Answering script questions: DO NOT OPEN UNLESS YOU WANT TO SPOIL THE WHOLE MOVIE

[FrostBite]

These changes didnt fundamentally change the character, while IMO, turning Hulk into a creature who is completely and utterly careless with his strength, is a BIG change in my view, THATS the difference.

And while you might not care about the soldiers, I will, because i know what its like to lose someone, or rather accurately, have someone taken away from you, and its the most painful thing i have ever gone through, and something i wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. THIS is why Hulk being a killer (if its still in the movie of course) irks me so much.

The changes in Spidey ruined the character for me, hence why I can understand other Hulk fans not wanting this change, nor am shoving my opinion down their throats. Simply stating it.

The changes I refer to, are more personality, (which I guess would apply to Hulk as well) not "Omgz Organics shooterzz" and the like. More like I felt they took an entirely new person, and put the suit on him instead of Peter Parker. (Which is how you probably feel for the Hulk right now.)

I know what it's like to have multiple people taken from me, in a variety of ways. One of which stays with me on a daily basis as he hadn't had his life taken from someone, but his mind ravaged and stolen from a disease. Lord knows I know the pain, it's like watching someone die everyday.

I am just saying, from the point of view of someone being shot at by such a person, I most likely wouldn't care until reflecting upon it. (like someone stated from the comics earlier.)

I can see why, soliders would want to kill Hulk, as well as Hulk accidentally killing someone in the heat of battle. In this situation the soldier seems more like a bad guy to me if I think about because the scene in question Hulk kills on accident. (Or so I thought?) Where as the soldier is out right hunting someone he knows is another person. Not to mention, the fact they are probably briefed on the fact Banner has little to no control behind the scenes in this movie universe.

Either way I don't care as I can see both characters justifications for doing such things. Now if Hulk straight up picks up a civilian and snaps their neck, or steps on a baby... I'll be willing to join the other side. Because that makes him a murderer, that gives me incentive to hate him.

If someone dies by the result of an accident, I just don't care. And I'll repeat, sure I'd care if I was part of this imaginary guys family.. but I am not, I am following Hulk's story, and I am seeing everything from Bruce's/Hulk's perspective.

 

[Riddick2009]

I totally agree with you 100 percent Frostbite.

I just don't understand why people can't accept the fact that Hulk is going to end up killing people when he is fighting or escaping. He is so strong and he can knock buildings down and throw tanks and copters. The human body is so fragile and to imagine him throwing rocks, tanks or copters as I mentioned and a human not being hurt or killed is hard to imagine. What is Hulk supposed to do, run from every fight? The Soldiers know what they are getting into, that is what they signed up for. Hulk will fight back as he does in the comics but he is so strong that those people might get hurt or killed. He isn't murdering them he is just defending himself against attackers that are trying to kill him.

People say that Hulk is so powerful that the humans can't harm him. Well that may be but Hulk may not know this. I imagine tanks and copters attacking him doesn't feel to good. What if a copter is shooting missiles at him and he ***** smacks it? The pilot may get killed but that doesn't make Hulk a murderer. He was defending himself. It's not like a soldier doesn't know that he may get killed in the line of duty. it's their to be there.


If Hulk walks on a street and grabs some old man and throws him into a building then call Hulk a killer.

 

[FrostBite]

I totally agree with you 100 percent Frostbite.

I just don't understand why people can't accept the fact that Hulk is going to end up killing people when he is fighting or escaping. He is so strong and he can knock buildings down and throw tanks and copters. The human body is so fragile and to imagine him throwing rocks, tanks or copters as I mentioned and a human not being hurt or killed is hard to imagine. What is Hulk supposed to do, run from every fight? The Soldiers know what they are getting into, that is what they signed up for. Hulk will fight back as he does in the comics but he is so strong that those people might get hurt or killed. He isn't murdering them he is just defending himself against attackers that are trying to kill him.

People say that Hulk is so powerful that the humans can't harm him. Well that may be but Hulk may not know this. I imagine tanks and copters attacking him doesn't feel to good. What if a copter is shooting missiles at him and he ***** smacks it? The pilot may get killed but that doesn't make Hulk a murderer. He was defending himself. It's not like a soldier doesn't know that he may get killed in the line of duty. it's their to be there.


If Hulk walks on a street and grabs some old man and throws him into a building then call Hulk a killer.

Looking back when he completely smacked around Talbot in Ang's Hulk, I always thought Talbot should have died then and there. Let's not forget that he was just thrown through a pretty sturdy house not to mention the jade giant put his big powerful foot right against the guy and sent him flying into the ground.

But it only broke a few bones? Bah.

Don't get me wrong when I saw he was alive later I wasn't like "WTF!? Oh man now this movie is ruined for me for the lack of believeablity!" But I did think he was going to die, right then and there the first time I watched the movie.

Didn't make me think Hulk was a bad guy for that point and time though.

 

[Nivek]

Riddick, as many of us pointed out... THE. HULK. DOES. NOT. KILL.

It's how it has been established in the comic for the past 40+ years (in the characters own book, excluding badly written offshoot books). Hell, it was even a staple theme in the fricking TV show. Just because "fans" like you feel he should does not mean he will. I hope this is something the screen writers changed, because it makes as much sence as Spider-man, Batman, Superman, or the Fantastic Four killing.

Sheesh.

 

[terry78]

I hope fans aren't going with the Ultimate Hulk as the basis, because that's a whole different creature...they made him more malevolent than anything, and not an innocent at all. The Ultimates just had to persuade him to help out, reluctantly.

 

[wobbly]

Riddick, as many of us pointed out... THE. HULK. DOES. NOT. KILL.

It's how it has been established in the comic for the past 40+ years (in the characters own book, excluding badly written offshoot books). Hell, it was even a staple theme in the fricking TV show. Just because "fans" like you feel he should does not mean he will. I hope this is something the screen writers changed, because it makes as much sence as Spider-man, Batman, Superman, or the Fantastic Four killing.

Sheesh.

Yup. I don't get why fans are not only defending a possible body count, but some almost seem to want one too...

Really, they have only one argument to justify the Hulk killing: That he might be portrayed as being so bloody stupid he doesn't even know he is killing... Well, I'm sorry but a Hulk reduced to a King Kong level of intelligence and responsibility is not the Hulk at all.
Hulk, for all his anger and rage, is not some cumbersome child or some unthinking animal, he is a very moral character: He knows what he is doing and he often knows right from wrong better than those who would seek to attack him.

Bottom line is this: A body count is not needed to tell a Hulk story, the only reason for having one is if the writers have got it wrong, it's as simple as that.

Btw, I posted this in another thread but worth having it again here - This link is to a page with scans from the Hulk's own book which clarifies his current status as regards killing:

http://www.kellcom.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Hulk110.html

Point worth noting is that "Collateral Damage" (an overly cute term for what it actually means) is clearly off the table as far as the books are currently concerned. I see no reason this movie should go and ignore that.

 

[FrostBite]

Yup. I don't get why fans are not only defending a possible body count, but some almost seem to want one too...

Really, they have only one argument to justify the Hulk killing: That he might be portrayed as being so bloody stupid he doesn't even know he is killing... Well, I'm sorry but a Hulk reduced to a King Kong level of intelligence and responsibility is not the Hulk at all.
Hulk, for all his anger and rage, is not some cumbersome child or some unthinking animal, he is a very moral character: He knows what he is doing and he often knows right from wrong better than those who would seek to attack him.

Bottom line is this: A body count is not needed to tell a Hulk story, the only reason for having one is if the writers have got it wrong, it's as simple as that.

Btw, I posted this in another thread but worth having it again here - This link is to a page with scans from the Hulk's own book which clarifies his current status as regards killing:

http://www.kellcom.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Hulk110.html

Point worth noting is that "Collateral Damage" (an overly cute term for what it actually means) is clearly off the table as far as the books are currently concerned. I see no reason this movie should go and ignore that.

I don't want one, I just don't care if there is one.

And as I said, I understand everyones dislike of it, unlike everyone else though, I've been stricken with too many changes with too many movies for them to be ruined for me now.

Spider-man wasn't comic Spider-man, Transformers was nothing like I remember, Batman is nothing like I want.. or should I say his villains arn't. Ang's Hulk wasn't what I wanted, none of these movies followed 40+ years of established character... (Well I can't say 40 years for Transformers.) Yet if they were good movies, people drooled all over them and went "OMGZ IT WAS EXACTLY TEH WAYZ I REMEMBERS!" and praised the directors like gods. Go look at the Nolanites the man could sell them his feces in a box and they would go gah gah over it.

So when it comes down to it, it doesn't surprise me, so it doesn't bother me. I'm going to walk in there, wipe my mind clean of what I know of the Hulk, and try to enjoy the movie as a completely new interpretation. If it sucks as a movie, then you'll hear me complain.

Going to a movie and complaining that it differs in a way from what you loved in the past is kind of like someone looking at the Ulimate Spider-man series and going "What? Peter's a kid for this series? MAN THIS SUCKS! Cleary he is supposed to be a teen-going into adulthood!"

All the while I still continue to wonder why one stupid issue has been dragged on and on for pages on end, completely hijacking a thread.

We get it, some like the idea, some hate the idea, some like myself just don't give a rats ***. When all the meanwhile we don't even know if it is even still in the film!

 

[Ahura Mazda]

I agree. As soon as you have the Hulk kill, you make him into an entity that needs to be put away. The Hulk is a very powerful creature that wants to do what is right even though he wants to be left alone.

If he kills even unintentionally, what makes him different from the Abomination who kills albeit intentionally.

 

[FrostBite]

If he kills even unintentionally, what makes him different from the Abomination who kills albeit intentionally.

Okay, so, if a bush is hiding a stop sign in my city, I don't see it, go right through and BAM! I slam into the side of a car before I even know whats happening, the driver is killed.

I just killed someone. But unintentionally. Chances are, it's going to weigh on my consiousness, haunt me day and night, and play games with my concience for the rest of my life.

But you would compare me with someone who straight up sneaks into a persons house and slits their throat? Someone with the intention of taking a life?



...That is quite possibly one of the stupidest concepts my mind has ever tried to wrap itself around.

 

[TOUGHINGTON]

but he may well kill abom in the movie

 

[FrostBite]

but he may well kill abom in the movie

NO! We need to preserve his squeaky clean hero image! If he kills a monster he IS a monster!

Don't you get why every villian killed themselves in the Spider-man films!?

 

[wobbly]

NO! We need to preserve his squeaky clean hero image! If he kills a monster he IS a monster!

Don't you get why every villian killed themselves in the Spider-man films!?

I can live with him killing Abomination as he is at least an equally matched foe: fighting Abom with his full power is fair game, so if he has no other choice but to kill Abomination to stop him (though I can easily think of a number of ways they could avoid this scenario too) as long as we don't get the limb-ripping, fist through head sadism of the Ultimate version, that would be just about acceptable to me.

Killing humans, even in 'self-defense', only works if you diminish him of responsibility and you can only do this by reducing his intelligence to that of a ******ed child or that of a animal. Anyone who feels either of those options is a good way of 'interpreting' the Hulk just does not get the character at all.

 

[FrostBite]

I can live with him killing Abomination as he is at least an equally matched foe: fighting Abom with his full power is fair game, so if he has no other choice but to kill Abomination to stop him (though I can easily think of a number of ways they could avoid this scenario too) as long as we don't get the limb-ripping, fist through head sadism of the Ultimate version, that would be just about acceptable to me.

Killing humans, even in 'self-defense', only works if you diminish him of responsibility and you can only do this by reducing his intelligence to that of a ******ed child or that of a animal. Anyone who feels either of those options is a good way of 'interpreting' the Hulk just does not get the character at all.

While I did spout out "Awesome!" when he tore Wolvie in half... I do have to agree I don't want to see anymore of the Ultimate version. His violence isn't needed in a movie families are most like going to see together anyway.

Well no offense, but early incarnations of the Hulk, I never thought to be the smartest of beings. Hulk in WWH seems like a freaking genius compared to others.

I actually like the idea of him gaining intelligence throughout a series. With him being a few twigs short of a bundle in the begining.

As for him killing Abomination... I just want to see it. I am really sick of the squeaky clean hero image. I mean I don't want a hero to full out murder a foe, but I do want to see them defeat them, rather than... Norman stabbing himself on accident cuz Spidey jumps, or Doc Ock goes "You listen to ME NOW!!!" and drowns himself.

I just don't like how they have to dance around the bad guys deaths.

 

[wobbly]

While I did spout out "Awesome!" when he tore Wolvie in half... I do have to agree I don't want to see anymore of the Ultimate version. His violence isn't needed in a movie families are most like going to see together anyway.

Well no offense, but early incarnations of the Hulk, I never thought to be the smartest of beings. Hulk in WWH seems like a freaking genius compared to others.

I actually like the idea of him gaining intelligence throughout a series. With him being a few twigs short of a bundle in the begining.

As for him killing Abomination... I just want to see it. I am really sick of the squeaky clean hero image. I mean I don't want a hero to full out murder a foe, but I do want to see them defeat them, rather than... Norman stabbing himself on accident cuz Spidey jumps, or Doc Ock goes "You listen to ME NOW!!!" and drowns himself.

I just don't like how they have to dance around the bad guys deaths.

With the limb ripping I was referring to how brutally the Ultimate Hulk literally tears Abomination limb from limb in 'The Ultimates' more than the Wolverine pic (that one did make me smile too I must admit, but hell...that was Wolverine finally getting his due from the Hulk).

On the intelligence: He is (or was prior to WWH's conclusion) at about the same level he was to begin with. It was the more child-like 'Hulk Smash' persona that developed over time and that has hardly been seen in the books since the late 80's.

Regarding Spider-Man: the Goblins death was spot on for me, that's exactly how it happened in the books (since been undone but there you go). Doc Ock..Yeah, that didnt sit right with me. Not that I wanted Spidey to kill him but I didn't see why they had to have him die either - Likewise with Eddie Brock, his death wasn't nessescary, though you cant say Peter doesn't intentionally kill the symbiote

 

[FrostBite]

On the intelligence: He is (or was prior to WWH's conclusion) at about the same level he was to begin with. It was the more child-like 'Hulk Smash' persona that developed over time and that has hardly been seen in the books since the late 80's.

Regarding Spider-Man: the Goblins death was spot on for me, that's exactly how it happened in the books (since been undone but there you go). Doc Ock..Yeah, that didnt sit right with me. Not that I wanted Spidey to kill him but I didn't see why they had to have him die either - Likewise with Eddie Brock, his death wasn't nessescary, though you cant say Peter doesn't intentionally kill the symbiote

Oh okay, gotcha, you see I am merely a child (18) so you'd have to forgive my ignorance to earlier issues I only have a few . Had no idea the child like persona was developed over time. But I do admit, I happen to like it. That was it was 2 halves, Bruce, all brains and no brawn, and Hulk all brawn no brains. (Well not no, but you get my point.)

Gobby's death didn't really bother me as much, I mean, it was my first time seeing a Spidey movie, and I do understand it was lifted from the pages... but it was the fact that after the first and second I kind of knew "Heh, the bad guys going to kill himself in the third isn't he?" ...and in a way he did.

I would have prefered, since I figure these characters could last quite awhile through sequals to see the villains defeated, maybe locked away in some huge maximum security center, maybe set them up for some esemble thing. (that way they are already developed unlike in SP3)

Hulk's villains on the other hand.. well at least as far as Abomination is concerned, I DO feel would need to be killed off. To big of a risk to humanity for the Hulk to leave him alive. (Even IF they don't go with the smart thinking Abomination, his still huge in this film, menacing and callous. Not just a guy with robot arms, or enhanced strength.)

 

[Nivek]

If anyone ever needs a good example of doing the Hulk wrong, read any Hulk book edited by Axel Alonso. The guy is clueless and is someone I never want to see on the title or any Hulk book ever again.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Okay, so, if a bush is hiding a stop sign in my city, I don't see it, go right through and BAM! I slam into the side of a car before I even know whats happening, the driver is killed.

I just killed someone. But unintentionally. Chances are, it's going to weigh on my consiousness, haunt me day and night, and play games with my concience for the rest of my life.

But you would compare me with someone who straight up sneaks into a persons house and slits their throat? Someone with the intention of taking a life?



...That is quite possibly one of the stupidest concepts my mind has ever tried to wrap itself around.

I think you missed the consept entirely because you are basing it on someone who has clear intentions and careful thought process. The Hulk how he seems to be portrayed here has an empty mind full of rage. He would not kill intentionally but he would not stop his movements to avoid killing. he Abomination the way he is portrayed is killing those who attacked him.

They are both acting in self defense in a way. One just uses more lethal force. The Hulk may not be as bad but to the bystander there would not be much difference.

 

[FrostBite]

I think you missed the consept entirely because you are basing it on someone who has clear intentions and careful thought process. The Hulk how he seems to be portrayed here has an empty mind full of rage. He would not kill intentionally but he would not stop his movements to avoid killing. he Abomination the way he is portrayed is killing those who attacked him.

They are both acting in self defense in a way. One just uses more lethal force. The Hulk may not be as bad but to the bystander there would not be much difference.

Difference is, to my knowledge Abomination is NOT working in self defense, he becomes Abomination, and rampages through town. That's it. He intentionally goes out of his way to wreak havoc.

Hulk on the other hand is more a less coming out to protect Banner in several of these enouncters, becuase the military just won't leave him alone.

Big. Difference.

Not to mention the whole bystander argument REALLY doesn't matter. Again as I stated earlier to someone else.. in real life, we wouldn't know the Hulk's story, we wouldn't sympathize, and as the big green smashing monster he is... we would ALL want him dead. The beauty of this story whether in comic form, TV or movies, is you are allowing yourself to sympathize with an otherwise danger to society because you know his plight.

 

[strikezone89]

ima call bs on this guy saying he read the script

 

[Sarg92]

ima call bs on this guy saying he read the script

No, it's true. He has read the First Draft of the Script written by Edward Norton.

 

[terry78]

That's why I felt having Rick Jones in the film would have worked had it already not been piled on with characters. Having a human that knows Hulk and who Hulk actually does not view as a threat aside from Betty would be interesting.

 

[wobbly]

If anyone ever needs a good example of doing the Hulk wrong, read any Hulk book edited by Axel Alonso. The guy is clueless and is someone I never want to see on the title or any Hulk book ever again.

He was editor through Bruce Jones' crappy run wasn't he?

Yeah, that did suck. So much so Marvel have allowed most, if not all of it to be ret-conned out of existence.

Sadly, Ed Norton says he loved it...we can also tell this from his use of 'Mr Green' over the internet (that was a Jones idea) and having Betty shacked up with Doc Samson (another one of Jones' gems)...

 

[Sarg92]

He was editor through Bruce Jones' crappy run wasn't he?

Yeah, that did suck. So much so Marvel have allowed most, if not all of it to be ret-conned out of existence.

Sadly, Ed Norton says he loved it...we can also tell this from his use of 'Mr Green' over the internet (that was a Jones idea) and having Betty shacked up with Doc Samson (another one of Jones' gems)...

One thing I find weird is that Zak Penn and Ed Norton both said they really liked Bruce Jones' run and will be using ideas from it in the movie.

Maybe it was just Marvel who wanted stuff from his run to be in this movie and Norton and Penn went along with it.

 

[wobbly]

One thing I find weird is that Zak Penn and Ed Norton both said they really liked Bruce Jones' run and will be using ideas from it in the movie.

Maybe it was just Marvel who wanted stuff from his run to be in this movie and Norton and Penn went along with it.

Since Marvel allowed the writer who followed Jones to immediately ret-con his run I don't think that is very likely.

No, I think both Penn & Norton like it because it was far more about Banner than the it ever was the Hulk, who only showed up sometimes.
From a cinematic pov, I guess that kind of heavy imbalance suits them: Gives Norton as the lead actor the lions share of the screen time (which suits him) and is undoubtedly a lot cheaper (which suits the suits).

 

[FrostBite]

Since Marvel allowed the writer who followed Jones to immediately ret-con his run I don't think that is very likely.

No, I think both Penn & Norton like it because it was far more about Banner than the it ever was the Hulk, who only showed up sometimes.
From a cinematic pov, I guess that kind of heavy imbalance suits them: Gives Norton as the lead actor the lions share of the screen time (which suits him) and is undoubtedly a lot cheaper (which suits the suits).

Now I only read the book (Bruce Jones wise) "Return of the Monster" that was a Bruce Jones book right? I kinda liked it... did they just get really bad or am I just in bad taste?

Alas, probably the latter.

I can understand the want for a Banner-centric movie. Just as Spidey 2 was far more Peter than Spidey. It gives time for a character to grow, and since these movies will PROBABLY only be 1hr 30 mins like Iron Man.. I think growing Banner is what they need.