Avengers 1-4 vs The Dark Knight Trilogy

[Awest66]

There would be no trouble seeing that it wasn't the doctor, but the main point is that they bothered to put a tiny amount of the doctor's blood into the body, showing that the writers have no clue about how you perform an autopsy.

It will be found out instantly given that they went about it using a terrorist attack, and Bruce Wayne can of course just say that he never authorized it. They couldn't have made it easier to find out.

My point is that all of them can't have been down there and even if there are still a few thousand that went down, which is still absurd (and possibly exaggerated given the shot we see of them), there would be somewhere around 40 000 officers left above ground, given the size of Gotham. Even without getting detailed, which you probably won't during the film, you still instinctively now that there would be tens of thousands of cops around. Yet when the cops underground get let out they can take on the well-armed terrorists in a fist fight.

And as said, I just posted four examples. There are many things like that going on in this film.

I'm just gonna say this. The TDK trilogy is not realistic, It never has been and it never made any claim that it was. Chris Nolan's intent was to create a world that vaguely resembled our own but operated on movie logic. His intent was never to create a movie series actually set in the real world. They have technology (the microwave emitter, the sonar device) you wouldn't find in the real world, An ancient ninja organization that caused the Great London Fire, they have plot points like Batman being able to kidnap a Chinese national with no international repercussions, and Harvey Dent being able to function with half his face burned off (how is that more "realistic" than police being able to fight terrorists after months underground)

That's why I don't find any of the examples of "ridiculous logic" you've laid out to hold any water. Regardless of whether or not it's more grounded than the usual comic book movie, It's still a movie about a man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime and will inevitably require "suspension of disbelief" in some areas. The nolanverse is nowhere near as restrictive as fans made it out to be.

Even if the body doesn't exactly look like Dr Pavel, The fact that it would most likely be burned beyond recognition means that an autopsy wouldn't really mean squat in identifying that it wasn't him, The stock market fraud would have been overturned eventually just not right away and they didn't send every cop into the sewers (as said by the priest who John Blake talks too).

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I'm just gonna say this. The TDK trilogy is not realistic, It never has been and it never made any claim that it was. Chris Nolan's intent was to create a world that vaguely resembled our own but operated on movie logic. His intent was never to create a movie series actually set in the real world. They have technology (the microwave emitter, the sonar device) you wouldn't find in the real world, An ancient ninja organization that caused the Great London Fire, they have plot points like Batman being able to kidnap a Chinese national with no international repercussions, and Harvey Dent being able to function with half his face burned off (how is that more "realistic" than police being able to fight terrorists after months underground)

That's why I don't find any of the examples of "ridiculous logic" you've laid out to hold any water. Regardless of whether or not it's more grounded than the usual comic book movie, It's still a movie about a man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime and will inevitably require "suspension of disbelief" in some areas. The nolanverse is nowhere near as restrictive as fans made it out to be.

Even if the body doesn't exactly look like Dr Pavel, The fact that it would most likely be burned beyond recognition means that an autopsy wouldn't really mean squat in identifying that it wasn't him, The stock market fraud would have been overturned eventually just not right away and they didn't send every cop into the sewers (as said by the priest who John Blake talks too).

I don't care much whether you find it holding water or not as I'm stating my opinion, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I think there's a clear tonal dissonance in at least TDK and TDKR and it's fine if you disagree since it's a subjective matter which will mean that people think differently. Harvey Dent is another thing I felt fell flat because it didn't fit the tone of the film at all and the point isn't that there aren't plenty of such things, I've already said that myself as I'm sure you're aware, it's that the main part of the films that don't have ridiculous stuff feel so different that the weird stuff stands out in a bad way to me.

It's doubtful that there's any fuel left to burn on impact given that the wings were torn off, but even if we figured that would happen it would still make the tiny blood transfusion pointless. They would in no way have managed to make Bruce go bankrupt through that ploy, both in itself and given everything else he could do to stay afloat if the turnover for some reason actually took a long time. Both these cases feel like it's written by someone trying to be clever but doesn't know the basics about of what he's writing. I've already stated that they can't have sent every cop into the sewers, which means that more than 90% of the force is still above ground and that ploy seems pointless, but the film tries to make it so that there are hardly any police left. I guess that can explain how utterly incompetent the police are since there aren't even a tenth of them compared to what they should be.

 

[Awest66]

I don't care much whether you find it holding water or not as I'm stating my opinion,

That's perfectly fine, That's exactly what I'm doing as well.

It's doubtful that there's any fuel left to burn on impact given that the wings were torn off, but even if we figured that would happen it would still make the tiny blood transfusion pointless.

Even if there's no fuel, The body would still be heavily disfigured enough to make identification impossible. No it wouldn't work in the real world but that doesn't matter because as I've said before these movies are not set in the real world.

They would in no way have managed to make Bruce go bankrupt through that ploy, both in itself and given everything else he could do to stay afloat if the turnover for some reason actually took a long time

Are you an expert in economics and the stock market? I don't know why it's such a big deal that they can't prove fraud right away when Lucius explicitly said they will be able to do so period. What you need to understand is that even if all trades made on that day were voided, It wouldn't matter because Bane created a paper trail that goes back months further than the day of the attack.

I've already stated that they can't have sent every cop into the sewers,

And the movie never says they sent every cop into the sewer (Foley says something like that but Blake corrects him), There are clearly several cops above ground working with Gordon and Blake to resist Bane but their being targeted by his army and their Tumblers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

As dumb as I think sending every cop into the sewar was, I could have let it slide had it not been coupled with lazy art direction, makeup, costumes, etc. Those cops do not look like they were there for months when they get out. It's incredibly lazy.

 

[Bayne]

The sewer is one of the dumber things in that movie, but I also could have let it slide if the movie didn't have so many such things.

At the end of the day, the one specific thing that really more than anything else destroys the whole film for me is the broken back. You can talk forever about the difference between 'realistic' and 'movie realistic', but there is no amount of suspension of disbelief that can make up for Bruce *fully healing from a broken back in a few months, using an absolute minimum amount of primitive health care in the bottom of a pit/prison*. Especially not when you consider he also comes out of the pit having magically restored his physical health and strength in general to basically just as good as it was in the prior films, despite the fact that the doctor at the start of the movie goes through this insanely long list of all the ways Bruce has totally f'ed up his body beyond repair. If they wanted me to buy that one, they should have bit the bullet and accepted that Rises was just a more generally fantastical story than the previous ones and just actually adapted the idea of the Lazarus Pit.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Even if there's no fuel, The body would still be heavily disfigured enough to make identification impossible. No it wouldn't work in the real world but that doesn't matter because as I've said before these movies are not set in the real world.

As I already said it doesn't even matter what shape the body is in, that tiny transfusion does nothing to make it seem like someone else. They invented something for the scene to try to make it look smart, but it had the directly opposite effect.

Are you an expert in economics and the stock market? I don't know why it's such a big deal that they can't prove fraud right away when Lucius explicitly said they will be able to do so period. What you need to understand is that even if all trades made on that day were voided, It wouldn't matter because Bane created a paper trail that goes back months further than the day of the attack.

I have some basic knowledge as I invest my money in the stock market myself and you don't need more than that to understand how much scrutiny that is put on the stock market. The market doesn't work if you can manipulate it fraudulently with ease, and on top of that they used the dumbest, most obvious method ever to do so since they did a big, public terrorist attack. This kind of plot is something you'd generally see as a very sneaky mission in other movies but here they seem to want their cheating to be caught, except they don't.

And the movie never says they sent every cop into the sewer (Foley says something like that but Blake corrects him), There are clearly several cops above ground working with Gordon and Blake to resist Bane but their being targeted by his army and their Tumblers.

Why do you only quote the sentence where I said that you just stated something as an argument I already said, and then ignore the parts where I actually make my point? I can only assume that you don't have any issues with said point then.

 

[Dede]

The sewer is one of the dumber things in that movie, but I also could have let it slide if the movie didn't have so many such things.

At the end of the day, the one specific thing that really more than anything else destroys the whole film for me is the broken back. You can talk forever about the difference between 'realistic' and 'movie realistic', but there is no amount of suspension of disbelief that can make up for Bruce *fully healing from a broken back in a few months, using an absolute minimum amount of primitive health care in the bottom of a pit/prison*. Especially not when you consider he also comes out of the pit having magically restored his physical health and strength in general to basically just as good as it was in the prior films, despite the fact that the doctor at the start of the movie goes through this insanely long list of all the ways Bruce has totally f'ed up his body beyond repair. If they wanted me to buy that one, they should have bit the bullet and accepted that Rises was just a more generally fantastical story than the previous ones and just actually adapted the idea of the Lazarus Pit.

Since the back was dislocated instead of broken I found it more believable

 

[Bayne]

Since the back was dislocated instead of broken I found it more believable

The script says broken. You can hear the crack in the film. And a simple google search shows pretty much everyone interprets the scene as 'Bane breaks Batman's back'.

 

[The Joker]

Nowhere in the movie does it say Bane broke his back. People automatically assume it because its what Bane is most famous for in the comics. Nolan captured the imagery of that scene right down to Bane holding Batman over his head and slamming his back down on his knee. What is actually nonsense is no matter what kind of back injury he sustained, he could never have any protruding vertebrae just punched back into place. That part was utter baloney.

As for the trapped underground Cops coming out months later not looking like dirty cavemen, that's not any huge stretch of credibility. Besides the fact that the movie clearly states they were receiving food, water etc during their time down there, there is also a real life example of a similar type of situation. Back in 2010, 33 mine workers in Chile were trapped underground after a mine collapsed. They were trapped there for 69 days. This is what they looked like when the rescue occurred;

Link; Chile mine rescue of 2010 | Description & Facts

They're not looking grossly disheveled, in fact looking at them you'd never know they had been trapped for months at all. Some of them are even clean shaven.

 

[Bayne]

Nowhere in the movie does it say Bane broke his back. People automatically assume it because its what Bane is most famous for in the comics. Nolan captured the imagery of that scene right down to Bane holding Batman over his head and slamming his back down on his knee.

And because the imagery is very specifically designed to suggest it, which Nolan obviously knew and still willingly chose to use that imagery. And because the sound effect used is classic hollywood for 'something just broke'. And because the script says that's what happened.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Nowhere in the movie does it say Bane broke his back. People automatically assume it because its what Bane is most famous for in the comics. Nolan captured the imagery of that scene right down to Bane holding Batman over his head and slamming his back down on his knee. What is actually nonsense is no matter what kind of back injury he sustained, he could never have any protruding vertebrae just punched back into place. That part was utter baloney.

As for the trapped underground Cops coming out months later not looking like dirty cavemen, that's not any huge stretch of credibility. Besides the fact that the movie clearly states they were receiving food, water etc during their time down there, there is also a real life example of a similar type of situation. Back in 2010, 33 mine workers in Chile were trapped underground after a mine collapsed. They were trapped there for 69 days. This is what they looked like when the rescue occurred;

Link; Chile mine rescue of 2010 | Description & Facts

They're not looking grossly disheveled, in fact looking at them you'd never know they had been trapped for months at all. Some of them are even clean shaven.

In your picture, the movers are not wearing uniforms. So doesn't do anything for me. The cops looked too clean in the movie. I get they were being fed. Hence them not being outright dead and that's fine. But were they sponge bathing them and putting their clothes in the washer too? Bane is a courteous guy.

 

[The Joker]

And because the imagery is very specifically designed to suggest it, which Nolan obviously knew and still willingly chose to use that imagery. And because the sound effect used is classic hollywood for 'something just broke'. And because the script says that's what happened.

He chose the imagery because its iconic. Its like one of the most iconic images in Batman lore from one of the most iconic moments in Batman lore. Say what you like about Nolan, he adapted a lot of moments like that via imagery into his movies. Bruce sitting in the alley over his dead parents' bodies. The meeting of Batman, Gordon, and Dent by the batsignal. Batman attacking the Cops with a swarm of bats etc. All imagery taken from notable Batman stories.

I don't know why you keep citing what the script says. What a script says and what's stated in a movie are apples and oranges. And as detractors often like to point out, Nolan verbalizes things like that through dialogue in his movies. Yet not a single character mentions the supposedly massive fact that Batman's got a broken back. You can assume he has all you want.

But you're arguing semantics. Regardless of what type of injury it was, the healing method is what is the actual nonsense part.

In your picture, the movers are not wearing uniforms. So doesn't do anything for me. The cops looked too clean in the movie. I get they were being fed. Hence them not being outright dead and that's fine. But were they sponge bathing them and putting their clothes in the washer too? Bane is a courteous guy.

Well to be fair the miners are in Chile, a country with a Mediterranean type climate all year round. And they were trapped underground. Not surprising they are shirtless. Contrast to the Police in TDKR, who were living during Winter temperatures. But that aside looking at those miners they are not excessively dirty at all, in fact they look quite clean for guys who have gone months without a shower, and living in a dirty mine, too. Were they also sponge bathing? Perhaps they utilized some of their water to keep themselves clean. And as already stated some are even clean shaven, too. There is nothing about them visually that suggests they've spent months underground. That was the point.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Other than the dirt on their faces? Yeah, totally clean.

Sorry man, it's just lazy to me. TDKR in general I find Nolan's laziest film.

 

[Awest66]

Other than the dirt on their faces? Yeah, totally clean.

Sorry man, it's just lazy to me. TDKR in general I find Nolan's laziest film.

Its certainly his most nitpicked beyond any doubt.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Its certainly his most nitpicked beyond any doubt.

I don't think that's true at all. Most criticized of the Batman trilogy? Yes, easily I would say. But I think Interstellar has far more criticism than TDKR does overall. But, I regard Interstellar as a modern masterpiece personally. So I am much more favorable toward that movie

 

[Awest66]

I don't think that's true at all. Most criticized of the Batman trilogy? Yes, easily I would say. But I think Interstellar has far more criticism than TDKR does overall. But, I regard Interstellar as a modern masterpiece personally. So I am much more favorable toward that movie

I never sad most criticized, I said most nitpicked.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I never sad most criticized, I said most nitpicked.

What is a criticism and what is a nitpick is a matter of opinion. For you, these may be nitpicks. But I don't see this the same way. These little things add up for me in a way that signals a laziness or lack of care in the work that prior films did not show, which I think is a valid criticism. I am not forcing anyone to agree with me, but based on prior pages, clearly I am not alone in this thinking.

 

[Awest66]

What is a criticism and what is a nitpick is a matter of opinion. For you, these may be nitpicks. But I don't see this the same way. These little things add up for me in a way that signals a laziness or lack of care in the work that prior films did not show, which I think is a valid criticism. I am not forcing anyone to agree with me, but based on prior pages, clearly I am not alone in this thinking.

Well Nitpicking is defined as "looking for small errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily" or "engage in fussy and pedantic fault-finding" and that's more often than not the exact feeling I get when people bring up the so-called 'massive problems" of TDKR. I'm not saying this applies to anyone person necessarily but that is the general feeling I get.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well Nitpicking is defined as "looking for small errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily" or "engage in fussy and pedantic fault-finding" and that's more often than not the exact feeling I get when people bring up the so-called 'massive problems" of TDKR. I'm not saying this applies to anyone person necessarily but that is the general feeling I get.

But again, you're looking at these things as small faults. I don't. Like I said above, all these things add up to me to one big idea: Nolan put less care into this movie, and in my opinion effort. That's not a small thing. Watching BB or TDK, I see Nolan trying to make the best Batman movie possible. When I see things like poor make-up and such on these cops, extras who knock themselves out in a fight scene (that they don't go back and reshoot) and so many recycled plot points and such, I see this movie as the movie Nolan made because he wanted to get Inception, the movie he put way more care into, made. TDKR was a job, not a passion. For me, it shows in the work.

So again, nitpick vs criticism is in the eye of the viewer. I am not telling you to agree with me. You can feel like I am completely off base, and that's fine. But what I do ask is that maybe you consider other points of view will differ from yours. People apply logic differently. The world is not painted with 1 brush.

 

[Awest66]

But again, you're looking at these things as small faults. I don't. Like I said above, all these things add up to me to one big idea: Nolan put less care into this movie, and in my opinion effort.

I'm sorry but I passionately disagree with this, especially considering the enormous scale and the choice to actually give Bruce Wayne a definitive ending as opposed to another "I must be Batman forever" type conclusion. In my opinion, If Nolan really didn't want to make TDKR, he would have walked away. There's literally nothing that would've stopped him. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who "does things for a paycheck", I mean yes of course, He'd want to move on and do other projects eventually as would anyone but the fact that he chose to set the movie in a different genre from The Dark Knight entirely instead f just making another crime drama with Black Mask or the Riddler shows me he was putting in a strong effort at least. All the small things you mentioned I've always seen them as Nolan maybe losing sight of the little things amidst the sprawling epic he's making rather than because he "didn't care". I mean look at Bruce Wayne's character journey for this movie. I'm sorry if it does nothing for you but it's really hard for me to even countenance the idea that Nolan didn't put as much care/effort when taking that into account.

As for "recycled plot points", Nolan wanted to bring the series full circle like any good trilogy should. It had nothing to do with lack of imagination. To me this is like saying Captain America Civil War "recycles" plot points from Winter Soldier because it also made Cap a fugitive criminal from the goverment.

You can feel like I am completely off base, and that's fine. But what I do ask is that maybe you consider other points of view will differ from yours.

Good advice. I always endeavor to do just that.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm sorry but I passionately disagree with this, especially considering the enormous scale and the choice to actually give Bruce Wayne a definitive ending as opposed to another "I must be Batman forever" type conclusion. In my opinion, If Nolan really didn't want to make TDKR, he would have walked away. There's literally nothing that would've stopped him. He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who "does things for a paycheck", I mean yes of course, He'd want to move on and do other projects eventually as would anyone but the fact that he chose to set the movie in a different genre from The Dark Knight entirely instead f just making another crime drama with Black Mask or the Riddler shows me he was putting in a strong effort at least. All the small things you mentioned I've always seen them as Nolan maybe losing sight of the little things amidst the sprawling epic he's making rather than because he "didn't care". I mean look at Bruce Wayne's character journey for this movie. I'm sorry if it does nothing for you but it's really hard for me to even countenance the idea that Nolan didn't put as much care/effort when taking that into account.

Agree to disagree here. Watching the prior Batman films or Inception or Interstellar, I saw far more meticulous work. Outside of the occasional bad extra, I didn't see anything as egregious or elements that just take me out of the immersion of the movies like I did TDKR. Like I said, I just didn't feel the heart this time around.

As for "recycled plot points", Nolan wanted to bring the series full circle like any good trilogy should. It had nothing to do with lack of imagination. To me this is like saying Captain America Civil War "recycles" plot points from Winter Soldier because it also made Cap a fugitive criminal from the goverment.

The Cap movies bring things like Hydra back and such, but it's never used so similarly. Cap being a fugitive from the government in 2 movies didn't feel even remotely similar. But like how the 2 mcguffins were used in almost exactly the same fashion in BB and TDKR. The stories progressed far more logically for me.

Good advice. I always endeavor to do just that.

 

[Awest66]

Agree to disagree here. Watching the prior Batman films or Inception or Interstellar, I saw far more meticulous work. Outside of the occasional bad extra, I didn't see anything as egregious or elements that just take me out of the immersion of the movies like I did TDKR. Like I said, I just didn't feel the heart this time around.

TDKR is at it's heart a story about a man wanting to die finding the ability to appreciate life again and that part of the movie is handled absolutely perfectly to me. Whatever these small things you could mention, Do they really matter in the context of that emotional core? Another thing about Rises is that it's not a crime drama or a heist thriller like Inception, It's a war movie and the things you say are evidence of Nolan "not having his heart in it" are things that slipped by him because of his view of the larger picture.

But like how the 2 mcguffins were used in almost exactly the same fashion in BB and TDKR. The stories progressed far more logically for me.

I wouldn't say their used in "exactly the same fashion", Bane never uses the bomb to actually drive the people, He just uses it to ensure that no one can leave or intervene from the outside. He himself is the one inciting the anarchy.

 

[Spider-Fan]

TDKR is at it's heart a story about a man wanting to die finding the ability to appreciate life again and that part of the movie is handled absolutely perfectly to me. Whatever these small things you could mention, Do they really matter in the context of that emotional core? Another thing about Rises is that it's not a crime drama or a heist thriller like Inception, It's a war movie and the things you say are evidence of Nolan "not having his heart in it" are things that slipped by him because of his view of the larger picture.

These small things absolutely do. At its core, The Room is a tale of one man's world crumbling around him as the ones he loves betrays him one by one and drives him to the brink. The execution of this great emotional core is laughable. Thus the movie is a joke, regardless of any intent of the story. I am not saying TDKR is The Room. No matter how much I dislike the movie, I would never say it is. But this example shows the power of execution. Story intent means nothing if the work itself is executed poorly. TDKR I feel fails in execution. At least it does for me.

I wouldn't say their used in "exactly the same fashion", Bane never uses the bomb to actually drive the people, He just uses it to ensure that no one can leave or intervene from the outside. He himself is the one inciting the anarchy.

But he was going to destroy the city in the end with it. Only difference is BB was going to be via madness and fear and TDKR was eventual mega explosion. It's the same thing in spirit.

 

[Awest66]

These small things absolutely do. At its core, The Room is a tale of one man's world crumbling around him as the ones he loves betrays him one by one and drives him to the brink. The execution of this great emotional core is laughable. Thus the movie is a joke, regardless of any intent of the story. I am not saying TDKR is The Room. No matter how much I dislike the movie, I would never say it is. But this example shows the power of execution. Story intent means nothing if the work itself is executed poorly. TDKR I feel fails in execution. At least it does for me.

I wouldn't exactly call this an ideal comparison considering the Room is completely and hilariously inept on every level from a technical, script and acting standpoint and it's full of things that go nowhere and don't contribute to that so-called emotional core. I cannot say the same of Rises especially in terms of the general standard of movie making. You are right in saying the execution matters but I don't really see how TDKR "fails" in its execution of the core story which is Bruce Wayne's emotional journey. Sure there are little things you can nitpick but if the that part of the story is executed well, Than they really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Execution is not just "the small things"

It's the same thing in spirit

If that's the case, than so are Loki's portal machine and Ultrons island floater.

The microwave emitter was responsible for Gothams state of panic, Bane initiated a state of panic himself while intending to use the bomb to finish it off. Their similar but different enough.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I wouldn't exactly call this an ideal comparison considering the Room is completely and hilariously inept on every level from a technical, script and acting standpoint and it's full of things that go nowhere and don't contribute to that so-called emotional core. I cannot say the same of Rises especially in terms of the general standard of movie making. You are right in saying the execution matters but I don't really see how TDKR "fails" in its execution of the core story which is Bruce Wayne's emotional journey. Sure there are little things you can nitpick but if the that part of the story is executed well, Than they really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Execution is not just "the small things"

Small things are part of execution. I have bigger problems with the story as well, but these small issues like i said many times add up and contribute to the film as a whole. The film as a whole falls flat. I can overlook small details of the film has enough good for me to overlook the flaws. This movie just doesn't for me, so these stand out.

If that's the case, than so are Loki's portal machine and Ultrons island floater.

The microwave emitter was responsible for Gothams state of panic, Bane initiated a state of panic himself while intending to use the bomb to finish it off. Their similar but different enough.

Not even remotely the same. Loki sought to bring an army to rule the world. Ultron was trying to destroy it so it could evolve into machines. Completely different.