BvS All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion

[BatLobster]

Bruce calls Tony Stark and tasks him with creating a new element.

 

[StraightSix]

Since they are ultimately going with the VS route there is nothing to gain from Superman beating Batman. Quite frankly it's just common sense given what MOS is capable of.

WB thinks there is a lot to gain from Batman beating Superman and making his inclusion in the Justice League seem plausible/realistic is my guess. Why would they need Batman, someone with no Super Powers in the Justice league when you have superman and all these other gods in the DC universe? Answer: Make batman beat Superman in the WF movie to show he belongs.

This will hype up Batman even more and make WB cash cow more popular (if the whole movie is done smartly and right)

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Which is what we're all afraid of.

 

[Marvin]

Batman is one of the top five most brilliant men of the planet, there is no shame in being outsmarted by him at least once. Nolan's Batman wasn't stupid, quite the opposite actually. He just wasn't a Batgod who can seemingly do anything to anyone.

I see where some people might come to that conclusion however,
he's not just not smart enough in the films, after the first film he's made to look even dumber in relation to the machinations of the antagonist. The producers just kept making the odd decision to give his moments to other people, at least when it come to dramatizing for the screen. From little things like the fear toxin antidote to having to be talked through the 3rd act battle in TDK to him getting on his knees and begging Fox to "get him back in the game". It's just odd. Then there is the issue of both of his fights with bane...the GA doesn't walk away from those thinking this is a man of high intellect being out maneuvered, I suppose I can only speak for myself there. When batman was punching away at the joker, the audience is sitting there waiting for Joker to pull out a last minute mental ace up his sleeve, with Batman....more yelling, more punching, more demanding answers.
it's just a shame.

I just don't see anyway around it in this coming scenario. They gotta make him tangibly smart, they just gotta. I dare him to even mention Lucious Fox, I will throw my shoe at the screen.

That being said, I'd personally be satisfied if we got something of Roarsach's level in the mental game. An obvious attempt is made there and he's anything but the bat god. As it stands I see Daniel Craigs bond as a far keener mind on screen than what Nolan has given us of Bruce Wayne.

 

[BatLobster]

It wasn't really an "odd" decision at all. It was all pretty clearly an attempt to humanize the character, because he is the most human superhero. And yeah, if you want drama in a movie, the villain does need to get the upper hand.

Bale's Batman definitely had "tangibly the smartest guy in the room" moments though.

"I need 10 minutes with the scene before your men contaminate it." comes to mind.

 

[kalhawj]

Since they are ultimately going with the VS route there is nothing to gain from Superman beating Batman. Quite frankly it's just common sense given what MOS is capable of.

WB thinks there is a lot to gain from Batman beating Superman and making his inclusion in the Justice League seem plausible/realistic is my guess. Why would they need Batman, someone with no Super Powers in the Justice league when you have superman and all these other gods in the DC universe? Answer: Make batman beat Superman in the WF movie to show he belongs.

This will hype up Batman even more and make WB cash cow more popular (if the whole movie is done smartly and right)

He doesn't need to Beat superman to show he belongs on the team... He can belong on the team by showing how smart he is and how well he can plan and strategist + technology. It will only make GA see how lame Superman is to get beat by a human when he's as smart as Batman (All Star Superman) is + has super powers.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Begins Batman felt, ironically, the most prepared in the trilogy. Luring the SWAT team into a room and then using the Bat-signaller comes to mind.

 

[StraightSix]

It wasn't really an "odd" decision at all. It was all pretty clearly an attempt to humanize the character, because he is the most human superhero. And yeah, if you want drama in a movie, the villain does need to get the upper hand.

Bale's Batman definitely had "tangibly the smartest guy in the room" moments though.

"I need 10 minutes with the scene before your men contaminate it." comes to mind.

-Also where he adapted Fox's sonar technology into something bigger in TDK

-Getting himself into business ventures to get a look into financial records of the mob. (detective work)

 

[StraightSix]

Begins Batman felt, ironically, the most prepared in the trilogy. Luring the SWAT team into a room and then using the Bat-signaller comes to mind.

It was the movie that represented Batman the best by far. In terms of his fighting style aka predator mode in Arkham video games. Showed him doing undercover detective work throughout the film.

Of the trilogy, Batman Begins is the film I've watched the most because it stayed true to the character more than the other 2.

-the sequel just turned into a crime drama who just happens to feature Batman.

-The last film was just a civil war movie featuring Batman and a dictator like villain.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Yeah. There are a lot of "little moments" that indicated Wayne's intellect. They just weren't as prominent as the scenes of Bale yelling.

 

[StraightSix]

^ Yeah. There are a lot of "little moments" that indicated Wayne's intellect. They just weren't as prominent as the scenes of Bale yelling.

I agree with that whole heartedly.

They were all done so subtle that the average movie watcher probably doesn't think twice about that scene and how "smart" Batman/Bruce Wayne is.

 

[BatLobster]

And that's why I always argue that Bale's Batman could've worked in a teamup movie if they wrote it that way. Those little moments could be expanded upon and take center stage. Especially since Bale had moved on from the rage part of it. There'd be some license to evolve the character a bit.

That being said, I don't want Bale back and think rebooting is the absolute right move here.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

It was the movie that represented Batman the best by far. In terms of his fighting style aka predator mode in Arkham video games. Showed him doing undercover detective work throughout the film.

Of the trilogy, Batman Begins is the film I've watched the most because it stayed true to the character more than the other 2.

-the sequel just turned into a crime drama who just happens to feature Batman.

-The last film was just a civil war movie featuring Batman and a dictator like villain.

Exactly. In Batman Begins, he's controlling the situation up until the drugs/microwave emmiter get smuggled to Gotham. Also, I'm less annoyed by Batman being overly emotional in BB. I think it's because Bruce is young and Batman's an emotional release. Now that the "freshness" of being Batman has kind of faded in TDK and TDKR, it just feels like they attached Bruce with normal human emotions.

But I don't think Bruce is normal.

Comics are great in that they can show Batman having the upper hand and slowly losing that element when an accomplished supervillain comes around. Movies are a lot more limited due to their shorter runtime.

I feel like Batman's an OFFENSIVE creature, and BB was the only film of the trilogy to depict that.

 

[BH/HHH]

Since they are ultimately going with the VS route there is nothing to gain from Superman beating Batman. Quite frankly it's just common sense given what MOS is capable of.

WB thinks there is a lot to gain from Batman beating Superman and making his inclusion in the Justice League seem plausible/realistic is my guess. Why would they need Batman, someone with no Super Powers in the Justice league when you have superman and all these other gods in the DC universe? Answer: Make batman beat Superman in the WF movie to show he belongs.

This will hype up Batman even more and make WB cash cow more popular (if the whole movie is done smartly and right)

And in the process piss off every Superman fan and make ll the hard work making Superman quote "cool and badass" go down the **** an. Just no to this, Batman doesn't need to kick Superman's ass to fit in the JL at all. Infact I'd love to know what Cavill outstay when they tel him he's gonna get a beat down by Batman. Batma pn beating Suerman would be damaging to the Superman character on film.

As for Batman I really hope we get to see some real detective work, they've barely scratched the surface of that on film.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

He should start out as an investigator (on trying to deduce who Superman is and where he goes), strategist (trying to figure out how to depower/beat/contain Superman), and criminologist (for when he figures out, it's all Luthor's doing).

That way, the range of Batman's intellect is depicted.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

As for Batman winning. No. As soon as he defeats Superman, Clark will go back to having his reputation as "uncool" for quite some time.

It should be a stalemate, or Superman should win. Batman winning is way too predictable, and would only intensify rivalry among fans.

 

[BatSpider]

It wasn't really an "odd" decision at all. It was all pretty clearly an attempt to humanize the character, because he is the most human superhero. And yeah, if you want drama in a movie, the villain does need to get the upper hand.

Bale's Batman definitely had "tangibly the smartest guy in the room" moments though.

"I need 10 minutes with the scene before your men contaminate it." comes to mind.

Sadly that was one of the only scenes where we saw a detective in the trilogy

 

[BH/HHH]

As for Batman winning. No. As soon as he defeats Superman, Clark will go back to having his reputation as "uncool" for quite some time.

It should be a stalemate, or Superman should win. Batman winning is way too predictable, and would only intensify rivalry among fans.

Totally agree, draw would be best for all in my opinion. It shouldn't end with this:

This would be a better way to end it:

Infact the best I've seen between the to was in the Smallville comic, Natan tested Superman that was the purpose of the fight. Not too long after that they became friends.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Totally agree, draw would be best for all in my opinion. It shouldn't end with this:

Draw is the definitive way to go. Fans could STILL engage with these stupid wars (Superman could have crushed Batman if he didn't stop.. Batman had the psychological upper hand and was figuring out what combos he can unleash on Superman. With a frame by frame analysis as soon as the DVD's hit the shelves) but both heroes get to avoid losing (with the inevitable backlash) and "win" by realizing that they need to come together for the greater threats.

 

[BH/HHH]

Draw is the definitive way to go. Fans could STILL engage with these stupid wars (Superman could have crushed Batman if he didn't stop.. Batman had the psychological upper hand and was figuring out what combos he can unleash on Superman. With a frame by frame analysis as soon as the DVD's hit the shelves) but both heroes get to avoid losing (with the inevitable backlash) and "win" by realizing that they need to come together for the greater threats.

I know it's a horror comedy but Freddy vs Jason did the fight in a clever way. Jason seemingly won but then Freddy winked at the camera so it left it open for the viewer to decide. Now of course they can't do an ending literally like that but the idea behind it was very well done to keep both sets of fans happy.

 

[STARMAN]

I expect a draw.

 

[NosfeRomas]

I want nothing more than a scene like in the world's finest movie where they exchange a brief talkback along with a throw (blame the kryptonite in batman's belt) and that's it ! It's all you need really also to establish that they are dramatically different you could have the one follow the ways of the other. Superman trying to interogate or learn information and Batman going easy and when these methods don't work they team up and the one completes the other.

 

[NosfeRomas]

You know I was listening to the Batman ion Film podcast and some of the stuff they were talking about got me a little worried.

Mark Hughes made a good point that the fight will most likely happen at the end of the film. Which I really hope doesn't happen as I want to see them inevitably team up to take on the villain(s).

They all seemed pretty sure that Batman is gonna give Superman an ass kicking in this too, which could just be Batman bias. I wanted to smack El Mayimbe when he said something along the lines if Batman would be able to kick Superman's butt cause he's supposedly smarter etc. I'm really worried that by having this happen (if it does) it'll just make Superman look weak. Also if this does happen at the end of the film how much I'd a downer is that for Superman? Mak Hughes said something like he thinks Bats will kick hs ass then tell him to stay out of his way etc. the thought of that makes me cringe.

All in all I guess I just don't want Superman been made to look a fool at the expensive of Batman. WBs could piss off alot of people if they don't handle the fight with care.

I am a harcore Batman fan and i used to love it when he beat the crap out of Superman (essentially 'Murica) but after watching Man of Steel for the fourth time in theatres with my mom this time i really really don't want this to happen, the movie made me fall in love with Superman and Cavill's version is so beautiful that i don't want to see it ruined just because fanboys want Batman to be a badass by beating Superman, you can define Batman's brilliant characteristics with other ways, have them being rivals yes but not for the wrong reason. America no longer has Ronald Reagan, this aint the cold war, Thatcher is dead, North Korea is really far from Gotham and Metropolis, keep politics out. I do love the conflict between Batman and Superman in the comics and the Justice Lords concept to me seems plausable but don't do that to Man of Steel, to me it would be the same as Christian Bale returning for another movie, it would negate the ending of TDKR and i would feel betrayed. If they change that beautiful person who wants to do good into a manipulated boy scout i will boycott.

 

[BH/HHH]

I want nothing more than a scene like in the world's finest movie where they exchange a brief talkback along with a throw (blame the kryptonite in batman's belt) and that's it ! It's all you need really also to establish that they are dramatically different you could have the one follow the ways of the other. Superman trying to interogate or learn information and Batman going easy and when these methods don't work they team up and the one completes the other.

It is but WBs want the fight, it's gonna be have a massive budget and they'll want that on screen simply for the fact that it'd look awesome. its an instant selling point fir the viewers. But I'd much prefer what they did in Superman TAS Worlds Finest episodes, that to me is still the greatest team up/meet between the two ever and that includes any comics.

I really wish Snyder or Goyer would come out and say something to really give the Superman fans some hope cause right now everything is just BATMAN, BATMAN, BATMAN!

 

[Marvin]

It wasn't really an "odd" decision at all. It was all pretty clearly an attempt to humanize the character, because he is the most human superhero. And yeah, if you want drama in a movie, the villain does need to get the upper hand.

Bale's Batman definitely had "tangibly the smartest guy in the room" moments though.

"I need 10 minutes with the scene before your men contaminate it." comes to mind.

I never called the decision to make him not uber odd, I said they kept giving those obvious moments to other people(fox in particular) and I found that odd. That being said you don't need to "depower" him for drama or even to make him human. It's when you make him uber that you have greater potential for dramatic stakes imo. That new bbc Sherlock is a hit, and they didn't need to "depower" him to do so. It's that moment when he turns around and realizes his been out matched that the audience is given that taste of drama/stakes on a particular scale. It's something Bruce Timm learned about in his later batman work. The villains are only as strong as the hero is presented.

Batman is a complex and cold individual, imagine the chagrin of the audience when this complex cold individual sheds a few somber tears at the end of flash point, same with Sherlock. Things are all the more impactful when they fall upon characters such as these. Batman crying? Batman Retiring? Batman killing...these things are played up big in the books because of how big batman is written over there, in these past films, it's if anything such things are expected, I mean he's just a guy.

I personally never got the sense that he was the smartest guy in the room simply because he suggested the maybe corrupted cops might contaminate the room before he got a chance at it. I honestly expect any investigator to feel the same way about a scene they aren't given first cracks at. If anything, the more uber bats approach would suggest he doesn't need a clean room to do his work. However I would concede that this guy might be the smarted in some rooms. Batman in some of these books is the smartest in most rooms not occupied by Luthor, joker or a few of the batfamily.

To each their own, I'm just hoping the batman in this movie is more along the lines of the one even in the arkham games. When it comes to cross overs, for me batman works best when he's more amazing than has been presented in these past films.

I blame Morrison

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