Batman Begins Batman is reckless and dumb? No.

[Leon the Professional]

I just felt like addressing 2 common complaints about the movie, which I disagree with. I’m open to being wrong about the following, but I think my defense makes some sense.

Batman drives recklessly with the Tumbler

If you rewatch the chase, you will see that:

(1) Batman drives over the cop car in the very beginning because it is blocking his exit out of the alley, so it is not unnecessary

(2) Batman first tries to simply evade the cops, driving defensively and not offensively, simply trying to lose them

(3) Since he's not losing them on the roads, he takes to the rooftops to try to lose them

(4) ONLY after he still fails to lose the cops by driving defensively, and he is nearing his route to the Batcave, before which he absolutely has to lose them so they don't follow him home, does he begin to drive offensively and use the Tumbler's weaponry to make the cop cars crash

In other words, Batman does not start out demolishing cop cars. He only resorts to it out of necessity towards the end.

In sum, I agree that the Tumbler escape/chase was unnecessarily destructive (and borderline silly w/ the rooftop driving), and it was written this way to keep the average viewer amused. However, Goyer and Nolan were careful to make the destructive nature of the chase justifiable, so that Batman is not just being reckless.

Batman should have made the antidote himself and taken it with him to Arkham

(1) Batman is not dumb.

Just because the movie does not reveal that Bruce trained himself in stuff like lab/forensic science, does not mean he didn't. They could very well address this in the sequels.

A lot of people complain that Fox has to educate him about chemistry. But rewatch the bedroom scene, when Bruce wakes up after being drugged by Scarecrow. He says to Alfred that he was poisoned by a "psychotropic hallucinogen, in aerosol form". Does that sound like the words of an ignorant man? He could have just said "some kind of fear gas".

Then he notices Fox, and his face makes this "oh ****" expression. Why? Because he has to conceal his true self from Fox. So after Fox explains the chemical basis of synthesizing the antidote, and Bruce says "Am I gonna understand any of that?" this is not because he doesn't. It's because he is pretending he doesn't. Notice, just before he says the line he glances at Alfred, as if an acknowledgment that he realizes he needs to keep up the ignorant playboy act.

(2) So why doesn't Bruce just make the antidote himself?

Even if he was a scientific genius like in the comics, and he did know how to synthesize more of the antidote by himself, would it have been the sensible way to spend his time? Batman is in the middle of trying to solve what is going on w/ Falcone, Scarecrow, and those drugs. Why should he waste invaluable hours in his Batcave making the antidote by himself, when Fox can do it just as easily, as well as faster because he is more experienced, has better lab resources, and has just finished synthesizing the antidote so the exact procedure is fresh in his mind? Bruce may very well know how to do it, but he hasn't had time to fill his Batcave with lab equipment and he's been too preoccupied being imprisoned in a Bhutanese jail and training with the League of Shadows to keep practicing his lab skills.

I'd compare Batman to a doctor. Doctors are taught how to do lab work, but they always order lab tests. They could do it by themselves if they have to but they never do because they have more important things to do. Similarly, if Batman is busy, he has more important things to do. I'd like to see Batman do some biochemistry and forensics stuff in his Batcave in the sequels, but under circumstances where he is not rushed for results, Fox is unavailable, or he needs to keep it secret even from Fox.

(3) Lastly, since he was still waiting for Fox to give him more of the antidote when he left for Arkham, he couldn't have taken a vile with him. How did he know it would be there when he got back with Rachel? Maybe Fox let him know (off screen) that he'd have it sent over by the evening. Is this all very convenient to lead to a Tumbler chase rushing Rachel to the Batcave? Yes, but the way it's written, it's not like Batman is too dumb to make and take the antidote with him.

 

[Beelze]

You forgot to mention that Bruce was unconscious for two days after his first contact with Scarecrow, so he couldn't have made the antidote. It was natural that Alfred contacted Lucius (and he did wait a whole day before doing it, so it wasn't like he was rushing to involve other people).

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah. I mean, Bruce couldn't make the antidote while he was passed out.

Of coruse, the Bat-God we sometimes get in the comics probably could though....lol.

Actually, the ONE thing that keeps pissing me off is when people say there weren't any detective aspects in the film.

There were. Watch the film again. There's detective stuff in there.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

Yeah. I mean, Bruce couldn't make the antidote while he was passed out.

Of coruse, the Bat-God we sometimes get in the comics probably could though....lol.

Actually, the ONE thing that keeps pissing me off is when people say there weren't any detective aspects in the film.

There were. Watch the film again. There's detective stuff in there.

Most of the dective stuff happens before he even gets the idea of becoming batman, like when he is on the floor sitting with his legs crossed with all the news papers and notepad and jugo de naranja.

 

[Leon the Professional]

That's good you guys brought up the lack of detective work complaint, which I also agree is false. I should've addressed that as well, but I'm too busy studying to do it now.

We should dedicate this thread to these complaints and link people who criticize BB for Batman's driving, not making antidote himself, not doing detective work, etc. I still see people making these complaints in The Dark Knight forum threads all the time, but then none of those people is disputing my defense in this thread now. Although I guess it's possible they just haven't noticed it yet.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Also, Batman driving recklessly is something he would do at this point in his career, when he's just starting, and is very intense about everything. Another thing, Batman is not a boy scout.

 

[Dope Nose]

Batman drives recklessly with the Tumbler

If you rewatch the chase, you will see that:

(1) Batman drives over the cop car in the very beginning because it is blocking his exit out of the alley, so it is not unnecessary

I disagree. just rewatched the scene and it looks like there's plenty of room for him to drive around the cop car. I had always assumed that he was trying to disable their engine so that they couldn't pursue him.

A lot of people complain that Fox has to educate him about chemistry. But rewatch the bedroom scene, when Bruce wakes up after being drugged by Scarecrow. He says to Alfred that he was poisoned by a "psychotropic hallucinogen, in aerosol form". Does that sound like the words of an ignorant man? He could have just said "some kind of fear gas".

hallucinogen and aerosol are pretty common words.

 

[Leon the Professional]

I disagree. just rewatched the scene and it looks like there's plenty of room for him to drive around the cop car. I had always assumed that he was trying to disable their engine so that they couldn't pursue him.



hallucinogen and aerosol are pretty common words.

Nowhere near as common as "fear" and "gas". And even you aren't going to suggest that "psychotropic" is common, are you?

As for him having room to drive around the cop car, I'll have to rewatch the scene.

 

[Dope Nose]

no, I wouldn't suggest that. of course he never actually says 'psychotropic' so it's sort of a moot point.

 

[Leon the Professional]

no, I wouldn't suggest that. of course he never actually says 'psychotropic' so it's sort of a moot point.

You're right, he doesn't say it in the bedroom scene. I apologize, I was working off of memory.

However, he does say it. Just to Gordon, not Alfred:

"Crane poisoned her with a psychotropic hallucinogen, a panic-inducing toxin."

I'm pretty sure this still counts, no?

 

[Comic Book Boy]

Try to disprove the plot hole with the microwave emitter and why Batman didn't just drive the Tumbler himself.

 

[Dope Nose]

or simply shut down power to the train since he had access to it through Wayne Tower.

 

[Leon the Professional]

Just because I disagree with certain criticisms about the movie doesn't mean I think it's flawless. No need to be jackasses about this thread.

Shutting down power to the train is a good point I never thought of.

Microwave emitter doesn't bother me too much, since the beam is focused and points straight down at the mains underground. It's still kind ascrewy, but you can imagine that they developed new microwave technology or something.

I can give you my own criticisms too. For example, the docks scene when Batman takes out Falcone's thugs is too brightly lit. It starts out great, with Batman pulling the screaming thug into darkness, but there's no more darkness after that. Goyer wrote a great description in his script, saying that as Batman shatters the lights with his batarangs "darkness advances" on the thugs. You never get a sense of that the way Nolan filmed it. It should have been disorientingly dark.

I can give you more criticisms, but that's not the point of this thread.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Most of the dective stuff happens before he even gets the idea of becoming batman, like when he is on the floor sitting with his legs crossed with all the news papers and notepad and jugo de naranja.

And?

It's still him beneath the mask, you know.

And, looking at it.....I think he does most of the detective work in the costume anyways. He followed the lead to narrows and interrogated Flass and eavesdropped on Crane in Arkham.

Also, Batman driving recklessly is something he would do at this point in his career, when he's just starting, and is very intense about everything. Another thing, Batman is not a boy scout.

For some reason, I think people still think he's a boy scout. Dunno why, Boy Scout Batman is no fun at all.

hallucinogen and aerosol are pretty common words.

Not to the everyday man. Those words convey that the character is atleast not an idiot.

I disagree. just rewatched the scene and it looks like there's plenty of room for him to drive around the cop car. I had always assumed that he was trying to disable their engine so that they couldn't pursue him.

Well, in all seriousness....those cops are ****ty drivers. Pffftt....I'd had run them all over, really.

Try to disprove the plot hole with the microwave emitter and why Batman didn't just drive the Tumbler himself.

What do you mean?

or simply shut down power to the train since he had access to it through Wayne Tower.

Oh yeah, that'd had been real fun all right. Have the finale end with the train just shutting down like that, and nothing happen.

The point was to have showdown with something on the line. With everything at stake.....it's storytelling. And it's a movie. Not a documentary......or maybe it is, I dunno anymore the way some people debate on these boards.

 

[Dope Nose]

The point was to have showdown with something on the line. With everything at stake.....it's storytelling. And it's a movie.

well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? that they're telling a story and therefore have control over the situation they place these characters in. at the very least they should have the characters' actions make sense.

re: your signature, what's a 'gansta'?

 

[El Payaso]

A gangster

 

[Dope Nose]

shouldn't it be 'gangsta' then?

 

[El Payaso]

Probably.

 

[The Kid]

Yawn, welcome to last year.

As I saw it, the whole reason people labeled his actions as dumb was because he could have avoided all the damage and potential deaths of gothams cops if he let Gordon take rachael and had alfred deliver the drugs to a specific address or whatever...

Just a last note to all the batman begins worshippers who watch begins every night and kiss their dvd before bedtime: the movie has its flaws. That's it. When I saw it, I enjoyed what I enjoyed in it, but to me it wasn't the holy grail of comic book movies that people online hyped it to be. That's probably the way it is for a lot of people who watched it. Just live with that fact, be glad it wasn't full of rubber nipples and butts, and hope for better in TDK.

thank you for your time and goodnight.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? that they're telling a story and therefore have control over the situation they place these characters in. at the very least they should have the characters' actions make sense.

And it did. Batman was trying to stop the train, but if he failed to do so Gordon would be the back upplan to make sure the train never made it across.

re: your signature, what's a 'gansta'?

On the streets, it's slang for badass. Of course, depends what streets your on....could literally mean a "G", as into some crazy ****. But, I usually use it as slang for a badass or cool.

shouldn't it be 'gangsta' then?

Cool thing about slang....you can subtract letters.

As I saw it, the whole reason people labeled his actions as dumb was because he could have avoided all the damage and potential deaths of gothams cops if he let Gordon take rachael and had alfred deliver the drugs to a specific address or whatever...

That probably would have been dumber.

He was wreckless. Yes. It's actually TOLD to us that he is, as if it wasn't obvious.

And he could have the drugs delivered. It'd had take a hell of alot of time to get that done. It's better, faster and smarter to just take her to the drugs than have her taken somewhere and have the butler drive the drugs to her.

Atleast....it seems so, lol.

Just a last note to all the batman begins worshippers who watch begins every night and kiss their dvd before bedtime: the movie has its flaws. That's it. When I saw it, I enjoyed what I enjoyed in it, but to me it wasn't the holy grail of comic book movies that people online hyped it to be. That's probably the way it is for a lot of people who watched it. Just live with that fact, be glad it wasn't full of rubber nipples and butts, and hope for better in TDK.

With what fact? That you didn't like it so much? That's actually pretty easy....

 

[Anita18]

I'd compare Batman to a doctor. Doctors are taught how to do lab work, but they always order lab tests.

I'd like to make one thing clear: most doctors don't know crap about how to do lab work. I work in a cancer research lab, and my boss said that when he was a postdoctoral fellow, a young MD joined his lab and even though he knew absolutely squat about how to do ANYTHING lab-related, he was being thrown oodles of money to do lab work with. (Boss therefore couldn't advise anyone to go to grad school, if you can be an MD and be paid 5x as much to do lab work you don't know how to do, but that's another point entirely.) This is why MD/PhD programs exist nowadays - so you can be a doctor AND know how to do lab work. I'd to think of Batman as being better than a doctor in that sense.

But I do agree that Bats just cannot do everything himself, which is why he recruits Alfred and Fox to help him along. His detective work was also mentioned offhandedly: Rachel referred to the "bat-character" giving them "drugs, prints, cargo manifests." Not to mention the photos of Falcone...

I'm a scientist and I bought the microwave emitter concept. They mentioned that they were focused and that was good enough for me. Lasers are focused electromagnetic waves, so why not? (You can even focus lasers enough to pull things with, believe it or not..)

The only reckless and over-the-top thing that bothered me regarding his driving was the seemingly unnecessary crash through the toll booth at the end. He had lost all of the cop cars by that time, and there didn't seem to be anyone in the booth to see him, so crashing through the gate would have sufficed...

 

[dude stannis]

While I agree with you for the most part Leon. I thought they could've come up with some less lethal ways to stop the cop cars. Some way to destroy the wheels maybe?

Also anita the microwave wasn't concentrated. t was spread, like a micorwave oven would. The heat starts in the middle and then moves outward in a 360 degree perimiter. Thus humans had to have dehydrated as well. But it's the sort of thing you can look past for a comic book movie.

 

[Anita18]

Also anita the microwave wasn't concentrated. t was spread, like a micorwave oven would. The heat starts in the middle and then moves outward in a 360 degree perimiter. Thus humans had to have dehydrated as well. But it's the sort of thing you can look past for a comic book movie.

Did they mention that part? All I remember was "focused microwaves" and I assumed that they'd be aimed at the water pipes. I'm no chemistry whiz so I don't even know if that's possible to do with microwaves but....whatever.

And it wouldn't be dehydrated, it would be more like, burst into steam, LOL.

 

[chosen1]

I just felt like addressing 2 common complaints about the movie, which I disagree with. I’m open to being wrong about the following, but I think my defense makes some sense.

Batman drives recklessly with the Tumbler

If you rewatch the chase, you will see that:

(1) Batman drives over the cop car in the very beginning because it is blocking his exit out of the alley, so it is not unnecessary

(2) Batman first tries to simply evade the cops, driving defensively and not offensively, simply trying to lose them

(3) Since he's not losing them on the roads, he takes to the rooftops to try to lose them

(4) ONLY after he still fails to lose the cops by driving defensively, and he is nearing his route to the Batcave, before which he absolutely has to lose them so they don't follow him home, does he begin to drive offensively and use the Tumbler's weaponry to make the cop cars crash

In other words, Batman does not start out demolishing cop cars. He only resorts to it out of necessity towards the end.

In sum, I agree that the Tumbler escape/chase was unnecessarily destructive (and borderline silly w/ the rooftop driving), and it was written this way to keep the average viewer amused. However, Goyer and Nolan were careful to make the destructive nature of the chase justifiable, so that Batman is not just being reckless.

Batman should have made the antidote himself and taken it with him to Arkham

(1) Batman is not dumb.

Just because the movie does not reveal that Bruce trained himself in stuff like lab/forensic science, does not mean he didn't. They could very well address this in the sequels.

A lot of people complain that Fox has to educate him about chemistry. But rewatch the bedroom scene, when Bruce wakes up after being drugged by Scarecrow. He says to Alfred that he was poisoned by a "psychotropic hallucinogen, in aerosol form". Does that sound like the words of an ignorant man? He could have just said "some kind of fear gas".

Then he notices Fox, and his face makes this "oh ****" expression. Why? Because he has to conceal his true self from Fox. So after Fox explains the chemical basis of synthesizing the antidote, and Bruce says "Am I gonna understand any of that?" this is not because he doesn't. It's because he is pretending he doesn't. Notice, just before he says the line he glances at Alfred, as if an acknowledgment that he realizes he needs to keep up the ignorant playboy act.

(2) So why doesn't Bruce just make the antidote himself?

Even if he was a scientific genius like in the comics, and he did know how to synthesize more of the antidote by himself, would it have been the sensible way to spend his time? Batman is in the middle of trying to solve what is going on w/ Falcone, Scarecrow, and those drugs. Why should he waste invaluable hours in his Batcave making the antidote by himself, when Fox can do it just as easily, as well as faster because he is more experienced, has better lab resources, and has just finished synthesizing the antidote so the exact procedure is fresh in his mind? Bruce may very well know how to do it, but he hasn't had time to fill his Batcave with lab equipment and he's been too preoccupied being imprisoned in a Bhutanese jail and training with the League of Shadows to keep practicing his lab skills.

I'd compare Batman to a doctor. Doctors are taught how to do lab work, but they always order lab tests. They could do it by themselves if they have to but they never do because they have more important things to do. Similarly, if Batman is busy, he has more important things to do. I'd like to see Batman do some biochemistry and forensics stuff in his Batcave in the sequels, but under circumstances where he is not rushed for results, Fox is unavailable, or he needs to keep it secret even from Fox.

(3) Lastly, since he was still waiting for Fox to give him more of the antidote when he left for Arkham, he couldn't have taken a vile with him. How did he know it would be there when he got back with Rachel? Maybe Fox let him know (off screen) that he'd have it sent over by the evening. Is this all very convenient to lead to a Tumbler chase rushing Rachel to the Batcave? Yes, but the way it's written, it's not like Batman is too dumb to make and take the antidote with him.

"We musnt judge too harshly, ... it was his first time.... and that is what our boy is doing he is refining his methods he is evolving." -- Hannibal Lecter

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

lol.....I love that quote.