Avengers vs. X-Men: 2012 Event

[runawayboulder]

Scott was also pretty hurt about Beast leaving from what I remember. Scott's pretty much dedicated to his beliefs since M-day. He said all we all ever need to know at the end of Second Coming about having no regrets and willing to go to jail with a smile on his face if the Avengers come calling.

 

[Havok83]

Wow. So your reasoning is Beast's opinion doesn't matter because Scott's too much of a dick to care that his wrongheaded actions have completely alienated one of his oldest and best friends?

Beast's opinion doesnt matter bc he b--tches about the way Scott is and the way he has led but did NOTHING to offer up a solution to the problem. His way of dealing with it was running away. He thought the X-men were becoming too far removed from their original premise? Then why didnt he put his money where his mouth was and re-opened the school? Why did it have to take Wolverine to get that done? Instead he'd rather run around with SWORD and the Avengers. Theres nothing wrong with that but when he left he said he was wiping his hands free of Scott and the X-men, yet wouldnt leave him alone. Most people that leave the way he did actually, do just that....leave, but he keeps coming back for some reason.

Beast doesnt like Scott anymore? Fine, then **** and stay away. Why did he need to constantly come back for the sole purpose of whining? He lost alot of respect for me when he came in the middle of Second Coming and started complaining about Scott right in the middle of Nightcrawler's funeral. WTF? Does he have no respect for Kurt that this couldnt have waited another time? And he said nothing new....just more of the same animosity from when he left weeks earlier as if he didnt express his displeasure with Scott. Just a few months ago he showed up on Utopia to whine at Scott some more bc he doesnt like the man that he is and as usual he just left. His words were "I came back so I could leave all over again" I do not get that and it makes him come across is a sourpuss

So no I dont think Beast's opinion matters here and no I dont think Scott should lose any sleep trying to get him on his side. He isnt worth the effort. If all he is going to do is whine and b--ch at Scott yet again, then he can shut up and go run back to the Avengers bc no one wants to hear it. At this point, he's a broken record. Besides, he's not even needed. The X-club, consisting of Dr. Rao, Nemesis, Jeffries, Danger with help from Prodigy have effectively replaced him and have been doing an efficient job. Beast is no longer needed and his whining most definetly is not wanted

 

[moraldeficiency]

Probably because beast actually likes other mutants being his friend and whatnot and seeing scott is the price of that. I mean just cause you're divorced doesn't mean you don't see your ex all the time if you've got kids and chewing them out a bit when they're raising the kids wrong? That's part of what ex's do.

Wolverine starting the school before someone like beast would just be pure mandate. But wolverine and the x-men would sell better than beast and the x-men.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Beast not immediately turning around and starting the school back up is stupid, but it's stupidity brought on by the market. There's no real in-universe explanation for it; Beast and the X-Men just wouldn't sell, like MD said.

But that one little metafictional snag aside, Beast is in the right. Scott's leading the X-Men down an isolationist, paranoid path, which historically tend to lead to ruin. Beast saw the writing on the wall and jumped ship because, frankly, no one really challenges Scott's leadership anymore. He's "the leader." That's his function, and the rest of the mutants seem to just accept that and fall in line behind him. It makes as little sense as Beast not reopening the school when he left, and it's a situation that exists for roughly the same reason: sales concerns. Readers identify Cyclops as the leader of the X-Men, so he leads the X-Men.

My question, honestly, wouldn't be why does Beast keep showing up to b**** at Cyclops; it'd be why don't other people follow Beast's example and leave that a**hole if they're not happy with the direction he's taking them in? Granted, we finally saw that in Schism, but it took a hell of a long time for ostensibly intelligent people with free will to finally quit following a guy whose policies made them balk just because he was branded the leader of all mutantkind by some bald dude back when he was a teenager.

 

[Havok83]

Sorry but thats a BS reason. Everything the characters do is "mandated". One can turn it around and say Cyclops has been written as a *****e bc of editorial mandate. It is what it is. Who said Beast needed his own title called "Beast and the X-men"? Its not like they could have had that be the premise behind X-men v3 or created a new Amazing X-men, relaunch of Astonishing X-men, etc...

And Beast didnt have to start the school up again.While that may have been the best idea, its not the only idea. One of the big reasons he left was disapproval over the formation of X-force and the secrets that came with it. Um, why didnt he tell anyone about it? He knew about X-force, kept it to himself and just left. I get that he stopped trusting Scott, but there was no one within the ranks that he couldnt trust? He couldnt pull Storm or Bobby aside and tell them what was going up. Maybe bring them in to try and talk some sense into Scott or at least watch him. Beast literally just ran away and left thigns as is. If he was so vehemently opposed to the Scott's secrets and lies, why didnt he bring them to the forefront and let everyone deal with it head on? And its pretty ironic that the main reason he even left Scott was over X-force and Wolverine just told him that he not only reformed X-force but will continue to use X-force to take care of the school's threats as he sees fit and Beast shuts up and goes along with it. I dont see him throwing a hissy fit and refusing to be a part of the team.

My question, honestly, wouldn't be why does Beast keep showing up to b**** at Cyclops; it'd be why don't other people follow Beast's example and leave that a**hole if they're not happy with the direction he's taking them in? Granted, we finally saw that in Schism, but it took a hell of a long time for ostensibly intelligent people with free will to finally quit following a guy whose policies made them balk just because he was branded the leader of all mutantkind by some bald dude back when he was a teenager.

Bc Cyclops has been a great leader and most of the X-men have not been unhappy with the direction he's led them under. They had no reason to revolt. Most of the issues, we as fans have had with him is bc of the shady stuff he's doing behind the scenes (for example X-force), and most of that was not publicly known to most of the people following him. The lies and secrets are for the most part, still secrets. To this day, most people do not even know X-force ever existed as a secret killing squad. Only a few do. Storm was displeased with it following Second Coming but she was in no position to do anything as she was only part time X-man herself, jumping back and forth between her responsibilities and Wakanda and as a wife. She almost left in Regenesis, but Scott had to pretty much beg her to stay. Most of the people that left to go east, had no personal issue with Scott or his leadership. They just saw a different approach to train the younger generation and felt they would be put to better use in a school. That by and large was not about being fed up with Scott's policies

 

[Mad Ones]

Just labelling Cyclops as a *****e or an ******* is too reductive. He actually does have mutant and human interests as his top priorities. Uncanny X-men right now is about Cyclops and his team being true superheroes and saving the world, while communicating to the rest of the world that threats against mutants will have actual consequences, unlike before.

He does act like a jerk and is a little narrow minded sometimes. But he's always been like that. It's just his character. And he's saved mutants countless times since he took his new mentality.

Wolverine tells everyone he's still running X-force and they're all ok with it because he's Wolverine and thats what he does... I think there's more issues there than with Cyclops.

 

[Havok83]

Just labelling Cyclops as a *****e or an ******* is too reductive. He actually does have mutant and human interests as his top priorities. Uncanny X-men right now is about Cyclops and his team being true superheroes, while communicating to the rest of the world that threats against mutants will have actual consequences, unlike before.

He does act like a jerk and is a little narrow minded sometime. But he's always been like that. It's just his character. And he's saved mutants countless times since he took his new mentality.

Wolverine tells everyone he's still running X-force and they're all ok with it because he's Wolverine and thats what he does... I think there's more issues there than with Cyclops.

He hasnt even told eveyone. He told Kitty and Beast and thats it. Bobby deduced it himself the next day when obvious questions about Warren came about. In that regard, I dont see Logan as much different than Scott. Both have/had X-force as a secret and only told a select few the truth. The difference is Scott has changed and is trying to be a better person, yet gets no credit for that. Im sure alot of the kids and staff would be pretty pissed off to learn just how hypocritcal things are as they teach them not to kill yet the headmaster has several of the X-men killing on their missions

 

[moraldeficiency]

Just labelling Cyclops as a *****e or an ******* is too reductive. He actually does have mutant and human interests as his top priorities. Uncanny X-men right now is about Cyclops and his team being true superheroes and saving the world, while communicating to the rest of the world that threats against mutants will have actual consequences, unlike before.

He does act like a jerk and is a little narrow minded sometimes. But he's always been like that. It's just his character. And he's saved mutants countless times since he took his new mentality.

Wolverine tells everyone he's still running X-force and they're all ok with it because he's Wolverine and thats what he does... I think there's more issues there than with Cyclops.

You know why that works? Because scott actually used to be heroic, they type of person who lead by example. He was my favorite x-man. Wolverine has always been a killer. And he's slowly coming to the point where stabbing something isn't his first response. He was actually horrified that scott used a child to purposefully kill someone. That says a lot to how wolverine has grown and scott has diminished. But scott does still seem basically heroic minded and wolverine is still a killer.

With that consequences thing would the converse apply? Is it ok for humans to just kill mutants that have attacked them? Would a hit squad against magneto be ok in your eyes?

 

[Mad Ones]

Who said anything about killing? Wolverine is the one who still has a kill squad. If Magneto does something to harm innocent humans I'm sure Cyclops would be the first to deal with it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Who said anything about killing? Wolverine is the one who still has a kill squad. If Magneto does something to harm innocent humans I'm sure Cyclops would be the first to deal with it.

Yeah, cyke just uses kids to murder now.

You mean something else in addition to about a 40 year mission against humans resulting in the deaths of thousands? That stuff doesn't apply? I don't think cyke cares at this point if humans are hurt. By his rationale I figure 1000 humans equals one mutant. But we'll see how this event plays out but I think that'll be the basics of cyke's side.

 

[Mad Ones]

Cyclops lets the kids decide for themselves if they want to engage in violence and if they're on his side still than it's their choice.

Cyclops is just as guilty as Xavier for allowing Magneto to join. And there is no evidence that Cyclops doesn't care about humans.

 

[Havok83]

Cyclops lets the kids decide for themselves if they want to engage in violence and if they're on his side still than it's their choice.

Cyclops is just as guilty as Xavier for allowing Magneto to join. And there is no evidence that Cyclops doesn't care about humans.

yeah I dont get where that comes from. There is nothing even when he was at his worst which showed that Cyclops hates humans nor doesnt care if they are killed if they are hurt in the process of helping mutants. He's not teaching the kids to go out and attack or kill humans

 

[moraldeficiency]

Cyclops lets the kids decide for themselves if they want to engage in violence and if they're on his side still than it's their choice.

Cyclops is just as guilty as Xavier for allowing Magneto to join. And there is no evidence that Cyclops doesn't care about humans.

Kids shouldn't decide for themselves about violence because they're KIDS not full grown adults.

Yes, and both basically were cool with a war criminal. There is no evidence that he does either.

 

[Mad Ones]

There's plenty of evidence in Uncanny X-men....

 

[Havok83]

Kids shouldn't decide for themselves about violence because they're KIDS not full grown adults.

Unfortunately the world doesnt care about that

 

[moraldeficiency]

Unfortunately the world doesnt care about that

Actually they have non consent laws and such things for this exact situation. Along with things like child labor laws.

Point I guess is when wolverine is horrified by the way you're treating children and feels the need to take the moral high ground then you've really fallen as a person, leader and human being.

 

[Havok83]

Actually they have non consent laws and such things for this exact situation. Along with things like child labor laws.

Point I guess is when wolverine is horrified by the way you're treating children and feels the need to take the moral high ground then you've really fallen as a person, leader and human being.

non conesnt and child labor laws? This isnt real life. Its a comic and in the comic universe the world doesnt care that they are just children. Their enemies dont stop and say "I will not attack this person bc they are a child". A mutants a mutant. If they are going to get attacked, its going to happen regardless of how old they are. Is a kid supposed to not engage in violence in that case bc they arent an adult? Of course not. They are and should defend themselves and that most likely will involve violence. Very few of them have non-offensive powers and if someone is trying to kill them and/or their friends, they should make the decision to protect themselves. Its not logical or plausible to expect one not to. And yes even in the real world. Its called self defense

 

[THANOSRULES]

Sorry but thats a BS reason. Everything the characters do is "mandated". One can turn it around and say Cyclops has been written as a *****e bc of editorial mandate. It is what it is. Who said Beast needed his own title called "Beast and the X-men"? Its not like they could have had that be the premise behind X-men v3 or created a new Amazing X-men, relaunch of Astonishing X-men, etc...

And Beast didnt have to start the school up again.While that may have been the best idea, its not the only idea. One of the big reasons he left was disapproval over the formation of X-force and the secrets that came with it. Um, why didnt he tell anyone about it? He knew about X-force, kept it to himself and just left. I get that he stopped trusting Scott, but there was no one within the ranks that he couldnt trust? He couldnt pull Storm or Bobby aside and tell them what was going up. Maybe bring them in to try and talk some sense into Scott or at least watch him. Beast literally just ran away and left thigns as is. If he was so vehemently opposed to the Scott's secrets and lies, why didnt he bring them to the forefront and let everyone deal with it head on? And its pretty ironic that the main reason he even left Scott was over X-force and Wolverine just told him that he not only reformed X-force but will continue to use X-force to take care of the school's threats as he sees fit and Beast shuts up and goes along with it. I dont see him throwing a hissy fit and refusing to be a part of the team.

Bc Cyclops has been a great leader and most of the X-men have not been unhappy with the direction he's led them under. They had no reason to revolt. Most of the issues, we as fans have had with him is bc of the shady stuff he's doing behind the scenes (for example X-force), and most of that was not publicly known to most of the people following him. The lies and secrets are for the most part, still secrets. To this day, most people do not even know X-force ever existed as a secret killing squad. Only a few do. Storm was displeased with it following Second Coming but she was in no position to do anything as she was only part time X-man herself, jumping back and forth between her responsibilities and Wakanda and as a wife. She almost left in Regenesis, but Scott had to pretty much beg her to stay. Most of the people that left to go east, had no personal issue with Scott or his leadership. They just saw a different approach to train the younger generation and felt they would be put to better use in a school. That by and large was not about being fed up with Scott's policies

man, i really agree with you here.

 

[BillPardy]

Its great how these characters have evolved isn't it? lol

 

[moraldeficiency]

non conesnt and child labor laws? This isnt real life. Its a comic and in the comic universe the world doesnt care that they are just children. Their enemies dont stop and say "I will not attack this person bc they are a child". A mutants a mutant. If they are going to get attacked, its going to happen regardless of how old they are. Is a kid supposed to not engage in violence in that case bc they arent an adult? Of course not. They are and should defend themselves and that most likely will involve violence. Very few of them have non-offensive powers and if someone is trying to kill them and/or their friends, they should make the decision to protect themselves. Its not logical or plausible to expect one not to. And yes even in the real world. Its called self defense

Agreed, but I always thought a comic hero should behave best and more morally than some real life politicians.

Heroes are supposed to be more moral than their enemies. You're saying scott should just go with the LCD and that's acceptable? If that's the case he's not a hero.

A kid shouldn't be taken aside and told to use their unique gift to actively murder someone by someone that's supposed to be helping raise them? A kid shouldn't think they're evil and their gift makes them a monster and have to be taken aside by wolverine and taked down from some very dark stuff. Oya's powers could save hundreds of thousands but so far she's only been taught to kill with them, reinforcing her belief that she'll go to hell (which by most religions she will now that cyke had her kill a bunch of people).

There's a big difference between defending yourself and being used as a sniper rifle by someone else, I don't think you see that. There is little difference between cyclops use of children and african dictators using boy soldiers to keep people in line and protect their people, it's a bad company to be in and there's nothing moral in his actions let along vaguely heroic.

 

[Havok83]

Agreed, but I always thought a comic hero should behave best and more morally than some real life politicians.

Heroes are supposed to be more moral than their enemies. You're saying scott should just go with the LCD and that's acceptable? If that's the case he's not a hero.

A kid shouldn't be taken aside and told to use their unique gift to actively murder someone by someone that's supposed to be helping raise them? A kid shouldn't think they're evil and their gift makes them a monster and have to be taken aside by wolverine and taked down from some very dark stuff. Oya's powers could save hundreds of thousands but so far she's only been taught to kill with them, reinforcing her belief that she'll go to hell (which by most religions she will now that cyke had her kill a bunch of people).

There's a big difference between defending yourself and being used as a sniper rifle by someone else, I don't think you see that. There is little difference between cyclops use of children and african dictators using boy soldiers to keep people in line and protect their people, it's a bad company to be in and there's nothing moral in his actions let along vaguely heroic.

What do you mean by LCD?

when and where has any child been told to murder by Cyclops? You keep coming up with these non-truths but dont povide anything to back it up. Do you have an issue number or scan? The closest I can even come to think of is X-23 on X-force, but she was a killer long before he ever met her and he disbanded and ended that over a year ago

Where was Idie taught to kill? Idie DID save hundreds of lives with her power in Schism. She killed several hellfire club goons but in the process she saved several hundred human lives. It wasnt a black and white situation. Had she done nothing, all those people could have potentially died. Would that have been better? Scott never told her to kill. He told her to do what she felt she had to. It was ambigious but its a far cry from the murder prompt you think it was. It was a quick judgement call and after seeing all the senior X-men taken out, she was truly alone in that moment

Again the only "kid" that was killing under his watch was X-23. He doesnt use them as snipers. What do you qualify as the age of consent, 18? If thats the case, then there arent many kids on Utopia. Pixie was the youngest of the New X-men and she was established as being of legal age early into the Brubaker/Fraction run. The only minors are the Gen Hope kids and they are not official X-men nor does Cyclops have them utilized in that capacity.

Most of the New X-men dont even go out on missions and the vast majority of the time they are seen fighting is when they are attacked in and around Utopia/SF. That is self defense. The most utilized one's are Pixie (who is there mainly to serve as a bus) and the Cuckoos (who do most of their duties from Cerebra). After Second Coming, Scott placed Rogue to watch over and train them so most of their time was seen in Legacy and again they werent to fight and kill there. Did they end up doing some fighting? Well yeah. In Collission, a group of them went on a vacation to Mumbai for a weddinng and were attacked so they had to defend themselves. The next arc, Reconstruction had them fight Omega Sentinel, one of their own, after her programming went haywire. Then there was Age of X. The first official X-men mission in that book following Second Coming was Lost Legions and Rogue did not select a single one of the New X-men to accompany her squad. Ditto for the next arc, which had her rescuing the Space X-men. Armor was used in one arc of AXM, Monstrous, when the X-men helped accompany her to a funeral. They didnt go there as a mission but ended up getting attacked. Besides Pixie, we didnt see them fighting along side any of the Xmen in the UXM arcs except Fear Itself when the enemy came to SF. Rockslide was the only one shown to actual fight the Juggernaut. The rest mainly provided their powrs to Hope or helped the citizens. None of them were used in Xmen v3 except in First to Last when the threat came to their home on Utopia.

You may want to check out the breakdown Scott set up in Uncanny Xmen #1. None of the younger mutants are on an actual X-men squad except Hope and so far they've been good about keeping it that way

 

[JewishHobbit]

Nice research there

 

[Sebastos]

Havok tells it like it is.

 

[Spider-Nerd]

What do you mean by LCD?

when and where has any child been told to murder by Cyclops? You keep coming up with these non-truths but dont povide anything to back it up. Do you have an issue number or scan? The closest I can even come to think of is X-23 on X-force, but she was a killer long before he ever met her and he disbanded and ended that over a year ago

Where was Idie taught to kill? Idie DID save hundreds of lives with her power in Schism. She killed several hellfire club goons but in the process she saved several hundred human lives. It wasnt a black and white situation. Had she done nothing, all those people could have potentially died. Would that have been better? Scott never told her to kill. He told her to do what she felt she had to. It was ambigious but its a far cry from the murder prompt you think it was. It was a quick judgement call and after seeing all the senior X-men taken out, she was truly alone in that moment

Again the only "kid" that was killing under his watch was X-23. He doesnt use them as snipers. What do you qualify as the age of consent, 18? If thats the case, then there arent many kids on Utopia. Pixie was the youngest of the New X-men and she was established as being of legal age early into the Brubaker/Fraction run. The only minors are the Gen Hope kids and they are not official X-men nor does Cyclops have them utilized in that capacity.

Most of the New X-men dont even go out on missions and the vast majority of the time they are seen fighting is when they are attacked in and around Utopia/SF. That is self defense. The most utilized one's are Pixie (who is there mainly to serve as a bus) and the Cuckoos (who do most of their duties from Cerebra). After Second Coming, Scott placed Rogue to watch over and train them so most of their time was seen in Legacy and again they werent to fight and kill there. Did they end up doing some fighting? Well yeah. In Collission, a group of them went on a vacation to Mumbai for a weddinng and were attacked so they had to defend themselves. The next arc, Reconstruction had them fight Omega Sentinel, one of their own, after her programming went haywire. Then there was Age of X. The first official X-men mission in that book following Second Coming was Lost Legions and Rogue did not select a single one of the New X-men to accompany her squad. Ditto for the next arc, which had her rescuing the Space X-men. Armor was used in one arc of AXM, Monstrous, when the X-men helped accompany her to a funeral. They didnt go there as a mission but ended up getting attacked. Besides Pixie, we didnt see them fighting along side any of the Xmen in the UXM arcs except Fear Itself when the enemy came to SF. Rockslide was the only one shown to actual fight the Juggernaut. The rest mainly provided their powrs to Hope or helped the citizens. None of them were used in Xmen v3 except in First to Last when the threat came to their home on Utopia.

You may want to check out the breakdown Scott set up in Uncanny Xmen #1. None of the younger mutants are on an actual X-men squad except Hope and so far they've been good about keeping it that way

 

[runawayboulder]

I'm guessing LCD stands for least common denominator.....?