Infinity War Avengers: Infinity War SPOILER User Review Thread - Part 1

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Yep. Some people have said there's no character development for the heroes here, but Tony's long-running arc was obviously furthered, Vision gaining humanity all shows that piece of criticism is unsupported.

I think the criticism is valid. Not for every character, but some. For example, what was Cap's arc? He had none. Many characters are in the movie, but lack an arc. I'm not saying no one had arcs, but I would say in a movie of like, 20+ heroes, only a handful of them did. But it's a 2 part movie, so the arcs for many are to come and the heroes will definitely be the focus of the next one, so it was not an issue for me. But, I do agree with the assessment.
 
I think the criticism is valid. Not for every character, but some. For example, what was Cap's arc? He had none. Many characters are in the movie, but lack an arc. I'm not saying no one had arcs, but I would say in a movie of like, 20+ heroes, only a handful of them did. But it's a 2 part movie, so the arcs for many are to come and the heroes will definitely be the focus of the next one, so it was not an issue for me. But, I do agree with the assessment.

What you and others have said is fair (i.e. that the film overall didn't have enough character development to go around). My response here was only to the criticism that aside from Thanos, no one else had any, which I think is plainly inaccurate.
 
I could see a scenario where he intends on sacrificing himself with Cap to use the gauntlet, but RIGHT as they finish the reverse, Cap knocks Tony off the gauntlet to take the sacrifice alone. Tony, shell shocked because Cap sacrificed himself for him and because he wants the happy ending, DOES retire for good.

I see something like this as well. It pays off Steve's guilt about the events of Civil War. And I think ultimately no one wants to see Pepper left alone and mourning after all the crap she's had to put up with.

I'm guessing A4 ends with a funeral AND a wedding.
 
I do think Cap was underplayed in this one. But I think that may have been intentional.
 
I didn't really pick up on it when I watched the film, partially because, yes, there are other characters who serve a similar role, like Loki.

However, ask yourself: what are the female heroes doing in this movie? What are their roles?

Gamora is the most prominent one. Her death is the pivotal moment in the protagonist's arc. Nebula's main thing is being tortured, as part of the dynamic between Thanos and Gamora.

Black Widow's role is entirely forgettable. Okoye is more memorable, but only because she steals a couple of scenes.

Wanda's role probably has the most substance, outside of Gamora.

So it's really hard to compare Gamora to Loki, in the sense that all of the heroes who have prominent roles in the film are male. Starlord, Tony, Strange, Spider-Man and Thor, especially.

I wouldn't dismiss the film on that basis, and I didn't really come out of the theater thinking about it, but I can understand why some people might not be too thrilled with that aspect of the film. They really need some female heroes who actually play pivotal roles (Captain Marvel).

I think as dudes watching the film, we are less likely to notice or be bothered by it.
I do understand what you are saying; so please, bare with me what i'm going to say.

For me, in this film, I didn't view it as some number of Males vs Females in prominent roles. One of the biggest male character...Cap, for the most, role in this film, was just about as nonessential as Falcon, War Machine & yes Black Widow. Those four character really affected little to nothing, in the grand scheme of things...they where a prop, to get Vision to Wakanda...that effectively it. Yet, it worked...their role filled a need in the story...not every character, female or not, has to be in the forefront, to showcase some PC equal billing. They just need to fulfill the role they are given.

With that said...Gamora & Wanda had imo, a very prominant role, that I would suggest, rival the role given to Tony & Stephen. Imo, there was four main stories being told, sorry Thor fans.

1st: Love at all cost, by Vision & Wanda...it was poignant when Vision told Wanda, "you can't hurt me" when encouraging her to commit a deathly act...because that reminded Wanda & the audience, that he was a machine. At some point, i personally became so wrapped up in their affection & love that was on display, i forgot he was not human. That he was an android that felt these very real emotions...even stumbling of his feeling when trying to express them. So he reminded us all, dont fear for me, you cant hurt me...but countless could if she don't do it.

2nd: The Arrogant Geniuses that had to quickly learn to trust each other insight, over their own....their own knowledge & intellect. That was very hard for these two. If Stephen wouldn't have back down & take the fight to Thanos on Titan & did what he insisted, that they get back to Earth, pronto....there may never had been that one glimpse if hope out of the 14 million plus, scenarios that Stephen saw. Same can be said with Tony now having to trust what Stephen did, was the right course of action. He asked Stephen, "why would you do that?" Because its was the only way...as hard as that was for Tony to accept, because of his own instinct & intuition on just destroying the stone, like Vision suggested to Wanda, he realized what Stephen was saying...it indeed the end game now.

3rd: Father & Daughter...which for me, was the most poignant part of the whole film. Through all of her, Gamora, bravado, she was really hurt for what she thought she done, in killing Thanos in "Knowhere". That was truly a heart felt weep for a father figure she despised. Thanos was on point when he said, "so there is Love there." That made his heart grow even more for her. I suspect, had she not shown so much raw feeling for him, it may not have been "As" hard for him to do this drastic deed. Not saying it would have been easy...just saying, the Mad Titan heart wept as tremendously as well at the notion of losing her forever. He stated when young Gamora ask the cost...."Everything".

Finally: Thanos Quest...we have been told, this was Thanos movie...and it was; so, kinda goes without saying.

It will be interesting to see how prominent CM & Wasp role turn out & if BW become more essential. Neitherless, everybody did well in the role they had been cast & the part they play in the story.
 
Gamora being "important" to the film means very little to me when the WAY that she was "important" was garbage. I'm sorry, but this was FAR worse than BW's role in AOU imo.
 
Evangeline Lily did say she is not in Avengers 4 much, so sadly that makes me think post credits, she disappears (and comes back with everyone else later). Then Ant-Man comes into the story for Avengers 4, which I see him having a role maybe the size of Strange's in IW.

That's how I see it playing out at least. I don't see people dusting before the post credits scene.

Honestly that would be a TERRIBLE decision imo.
 
I 100% disagree on Gamora's role being garbage. The scenes between her and Thanos were the highlight of the film for me. The 2 times I felt the most tension were Knowhere and the Soul Stone scene. Those are probably my 2 favorite scenes in the movie. I thought this was a very strong showing for Gamora.
 
Gamora being "important" to the film means very little to me when the WAY that she was "important" was garbage. I'm sorry, but this was FAR worse than BW's role in AOU imo.

Do you think Gamora's role in giving Thanos depth was a fridging trope?
 
Honestly that would be a TERRIBLE decision imo.

Given Lily herself says she is not in Avengers 4 very much...I don't see it playing out any different. Some important Ant-Man people have to disappear. Wasp is what I am most excited for in A&W, so on one hand it is disappointing. But at the same time, Avengers 4 should be about the OG Avengers 1st, and everyone else 2nd.
 
Not everyone needed to be the "focus" of the movie. It's impossible, especially in a movie with some 20+ characters in it. IMO, they treated the movie like most "Comic Events" and it worked. They focused on the characters that they needed to propel the story along.

Now, I personally think A4 isn't going to lean on the original 6 (Cap, Thor, IM, Hulk, BW,Hawkeye) with Ant-Man, Rhodey, Rocket and Okoyo playing "support". It would make sense considering they were the originals and this movie is about "closing a chapter".
 
It was well-acted, but her role was still garbage. Her entire role was being led around as a captive for a big chunk of her screentime, giving Thanos exactly what he wanted, and then being dragged kicking and screaming over to a cliff and thrown off so that daddy could win and yet feel sad, and her BF can get angry later. She was a prop and a sacrificial lamb.

And that's supposed to be a "strong showing" for her, yeah no. At least Natasha wasn't fridged to make Banner feel bad in AOU.
 
Given Lily herself says she is not in Avengers 4 very much...I don't see it playing out any different. Some important Ant-Man people have to disappear. Wasp is what I am most excited for in A&W, so on one hand it is disappointing. But at the same time, Avengers 4 should be about the OG Avengers 1st, and everyone else 2nd.

I didn't say that I didn't believe that it would happen. I said that it would be an awful decision. If you want to focus on the OG Avengers, then dust Scott as well. Either dust both of them, or neither of them.
 
Given Lily herself says she is not in Avengers 4 very much...I don't see it playing out any different. Some important Ant-Man people have to disappear. Wasp is what I am most excited for in A&W, so on one hand it is disappointing. But at the same time, Avengers 4 should be about the OG Avengers 1st, and everyone else 2nd.

It would be better to take Scott and leave Hope, but it is what it is.
 
Do you think Gamora's role in giving Thanos depth was a fridging trope?

Yes it absolutely was, a textbook definition of a fridging actually.

And before anyone says anything, no her dying is NOT my problem with it, I'm fine with that idea. It's HOW she dies and HOW she's used before hand that irritates me.

Now you want to know two non-fridging MCU deaths that actually worked? Peggy Carter in CW and Wanda here.
 
Honestly, piggy backing off the "trading lives" theme in IW and what you already discussed, I think it ends up being Steve AND Tony who have to trade their lives for everyone who was "dusted". They'll use the gauntlet together to stay alive long enough to reverse those deaths. Then...BOOM. They gone. I definitely think it's going to be Tony because you can't talk about "living happily ever after" and make it out. Though...

I could see a scenario where he intends on sacrificing himself with Cap to use the gauntlet, but RIGHT as they finish the reverse, Cap knocks Tony off the gauntlet to take the sacrifice alone. Tony, shell shocked because Cap sacrificed himself for him and because he wants the happy ending, DOES retire for good.

The old Armageddon trick eh?
 
I didn't say that I didn't believe that it would happen. I said that it would be an awful decision. If you want to focus on the OG Avengers, then dust Scott as well. Either dust both of them, or neither of them.

If A&W is going to introduce plot elements vital to Avengers 4, you cannot dust them both. One of them is needed in order to help the Avengers, and it makes sense to use Scott as he has a relationship with some of the Avengers. They don't know Hope.
 
On the other hand it would be really cool if the daughter of Hank Pym worked with Stark's son. Maybe we will get Hank with Tony tho.
 
It was well-acted, but her role was still garbage. Her entire role was being led around as a captive for a big chunk of her screentime, giving Thanos exactly what he wanted, and then being dragged kicking and screaming over to a cliff and thrown off so that daddy could win and yet feel sad, and her BF can get angry later. She was a prop and a sacrificial lamb.

And that's supposed to be a "strong showing" for her, yeah no. At least Natasha wasn't fridged to make Banner feel bad in AOU.

I would say Gamora was a tad more than just a prop. She attempted to sacrifice herself on two occasions, saved her sister from torture and tried to talk the big guy down from his obsession. I understand why many fans of Hulk, Vision and Gamora were disappointed in their impotence in IW, but I suspect all three will be key to taking down the Mad Titan next year.
 
For me, in this film, I didn't view it as some number of Males vs Females in prominent roles. One of the biggest male character...Cap, for the most, role in this film, was just about as nonessential as Falcon, War Machine & yes Black Widow. Those four character really affected little to nothing, in the grand scheme of things...they where a prop, to get Vision to Wakanda...that effectively it. Yet, it worked...their role filled a need in the story...not every character, female or not, has to be in the forefront, to showcase some PC equal billing. They just need to fulfill the role they are given.

It's true that not all of the male characters have amazing roles (and Loki can be said to be used in a way that is somewhat similar to Gamora).

But the fact remains that there isn't a single female hero featured as prominently Tony, Thor, Starlord, Strange, and Spidey. Gamora has a prominent role, but she is the sacrificial victim.

So, is it really about PC equality, or is it about having maybe one female superhero with a role like Thor's, or Strange's, or Tony's?

The studio is clearly aware that they are lacking in that department, and that Captain Marvel will make a difference. Hopefully, other characters after that.

But the strongest negative reactions to the film I have personally seen have come from women who loved movies like Ragnarok and Black Panther. With regard to roles played by female characters in those films, the difference is pretty glaring. Characters like Valkyrie, Hela, Okoye and Shuri had much better roles in those films.

Thor, Hulk, Black Panther, Killmonger... those characters all had great roles also, so it's not one or the other.

Or perfect equality, for that matter. The featured characters in those two movies were Thor + Hulk, then T'challa + Killmonger.

I'm not saying that it negates the positive aspects of Infinity War, but I don't think that the concern can be dismissed as inconsequential either. Even from a monetary standpoint, it's not smart.

When these movies bring in a lot of women in the audience, it can have a huge impact. Ask James Cameron.
 
With all due respect, if you think Gamora got "fridged" then you must believe that Loki and Heimdall did as well, right?
 
Loki and Heimdall had some agency. They chose to take on Thanos, in order to protect others.

Gamora wants to make that choice, but is essentially robbed of it. She spends much of the movie as a captive, and is just dispatched of for purposes of the MacGuffin based plot.

I 100% disagree on Gamora's role being garbage. The scenes between her and Thanos were the highlight of the film for me. The 2 times I felt the most tension were Knowhere and the Soul Stone scene. Those are probably my 2 favorite scenes in the movie. I thought this was a very strong showing for Gamora.

Gamora's role isn't bad per se, it's just...she reacts to things, and we get a bit of backstory in terms of how she ended up with Thanos. Thanos himself is sort of regretful about what he'll have to do, but never seems to truly mourn her. It's another means to an end.

Based on what's in the film, it feels like maybe there was some kind of father/daughter quasi reconciliation idea left on the cutting room floor. Something more cathartic. Something like that could have improved her role. After all, he's her father, despite what he's done...but her feelings about him don't ever change, her perspective never changes...she's just sort of along for the ride.

If is how she's going to go out, the character deserved a little more attention, not just to be a cog in Thanos' story.
 
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Gamora's role isn't bad per se, it's just...she reacts to things, and we get a bit of backstory in terms of how she ended up with Thanos. And then she's essentially fridged. And Thanos himself is sort of regretful about what he'll have to do, but never seems to truly mourn her. It's another means to an end.

Based on what's in the film, it feels like maybe there was some kind of father/daughter quasi reconciliation idea left on the cutting room floor. Something more cathartic. Something like that could have improved her role. After all, he's her father, despite what he's done...but her feelings about him don't ever change, her perspective never changes...she's just sort of along for the ride.

It's a fast paced movie, but that said, Thanos has 2 moments where he reflects. After he does it, and after the snap when he is in the soul realm. He gets what he wants, but for him it is bittersweet as he remembers what it cost him. So he clearly mourns her.
 
With all due respect, if you think Gamora got "fridged" then you must believe that Loki and Heimdall did as well, right?

This has already been addressed. They sort of did, but it's hardly comparable.

Gamora's role is much more of a focal point, and it's the most prominent role for any female hero in the movie.

I mean, we can pretend that it's the same, if you want, but the difference should really be clear to anyone.
 
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