises. Yes, there's a certain populist charm to seeing a 15-17 year old kid like Spider-Man taking on dangerous men and women. But if you take that out of a fantasy world and put it into the real world, no one would expect such a person to have the experience or judgment to act in a way that would keep them and others out of harm's way. Would you trust a 17-year old to talk a person off a ledge? To peacefully resolve a hostage crisis? To know how to stop a massive tornado? Why should we have expected Jonathan to expect such things?

I'm sorry, I've rambled too long. The point is, if we temper our expectations -- based on previous incarnations -- and line them up with this approach, which tries to conform to the real world, then I think we'll have a greater appreciation for the decisions Jonathan made.

There is a really good discussion of the point you're raising about Clark being 17 in this video at about 14:30 (the whole video is wonderful actually) that posits that the scene fails to work well because Clark looks like a full grown man, rather than a teenager. I still bought into the scene with my own interpretation of what the scene is about, but I think the guy makes a good point about Clark's age for the scene.

[YT]s4KMNj76mzg[/YT]

 

[Captain Shazam]

It makes more sense to release a new trailer now than to wait until 15 since Deadpool premiers this week and would be a nice idea to attach the new trailer to it.

 

[Guts]

So he's training at the same time that Henry Cavill is training? Well, I guess he is Hal Jordan than. Or someone.

Steve Trevor.

 

[rogbngp]

fixed above post of mine

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Kal-el duplicate, interesting thought actually. If that turned into Doomsday you mean right?

T'was a theory I had after the CC trailer. It helped me square some circles or vice versa in terms of speculating given what we had seen up to then. Could it still happen? I think the probability of that decreased greatly. For some reason the very idea seems to piss some off around here, but I think they mostly have the incorrect assumption that would mean Batman is fighting "Bizarro" when that is not at all what myself and others who were advocating that speculation at the time were saying at all.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Steve Trevor.

Chris Pine is already him. Probably both past and future versions

 

[brandeezy89]

Link to that quote?

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/138822740099/any-possible-chance-of-either-slade-or-walter