Avengers 1-4 vs The Dark Knight Trilogy

Avengers 1-4 or The Dark Knight Trilogy


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Small things are part of execution. I have bigger problems with the story as well, but these small issues like i said many times add up and contribute to the film as a whole. The film as a whole falls flat. I can overlook small details of the film has enough good for me to overlook the flaws. This movie just doesn't for me, so these stand out.

I'm not going to ask exactly what these issues are because odds are I've heard them before but I will say that I don't think the story at the heart of Rises (Bruce Wayne's journey towards appreciating life) should be discounted because of things like not showing how Bruce snuck past a couple of Bane's men to get back into Gotham. I see no real problem with the specific execution of that emotional core.

Not even remotely the same. Loki sought to bring an army to rule the world. Ultron was trying to destroy it so it could evolve into machines. Completely different.

They're still both MacGuffins and they're both being used to "take over the world". The difference isn't as big as you say. Neither is what Bane's doing but that's the whole point, His purpose in the movie is to "fulfill Ras Al Ghul's destiny" afterall.
 
I'm not going to ask exactly what these issues are because odds are I've heard them before but I will say that I don't think the story at the heart of Rises (Bruce Wayne's journey towards appreciating life) should be discounted because of things like not showing how Bruce snuck past a couple of Bane's men to get back into Gotham. I see no real problem with the specific execution of that emotional core.

How Bruce got back into Gotham is not even one of my issues with the movie. But yes, my story issues have been stated prior several times, and they're not small. Again, Bruce's story didn't work for me the same way it did for you, so that's not really a value call for me.

They're still both MacGuffins and they're both being used to "take over the world". The difference isn't as big as you say. Neither is what Bane's doing but that's the whole point, His purpose in the movie is to "fulfill Ras Al Ghul's destiny" afterall.

Right, Bane and Talia are telling me a story I already saw. Loki and Ultron have completely different goals and the climaxes of both those movies are way more different from each other than BB and TDKR. Again, feel free to disagree, but watching those movies, it felt all too samey.
 
How Bruce got back into Gotham is not even one of my issues with the movie. But yes, my story issues have been stated prior several times, and they're not small. Again, Bruce's story didn't work for me the same way it did for you, so that's not really a value call for me.

Really? When it comes to discussing TDKR's "problems", That's usually among the forefront.

The ironic thing is that in my opinion, Age of Ultron feels way more like the movie you're trying to paint Rises as. To me it has substantially bigger problems like the extremely half-assed "redemption" of Scarlet Witch, the dull as dishwater version of Quicksilver, the Awkward Hulk/Black Widow romance, shoving Vision into the beginning of the movies final act and Ultron's complete lack of effectiveness as a villain. It also never really felt like a big deal when just looked at as a movie, It felt more like a filler episode of a tv show. Like what are the character arcs? who learns what in this movie? I couldn't say.

Right, Bane and Talia are telling me a story I already saw.

Bane's trying to torture Bruce Wayne by forcing him to watch as he slowly destroys Gotham piece by piece and forcing him to realize the depths of his failure in trying to improve it I think puts enough of a new spin on it to keep it from feeling recycled wholesale.

Are the climaxes of the Avengers movies really that "different" from each other? They both feature them fighting a stock drone army to stop a doomsday device complete with comedy Hulk beatdown. That's way more samey to me.
 
Really? When it comes to discussing TDKR's "problems", That's usually among the forefront.

The ironic thing is that in my opinion, Age of Ultron feels way more like the movie you're trying to paint Rises as. To me it has substantially bigger problems like the extremely half-assed "redemption" of Scarlet Witch, the dull as dishwater version of Quicksilver, the Awkward Hulk/Black Widow romance, shoving Vision into the beginning of the movies final act and Ultron's complete lack of effectiveness as a villain. It also never really felt like a big deal when just looked at as a movie, It felt more like a filler episode of a tv show. Like what are the character arcs? who learns what in this movie? I couldn't say.


I disagree with much of your Age of Ultron assessment. At the end of the day, I would much rather watch it than TDKR. I actually enjoy AoU, and I think it gets better with age.


Bane's trying to torture Bruce Wayne by forcing him to watch as he slowly destroys Gotham piece by piece and forcing him to realize the depths of his failure in trying to improve it I think puts enough of a new spin on it to keep it from feeling recycled wholesale.

Are the climaxes of the Avengers movies really that "different" from each other? They both feature them fighting a stock drone army to stop a doomsday device complete with comedy Hulk beatdown. That's way more samey to me.

The staging is completely different. In the case of TDKR, the entire Bane torturing Gotham thing just felt like padding. Instead of giving Bane a compelling plan, he spouts nonsense and ushers this faux revolution because the plot needed Batman to heal. It's ultimately meaningless. At least, that is how I see it.
 
I disagree with much of your Age of Ultron assessment. At the end of the day, I would much rather watch it than TDKR. I actually enjoy AoU, and I think it gets better with age.

It felt like Joss Whedon was struggling to make a movie amidst studio interference and working within the shared universe model. In fact, It doesn't really feel like a movie to me at all, just a collection of scenes and plot points. Say what you will about Rises but it actually feels like a movie with emotional weight and stakes.

In the case of TDKR, the entire Bane torturing Gotham thing just felt like padding. Instead of giving Bane a compelling plan, he spouts nonsense and ushers this faux revolution because the plot needed Batman to heal.

I don't know about that, Bane wanting to torture Bruce by making watch as he destroys Gotham slowly is pretty damn compelling and chilling honestly, more so than Ultron's flying island plan.
 
It felt like Joss Whedon was struggling to make a movie amidst studio interference and working within the shared universe model. In fact, It doesn't really feel like a movie to me at all, just a collection of scenes and plot points. Say what you will about Rises but it actually feels like a movie with emotional weight and stakes.

Is AoU a perfect film? By no means, no it is not. Thor's trip to the spa and that subplot is dumb and yes, stinks of interference. Honestly, that's the only element I find egregious in it. TDKR doesn't have these type of franchise building detours, but it is padded and the story is nonsensical at many points. Again, I have several story issues with the movie.

I don't know about that, Bane wanting to torture Bruce by making watch as he destroys Gotham slowly is pretty damn compelling and chilling honestly, more so than Ultron's flying island plan.

Honestly, I think the bomb was the worst element of the movie. It renders Bane's plan meaningless to me. It makes the movie stink of having apocalyptic stuff happening, but in a "plausible" way, so it can build this sense of hopelessness and give the bad guy some wins before Batman heals and fight him. I honestly wish this movie had stuck with the civil unrest stuff and make Bane destroying Gotham more ideological and less literal and killing time. Then this movie would have been much better to me and addressed several key issues I have with the story. It is not the only story problem I have, but it is the biggest one. As it stands, Bane just isn't interesting to me once we get to this portion of the movie. It's all a trick to make the film sound deeper than it is. Heck, if you blink, you miss Bane's death!

Ultron had an ethos and the flying city was both cool and said something about him. Whedon gets what he wanted out of the movie, while I think TDKR fails Bane.
 
TDKR doesn't have these type of franchise building detours, but it is padded and the story is nonsensical at many points. Again, I have several story issues with the movie.

The story of TDKR is honestly pretty straight forward all things considered. Yeah it has things that'd never happen in the real world but I never found them any more "egregious" or "nonsensical" than anything from the previous two movies, or hell anything in movies period. I mean TDK has Batman kidnap a chinese national from his own country without the goverment making any demands to get him back. It's by no means a flaw but it definitely made it clear to me that their not set in the real world.

Honestly, I think the bomb was the worst element of the movie. It renders Bane's plan meaningless to me. It makes the movie stink of having apocalyptic stuff happening, but in a "plausible" way, so it can build this sense of hopelessness and give the bad guy some wins before Batman heals and fight him.

I really don't see the big deal of any of what you put down especially since the movie makes it painfully clear from the very beginning that Bane is not a genuine revolutionary who actually wants to give Gotham back to the people. The bomb is really just a means to ensure the government doesn't invade the city en masse with their troops. Without it, How does Bane conduct his faux revolution without interference? Again the point is to torture Bruce by driving Gotham to madness, what you say is "padding" is the entire point.

It's all a trick to make the film sound deeper than it is.

You mean like Ultron's pretentious speeches about humanity needing to evolve when he really just wants to kill everyone?

Whedon gets what he wanted out of the movie, while I think TDKR fails Bane.

Problem is that he's made Ultron such a joke at this point that it doesn't really matter, especially since he never at any point actually convinces that the Avengers are in any actual danger from him.
 
The story of TDKR is honestly pretty straight forward all things considered. Yeah it has things that'd never happen in the real world but I never found them any more "egregious" or "nonsensical" than anything from the previous two movies, or hell anything in movies period. I mean TDK has Batman kidnap a chinese national from his own country without the goverment making any demands to get him back. It's by no means a flaw but it definitely made it clear to me that their not set in the real world.



I really don't see the big deal of any of what you put down especially since the movie makes it painfully clear from the very beginning that Bane is not a genuine revolutionary who actually wants to give Gotham back to the people. The bomb is really just a means to ensure the government doesn't invade the city en masse with their troops. Without it, How does Bane conduct his faux revolution without interference? Again the point is to torture Bruce by driving Gotham to madness, what you say is "padding" is the entire point.

Exactly, Bane is not a revolutionary. So why should I care about his revolution? Why even have it? Why not build the foundation of your film on something that feels less forced, less of a time killer, and is more in line with Bane. Again, he could blow up Gotham whenever. He only doesn't because we need him to fight Batman. No other reason.


You mean like Ultron's pretentious speeches about humanity needing to evolve when he really just wants to kill everyone?

All of Nolan's Batman films are built on pretentious speeches, lol. Often times they spoke in pretense. So, if we're going to criticize Ultron, let's also be fair and look at the competition here.
Problem is that he's made Ultron such a joke at this point that it doesn't really matter, especially since he never at any point actually convinces that the Avengers are in any actual danger from him.

I don't think Ultron was a joke, but agree to disagree. Again, it's a matter of opinion.
 
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I don't think Ultron was a joke, but agree to disagree. Again, it's a matter of opinion.

Don't get me wrong James Spader was fine but too much of his dialogue was wasted on jokes and corny humor. The Avengers smashing him to pieces over and over didn't exactly do much to inspire feelings of terror either.
 
Don't get me wrong James Spader was fine but too much of his dialogue was wasted on jokes and corny humor. The Avengers smashing him to pieces over and over didn't exactly do much to inspire feelings of terror either.

Which is fine, opinions differ. I can understand this point of view, but that said... Age of Ultron is still a much better movie to me. For me, it succeeds and what it wants to be overall, while TDKR thinks it is this transcendent piece of cinema, when it reality it is just a pretty dumb Batman movie that is padded as heck and ultimately unsatisfying. I get people are very protective of this movie, but for me... it just kind of sucks.

I know I encur the wrath of the Nolan contigent on here everytime I decide to come back to this debate. But it doesn't bother me. People can love it if they want. We just won't agree.
 
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Which is fine, opinions differ. I can understand this point of view, but that said... Age of Ultron is still a much better movie to me. For me, it succeeds and what it wants to be overall, while TDKR thinks it is this transcendent piece of cinema, when it reality it is just a pretty dumb Batman movie that is padded as heck and ultimately unsatisfying. I get people are very protective of this movie, but for me... it just kind of sucks.

I know I encur the wrath of the Nolan contigent on here everytime I decide to come back to this debate. But it doesn't bother me. People can love it if they want. We just won't agree.

I may regret asking but how exactly does Rises think its a "transcendent piece of cinema"? Because I found it to be pretty straight-forward with a very clear idea of what it wanted to be which was the conclusion of Bruce Wayne's story. Age of Ultron by comparison felt all over the place and in my opinion, The scenes with Hawkeye's family felt way more like padding than anything in Rises.

As for being "unsatisfying", I'm sorry but the ending of the movie is one of the best endings in Superhero movies period. It probably "does nothing or you" but to me it's easily on par with anything in Endgame.
 
I may regret asking but how exactly does Rises think its a "transcendent piece of cinema"? Because I found it to be pretty straight-forward with a very clear idea of what it wanted to be which was the conclusion of Bruce Wayne's story. Age of Ultron by comparison felt all over the place and in my opinion, The scenes with Hawkeye's family felt way more like padding than anything in Rises.

As for being "unsatisfying", I'm sorry but the ending of the movie is one of the best endings in Superhero movies period. It probably "does nothing or you" but to me it's easily on par with anything in Endgame.

You can tell by the dialogue and pretentious speeches that the movie thinks it is super deep. In general, Nolan treats all his films like high art. Normally, I agree with him. TDKR is not on of those times.

And yeah you're right....the ending does nothing for me and i don't really consider anything in that movie as a top shelf CBM moment. Seen plenty of better trilogy cappers. Endgame and TDKR for me ain't remotely a contest. Endgame was best experience I had in a cinema.
 
You can tell by the dialogue and pretentious speeches that the movie thinks it is super deep. In general, Nolan treats all his films like high art. Normally, I agree with him. TDKR is not on of those times.

And yeah you're right....the ending does nothing for me and i don't really consider anything in that movie as a top shelf CBM moment. Seen plenty of better trilogy cappers. Endgame and TDKR for me ain't remotely a contest. Endgame was best experience I had in a cinema.

You may have to refresh my memory but I can't really recall any "pretentious speeches/dialogue" in Rises off the top of my head (I found Vision pretty pretentious in AOU honestly). As said before, It's a story about a man who wants to die finding the will to live again and you really haven't told me how you believe that specific part of the story is executed poorly.

To me the plane scene in the opening, the sewer fight, Bruce returning as Batman and Bruce making the leap out of the pit are all top shelf comic book moments. Age of Ultron I remember for all the wrong reasons (Quicksilver's awful accent, Ultron getting his new body stolen because he can't defeat Cap one on one, Black Widow calling her self a monster because she got sterilized, The revelation that Hawkeye lives in a hallmark commercial, Tony Stark saying "nonce", Thor's spa scene)

This debate has really made wonder how you would have concluded TDK trilogy if you were in Nolan's place though.
 
You may have to refresh my memory but I can't really recall any "pretentious speeches/dialogue" in Rises off the top of my head (I found Vision pretty pretentious in AOU honestly). As said before, It's a story about a man who wants to die finding the will to live again and you really haven't told me how you believe that specific part of the story is executed poorly.

To me the plane scene in the opening, the sewer fight, Bruce returning as Batman and Bruce making the leap out of the pit are all top shelf comic book moments. Age of Ultron I remember for all the wrong reasons (Quicksilver's awful accent, Ultron getting his new body stolen because he can't defeat Cap one on one, Black Widow calling her self a monster because she got sterilized, The revelation that Hawkeye lives in a hallmark commercial, Tony Stark saying "nonce", Thor's spa scene)

This debate has really made wonder how you would have concluded TDK trilogy if you were in Nolan's place though.

If it were me making the movie, I would have had Batman operating as a crime fighter fighting both criminals and the police force hell bent to take him down. Not sure who I would have ran with for villain of film, but it would have been a war on 2 fronts for Batman. But I don't have a fully fleshed out idea or anything.. But them not doing that is not why I hated the movie. I don't get bothered if a movie turns out different than I expected or wanted. This movie could have worked if it was executed better in general. But they did a lot of things that were just....dumb.

The plane scene and the sewer were cool. The pit did nothing for me, especially once that major twist gets revealed. Hated Talia's execution in the movie, as well. So that revelation makes the pit thing, which already I didn't think was even that great, worse.

Last thing I will say on the AoU points you brought up is again....didn't hate any of that. Again outside of Thor in hotter, I liked it. Not much else for me.to add than that.
 
Does anyone feel that some fans tend to make the Nolan movies more restrictive than they ever actually were? They still had things like an ancient ninja order responsible for the Great London Fire, technology like the microwave emitter and the sonar device and Joker being able to fill entire buildings with explosives with no one being the wiser.

It's why the complaints about the final movie somehow "flying in the face of the realism" established in the first two have always rung hollow to me.
 
His purpose in the movie is to "fulfill Ras Al Ghul's destiny" afterall.

Why does Bane want to do that after Ra's expelled him and apparently prevented him from being with Talia?

Like what are the character arcs? who learns what in this movie? I couldn't say.

I agree there's not much to the characters' stories, let alone the story of their relationships. Tony shows himself to be paranoid and pretty untrustworthy but there aren't really much reaction to, definitely no learning from it. Captain America considers that he might like to fight for the sake of fighting and that possibility is really not resolved, just dropped. And yes Scarlet Witch gets a very quick, sudden, unsatisfying redemption without enough dealt-with consequences for her actions.

Bane's trying to torture Bruce Wayne by forcing him to watch as he slowly destroys Gotham piece by piece and forcing him to realize the depths of his failure in trying to improve it I think puts enough of a new spin on it to keep it from feeling recycled wholesale.

I don't think Bruce would be surprised or disappointing that there was decline from criminals being released en masse, as for the mass public becoming corrupt, supporting Bane and his revolution he would be disappointed, disillusioned by that but the film didn't really or clearly show that happening, it felt more like Bane was just supported by the soldiers he had from the beginning.
 
You mean like Ultron's pretentious speeches about humanity needing to evolve when he really just wants to kill everyone?

His story, development, motivations sure were very rushed.

All of Nolan's Batman films are built on pretentious speeches, lol. Often times they spoke in pretense. So, if we're going to criticize Ultron, let's also be fair and look at the competition here.

I thought somehow, while (or maybe because of) being basic and without a lot of speechifying Ra's critiques and visions were pretty compelling, the film made convincing and compelling both how corrupt Gotham was, how corrupt and wasteful societies tended to be, that there was a case for that there had to be and needed to be destruction for balance and more survival. Joker's critiques were a little compelling, could have been a lot more so, but I think not very effective because he was so insincere and dismiss-able.
 
Ultron wasnt pretentious or at least not any more than thanos
 
Does anyone feel that some fans tend to make the Nolan movies more restrictive than they ever actually were? They still had things like an ancient ninja order responsible for the Great London Fire, technology like the microwave emitter and the sonar device and Joker being able to fill entire buildings with explosives with no one being the wiser.

It's why the complaints about the final movie somehow "flying in the face of the realism" established in the first two have always rung hollow to me.

For me, The Dark Knight is where it loses the plot. The microwave transmitter is something I could accept in, say, a Die Hard movie. I'm no scientist. Someone could have told me that technology actually existed, and I'd just have to shrug, because I don't know. On the other hand, I know instinctively that Dent's face does not add up. As messed up as he is, there's just no way he's walking around town like nothing happened, never mind surviving a car accident and going about his business. And how is his eye okay? How is it not red as s*** from having no eyelid to protect it? It got better after the hospital when it should have deteriorated.

It's not just about what's possible, though. What I appreciated about Batman Begins was that it helped sell me on the idea of superheroes being real by explaining things in real world terms. Batman dresses like a bat because he's afraid of bats. Wayne Manor is over a batcave because it was used in the underground railroad. The Tumbler comes from Wayne Enterprises' military development. That it let me know these things didn't technically make what I was seeing more possible, because these explanations could exist hypothetically without them being brought up, but the context provided helped me buy into it, and at the same time it was interesting seeing real world explanations for Batman iconography, which helped to justify the grounded approach for me.

Then with The Dark Knight, it's like, why does he dress like a clown? Well, he's not going to tell you that. How does he get the explosives on the ferry? He just does. They stopped trying, and I stopped caring. I don't think it hurts anything that The Dark Knight Rises wasn't realistic, since TDK already went there. Well, it was stupid that Batman went to the trouble of putting gasoline or whatever on the bridge so he could light it up when he's supposed to be sneaking around without the League knowing about it, but other than that I liked that it was having more fun with its implausibility than The Dark Knight did. I just don't think it's as good otherwise.
 
Then with The Dark Knight, it's like, why does he dress like a clown? Well, he's not going to tell you that. They stopped trying, and I stopped caring.

I don't understand this reasoning. Why do you need it explained to you why a psychopath chooses to dress like a clown in order for it to be plausible or grounded? In what way is it implausible if they don't give you any specifics why a lunatic would do that? With Batman you need that explanation as to why a millionaire would go out there and risk his life the way he does to stop crime. That generally goes for all heroes. To root for them and understand why they are putting their life on the line to help people, you find out what drives them.

For someone like the Joker, he has always been a character that thrives on the less is more approach. But if you paid attention the movie does give you hints why he does the clown approach. In the very opening scene you hear his men talking about how he wears make up in order to scare people like war paint. Then both the tales Joker tells you about how he got his scars heavily imply that whether its because of his father or his wife, he was getting a permanent smile on his face for them because his father thought he was being too serious - Why so Serious? Or in his wife's case she claimed he worried too much and he ought to smile more. You don't need them to draw you a picture on where the link between the perma smile and the clown motif came from.

That was not them just not caring. That was a deliberate creative decision to not delve into the Joker's background because they wanted him to be mysterious. The unknown is scary. He was supposed to be an absolute;

"To me, the Joker is an absolute," Nolan explained. "There are no shades of gray to him – maybe shades of purple. He's unbelievably dark. He bursts in just as he did in the comics."

Christopher Nolan movies in order: The Dark Knight (2008)

"He’s like the shark in Jaws,” Nolan explains. “The Joker cuts through the film, he’s incredibly important, but he’s not a guy with a backstory. He’s a wild card.”

Chris Nolan Says The Joker is Like the Shark in 'Jaws' - ComingSoon.net
 
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I don't understand this reasoning. Why do you need it explained to you why a psychopath chooses to dress like a clown in order for it to be plausible or grounded? In what way is it implausible if they don't give you any specifics why a lunatic would do that? With Batman you need that explanation as to why a millionaire would go out there and risk his life the way he does to stop crime. That generally goes for all heroes. To root for them and understand why they are putting their life on the line to help people, you find out what drives them.

The battle of superheroes and supervillains are generally implausible. To make them believable at the level that Batman Begins succeeded takes grounding it in concrete details that are themselves believable. It makes it feel more real. Me being able to come up with reasons why he's messed up and would dress like a clown isn't the same as the movie having these reasons underpinning its story.

But if you paid attention the movie does give you hints why he does the clown approach. In the very opening scene you hear his men talking about how he wears make up in order to scare people like war paint. Then both the tales Joker tells you about how he got his scars heavily imply that whether its because of his father or his wife, he was getting a permanent smile on his face for them because his father thought he was being too serious - Why so Serious? Or in his wife's case she claimed he worried too much and he ought to smile more. You don't need them to draw you a picture on where the link between the perma smile and the clown motif came from.

Hints isn't what I'm talking about, and that guy explaining the clown makeup is relaying what he heard. The impression I get from the scene is that he believes The Joker is motivated like the other robbers by making money. If they thought he was a crazy anarchist, they wouldn't work with him at all, so naturally they assume a pragmatic reason for the makeup. The Joker himself is, as you said, mysterious, therefore unexplained, therefore not grounding the material. It's just a reversal of Batman '89 where The Joker is up front and Batman is mysterious, except even there you learn the event that led to Batman.

That was not them just not caring. That was a deliberate creative decision to not delve into the Joker's background because they wanted him to be mysterious. The unknown is scary. He was supposed to be an absolute;

"To me, the Joker is an absolute," Nolan explained. "There are no shades of gray to him – maybe shades of purple. He's unbelievably dark. He bursts in just as he did in the comics."

Christopher Nolan movies in order: The Dark Knight (2008)

"He’s like the shark in Jaws,” Nolan explains. “The Joker cuts through the film, he’s incredibly important, but he’s not a guy with a backstory. He’s a wild card.”

Chris Nolan Says The Joker is Like the Shark in 'Jaws' - ComingSoon.net

Not caring may not have been why they did it, but regardless of their intention, it made it less real than Batman Begins to me and therefore made me like less how grounded the movie was in other ways. I came off of The Dark Knight wanting them to just go ahead and do the Batwing in TDKR, realism be damned, so I was glad they did.


Unrelated, but before I posted that I wasn't voting due to not having seen Infinity War or Endgame yet. I saw Infinity War today and hated it, which isn't surprising since the way they stuff so many characters into the movie is like a monument to the issues I have with the Avengers films, but I needed to see it first, regardless. After this, I really don't need to see Endgame to know that the The Dark Knight trilogy gets my vote.
 
The battle of superheroes and supervillains are generally implausible. To make them believable at the level that Batman Begins succeeded takes grounding it in concrete details that are themselves believable. It makes it feel more real. Me being able to come up with reasons why he's messed up and would dress like a clown isn't the same as the movie having these reasons underpinning its story.

But again its not implausible or any less grounded to not spell out why he chose the clown motif. Its not any less believable that a lunatic would choose a creepy clown image for his persona. Look at The Silence of the Lambs.They never explain why Hannibal Lecter likes to eat people. Why does some intelligent and cultured psychiatrist like him indulge in cannibalism? They never say. They just say he's insane and a monster. That's all you need. We don't need any insight into it. I know later movies go into his background, but Lambs stands strictly on its own without needing any of them. As does Lecter.

But even then with Joker you can put two and two together yourself just looking at him. He has a facial disfigurement in the form of a perma smile.

Hints isn't what I'm talking about, and that guy explaining the clown makeup is relaying what he heard. The impression I get from the scene is that he believes The Joker is motivated like the other robbers by making money. If they thought he was a crazy anarchist, they wouldn't work with him at all, so naturally they assume a pragmatic reason for the makeup. The Joker himself is, as you said, mysterious, therefore unexplained, therefore not grounding the material. It's just a reversal of Batman '89 where The Joker is up front and Batman is mysterious, except even there you learn the event that led to Batman.

We're not talking about the money, we're talking about the clown make up. They say he utilizes it to scare people. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts that. The opposite in fact given how we were shown to instances where he got right up in people's face and started telling them about his scars. He's obviously using his clown image there to intimidate them. The Joker is very much grounded. Not giving specifics about how he came to be doesn't make his actions and crazy logic he utilizes to justify it any less grounded in material.

The movie lays it all out. Joker is like the logical reaction to Batman. The law has a theatrical presence enforcing it, so the underworld got a theatrical presence to react to that. The Joker is the opposing force in every way to Batman. Batman wants order, Joker wants chaos. Batman believes in the good in people, Joker thinks everyone has a price, a breaking point that can turn them into something as bad as him if pushed. Batman operates within a set of rules. Joker has no rules. Batman is dark and grim. Joker is colorful and flamboyant. The Joker is a very well laid out character in who he is and what he wants. The fact they don't give you specifics on how he came to choose the clown motif, despite many strong indicators being peppered into the movie, doesn't make him any less a well laid out character.

Not caring may not have been why they did it, but regardless of their intention, it made it less real than Batman Begins to me and therefore made me like less how grounded the movie was in other ways. I came off of The Dark Knight wanting them to just go ahead and do the Batwing in TDKR, realism be damned, so I was glad they did.

That's unfortunate. The Joker's mystery is one of the most attractive qualities about the character, IMO.

Unrelated, but before I posted that I wasn't voting due to not having seen Infinity War or Endgame yet. I saw Infinity War today and hated it, which isn't surprising since the way they stuff so many characters into the movie is like a monument to the issues I have with the Avengers films, but I needed to see it first, regardless. After this, I really don't need to see Endgame to know that the The Dark Knight trilogy gets my vote.

Good choice.
 
But again its not implausible or any less grounded to not spell out why he chose the clown motif. Its not any less believable that a lunatic would choose a creepy clown image for his persona. Look at The Silence of the Lambs.They never explain why Hannibal Lecter likes to eat people. Why does some intelligent and cultured psychiatrist like him indulge in cannibalism? They never say. They just say he's insane and a monster. That's all you need. We don't need any insight into it. I know later movies go into his background, but Lambs stands strictly on its own without needing any of them. As does Lecter.

But even then with Joker you can put two and two together yourself just looking at him. He has a facial disfigurement in the form of a perma smile.

Okay, you know how they say that a lie is more convincing if you mix it with the truth? You notice how it's not that a lie is more convincing if you mix it with truths that you don't spell out but someone could guess at? Or that it's more convincing if you tell one story, then tell an entirely different story, but there's a common element to the stories that might be true and would make sense if it was? It's not the same thing.

Superheroes fighting supervillains is naturally less believable than serial killers, so it requires a greater level of diligence in grounding things in reality to make it seem real. It needs the "lie" mixed with the "truth", not to be technically more realistic, but to have greater verisimilitude. Batman Begins delivered on that for me, which is how it won me over on the grounded take when that wouldn't have been my first choice, and then I felt The Dark Knight was approaching it in a more standard way, while styling itself as if it were even more grounded, like it was Law and Order: Super Villains Unit. That just wasn't doing it for me. I'd prefer it to be either more convincing or more fantastical.

We're not talking about the money, we're talking about the clown make up. They say he utilizes it to scare people. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts that. The opposite in fact given how we were shown to instances where he got right up in people's face and started telling them about his scars. He's obviously using his clown image there to intimidate them. The Joker is very much grounded. Not giving specifics about how he came to be doesn't make his actions and crazy logic he utilizes to justify it any less grounded in material.

The movie lays it all out. Joker is like the logical reaction to Batman. The law has a theatrical presence enforcing it, so the underworld got a theatrical presence to react to that. The Joker is the opposing force in every way to Batman. Batman wants order, Joker wants chaos. Batman believes in the good in people, Joker thinks everyone has a price, a breaking point that can turn them into something as bad as him if pushed. Batman operates within a set of rules. Joker has no rules. Batman is dark and grim. Joker is colorful and flamboyant. The Joker is a very well laid out character in who he is and what he wants. The fact they don't give you specifics on how he came to choose the clown motif, despite many strong indicators being peppered into the movie, doesn't make him any less a well laid out character.

I'm not judging his overall merits, and him thematically counterbalancing Batman doesn't have anything to do with the the narrative plausibility or groundedness. And the guy who says he does it to scare people had never even seen him in the makeup. Even if The Joker said it himself, he was shown to be an inherently unreliable narrator when he changed his story on how he got his scars. You can say he does it to scare people because he gets in their faces, but Pfeiffer's Catwoman got in someone's face in a creepy way, and she dressed up like a cat because she was pushed out of a window, got licked by a bunch of cats, and lost her mind. Maybe The Joker uses the clown makeup as a means to an end, or maybe he's making a statement, or maybe something in his past compelled him to do it. We don't know the context. Batman Begins breaks Bruce's path down piece by piece. It spells out how and why Jonathan Crane first put on the mask and how it progressed from there. For me, there's a difference between doing that to make an unlikely character type convincing and just asking me to guess why. And it's more rewarding to me from a grounded reimagining perspective.


That's unfortunate. The Joker's mystery is one of the most attractive qualities about the character, IMO.

I mean, criticizing the mysterious backstory in general wasn't really my point, but I prefer the Nicholson approach to his background. Or the Phoenix approach, although that's a lot of background detail.
 
Then with The Dark Knight, it's like, why does he dress like a clown? Well, he's not going to tell you that. How does he get the explosives on the ferry? He just does. They stopped trying, and I stopped caring. I don't think it hurts anything that The Dark Knight Rises wasn't realistic, since TDK already went there. Well, it was stupid that Batman went to the trouble of putting gasoline or whatever on the bridge so he could light it up when he's supposed to be sneaking around without the League knowing about it, but other than that I liked that it was having more fun with its implausibility than The Dark Knight did. I just don't think it's as good otherwise.

Personally I don't have an issue with them not explaining why he dresses like a clown (it might be a bit too little focus on it in his personality though), I have an issue with not explaining most of the things he does, or rather how he does them. TDK went further than Begins to try to feel grounded and realistic but they didn't bother making sure they wrote The Joker to be intelligent, so he just does things he has no real way of accomplishing but he just succeeds anyway, because the script demands it. From smaller things up to rigging all the rooms in an entire hospital with explosives without anyone noticing, not even after the threat came in and they started looking for it.

I agree that Dent becoming Two-Face works poorly since he shouldn't even be close to acting functionally with such severe, fresh trauma, but it seems like they treat it mainly as that he became ugly. One of the weirdest parts around him comes at the end though. It's understandable that they don't want it to come out that Dent killed people but I see no reason why Batman has to take the blame instead of pinning it on The Joker as all of this is utterly insignificant compared to successfully blowing up an entire hospital. That could very well be the greatest act of terrorism that country had ever seen (since it's a different, fictional US) and if that didn't cause the effects The Joker wanted nothing else would be likely to either, and certainly not having a handful more deaths attributed to him. If anything that seems better for the masses as then there isn't a high profile murderer on the loose.
 
I agree that Dent becoming Two-Face works poorly since he shouldn't even be close to acting functionally with such severe, fresh trauma, but it seems like they treat it mainly as that he became ugly.

Right, and between Begins and TDK I thought maybe they wouldn't be so literal on the "Two Face" thing, that he'd be scarred on one side but it wouldn't be a perfect straight down the line thing, maybe even tone it down so they wouldn't have to CGI it, but they went right for it. And then they didn't commit to Catwoman for some reason. I don't know.

One of the weirdest parts around him comes at the end though. It's understandable that they don't want it to come out that Dent killed people but I see no reason why Batman has to take the blame instead of pinning it on The Joker as all of this is utterly insignificant compared to successfully blowing up an entire hospital. That could very well be the greatest act of terrorism that country had ever seen (since it's a different, fictional US) and if that didn't cause the effects The Joker wanted nothing else would be likely to either, and certainly not having a handful more deaths attributed to him. If anything that seems better for the masses as then there isn't a high profile murderer on the loose.

Sure, no one would have questioned it if they added those deaths to Joker's body count. Realism aside, though, I will say that the ending with Batman being a fugitive was my favorite thing about The Dark Knight, which makes it shame that TDKR skipped forward and didn't follow up on that.
 
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