Infinity War Avengers: Infinity War SPOILER User Review Thread - Part 2

[chintai80]

No thanks.

ok.

 

[Tempus Fugit]

Yes…and don’t movies have to work on their own?

Movies do not have to always work on their own.

EX. The Two Towers, Harry Potter VII - 1, Kill Bill Vol. 1

I'm not making a judgement stating if this particular movie should have worked on its own, just pointing out that they don't always have to and sometimes are better if they do not.

 

[The Guard]

You're, of course, entitled to feeling that the execution wasn't enough, was subpar. I was addressing what you said, "I don't feel that briefly looking sad is an appropriate portrayal of genuinely mourning someone that you really didn't want to lose". When the movie provided more than 'briefly looking sad' with three different instances of his grief manifesting -- his own when he tosses Gamora to her demise, an empath reading of it, the soul gem asking of the toll enacted on him.

If you are dissatisfied with how things panned out in the movie, that's fine, but you painted an incorrect situation in the movie here.

But it's essentially three brief instances of looking sad.

My issue isn't that Thanos never looks sad.

It's that the film tells us, rather directly, that he lost everything. The word "everything" is supposed to be this big, important thing he had, and valued, and a major choice he has to make.

Kay.

So what does that mean?

Develop that. What did he lose? What potential was lost? Why did he love Gamora in the first place? Why did he rescue her? What was the point of making her into the fiercest warrior? Beyond "I want you to sit on the throne", what were his hopes for Gamora and his legacy? What was their relationship at the end? Did it change? Did they find any mutual ground?

There are these little snippets introduced throughout their plot-based conversations, but they never seem to become anything or go anywhere. The film doesn't have a conversation about much of anything. It's all very surface.

You can say "Well, the father had to kill his daughter" all day long, but that does not, in itself, make for a powerful concept or a good overall execution or exploration of it. In this case, the father abused his daughters, his favorite one wanted to kill him, he didn't seem to care too much about her compared to his quest and in fact used her for his quest...and then didn't seem to care about her in relation to his quest. There's some pretty rich material there to work with, and they just...kind of didn't.

Essentially, while the actual moment of sacrifice was fairly well executed, in terms of filmmaking, I just didn't buy it. The film didn't do the heavy lifting to make me believe there was anything there to the relationship prior to the event happening.

 

[Ninjablade]

Fairly certain the term refers to an instance where a female character is killed or otherwise suffers to motivate a male character.

I don't think that being their sole purpose in the plot enters into it.

Fridging refers specifically to a female character who is used this way.

Fridging doesn't really have a set definition, but is most commonly used as a term for any character whose: a) attack/death is very brutal -for woman usually involving some form of sexual assault (edit: usually also involves the character being completely helpless) b)sole reason for being there is to die, c) death doesn't inform their own character in any way shape or form.

Said character that dies has to be viewed as disposable.

 

[PacificBoy]

But it's essentially three brief instances of looking sad.

My issue isn't that Thanos never looks sad.

It's that the film tells us, rather directly, that he lost everything. The "everything" is supposed to be this big, important choice he has to make.

Kay.

What does that mean?

Develop that. What did he lose? What potential was lost? Why did he love Gamora in the first place? Why did he rescue her? What was the point of making her the fiercest warrior? Beyond "I want you to sit on the throne", what were his hopes for Gamora and his legacy? What was their relationship at the end? Did it change? Did they find any mutual ground?

There are these little snippets introduced, but they never become anything or go anywhere. The film doesn't have a conversation about much of anything. It's all very surface.

You can say "Well, the father had to kill his daughter" all day long, but that does not, in itself, make for a powerful concept or a good overall execution of it. In this case, the father abused his daughter, she wanted to kill him, he didn't seem to care too much about her compared to his quest and in fact used her for his quest...and then didn't seem to care about her in relation to his quest.

Essentially, while the actual moment of sacrifice was fairly well executed, in terms of filmmaking, I just didn't buy it. The film didn't do the heavy lifting to make me believe there was anything there prior to it happening.

What did his lose? His daughter which the soul gem revealed he cared for more than a little.

What potential was lost? Any future relationship with a daughter who would take over his empire and sees (and oversees) his worldview, as established in the dialogue they had in the throne room.

Why did he love Gamora in the first place? Why did Pa Kent love Clark in MoS? Not too dissimilar really, alien children adopted under difficult circumstances, paternal love (in their different fashion) came to be. Beyond a 'briefly shown' "you're my son" we didn't get that much also from Pa Kent to indicate a why.

Why did he rescue her? She was a random child who he chanced upon during her people's massacre. He saw some spunk in her and took her in.

What was the point of making her the fiercest warrior? Because she emerged as the best amongst the adopted brood.

Beyond "I want you to sit on the throne", what were his hopes for Gamora and his legacy? Same answer as 'what potential was lost'.

What was their relationship at the end? Did it change? Did they find any mutual ground? Yes it changed, because she finds out he did love her, in his own twisted way. As did he when she cried upon thinking she slayed him before that. No mutual ground was to be had, it'd appear in the end.

All these seem fairly clearly evidenced in the movie.

 

[chintai80]

yea i like how they established the relationship btwn gamora and thanos in it.

they did not really have to spell it out for you.
it's a case of less is more.

you can tell how conflicted she was. she acts like she despised him all this time but she deep down she still loves him.

when she thought she killed him in knowhere in that illusion, she broke down crying.

very good acting by zoe saldana in this.

it's a twisted relationship, but they were "real" father and daughter.

 

[Donner]

This seems like such a pointless argument, something The Guard is known for. Yeesh.

 

[The Guard]

What did his lose? His daughter which the soul gem revealed he cared for more than a little.

What potential was lost? Any future relationship with a daughter who would take over his empire and sees (and oversees) his worldview, as established in the dialogue they had in the throne room.

But that's just a vague "future relationship". None of that is explored. He doesn't talk about his desires beyond "I want you to sit on the throne". Ok, and do what? Is his empire full of people that she has to protect? Does he just want her to carry on killing half the people on every planet?

Why did he rescue her? She was a random child who he chanced upon during her people's massacre. He saw some spunk in her and took her in.

So is he just going to rescue any child who shows spunk? And if so...why?

Beyond "I want you to sit on the throne", what were his hopes for Gamora and his legacy? Same answer as 'what potential was lost'.

And again...vague. Ill defined within the film.

What was their relationship at the end? Did it change? Did they find any mutual ground? Yes it changed, because she finds out he did love her, in his own twisted way. As did he when she cried upon thinking she slayed him before that. No mutual ground was to be had, it'd appear in the end.

So aside from her being surprised that he loved her...nothing about their relationship changed.

What was the point of making her the fiercest warrior? Because she emerged as the best amongst the adopted brood.

The point of making her the fiercest warrior was...that she emerged the fiercest warrior? But what is the relevance of that?

Why did he love Gamora in the first place? Why did Pa Kent love Clark in MoS? Not too dissimilar really, alien children adopted under difficult circumstances, paternal love (in their different fashion) came to be. Beyond a 'briefly shown' "you're my son" we didn't get that much also from Pa Kent to indicate a why.

But here's the difference between these two portraysls; Pa Kent and Ma Kent have a far more traditional emotional relationship with Clark. They're not abusing him in any direct way, so there's a whole lot less question as to whether they love him. In fact, we see Pa and Ma mentoring and protecting Clark.

Pa Kent shows that paternal love. He shows that he is trying, even if he is struggling with Clark's issues. Thanos doesn't show that he loves Gamora, at least as he grows. We're told that he subjected her and Gamora to abuse, and we see it happening in this film. And maybe he does that because this is all he knows, and this is HOW he shows love...as he knows love. And that might have been at least somewhat intriguing.

But the film doesn't even go into "I loved you the only way I know how", or anything along those lines. There's no resolution between them about his lifetime of mistreatment of her beyond "surprise, I actually love you", which is not terribly compelling on its own.

All these seem fairly clearly evidenced in the movie.

And this is my point. I know that these vague concepts are in the movie. But none of that is particularly interesting. It's surface.

In the end, it ties together their story with no particular detail about their relationship, and ultimately relies on the fact that parents are supposed to love their children, despite the fact that this is not what we have been presented with. At all.

They're supposed to have this twisted relationship, and their relationship SHOULD be unique in that sense, but what the movie seems to end up relying on is, again, not what makes these two unique, or a dysfunctional relationship unique, but the common idea that "parents are supposed to love their children and vice versa". It's just surface.

In many ways, the fate of main characters from two franchises turns on the few scenes they have together. Thanos himself is arguably the main character of the film. I felt like there needed to be a bit more about their relationship to make it really compelling, and to make his sacrifice meaningful in context.

 

[Dark Raven]

This seems like such a pointless argument, something The Guard is known for. Yeesh.

I have not been following it, because it seemed so pointless. What is he saying in a nutshell?

 

[InCali]

This seems like such a pointless argument, something The Guard is known for. Yeesh.

It's not even worth bothering with. Neither is the "somebody has to die" BS.

 

[InCali]

I have not been following it, because it seemed so pointless. What is he saying in a nutshell?

You forgot dull.

 

[PacificBoy]

The point of making her the fiercest warrior was...that she emerged the fiercest warrior? But what is the relevance of that?

And this is my point. I know that this is in the movie. But none of that is particularly interesting. It's surface.

In the end, it loosely ties together their story with no particular detail, and ultimately relies on the fact that parents are supposed to love their children, despite the fact that this is not what we have been presented with. At all. They're supposed to have this twisted relationship, and their relationship should be unique in that sense, but what the movie seems to end up relying on is the common idea that "parents are supposed to love their children and vice versa". There's nothing beyond that.

How does fleshing her out as the fiercest warrior help improve the Thanos-Gamora relationship? Maybe you could expand on this for me.

And my other furnished answers check out, yeah? I'm getting the impression you may have missed parts of the movie for those questions to have been asked. The throne room scene, in particular, addresses a good number of your queries.

I don't think the movie relies on "parents are supposed to love their children and vice versa". It's saying the opposite really. As a paternal figure (he calls practically everyone a child, save for Tony and the Asgardians), Thanos' version of father knows best is the worst.

 

[Orius]

My spoiler review. Because of its length, I'm gonna keep it under spoiler tag:

Spoiler

Jesus Christ, they finally did it. They actually did it. They've killed more than half of the Avengers. *slow clap*

I mean, I did expect some deaths to occur. This is the build-up of 10 years, after all, so there has to be more stake in it than the other MCU films. But this is something beyond my expectations. And that shows how little faith I had in the MCU, not to mention unobservant. I should've seen the signs. The stringency in keeping the cast members unaware of what the script is about (you could see it in the actors' expressions at the end; they were totally clueless what was about to unfold!), not to mention the strangely conspicuous statements of "this will not be a two-parter." I even remember one statement saying how Spider-Man's sequel will be released immediately (or almost immediately) after Infinity War as he reflects on the events on the film, making me believe that those with blatantly long-term contracts will never die.

Poor Peter... oh god, poor Peter Parker. I broke down at that one scene. I almost wished he wouldn't have said those words before he actually said them. I kinda wanted that scene to unfold the way it did, because it would've driven home that in spite of his powers, he's still just a kid among these grown-ups. But actually seeing it broke my heart and my tear-ducts.

And that ending. When it arrived, and the credits started rolling, I was literally left speechless. Not that I usually talk to myself in the theater after a movie ends, but this ending was different in a lot of ways beyond the obvious. No fancy credit sequence, no uplifting Avengers theme, just a silent credit-roll. It was somber and depressing, like an obituary or a funeral. A perfect fitting ending. I kept waiting for a silver lining, for some mid-credit sequence to show Dr. Strange reversing time, or something... anything that would have cheapened the ending. And nothing. All I was left with was the haunting memory of Peter's wailing, that he didn't want to die.

****, I'm tearing up.

But putting aside the shock factor, is it a good movie? I'd say more than yes. Much like Thanos' twisted philosophy, the movie itself is very well-balanced with drama and comedy. When things become terribly heartbreaking, it would often skip to funny parts and lighten the audience up. And the reverse is true too; the laughs don't overshadow the emotional stakes.

And boy, were there emotional stakes. There were stakes for everyone, Thanos included. Almost everyone had something to lose, from Thor to Star Lord to Iron Man himself. Putting that ending aside, the death sequences that were given more screentime and significance - Gamora, Loki, and even Spider-Man in spite of him joining the disappearing act - those deaths were the best moments in the movie and very well-executed. It's easy to mess up a death scene and make it anticlimactic, whether it's through the sprouting of cheesy "last words" or because there was no build-up to the sudden death, a death scene just has many ways to be ruined, and I think Marvel did it perfectly here with those three aforementioned deaths. Loki's in particular, was the perfect way to start the movie. It's Marvel telling us, "**** just go real, gentlemen. **** just got real."

But of course, there was one particular death that was kinda weak. It's the very same 'death' that left me speechless in the first place. Yep, the disappearing act at the end.

Look, I'm thoroughly impressed that Marvel did it. This was what I wanted. But only after watching my dream coming true did I learn an important lesson on how a good idea that sounded good on paper can be disappointing when made into reality. We all know Black Panther isn't going to die permanently, nor Spidey, nor Star Lord, and especially not Dr. Strange. That ending made it a bit too obvious that Dr. Strange is going to pull some kind of Deus ex Machina to reverse this, and that's a big problem with the script. In exchange for being so ambitious, Marvel overplayed their cards a bit.

And it's only just "a bit" with emphasis, because it was still done very well. Killing off so many characters in the Infinity Gauntlet comic was such an important and integral part of the story that I just don't know how else Marvel could have imitated the kind of stakes that existed in the comic. Irregardless of hindsight, that surprise was a big surprise. It might have felt like an illusion after some realization of Dr. Strange's inevitable reversal in Avengers 4, but that's the beauty of movies - an illusion that feels real in the moment. And more importantly is that one scene that comes directly before the disappearance - Thanos solemnly telling a young Gamora that yes, he did it. He killed the Marvel Universe. Not only was it a very "waitwut?!" moment that would make the audience do a spit take, it was a very powerful moment that makes you feel the pain of Thanos, that he had to do the inevitable, and that there was nothing that could have prevented this ending, not even Thanos himself. He probably cried along with the audience at the loss; his loss. That's how that final scene with young Gamora felt like.

And that's another checkbox that's checked in my book - Thanos' relationship with Gamora explored and given a powerful spotlight. I wanted Gamora to be more than just one of the many who wants to kill Thanos. I wanted her to play a pivotal role in the movie, and she did so beautifully by being Thanos' very own emotional baggage, being the very heart he had to gorge out of his chest to achieve his insane destiny.

Now that we've gotten all the awesomeness outta the way, it's time to get into the faults (though I wouldn't necessarily call them faults and more like squandered potential that would've made the movie better). Let's start with the most obvious one: too many characters.

There are a few characters that didn't receive the proper spotlight I wish they would've been given, but it's very few. The one name that comes to mind is Drax. Thanos killed his family, but the purple Titan merely shrugged him away like it's nothing. That bugged me a little, and I kinda wish Drax would have more to say about Thanos or more involvement like Gamora did.

Then there's Cap himself. While him wrestling with Thanos holding the Power Stone was impressive, I feel like we didn't get to see as much involvement on Cap's part as Iron Man, Dr. Strange and the other big players. Even Bruce Banner edges out a bit more in the level of significance his role is to the story. Black Panther is even worse because he only arrives at the final part as a very secondary side character. Both of these heroes are leaders who are at the forefront of the biggest war in the universe, and more to the point, both of them are strategists, Cap more so than Panther, but neither of them had enough screentime to display their tactical prowess in the most important war of the MCU. Cap, especially, is a soldier, so I wish he had a bigger involvement in a movie with "war" in its title, especially when it's, like I said, the most important war.

Finally, I feel like they've missed a chance to let Spidey do his friendly neighborhood thing when New York is attacked. I wanted to see that parallel where he, just a street-level hero, is faced with the realization that he has to confront a cosmic-level threat. I wanted visual storytelling to show that Spidey knows he's way out of his league (since internal monologue doesn't work in movies). But again, Spidey's main reason for being there was for that very emotional death scene at the end. It was a good death scene nonetheless, but when I put it like that, in that kind of sentence and context, it made it seem like Spidey's main role in the movie is just to die, which almost makes him seem like a plot-device at best, and a contrived way to manipulate the audience's emotions at worst. It doesn't help that "the kid dies" isn't a very original way to insert a tragedy.

But I'll be honest with you. When I started writing this review, I knew that I would really have to dug deep in order to find any proper "faults" at all, because this movie has really impressed me and has left me more than satisfied. Those "faults" barely even outweigh the good points at all. Marvel has accomplished an amazing dream that defies cinematic conventions, building up a story that made up of 18 movies and 10 years. We care about these characters because their story and character development have been established for a long time, and this movie is the culmination of all those plot-threads tied together. It's a massive story told over multiple movies, and I don't think I've seen any other franchises quite like this, save a few very long-running series like Star Trek and Star Wars, maybe.

Unfortunately, that's the final fault of Infinity War: you have to watch the other movies. In order to have the kind of emotional investment the creators intended, you have to watch Guardians, you have to watch Thor, and you have to watch Spider-Man (and his role in Civil War). Otherwise, Spider-Man's death and Tony's biggest fear that Peter's blood is on his hands would mean nothing to you, and he'll be just some kid who dies. A movie that relies on other movies to tell its story is something I still have trouble accepting, especially when Infinity War relies so much on that build-up over 10 years to have that effective emotional resonance and investment. So for that, I have to minus half a star. This might change in the future, however. I'm still figuring how how I feel about the cinematic universe design.

Final point of this review: I hope Avengers 4 doesn't suck. Marvel has built up so much of a good thing here in Infinity War with the stakes being more real than any of their other movies, so I hope those stakes won't go to waste. I hope Avengers 4 won't be just "Hooray! We are alive again! Okay, let's party." I hope some deaths remain permanent. I hope that when they do get revived, they will retain the memories of being dead. The afterlife, I want to see their reaction to that. The spring has been loaded; let's hope that Marvel maintains that momentum and make it bounce back up properly.

4/5

 

[The Guard]

How does fleshing her out as the fiercest warrior help improve the Thanos-Gamora relationship? Maybe you could expand on this for me.

I mean, it seemed important enough for writers to dwell on it in two Guardians movies...

Its not my job to follow up on dangling character elements from other movies...it's the filmmakers'. I assume it has something to do with survival/waging war/killing instinct. This film never goes into it.

And my other furnished answers check out, yeah? I'm getting the impression you may have missed parts of the movie for those questions to have been asked. The throne room scene, in particular, addresses a good number of your queries.

You just quoted me saying that I know all that is in the film, and feel that it is surface.

My questions were not designed to to fill in blanks that I don't know. I know whats in the film. My questions are designed to illustrate the kind of issues that could have been explored, and the fact that the blanks the film fills in are vague and generic, and not explored in any real sense.

I don't think the movie relies on "parents are supposed to love their children and vice versa". It's saying the opposite really. As a paternalistic figure (he calls practically everyone a child, save for Tony and the Asgardians), Thanos' version of father knows best is the worst.

So why does Gamora break down sobbing when she thinks she's killed Thanos? If we're not supposed to rely on the fact that he's her father and she's just supposed to love him, why does she break down sobbing?

Where does the film contexualize anything else?

And I get that father knows best is worst. But the film barely goes there. What we see is a surface version of that. You can't create a villain, have him be a terrible person at every turn, say "Surprise, I love you" at a pivotal moment, fail to explain how and why that is, and expect that to have thematic weight.

 

[PacificBoy]

And I get that. But what we see is a surface version of that. You can't create a villain, have him be a terrible person at every turn, say "Surprise, I love you" at a pivotal moment, fail to explain how and why that is, and expect that to have thematic weight.

But he doesn't go 'surprise I love you'. It went 'I'm surprised I love you'.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I have not been following it, because it seemed so pointless. What is he saying in a nutshell?

Movie useless, characters thrown away in a mixer, potential wasted.
Could have been much better.

 

[Broseph44]

Movie useless, characters thrown away in a mixer, potential wasted.
Could have been much better.

Lord

 

[PacificBoy]

The Guard, I do enjoy your insight despite not always agreeing with you on what you say, but we are just going in circles at the moment, and boring everyone else in turn. So I'm bowing out here.

 

[The Guard]

But he doesn't go 'surprise I love you'. It went 'I'm surprised I love you'.

Its still surface.

 

[Timebomb]

Anybody think that Vision might be alive within the stone and might be working against Thanos from within? Just a thought I had.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Hahaha - I learned a long time ago to not get into it with the Guard. You'll never win. But you will feel like Doctor Strange battling against Dormmamu in an endless time loop where you get killed again and again in horrifying ways.

Anybody think that Vision might be alive within the stone and might be working against Thanos from within? Just a thought I had.

Yes! Definitely had the same thought.

 

[chintai80]

Anybody think that Vision might be alive within the stone and might be working against Thanos from within? Just a thought I had.

hmm, that would be interesting.
the mind stone was said to contain a type of articificial intelligence in AoU right?

so a part of vision must still exist somewhere in there.

 

[squeekness]

So, does this mean they don't have raccoons in Asgard?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

So, does this mean they don't have raccoons in Asgard?

They have rabbits.

 

[chintai80]

So, does this mean they don't have raccoons in Asgard?

they definitely have rabbits.