Batman Begins vs The Avengers

[Killer]

I'm not the one that brought in critics to bolster my opinion but I can spin them just as well as you can to make a point.

I didn´t brought up anything. I responded to someone that said only Nolan fanboys had a certain opinion about the movie. I didn´t spin absolutely anything. I showed him how plenty of people that aren´t necessarly fanboys loved the movie. You, on the other hand, completely ignored the REAL critical consensus to show only what was convenient to you.

 

[Greens]

The Avengers was a great cinematic experience and it's one of my favorite Marvel movies, but Batman Begins easily takes the cake here. It's more of a complete package. There's a lot more emotional weight. Batman trying to save Rachel in the Tumbler with Zimmer's Molossus in the background... it doesn't get any better than that.

 

[Micromind]

Great pic !

This is more "grounded" Marvel Universe !

Extra points for Thor actor actually wearing the damn helmet !

 

[Spider-Aziz]

What am I looking at here? The debates I mean.

I vote for neither, Transformers ftw.

 

[spiderman2]

Batman begins and its not even close. Batman begins is a great movie with a killer soundtrack plot and good action. Avengers while good is far form great and overrated and doesn't have much of a plot and the last fight is to long.

 

[DACrowe]

Lost of great movies have macguffins: Raiders of the Lost Ark, Star Trek: Wrath of Khan, and Maltese Falcon.

and Batman Begins is a good story?

It has good actors and everything but it really lacks a third act that can compare to any great film/story.

It falls into the same tropes of the typical action movie without the mind-blowing visuals and thrilling set pieces of Avengers.

I wasn't going to comment until I read this...you really can't lump a magical space age thing fixed because Stellan Skarsgard is given the role of some thankless techno babble to the two greatest uses of MacGuffin in film history (other than Notorious): The Maltese Falcon and Raiders of the Lost Ark.

In both of those films, the object desired is literally the title of the picture, and its importance takes on a thematic importance for the characters as (spoilers) it is a fraud that shatters dreams and lives in Maltese Falcon, and in Raiders it takes on a transformative experience about the role of history in a history seeker like DR. Jones--who for audiences is himself living in a time of history with Nazis and burgeoning war.

While Nolan's movies aren't in the same ballpark as those films, they do aspire to take film as seriously as those do. The Avengers is closer to a 1940s serial that inspired Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

[DACrowe]

Oh and one other thing: Batman Begins and The Dark Knight inspired some good films (Casino Royale, Skyfall, Iron Man) and some bad films (The Amazing Spider-Man, Man of Steel, Star Trek Into Darkness).

However, if you think The Avengers isn't doing the same look closer. We're only two years out and the first thud of chasing The Avengers has already hit (The Amazing Spider-Man 2). Sure, X-Men: Days of Future Past is terrific, but this is just the beginning. Wait until DC and Fox are firing on all cylinders and we are having 7 superhero movies a year.

If you do not think there will be some duds, not to mention a chokehold of the genre, think again.

 

[StarLord]

Batman Begins by far. It really is a great origin movie.

The Avengers is fun but there's nothing much to it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Oh and one other thing: Batman Begins and The Dark Knight inspired some good films (Casino Royale, Skyfall, Iron Man) and some bad films (The Amazing Spider-Man, Man of Steel, Star Trek Into Darkness).

However, if you think The Avengers isn't doing the same look closer. We're only two years out and the first thud of chasing The Avengers has already hit (The Amazing Spider-Man 2). Sure, X-Men: Days of Future Past is terrific, but this is just the beginning. Wait until DC and Fox are firing on all cylinders and we are having 7 superhero movies a year.

If you do not think there will be some duds, not to mention a chokehold of the genre, think again.

Iron Man was influenced by Batman Begins?

How so?

and Avengers pretty much made WB and Fox get serious about using their shelved characters and Spider-man has a chance of going to Marvel Studios because Sony fumbled it's attempt at a shared universe.

These are major pluses in my book.

 

[Wildcard]

Love Batman Begins but I'll go with The Avengers on this one.

 

[Killer]

Iron Man was influenced by Batman Begins?

How so?

and Avengers pretty much made WB and Fox get serious about using their shelved characters and Spider-man has a chance of going to Marvel Studios because Sony fumbled it's attempt at a shared universe.

These are major pluses in my book.

That´s pretty much just your theory. WB has been trying to make JL and BvS movies for over 15 years and they came really really close to do it in the past, even before The Avengers. It´s not like they needed The Avengers to finally come up with the idea that it would be cool to use their other characters.

 

[schereZada]

What makes Begins any less mindless than Avengers?

"Why do we fall? To get back up again"

It always seemed to me they were just trying their hardest to come with a "with great power comes great responsibility" kind of line for Batman. Fatherly figure sums up verbally what our hero needs to learn. To me, the line was too basic (baby talk, as you put it) and became easily forgettable. Cheers.

 

[Killer]

It always seemed to me they were just trying their hardest to come with a "with great power comes great responsibility" kind of line for Batman. Fatherly figure sums up verbally what our hero needs to learn. To me, the line was too basic (baby talk, as you put it) and became easily forgettable. Cheers.

Too basic, as opposed to what? That "basic" line is still better than anything said in The Avengers.

 

[schereZada]

Too basic, as opposed to what? That "basic" line is still better than anything said in The Avengers.

I wouldn't discuss that for now as you're probably right. But too basic as opposed to "with great power comes great responsibility," obviously. Cheers.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think that was any attempt to emulate that Spider-Man line. I doubt Nolan's even seen Spider-Man. It was simply a line that sums up an inner strength in Bruce that when he fails at something he learns from it and recovers from his failure.

The Spider-Man line is a summation of how Peter handles his powers, as opposed to his villains who don't handle their power responsibly. The two lines are apples and oranges.

 

[BatLobster]

If you put aside the "influence" factor (which I think is debatable in either direction), Batman Begins is just pound for pound a better movie in my book. Better story, better script, better cinematography, better score, more of an emotional pull, a strong protagonist with a clearly defined goal and a fantastic journey throughout the film.

To me about the only thing the films have in common besides being superhero films is they both employ great ensemble casts. It's almost like comparing a drama to a comedy to me, because The Avengers' biggest victory was striking a fun/comedic tone that made the idea of all these worlds colliding in one film more palatable. You take the comedy away from that movie and it becomes something completely different and probably doesn't work nearly as well. Now, I give major props to Whedon for 'cracking the code' on something that most thought would flop, but at the same time this issue just leaves me feeling like there isn't a whole lot to the movie beneath the surface. I think even Joss has said that he doesn't think it's a great movie, just a really fun ride.

Begins, while perhaps not an all-time classic (and IMO the "least" impressive of the trilogy), is pretty solid through to the core, even with a few notable flaws, and has held up over time as a good piece of filmmaking and arguably the postmodern template for the idea of the "reboot" which didn't even exist in our cinematic lexicon prior. For me though, what I love most about the film is how tactile it feels...incredible location shooting, massive soundstage sets, miniature work, and CG in the most unobtrusive way possible. I think both films harken back to the 70s/80s golden age of the blockbuster, although with Avengers it's more in the spirit and whimsey of it and with Begins I feel it's an attempt to do a modern version of that, in the sense that it utilizes more of the filmmaking methodologies from that era, but also in that it has a brave-faced earnestness about presenting a larger than life figure within a believable, albeit heightened reality ala Donner's Superman.

I don't think that was any attempt to emulate that Spider-Man line. I doubt Nolan's even seen Spider-Man. It was simply a line that sums up an inner strength in Bruce that when he fails at something he learns from it and recovers from his failure.

I agree that the line likely has absolutely nada to do with ripping off Uncle Ben, but I'd wager that Nolan's seen Spider-Man. He's a fan of big blockbuster films, and we know he saw X-Men due to Jackman's comments on how Nolan worried that Singer had beat him to the punch when he first saw it. Besides who didn't see it back in '02? The film was massive! Also, Jonah references Spider-Man in the Trilogy Boxset documentary.

 

[The Joker]

Iron Man was influenced by Batman Begins?

How so?

Did you have a vision of the movie in your head?
‘Christopher Nolan’s “Batman Begins” set the bar very high for the superhero movie, as it showed that you could get a great cast for these movies and take a real filmmaker’s perspective. There were some other superhero movies, the titles of which I don’t want to mention, that were making a lot of money and which I thought were trash. I didn’t want to end up making one of those types of movies, I wanted to make a movie like Christopher’s.’

http://www.timeout.com/london/film/jon-favreau-interview-1

 

[flickchick85]

BB is actually my least favorite of Nolan's trilogy, as I really don't care for its screenplay at all. I don't like its dialogue, I don't like its heavy-handed obsession with "fear" and I don't like its 3rd act. It's generally a good movie saved by the talent of its director and cast who really elevated it, imo, but it has plenty of glaring weaknesses to the point that I find I enjoy it less with each viewing. So while TDK got my vote in the other "vs. Avengers" thread, Avengers gets my vote here.

 

[Killer]

I wouldn't discuss that for now as you're probably right. But too basic as opposed to "with great power comes great responsibility," obviously. Cheers.

I can´t agree with that. Those are both great lines that have a lot behind it and and work perfectly within the context they were used. I fail to see how the spider-man line is any more "complex" than the Begins line.

Also:

"It's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you."

Batman Begins has great lines.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Really, comparing the dark, realistic world of Nolan to the fun, bright world of the Avengers is never going to work. They're each entertaining in their own way, and it all comes down to personal preference.

 

[Killer]

Really, comparing the dark, realistic world of Nolan to the fun, bright world of the Avengers is never going to work. They're each entertaining in their own way, and it all comes down to personal preference.

You can actually have a fun and bright world with the same level of depth and substance as the Nolan´s Batman movies. It´s just not The Avenger´s case.

 

[gildedmuse]

I am mystified by how many people knock off points for Avenger's plot, like plot somehow equals story or even holds that much weight. I just rewatched Avengers and oh my God the writing is so good. The script has such a natural and quick flow to it, the dialog is smart and constantly foreshadowing/calling back to itself so that the whole movie has this beautiful movement to it. Really, overall the plot is just one small part of how well a script is written. In the case of Avengers I honestly think the simplicity of the plot aided the movie.

 

[Flint Marko]

I am mystified by how many people knock off points for Avenger's plot, like plot somehow equals story or even holds that much weight. I just rewatched Avengers and oh my God the writing is so good. The script has such a natural and quick flow to it, the dialog is smart and constantly foreshadowing/calling back to itself so that the whole movie has this beautiful movement to it. Really, overall the plot is just one small part of how well a script is written. In the case of Avengers I honestly think the simplicity of the plot aided the movie.

Labelling it a "simple popcorn movie" is quite popular amongst those who think a film has to be dour and humorless to be a respected "serious" piece of cinema.
It obviously has flaws (the weak alien antagonists who all conveniently collapse at the destruction of their mothership being the most glaring), but to demean the impressive juggling act Whedon and Marvel pulled off is foolish.

 

[gildedmuse]

Labelling it a "simple popcorn movie" is quite popular amongst those who think a film has to be dour and humorless to be a respected "serious" piece of cinema.
It obviously has flaws (the weak alien antagonists who all conveniently collapse at the destruction of their mothership being the most glaring), but to demean the impressive juggling act Whedon and Marvel pulled off is foolish.

Well, yeah, it'shardly a 10 out of 10, but regardless of what you think about comedy verses drama or the importance of plot complexity, the Avengers has witty, solid dialog and writing not too mention is full of character moments (hell, Bruce Banner alone is better developed in what little screen time he gets than he was in his own film, and the people dismissive of Black Widow.... did we even watch the same movie?)

 

[Killer]

Labelling it a "simple popcorn movie" is quite popular amongst those who think a film has to be dour and humorless to be a respected "serious" piece of cinema.
It obviously has flaws (the weak alien antagonists who all conveniently collapse at the destruction of their mothership being the most glaring), but to demean the impressive juggling act Whedon and Marvel pulled off is foolish.

I doubt those who label The Avengers as such actually think that way. I know plenty of movies full of great humor who are more than just "simple popcorn movies". The Big Lebowski, for example.