Batman Begins vs The Avengers

[CaptainWagner]

You can actually have a fun and bright world with the same level of depth and substance as the Nolan´s Batman movies. It´s just not The Avenger´s case.

I know that. And personally, I think that The Avengers did have "depth and substance". You want "no depth and substance", that's Transformers. But The Avengers is more than just the explosions and jokes. It makes you care about the characters and what happens to them. It makes you want to see them again, both as a team, and on their own. While it may not be Nolan's level of "deep, dark, soul-searching commentary on society and heroes", it's got plenty of substance.

 

[BoredGuy]

In pure geek terms, Avengers all day
as a "film', considered on its own merits with no accounting for personal bias? Batman wins that one

 

[Killer]

I know that. And personally, I think that The Avengers did have "depth and substance". You want "no depth and substance", that's Transformers. But The Avengers is more than just the explosions and jokes. It makes you care about the characters and what happens to them. It makes you want to see them again, both as a team, and on their own. While it may not be Nolan's level of "deep, dark, soul-searching commentary on society and heroes", it's got plenty of substance.

To me The Avengers isn´t really the type of film that would make me care about what happens to the characters, because i never for one moment felt anything bad could actually happen. They´re all very cartoon-like and don´t inspire any real emotion in me. And the agent Phil´s death scene, that i think it was supposed to make me feel something, wasn´t really able to do it because it involved a character that wasn´t strong enough for me to care about, and the whole moment was also discarded very quickly.

But i bet some folks found The Avengers emotional in some way, wich to me is weird, but doesn´t shock me at all. We don´t all feel things the same way.

Transformers doesn´t have any less substance than The Avengers. It´s just more boring and less funny. The Avengers is overall a better executed film.

 

[Erzengel]

I enjoyed Avengers more. Not to say I didn't like Batman Begins. I'd put Begins over TDKR.

Avengers I was just more invested. It had technically 5 lead in movies. I cared about the characters prior to seeing the Avengers.

 

[def28]

Avengers.

 

[Daltonio]

Batman Begins for me in almost all of those aspects, not even a contest.

 

[Thoix]

For me, Batman Begins is easily the better of the two. I can't think of one thing The Avengers does better than Batman Begins. The Avengers tends to bore me immensely now in days whenever I watch it, especially the last 20-30 minutes of the movie. There just isn't enough in the movie to hold my interest to end after the initial theater viewing on opening day. I also can't stand most of the "comedy" in The Avengers anymore as it only causes me to roll my eyes because of how dumb it is. To be fair, Batman Begins has a few bad jokes too, but none of them ruin any moments in the movie for me.

 

[Tony Stark]

Avengers easily. BB was a good film and definitely was pivotal in changing how superhero films were made, but Avengers was a game changer. Before Avengers everyone (especially those at Warner) were poo-pooing the idea of a shared universe. People criticized Cap TFA and Thor for merely being safe bets that were trailers for Avengers, even more so for Iron Man 2. Marvel proved everyone wrong and Avengers is really the benchmark film for the decade. Everyone else is now trying to copy Marvel's success.

 

[Greens]

I think a film fan with only a superficial knowledge of comic book characters would prefer Batman Begins over The Avengers. Take out nostalgia and fanboyism completely and Batman Begins ends up as the winner. Now, The Avengers may have more mainstream appeal because it's a funny, fast moving spectacle. I fully admit that.

 

[def28]

Not to say everyone in the world agrees but Avengers does have the fan, critic and audience advantage here though.

 

[Killer]

Avengers easily. BB was a good film and definitely was pivotal in changing how superhero films were made, but Avengers was a game changer. Before Avengers everyone (especially those at Warner) were poo-pooing the idea of a shared universe. People criticized Cap TFA and Thor for merely being safe bets that were trailers for Avengers, even more so for Iron Man 2. Marvel proved everyone wrong and Avengers is really the benchmark film for the decade. Everyone else is now trying to copy Marvel's success.

That´s not true at all. Warner has been interested in creating their own shared universe for decades and came very, very, very close to do it in 2008, way before the Avengers. In the 90´s and early 2000´s there were also other projects that involved Batman and Superman in the same movie. Warner didn´t need The Avengers to come up with the conclusion that a shared universe would be a good idea. Yeah, Marvel took that big step first, but that doesn´t really mean anything, since they weren´t the first to make an effort to create something of this type. That idea was there way before MCU, like most of the ideas involving the Super Hero genre.

Not to say everyone in the world agrees but Avengers does have the fan, critic and audience advantage here though.

I´m not so sure of that. According to this thread, it doesn´t really seem to have much of a "fan advantage". As far as the critic and audience advantage, i think it depends on where you´re getting your data from. The Avengers is better rated on RT, but Batman Begins is better rated on IMDB and Metacritic, so i don´t really think you have enough data to really come up with the conclusion that The Avengers has all the advantages. And even if it has an advantage, it´s not significant at all.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

That´s not true at all. Warner has been interested in creating their own shared universe for decades and came very, very, very close to do it in 2008, way before the Avengers. In the 90´s and early 2000´s there were also other projects that involved Batman and Superman in the same movie. Warner didn´t need The Avengers to come up with the conclusion that a shared universe would be a good idea. Yeah, Marvel took that big step first, but that doesn´t really mean anything, since they weren´t the first to make an effort to create something of this type. That idea was there way before MCU, like most of the ideas involving the Super Hero genre.

So every studio fast tracking shared universes a couple years after Avengers shatters records at the box office was pure coincidence?

I kinda doubt that.

I´m not so sure of that. According to this thread, it doesn´t really seem to have much of a "fan advantage". As far as the critic and audience advantage, i think it depends on where you´re getting your data from. The Avengers is better rated on RT, but Batman Begins is better rated on IMDB and Metacritic, so i don´t really think you have enough data to really come up with the conclusion that The Avengers has all the advantages. And even if it has an advantage, it´s not significant at all.

IMDB is ruled by Nolanites and metacritic hardly uses that many critic reviews compared to RT.

 

[Erzengel]

I think in terms of general audience even with inflation that more people saw the Avengers in the theaters and based on the numbers website the Avengers made over 3 times as much in dvd/blu-ray. It's not a far leap to say that Avengers was popular enough for people to spend over $200 million in DVDs/blu-ray. BB only made like $65 million.

 

[def28]

I´m not so sure of that. According to this thread, it doesn´t really seem to have much of a "fan advantage". As far as the critic and audience advantage, i think it depends on where you´re getting your data from. The Avengers is better rated on RT, but Batman Begins is better rated on IMDB and Metacritic, so i don´t really think you have enough data to really come up with the conclusion that The Avengers has all the advantages. And even if it has an advantage, it´s not significant at all.

This thread doesn't come close to having the overall opinion of SHH members with not even 100 votes. Through the years I have seen Dark Knight and Avengers pretty much own everything. It's almost always between those two here.

Metacritic has what 41 reviews for Bat Begins and 43 for Avengers? Compared to RT's 266 and 306. The Avengers had an A+ Cinema Score, 8/10 avegerage score rating for critics and 4.4/5 score for audiences.

Batman Begins got an A Cinema score, 7.7 average critic rating and a 3.9/5 audience score.

The difference on IMDB between the two is a .1 Begins lead.

 

[Killer]

So every studio fast tracking shared universes a couple years after Avengers shatters records at the box office was pure coincidence?

In 2007 or 2008 WB was in pre-prodution for a Justice League movie. I guess right now they´re just going forward with something they´ve tried to do several times in the past, way before MCU. What´s your excuse to that?

IMDB is ruled by Nolanites and metacritic hardly uses that many critic reviews compared to RT.

So, whatever site gives the better rating to the movies you like is the most valid one, right?

 

[Killer]

This thread doesn't come close to having the overall opinion of SHH members with not even 100 votes. Through the years I have seen Dark Knight and Avengers pretty much own everything. It's almost always between those two here.

Metacritic has what 41 reviews for Bat Begins and 43 for Avengers? Compared to RT's 266 and 306. The Avengers had an A+ Cinema Score, 8/10 avegerage score rating for critics and 4.4/5 score for audiences.

Batman Begins got an A Cinema score, 7.7 average critic rating and a 3.9/5 audience score.

The difference on IMDB between the two is a .1 Begins lead.

Again, why do you need to make excuses to validate your opinion? I don´t see any real significant advantage. We have some sites where The Avengers wins and others where Batman Begins wins. It seems you´re trying to say the ones where BB wins don´t matter. And in this thread Batman Begins is only winning because we don´t have the votes of every single member. Otherwise The Avengers would crush Begins. Well, i think 100 votes would be enough to show all that superiority.

 

[def28]

Again, why do you need to make excuses to validate your opinion? I don´t see any real significant advantage. We have some sites where The Avengers wins and others where Batman Begins wins. It seems you´re trying to say the ones where BB wins don´t matter. And in this thread Batman Begins is only winning because we don´t have the votes of every single member. Otherwise The Avengers would crush Begins. Well, i think 100 votes would be enough to show all that superiority.

Excuses? I'm showing evidence. You don't have to agree with the popular opinion.

I could care less which one got the most votes as I love both. But your gonna have to show me proof that when you take all the critic reviews, cinema scores, audience reactions, past polls, box office returns, Blu Ray sales, etc that Begins is looked at as equal in terms of fans, audience and critic reviews. While both were received very well and like any film it's up to the viewer owns personal preference for the films quality, I don't see how Begins can have the upperhand in that regard.

 

[Killer]

Excuses? I'm showing evidence. You don't have to agree with the popular opinion.

I could care less which one got the most votes as I love both. But your gonna have to show me proof that when you take all the critic reviews, cinema scores, audience reactions, past polls, box office returns, Blu Ray sales, etc that Begins is looked at as equal in terms of fans, audience and critic reviews. While both were received very well and like any film it's up to the viewer owns personal preference for the films quality, I don't see how Begins can have the upperhand in that regard.

It doesn´t matter which has an upper hand based on those numbers. You´re talking about the opinions of people you don´t even know. You´re talking about numbers in a website. Numbers you don´t even know if they´re real. That´s all.

You say this thread doesn´t have enough votes and doesn´t represent the overall opinion. What about RT? Does it have enough votes and represents the overall opinion? I´d say the number of people who watched those movies and didn´t vote is much, much, much bigger than the number of people who actually voted. But to you i guess that´s ok, because it favours your stance, right? One thing is for sure: I don´t know whose opinions RT represents, but i know it doesn´t represent my opinion or the opinion of those i know.

To argue wich was better received between two movies that have like 2 or 3 points between them in most sites seems pointless. There isn´t a significant difference. And lets not even get into the FACT that a movie having a slight better rating in some sites can mean many things other than being better. Yeah, TA was probably a little better received. Just a little. But it was also more family friendly, better marketed, lighter, and overall an easier pill to swallow.Believe it or not, that can have an impact.

Oh, and btw, in this thread, created by me, you´re supposed to give your opinion and discuss why one movie is better than the other. This is not about RT´s scores.

 

[def28]

 

[Killer]

That´s pretty much me, when i see people like you, trying to discuss movies using numbers instead of well constructed arguments.

 

[def28]

Relax guy. You were debating and trying to use review sites yourself. Even good old IMDB.

 

[WingedAvenger89]

Begins, easily. Avengers is a comedy with no substance, that becomes a complete bore on repeat viewings. Batman Begins is an actual good movie, with layers, and depth. This is a no contest.

 

[Killer]

Relax guy. You were debating and trying to use review sites yourself. Even good old IMDB.

In response to your post. To show you that there was no definitive way to come up with the conclusion that TA has all those advantages(that in reality don´t matter one damn bit). Apparently, to you only RT e CinemaScore(lol) count. I guess IMDB would also count too if TA had a better rating.

I guess we don´t even need to discuss wich the better SH movie is anymore, because TDK beats them all. I mean, it has an average rating of 8.6 on RT, against TA´s 8.0. I guess this is the ultimate evidence TDK is the greatest, and folks who think otherwise are completely wrong. It´s not even worth to discuss it, apparently.

 

[Greens]

If Nolanites got Batman Begins up to 8,3 on IMDb, who got The Avengers up to 8,2? Whedonites?

 

[def28]

In response to your post. To show you that there was no definitive way to come up with the conclusion that TA has all those advantages(that in reality don´t matter one damn bit). Apparently, to you only RT e CinemaScore(lol) count. I guess IMDB would also count too if TA had a better rating.

I guess we don´t even need to discuss wich the better SH movie is anymore, because TDK beats them all. I mean, it has an average rating of 8.6 on RT, against TA´s 8.0. I guess this is the ultimate evidence TDK is the greatest, and folks who think otherwise are completely wrong. It´s not even worth to discuss it, apparently.

And my response was in regards to greens. I disagree with you. I think when you take all the reviews, scores, audiences reactions, sales etc like I said, it shows the general response with fans, audiences and critics were a bit better then Bat Begins. It's the best way to gauge that imo. Your personal opinion on that matter will not change mine.

Do I think that matters to ones personal opinion on the overall film and quality itself to the point where it's not up for discussion? No, films are subjective and opinions change. Your misinterpreting my view there.