Avengers the Initiative

[TheCorpulent1]

Pretty appropriate for Marvel's US government these days.

 

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, oddly, the government is not YET to the point of Supreme Power where the United States might as well be controlled by Sauron from the Tower of Minas Morgul but its getting there.

Tony Stark: Wormtongue!

Reed: Yes master!

 

[Colossal Spoons]

The government in New Universal is pretty wicked too.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, oddly, the government is not YET to the point of Supreme Power where the United States might as well be controlled by Sauron from the Tower of Minas Morgul but its getting there.

Tony Stark: Wormtongue!

Reed: Yes master!

Haha, would that make Hank Saruman?

 

[Dread]

I reread the issue, and I think it IS worth noting that in the Armory/Trauma scene, the only "superhero counselor" in the room was Gauntlet. War Machine, Yellowjacket and Justice were not in the room and if Gyrich's orders are to be carried out, won't know the true nature of the incident. I would imagine Justice would have been irked if/when he finds out MVP died during a training exercise. But he wasn't there and if Gyrich has his way, no one will tell him (I can imagine they may make up some story, like MVP quit or was taken in by SHIELD or the CSA because he was ahead of the class or whatnot).

It is a little weird that they preach on and on about how reckless the NEW WARRIORS were and use them as the negative example of a superhero, and then make a blunder like that. Yes, Armory wasn't exactly an A-student. Her "weapon" essentially did most of the work for her and she just had to aim and jump around, so she was arrogant. And she did freak out at Trauma's power, which is apparently to tranform into a giant version of someone's worst fears. But, it is a fair point that even though I am sure the doc & Gyrich may not have known PRECISELY how Trauma's powers worked (the kid had to tell them that alone against robots he'd be practically useless, and Armory happened to be there). Fans who have become used to insider conspiracies since, understandably, Marvel has done a lot of that since CW, Gyrich only wanted Armory's weapon and was setting her up to fail, and MVP's death was just an accident (although if his autopsy revealed something useful, like a more workable super-soldier treatment, Gyrich would be even more pleased). Or, it could have been something akin to real life blunders; despite all the talk and research and facts, the authorities simply underestimated the situation and got in over their heads because real life NEVER works out as planned. That was pretty much how a lot of Iraq's blunders happened. We overthrew Saddam as planned, but we underestimated the insurgency, we allowed chaos to rule the streets too long, and so on. None of that was planned. It simply was reality working against the sometimes optimistic or one-sided planning of "experts".

I do appreciate that unlike some writers, like JMS and Hudlin, Slott has no confusion as to what the SHRA is supposed to entail, which is that a superhero has to reveal their identity to the government, NOT THE PUBLIC. They don't have to unmask at press conferences and they can still have a secret identity even if the CSA & SHIELD know it. Of course, the way Gauntlet goes on about it is rude and obnoxious, but he's playing the "surly boot camp sarge" role, which entails acting like a *****e. I mean, ever seen FULL METAL JACKET? It's been ripped off endlessly for a reason. The camp uniforms are functional, though.

I do hope that some of the more "established" recruits, like Rage, Stingray, etc. do manage to end up a grade above the rest because they were experienced heroes for a while, rather than being newbs whose powers are still a mystery. Cloud 9 is easily going to be the POV character, as she never really wanted to be a superhero, she just wanted to fly, and this is how the SHRA is effecting those sorts of metahumans. I really doubt Slott's goal with this series is to tell us how wonderful the SHRA is. I think the goal is to show us what it would operate like, warts and all. After all, as messy as the Armory incident was, imagine if she freaked out inside a shopping mall during some battle, and not there. More than one person could have been killed (Komodo would have been too, if she couldn't regenerate). It is a shame that despite endless issues showing the New Warriors training and being competant, they ended up as the jokes of the Marvel Universe, but that was not a decision Slott made, but Millar & the editorial board. His SHE-HULK #8 was a comment on that and he's simply working with what he has. Marvel was interested in a series showing how their Initiative would operate and I trust Slott because even when he goofs, he knows his stuff and cares about the research. Marvel can't do an about face and mention that the NW were no better or worse than no end of X-Men teams, and that if fighting Nitro in a populated area is "reckless", then every superhero who was ever battled him, including Iron Man, has been reckless. It's too late for that. In some ways CW didn't work because it preyed upon some of the genre conventions of superhero comics, such as most collatoral damage not resulting in fatalities, villians being captured only to reappear, and so on. There were probably easier and more subtle ways to have done a CW type story instead of the Hollywood popcorn, WWE esque story we got from Millar & Co., but what is done is done. We've all already complained about all that and it's moot to do so now. Considering what he was given, I think Slott is off to a decent start. No, it's not a perfect or ideal camp. I don't think that is the intention. I don't think Slott wants us to believe The Initiative is wonderful, and that was obvious from the interviews when he said essentially it was "the price of registering". That doesn't sound nice. No one likes "prices" for anything.

It will be something when they get some wacked out metahuman whose powers can't simply be removed, but that may have been why Armory was created. Sometimes writers create a "character" for a very simple, blunt purpose. Marv Wolfman & George Perez basically only created Terra so she could betray the Teen Titans, and have admitted so in interviews. It happens. I'd rather Slott or another writer, when they have to sacrifice a character for a plot point, use one of their own vs. someone else's who makes less sense. It's why THE AMERICA WAY can work because it explored made up characters, but a simular story with established ones could never work.

Rage's metal mask was scarier than his yellow ski, though. And according to the BATTLE DAMAGE FILES, Stingray has been sent to the camp supposedly "to learn how to fight without relying entirely on his exosuit". Which of course sounds silly because it's not like Tony Stark or Rhodey are much use without their armor, but that's what's been written as canon. Ideally, it would be good if we saw a scene where the "new kids" are watching some team sessions with the more experienced "sophmore/junior/senior" heroes like Rage, Stingray, Slapstick, Thor Girl, and Ultra-Girl. It could make it seem more layered.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

My whole original point was that Gauntlet and Hank and the other adults seem to be pretty quick to point fingers at Armory and declare her the wild threat in this, and pretty damn slow to look at their own accountability for this mess. So a kid screws up and hurts people with her powers. Okay. But isn't that what they expected to happen? Isn't that what this place was built for in the first place? Isn't it their jobs to make sure it doesn't happen? So when accidents like this actually happen, does it say more about the kid or about their inability to train the kid? They knew and we knew that superpowered teens are dangerous. That was never in doubt, or at least it shouldn't have been. The only real question here was whether or not the adults in question would be able to "housebreak" these kids. Signs so far? Point to no.

To the beginning, I do agree. It felt extreme at first for her to be kicked out. Though I DO think in real military training, if you accidentally kill a squadmate, you're brigged, then let go.

However, and this will probably be resaid later on, they didn't know about her Arachnophobia, and despite what you've kind of pointed to believe about the Registration act, they dont put helmets on their heads at the beginning, and suck out all the info and secrets out of their head for their own personal fun. They more or less have a rundown of their powers, and that's it. Should they be given a psych evaluation before joining? Hell yeah. I probably wouldn't trust Slapstick as far as I could throw him in terms of how mentally stable he just looks like he is.

You cover what training next, so I'll speak of it there.

Speaking of the training...I gotta ask, what training? Their whole original complaint was that kids who aren't trained will make mistakes in bad situations. So they don't train this kid Armory, immediately place her in a bad situation mere hours after primary assessment and...what? Never once accounted for the fact that she's gonna make a big mistake? But...hello, big smart army science people, remember the part where she's untrained? I never suggested that these kids should never fight any real battles during their stay -- which I'd assume is reasonably lengthy and not just a week or a month or so -- but you're telling me that to place them all in a direct combat situation without any training whatsoever on the first day is smart now?

You kind of are forgetting they were in MID training session in that scene. They wanted to see the extent of their abilities, and just what they were capable of, and how well they could use them. What they don't know (for the most part, concerning that these guys probably don't have the readout on the specifics of their power past "turns into things" "shoots lasers from her arms" and the like), is how their powers actually work (resaid in the same line!). When Trauma said he needed someone down there, they just picked the one person who was already down there. It wasn't like, "Hey you, with all the power in your arm, I want you down there NOW!" It was basically, she was already down there, he requested someone, and **** got out of hand because they weren't quite aware just what was going on with their powers. They didn't know he related to inner fears, and they sure in the hell didn't know she was arachnophobic, so no, it isn't like gas and fire. Gas and fire shows intent. Their basics are "Transforms into things" and "Has weapon on left arm" and that's it. And basically, like someone else said, since the only person there is Gauntlet, the only two people who might have said, "Hey guys, maybe we should be asking why he needs someone down there first" are missing. And there was no reason beforehand to suspect this might ensue. It's irrational to think they should've known this would happen.

So no, I'm not going to say that they shouldn't be put into combat situations, I'm going to tell you they should be put under critical situations as posed IN the training simulation. Because they were TRAINING them right there. And it definitely seemed as if they were running courses well before hand, especially as we saw them doing physical courses.

They treat the kids like walking time bombs. So why are they surprised when one goes off? And on that note, four other trainees were just...what? Just standing in the exact same room with utterly no means of protection whatsoever? And apparently they weren't even remotely briefed on the abilities of their peers and what dangers they could present to each other? What if one of them had fire powers and another had gas powers?...which, lo and behold, was pretty much exactly what happened! Fire and gas mixed, and sht blew up. I thought the whole point was "safety first." The pro-regs made the biggest fuss in the world about proper procedure and regulation and training...and a kid gets his face blown off on the very first day of this great operation through a combination of stupid mistakes made by a variety of people, including those who were supposed to be implementing proper procedure and regulation and training in the first place. Yeah, hardly the shiny happy picture of law and order that was promised to the voting public, is it?

I hate it when I know the entire post before I reply. x.x I basically end up repeating myself unintentionally. Oh well, two posts inside this post before. You're kind of giving beyond incredible expectations on the people watching them, when in truth, it's not like that at all.

 

[Dread]

I also will add that in boot camp, both here and in real life, the point is to weed out the "bad seeds". That often means there will be manipulation, and hurt feelings, and *****ebag sarges. Especially in the Marines (often called "the cult that works"). By "bad seeds", that means the people who can't cut it under pressure, won't follow orders, are slaves to their emotions, or just are plain unlucky. So the point of this will be to make it tough. Even if even rookie heroes can apparently beat the likes of Rhino, Grey Gargoyle, Shocker, and Mr. Hyde.

MVP liked Cloud 9, and he died to save her. Hope the poor girl doesn't think she's jinxed.

I will be pissed if Justice, War Machine, and Yellowjacket ever find out what happened and are too cavalier about it.

 

[BrianWilly]

^I get that. But I'm questioning just how culpable Armory is for the incident at all. How has she "washed out" of this training program when she hasn't even been trained? Was she so much of a bad seed that the behavior couldn't have been trained out of her...y'know, like the program is supposed to be doing? Aren't they under the assumption that every recruit and trainee is a "bad seed" in a way, as per the dictates of the SHRA in the first place?

Here is the fact: a guy got his head shot off in the very first day. The very. First. Day. In probably what was one of the very first training sessions. More people could have died that day. And guess what? They were supposed to be watching for exactly this. This exact, precise situation of a young hero losing control of her dangerous powers and hurting or killing people is the exact thing that they were supposed to prevent. They, the pro-reg side and the government and SHIELD and every last person on-site, are the ones who promised that they would. They fought a war on the backing of this promise that they would be able to do it.

You wanna talk big about safety and security and proper protocol, then you better make dang sure that you're capable of delivering on safety and security and proper protocol. You wanna talk big about accountability and culpability for these mistakes, then here is the question: who made the mistake? "They didn't know how she would react." "They didn't know how his powers worked." "They didn't know this would happen." They didn't know? Well they're SUPPOSED TO KNOW! That's what they guaranteed; I'm not expecting anything from them that they didn't promise to deliver.

I absolutely agree: Dan Slott seems to have a much clearer and consistent idea of what the SHRA actually is than, well, most anyone else at Marvel does. So maybe what we're getting here is exactly how the SHRA would actually work.

 

[Darthphere]

I loved the first issue to be frank here. BrianWilly is Sally. But I gotta agree with Brian's stance here, it just seemed odd. But in the military, thats what happens when you kill someone during training excercises.

 

[BrianWilly]

I have a myspace account and everything.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

^I get that. But I'm questioning just how culpable Armory is for the incident at all. How has she "washed out" of this training program when she hasn't even been trained? Was she so much of a bad seed that the behavior couldn't have been trained out of her...y'know, like the program is supposed to be doing? Aren't they under the assumption that every recruit and trainee is a "bad seed" in a way, as per the dictates of the SHRA in the first place?

Here is the fact: a guy got his head shot off in the very first day. The very. First. Day. In probably what was one of the very first training sessions. More people could have died that day. And guess what? They were supposed to be watching for exactly this. This exact, precise situation of a young hero losing control of her dangerous powers and hurting or killing people is the exact thing that they were supposed to prevent. They, the pro-reg side and the government and SHIELD and every last person on-site, are the ones who promised that they would. They fought a war on the backing of this promise that they would be able to do it.

You wanna talk big about safety and security and proper protocol, then you better make dang sure that you're capable of delivering on safety and security and proper protocol. You wanna talk big about accountability and culpability for these mistakes, then here is the question: who made the mistake? "They didn't know how she would react." "They didn't know how his powers worked." "They didn't know this would happen." They didn't know? Well they're SUPPOSED TO KNOW! That's what they guaranteed; I'm not expecting anything from them that they didn't promise to deliver.

I absolutely agree: Dan Slott seems to have a much clearer and consistent idea of what the SHRA actually is than, well, most anyone else at Marvel does. So maybe what we're getting here is exactly how the SHRA would actually work.

It most likely WASN'T the first day, not even in true military training are they put into combat training the first day, they're given classes and lectures and reading materials. Second, Armory suffered from a phobia, which is an irrational fear which is basically just a problem waiting to happen for anybody. You can't simply train her to be free of it anymore than I can train you to blindly agree with Tony Stark forever and ever. Phobias take massive amounts of time and effort to overcome, usually in the years category.

And you continually are taking this out of context. It was a super simple training excercize gone wrong. This sort of stuff (believe it or not) happens in the real world with the real live military and normal everyday humans. You're putting extremely unnecessary and heavy irrational standards on this when it doesn't credit it at all. I mean, obviously you've never signed up for the military, but you SHOULD know one of the questions doesn't read, "List of fears", because they actually expect you to kind of not have any, and if you do have any irrational ones, they expect you to not join under personal responsibilities, and MOST of the time (EVERYBODY in the military knows this) the vast vast VAST majority of enlistees do NOT register negative things. THAT is what bootcamp is more or less for. Because guess what, there's a damn fine chance that the only detail he has is, "Transforms in due to fear of someone else." Or even MORE likely "Transforms into things people fear". Which makes it totally dependent that they must know what her list of fears is (which she most likely has lied in). And definitely in the service, you lie about something like this, you're gone.

But you're by far most definitely putting unbelievably high standards on them for a process which you probably don't understand.

I totally recommend looking up military processes concerning training excercizes and treatment of recruits and the recruitment process itself. Because you paint this in a light it most definitely does not deserve.

 

[BrianWilly]

They set those standards themselves. They fought a war and killed people for those standards.

I'm only holding them to their word. If they can't keep to those standards, then maybe they shouldn't have promised to do so in the first place.

Someone said on the last page "It's only been one day" and that's what gave me the impression that it was the first day. But I suppose he could have been talking about it only being their first day.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

If you're going to argue for hurt pride of a lost little conflict, and not see things for what they truly are, then I'm not going to bother.

 

[BrianWilly]

Oh yes, good point.

You claim that I'm holding them to impossible standards, except that they themselves set those standards. You yourself held them to those standards many times. And now they've failed to meet those standards. What are you trying to say...that they did meet their standards? That your faith in their standards remains unwavering? If we're going to talk about arguing in the name of pride, maybe we should be a bit more inclusive, hmm?

What exactly am I not understanding about the military process here? I expected them to not end up with a headless kid on the floor because another kid screwed up. Is that so strange? I don't think that's a particularly unreasonable expectation to have considering that the point of the Initiative is to have less headless kids on the floor due to kids screwing up. In this issue they utterly, completely failed in their primary purpose, and I don't see a single one of them taking any responsibility for it. It would at least be preferable if someone said "Oh sht, we really screwed up here." Instead, what we get is "wipe up that blood, no one talks about this you hear me?"

Please, tell me where I'm getting the wrong impression here. Preferably in a more succinct way than "You just don't get it."

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Oh yes, good point.

You claim that I'm holding them to impossible standards, except that they themselves set those standards. You yourself held them to those standards many times. And now they've failed to meet those standards. What are you trying to say...that they did meet their standards? If we're going to talk about arguing in the name of pride, maybe we should be a bit more inclusive, hmm?

What exactly am I not understanding about the military process here? I expected them to not end up with a headless kid on the floor because another kid screwed up. I don't think that's a particularly unreasonable expectation to have considering that the point of the Initiative is to have less headless kids on the floor due to kids screwing up. In this issue they utterly, completely failed in their primary purpose, and I don't see a single one of them taking any responsibility for it.

Please, tell me where I'm getting the wrong impression here. Preferably in a more succinct way than "You just don't get it."

Unfortunately, the answer IS "You just don't get it" because of the bias you're holding against them. Because if this were Cap's team on the other end, you'd cut them slack like I wouldn't believe.

While I agree nobody seemed to take responsibility, you're holding them to impossibly beyond superhuman standards.

So no, you do not get it. And if all you want is a bias built argument, you never will.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Though I did want to throw a special mention out there. This is the first time I've come up against I word I don't understand. "Succinct" isn't in my vocabulary, so I just took a guess that it meant something to the effect of "nicer" or something that alluded to explaining it better than. So if I misinterpreted it, I apologize.

 

[Varient]

..................
(thinking)
.................................
(Thinking sum more.)

I'll give it ten issues.

I have issue with:
1. Established heroes who have responsivly used their powers in public were treated like Noobs.

2. The death in the first Issue was unrealistic in that as Paranoid and heavyhanded as the government hjave exibited before,.. They wouldn't make the mistake of having a superpowered TEEN activate or be the catalist for another superpowered TEEN.

3. Grynch (chuckle) seemed almost Human for a change.

4.I was looking forward to the backstory of MVP,... I bet that all he was was a child who was exposed to a variation of the Super Soldier formula in vitro.

Too bad they "HAD" to kill him. (sigh - I'd already had thoughts of him and patriot becoming this generations Cage/Fist.)

5. Tired of the Goth. This team has two,... I'm tired of "self absorbed, Doom an Gloom, Nobody likes me cause I'm different" Marvel characters.
Yeah,... Mz Komono Regens faster than Wolverine,.... But I need more than yet another smart-mouthed teen age gurl who going to be a serious pain for twenty issues before some boy their takes an interest in her.

6.Guantlet? Meh. I don't like him, southpaw,.. or Stiltman. Bottomline - he's limited. Unless the thing produces full body force fields and stressor/pressor/tractor beam tech to support it's operation,.. I'm gonna have trouble suspending belief everytime he raises that hand to scratch.

7. Cloudnine = Squirrel Girl w/o the burning need to be a Super Hero. They need to define her more.

8. What?? The Govenment can't design a better Danger Room? C'MON!!!!!.

9. No inferrences if there is a power exchange system in place or at least a couple of egg-heads looking at powers and pairing off people who's powers cancel out. It just read ,............. meh. Decades of devices produced by scads of folk that inhibit or neutralize powers, and you see Nary a one in place.


10. Where are the Sentinals,.. how did they get past the town with it's hatred of Supers to make this camp?


10.

 

[Willowhugger]

Actually, I think its important to think it IS the very first day.

For me, the idea behind the Initiative is that while Tony Stark may have a very good idea about how to handle these trainees. The people that are currently in charge of the Initiative are certainly the least capable of being the ones to put it into affect.

Peter Gyrich is attempting to treat this as the breeding grounds for the United States army. It's a mini-draft an option for going home, but the option is to never use your superpowers under any circumstances...ever again. I think it's a little like Babylon Five and Psi-Core. I don't necessarily think that's EVIL but for someone like Cloud9 its definitely worth the signing on for a United States tour of duty.

Except, here's the problem. Peter Gyrich's military experience and Gauntlets are for dealing with conventional weapons and situations. There's a solid military doctrine in the United States of America for dealing with regular people and their armaments. That doesn't apply with all the weird sh** that an Avenger will encounter.

Let's face it, there'd be a lot more accidents on the battlefield if you had a top of the line soldier otherwise then confronted with a gigantic 19 foot tall spider. Charles Xavier knows how to handle this sort of stuff because he's a sympathetic and caring man that prepares for failure.

However, that goes against Gyrich and everyone's problems because its a civilian mindset than military. I think its fully possible to hate Peter Gyrich and Gauntlet as utterly the wrong people for the job (ditto Hank Pym because everything Hank Pym does turns to ashes) without being against the Initiative as an idea.

Edit: Btw, what the hell was the government thinking building this thing in Stamford? I assume the people outside were the justifiably p**** off citizenry whom now have more superheroes in their backyard than ever before.

Isn't this a bit like building an Anti-Terrorist training camp on the Oklahoma City Federal Building's ruins?

 

[Darthphere]

4.I was looking forward to the backstory of MVP,... I bet that all he was was a child who was exposed to a variation of the Super Soldier formula in vitro.

7. Cloudnine = Squirrel Girl w/o the burning need to be a Super Hero. They need to define her more.

Our generation Cage and Fist doesn't exist. Its not our generations, its a carry over a past generation.

Please, stop with the Squirrel Girl already.

 

[Darthphere]

Edit: Btw, what the hell was the government thinking building this thing in Stamford? I assume the people outside were the justifiably p**** off citizenry whom now have more superheroes in their backyard than ever before.

Isn't this a bit like building an Anti-Terrorist training camp on the Oklahoma City Federal Building's ruins?

It actually makes sense in a way. Just like people say we should build the WTC over again, exactly how it was so we can send a message to the terrorists.

 

[Willowhugger]

Squirrel Girl is sort of a symbol for superheroines who really shouldn't be but you love anyway.

She's a Silver Age heroine and should be left as such.

 

[Eros]

Squirrel Girl is sort of a symbol for superheroines who really shouldn't be but you love anyway.

She's a Silver Age heroine and should be left as such.

wasn't she created by steve ditko in the early 90s?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

2. The death in the first Issue was unrealistic in that as Paranoid and heavyhanded as the government hjave exibited before,.. They wouldn't make the mistake of having a superpowered TEEN activate or be the catalist for another superpowered TEEN.

Too bad they "HAD" to kill him. (sigh - I'd already had thoughts of him and patriot becoming this generations Cage/Fist.)

7. Cloudnine = Squirrel Girl w/o the burning need to be a Super Hero. They need to define her more.

8. What?? The Govenment can't design a better Danger Room? C'MON!!!!!.

9. No inferrences if there is a power exchange system in place or at least a couple of egg-heads looking at powers and pairing off people who's powers cancel out. It just read ,............. meh. Decades of devices produced by scads of folk that inhibit or neutralize powers, and you see Nary a one in place.


10. Where are the Sentinals,.. how did they get past the town with it's hatred of Supers to make this camp?

I wish MVP stayed alive too.
Cloud 9 rocks.
We haven't seen what their "Danger Room" can do.
Most pairs are most likely paired off randomly by some joining number much like a real military. They're there for training, not for teaming up permanantly.
Why use Sentinel's when the entire base is staffed with Registered and licensed superhero's? Though I'm sure there's a few precautions lying about. We haven't seen the entire base, after all.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, I think its important to think it IS the very first day.

For me, the idea behind the Initiative is that while Tony Stark may have a very good idea about how to handle these trainees. The people that are currently in charge of the Initiative are certainly the least capable of being the ones to put it into affect.

Peter Gyrich is attempting to treat this as the breeding grounds for the United States army. It's a mini-draft an option for going home, but the option is to never use your superpowers under any circumstances...ever again. I think it's a little like Babylon Five and Psi-Core. I don't necessarily think that's EVIL but for someone like Cloud9 its definitely worth the signing on for a United States tour of duty.

Except, here's the problem. Peter Gyrich's military experience and Gauntlets are for dealing with conventional weapons and situations. There's a solid military doctrine in the United States of America for dealing with regular people and their armaments. That doesn't apply with all the weird sh** that an Avenger will encounter.

Let's face it, there'd be a lot more accidents on the battlefield if you had a top of the line soldier otherwise then confronted with a gigantic 19 foot tall spider. Charles Xavier knows how to handle this sort of stuff because he's a sympathetic and caring man that prepares for failure.

However, that goes against Gyrich and everyone's problems because its a civilian mindset than military. I think its fully possible to hate Peter Gyrich and Gauntlet as utterly the wrong people for the job (ditto Hank Pym because everything Hank Pym does turns to ashes) without being against the Initiative as an idea.

Edit: Btw, what the hell was the government thinking building this thing in Stamford? I assume the people outside were the justifiably p**** off citizenry whom now have more superheroes in their backyard than ever before.

Isn't this a bit like building an Anti-Terrorist training camp on the Oklahoma City Federal Building's ruins?

While I think you picked a bad metaphor, I can agree with what you say.

They're pissed at Superhero's, so them superheros are moving in.

A better metaphor would be America building a base flat in the middle of Iraq after they're done with this little war of theirs.

 

[Willowhugger]

wasn't she created by steve ditko in the early 90s?

Yes, as an homage to innocent superheroics.