BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Saint]

Well, I think if Knightfall/Quest/End is ever adapted it has to be dedicated--which is to say I don't think it can be compromised by other plot threads. Knightfall is a complex story on it's own, and one cannot cram to much into a film.

Furthermore, I think a Knightfall film--or, a series--has to focus on the main theme of Knightfall, which was Bruce Wayne versus Batman. Bane was able to break Batman because Bruce had become so obsessed with his self-imposed responsibilities (in this case, stopping arkham escapees) that he did not allow for rest. As he went from villain to villain, he became more exhausted, and by extension more desperate, unhinged, and violent. The Batman side of his personality is taking over.

When Jean Paul takes up the mantle, he is the embodiment of Batman--without humanity, without mercy. He is what Batman would be without Bruce Wayne. When Bruce returns, he isn't fighting Jean Paul--he's fighting his obsession. He's fighting the part of him that is unyeilding, uncompromising, and unloving--and that part of him has become reality in Jean Paul. Indeed, Jean Paul himself claims that if he isn't Batman, he is nothing--which was the road Bruce was going down in Knightfall. He was on the verge of becoming Batman and ONLY Batman, and under that circumstance the Batman we know can't exist. Instead, he would become the heartless murderer that Jean Paul was.

Knightfall/Quest/End very nicely illustrated the line Bruce always has to walk--he spends so much time pretending to be Batman, or pretending to be a playboy that he is in constant danger of losing his real self. That's what was happening in Knightfall--Bane crippling him, in reality, saved his sanity because he was FORCED to reconnect with his truer self. Sitting in a wheelchair, he couldn't pretend to be Batman, and to an extent he couldn't put on his public face very well either.

These are the themes a knightfall series of movies would need to touch on.

 

[The Sage]

Here's some brief summaries of some of the episode concepts I had for a Bruce Wayne TV series. I'll post an outline of the pilot later.

Pilot - Bruce Wayne comes to Paris, France looking for new skills that will aide his mission to protect Gotham City. Henri Ducard is fired from the Police force. After running into each other, Wayne and Ducard team up to catch the murderous Tally. Bruce persuades Ducard into teaching how to be a detective, and Henri decides to start his own Private Eye office.

Episode: The Private Eye office opens and takes on a case to track a series of murders; Ducard starts training Wayne on how to manhunt and interrogate; Bruce starts meeting neighbors, begins habit of training in his apartment as well as on the rooftop.

Episode: Alfred tells Bruce about operations in Wayne Enterprises, with Bruce feeding him ideas to speak to the board about; Ducard & Wayne start investigating two arson occurrences yet must contend with a police who attempt to stop them because they're not police.

Episode: Enter The Dragon - Bruce helps one of his neighbors by entering an illegal fighting tournament in the wareouse section of France to find the killer of her brother who had fought in the tournament; Bruce meets an intriguing martial artist name Richard who is in the tournament for his own personal reasons.

 

[Beelze]

Not once did I speak against Nolan's realistic take on the films.

Not once did I say you did. I was saying that, generally, people here are against high versimilitude, but are they saying that Batman hasn't been featured in a comic book issue or graphic novel where he might as well have been real? Those ought to be open for adaptation, too.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'm open to most kinds of re-invention of the Batman character and his world. There seems to be a good deal of members eschewing realism in these threads, and I'm disappointed to see that they are do not seem open to such interpretations of the source material. I don't think that comics (and which issues and graphic novals is one to base a work on for it to become the "best" adaptation?) represent the only medium allowed to make changes to these worlds, and so I have no beef with anyone choosing to make an adaptation that is more "down to earth". It's important though, is that there's no contrast so great that it breaks the suspension of disbelief. This is prevented either by clinging to verisimilitude (and no, it doesn't have to be out of "cowardice") or establishing coherency and self-consistency (which is what Saint is suggesting) in order to make the unreal a reality in itself.

Not once did I say you did. I was saying that, generally, people here are against high versimilitude, but are they saying that Batman hasn't been featured in a comic book issue or graphic novel where he might as well have been real? Those ought to be open for adaptation, too.

This is your absolute last warning. Your complaints in this thread are not welcome. They are off topic and deliberately made to start an argument, which makes it trolling. You have never once contributed to this thread in a way that the rules define as constructive, but you have repeatedly posted content that is prohibited, so that makes you a troll.

You are not allowed to argue against making films faithful to the comics on principle in this thread, period!

I gave you an opportunity to follow the rules, and you ignored it. Do not post here again. You know for a fact that this thread is not open to the kind of debate you're trying to have, which means you are only here to make trouble, which makes you a troll as far as this thread is concerned. This thread has mod clearance to exist in peace, and they don't take kindly to trolls. Don't bother arguing your case for how you somehow haven't flagrantly flaunted the rules and deliberately tried to start a the kind of debate that is clearly and strictly prohibited in the first post of this thread. Do not post here again, or you will be reported just as soon as I catch it.

 

[Herr Logan]

dude...this thread has rules. you're not following them.

I'm talking to bellze, byt the way.

My man.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

We don't call parts of classic superhero costumes "panties" in this thread. Period. We also don't argue against using faithful costumes in this thread. Read the rules, please.

I've already written extensively on why the Batman requires a rapelling harness to plausibly do what he does. A harness built into shorts is actually more practical for a man who needs to get in and out of costume in a hurry, so there's no reason why he shouldn't have a custom, Kevlar harness that protects his hip bones, genitals and works as a harness that attaches to his utility belt with keepers (the same way a cop's utility belt attaches to his trouser belt). In fact, this should have been introduced in the comics years ago, since every other piece of the costume has practical uses to go along with the stylization, except the shorts.

The gray doesn't necessarily need to be darker. It does need to be non-reflective in order to be faithful, however. If anything stands out in the dark in real life, it's the black, not the gray (this argument has been backed up earlier in the thread already, relating to urban camoflage), but no true fan would ever make the Batman's cape gray, because that's not accurate. The Batman's costume is deliberately designed to be non-reflective, which is why shiny rubber is a bad choice.

Okay, they're not panties...they're boy-shorts.

Seriously, look at it this way--say Batman's standing ahead of you. You have a gun, but you're undoubtedly scared s**tless. He folds his cape away from him--and now, you see this dark grey suit, and right where his wedding tackles are, is this big black spot. That "harness" is no longer just a harness--it's a TARGET. See where I'm going with this?

I get your harness idea, but I would just make it the same dark grey as the suit.

 

[Herr Logan]

Okay, they're not panties...they're boy-shorts.

Seriously, look at it this way--say Batman's standing ahead of you. You have a gun, but you're undoubtedly scared s**tless. He folds his cape away from him--and now, you see this dark grey suit, and right where his wedding tackles are, is this big black spot. That "harness" is no longer just a harness--it's a TARGET. See where I'm going with this?

I get your harness idea, but I would just make it the same dark grey as the suit.

Your point may have merit. I haven't seen a situation like that in real life, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the rules of the universe are what the filmmakers want them to be. If they don't want the average crook to be predisposed to aim for black shorts instinctively, then they won't. I also know that people in general aim for the chest and stomach, since that's more likely to connect, and the Batman not only has a bulletproof vest on, but he's fast and enough that he usually avoids being hit at all. The gunfire of scared, guilty criminals tends to be less than fully accurate. Also, the Batman's bodysuit is supposed to be non-reflective, and if it's dark enough, there shouldn't be much of a difference in color without very good lighting. The Batman usually tries to get criminals to shoot him in the cape, keeping his torso between shots somehow. Criminals think they've hit him, but he doesn't miss a beat, so between that illusion and his more obvious ability to avoid shots completely, he comes off as unstoppable.

The bottom line from before: you cannot argue against using trunks here or disparage them (yes, that includes using terms like "boy-shorts," smartass ), but you can state your own preference in a non-judgmental way. Okay?

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Your point may have merit. I haven't seen a situation like that in real life, so I wouldn't know. What I do know is that the rules of the universe are what the filmmakers want them to be. If they don't want the average crook to be predisposed to aim for black shorts instinctively, then they won't. I also know that people in general aim for the chest and stomach, since that's more likely to connect, and the Batman not only has a bulletproof vest on, but he's fast and enough that he usually avoids being hit at all. The gunfire of scared, guilty criminals tends to be less than fully accurate. Also, the Batman's bodysuit is supposed to be non-reflective, and if it's dark enough, there shouldn't be much of a difference in color without very good lighting. The Batman usually tries to get criminals to shoot him in the cape, keeping his torso between shots somehow. Criminals think they've hit him, but he doesn't miss a beat, so between that illusion and his more obvious ability to avoid shots completely, he comes off as unstoppable.

The bottom line from before: you cannot argue against using trunks here or disparage them (yes, that includes using terms like "boy-shorts," smartass ), but you can state your own preference in a non-judgmental way. Okay?

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My opinion: I want a great, faithfull Batman movie, and there is a list of things that are needed in order to do so. This is a numerical list that has the most important stuff at the very top. On that list, whether he's wearing undies, trunks, panties, whatever the hell you want to call them, is somewhere around the bottom, just a little bit above the Great White Shark.

 

[Herr Logan]

Beezle, this thread is not for discussing or even contemplating that movie adaptations should be allowed to deviate and take different routes with the source-material, if you think so please say so somewhere else and not here or in any other Haven. This is a place for discussing and divulging faithful ideas in order to create a faithful product; the rules state this as a given in the beggining post of this thread, please abide by them. I realise your tone wasn't hostile to us, and that you were merely stating something you feel, but you'd do well to read the rules posted by Herr in the first post and to discontinue if you have similar posts'a'coming like your last one. It is simply not up for debate in here, that is all.

Thanks for that.

I want to post something now to everyone who would take a care about how I would do a fourth movie in mine and Herr's imagintive Batman franchise:

Movie #4:

• Dick Grayson is kidnapped by shadowy forces while on his around-the-world sojourn; Batman intercepts a crime cartel in Gotham and rescues a wealthy young lady who he lets escape even though she shoots and kills one of her kidnappers out of self-defence; Ra’s meets Batman in the Cave and set out to discover Grayson and Talia who have both been kidnapped.
• Bruce and Ra’s travel the world, avoid and defeat several threats, in which Ra’s seemingly perishes and Batman locates Robin; In Gotham, Barbara Gordon is inspired to take on the persona of Batgirl takes on small skirmishes and crimes, aiding the GCPD; Batman rescues Robin but is confronted by Ra’s who explains that the kidnapping was set-up, and offers Batman position of heir, which Bruce refuses; Batman and Ra’s do battle with swords, with Batman emerging successor.
• Bruce and Grayson return to Gotham, and their relationship takes a turn for the worse; Grayson intercepts when the mysterious ‘Batgirl’ is threatened by serious trouble and discovers that it is Barbara Gordon, who he has been romantically involved with; Batman and Robin are called into action when a new villain, Bane, turns up on the scene, busting out Arkham inmates; Batman and Robin rush to clean up the city, taking on the freed inmates one-by-one; An exhausted Batman is met by Bane in the Bat cave and is defeated, and he’s back broken.
• Dick Grayson, Leslie Thompkins and Alfred help Bruce on his way to recovery; Grayson and Leslie test the remnants of the chemical ‘Venom’ left behind in the Cave by Bane, and discover it’s physical properties; Bane takes control of Gothams underworld, and is pursued by Robin and the GCPD; Batman begins to use concentrated dosages of ‘Venom’ in order to repair his body and outmatch Bane, much to the dismay of Leslie, Alfred and Dick.
• Ra’s Al Ghul returns back to the scene and reveals his plan to destroy Gotham with an earthquake; Batman takes the ‘Venom’ in his final act of recovery and teams up with Robin to stop Ra’s from being successful; Robin defeats Bane by disabling the influx of ‘Venom’ into his bloodstream, while Batgirl helps reduce the collateral damage beside the GCPD; Batman takes on Ra’s while under the influence of 'Venom', defeating him, and leaving him to an ambiguous demise.
• Grayson explains to Batman that he is leaving Gotham to pursue his own crime-fighting career in the neighbouring city, Bludhaven, as Nightwing; Barbara Gordon retired the mantle of Batgirl, realising the danger she put herself in…for now; The city of Gotham is saved, but is in part ruined by the beginnings of the Earthquake, and Batman vows to further protect and help rebuild the city and clean up the criminals and Arkham inmate still roaming free.

Thoughts? Contributions? Ideas?

Wow... and I thought our rendition of 'Year One' was gonna be crowded.

I'm not sure about throwing R'as Al Ghul, 'Knightfall,' Batgirl and the beginnings of 'Cataclysm' into one movie. I agree with Saint and really think Knightfall should be its own movie, if it's to be done at all. I hate Jean-Paul Valley, so I'm not crazy about adapting the storyline, but if you really want to, then it's fine. But yeah, it shouldn't be lumped in with other major villain plots. Bane isn't a second-stringer.

If we do a 'Knightfall' movie, I think Shondra Kinsolving should be in it, since I think it's important that we show that Bruce essentially became a less violent and more relaxed person after she used her psychic mojo on him, and he had to not just give that up but actively reverse it by training with Lady Shiva so he could get back in touch with his "mark of the bat"/violent soul and get back in the game. It's another tragedy in Bruce Wayne's life, since he, possibly for the first time in his life, truly chose to continue as Batman as opposed to simply following a compulsion). If he just wanted Jean-Paul stopped and that was the only thing he was after, he could have called in Superman... but that wouldn't be a Batman thing to do, and he was, despite his more peaceful instincts, all about doing things the Batman way..
Using Venom-- which is a disgusting thing to do and I'd prefer to avoid it-- would be unnecessary if Bruce got help from Kinsolving. Hey, I'm not a huge fan of her character, either, but I think it really could only take a psychic healer to suppress Bruce Wayne's violent spririt.

I also think that ending is pretty grim. I know five or more movies is a lot to expect from a franchise (then again, so is most of what we're describing, with the way Hollywood is now), but I figured the Batman and Robin should get at least two whole movies together before they part ways (Robin doesn't have to be a key player for the whole of his second movie). I don't want a repeat of BF and B&R where Robin becomes a "junior partner" (to use business terminology) and then has nothing but strife with the Batman after that.

Also, I'd expect a longer stretch of activity from Batgirl. Perhaps she could sort of take Robin's place after Grayson leaves?

I really appreciate you posting this, though. Please don't be discouraged by my comments, and we will speak of this some more. I'd like to discuss the earlier movies some point soon, too. Keep posting, and thanks again.

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My opinion: I want a great, faithfull Batman movie, and there is a list of things that are needed in order to do so. This is a numerical list that has the most important stuff at the very top. On that list, whether he's wearing undies, trunks, panties, whatever the hell you want to call them, is somewhere around the bottom, just a little bit above the Great White Shark.

Okay. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's some brief summaries of some of the episode concepts I had for a Bruce Wayne TV series. I'll post an outline of the pilot later.

Pilot - Bruce Wayne comes to Paris, France looking for new skills that will aide his mission to protect Gotham City. Henri Ducard is fired from the Police force. After running into each other, Wayne and Ducard team up to catch the murderous Tally. Bruce persuades Ducard into teaching how to be a detective, and Henri decides to start his own Private Eye office.

Episode: The Private Eye office opens and takes on a case to track a series of murders; Ducard starts training Wayne on how to manhunt and interrogate; Bruce starts meeting neighbors, begins habit of training in his apartment as well as on the rooftop.

Episode: Alfred tells Bruce about operations in Wayne Enterprises, with Bruce feeding him ideas to speak to the board about; Ducard & Wayne start investigating two arson occurrences yet must contend with a police who attempt to stop them because they're not police.

Episode: Enter The Dragon - Bruce helps one of his neighbors by entering an illegal fighting tournament in the wareouse section of France to find the killer of her brother who had fought in the tournament; Bruce meets an intriguing martial artist name Richard who is in the tournament for his own personal reasons.

Interesting stuff, Sage.

How long (as in how many episodes, etc.) would you have Bruce stay with Ducard on the show? Would he gradually get the sense that Ducard isn't a man to follow? Would you have subsequent episodes feature the other locations and mentors from 'The Man Who Falls'?

Thanks for posting.

 

[Zaphod]

Wow... and I thought our rendition of 'Year One' was gonna be crowded.

I dont think the fact that our 'Year One' is crowded is particularly a problem, or should I say, it doesn't have to be. 'Begins' had a great deal going on it, but it connected everything, often loosely (Falcone knew about Ra's, but did that go anywhere? Not really.) This is so the movie didnt feel like loads of mini-episodes thrown together, and so events unfolded from each other, the movie flowed nicely. Now the drawback with doing this is that by connecting plot points which are otherwise unrelated in order to make the movie more coherent, can also make the movie less faithful to the source material. However this doesnt have to be an issue either if the filmmakers and storytellers know their limits. You'll see where I'm going with this when I complete my 'Year One' post.

I'm not sure about throwing R'as Al Ghul, 'Knightfall,' Batgirl and the beginnings of 'Cataclysm' into one movie. I agree with Saint and really think Knightfall should be its own movie, if it's to be done at all. I hate Jean-Paul Valley, so I'm not crazy about adapting the storyline, but if you really want to, then it's fine. But yeah, it shouldn't be lumped in with other major villain plots. Bane isn't a second-stringer.

I forgot to mention in my initial outline that Bane would be motivated by Ra's and the League of Assasins to go to Gotham after being busted out of his prison, and take out the Batman, as a forewarning to Ra's second coming. So he's character and actions are linked with that of the Ra's plot; this is actually reasonably faithful, since it was in the 400th issue of the 'Batman' comic ('Ressurection Night') that Ra's returned to Gotham and released all of the Arkham inmates as a means of attacking Batman (the difference in that story being that he had them kidnap other people around Gotham linked to Batman, which we could see some of them doign anyway on their own accord, or include a hostage situation of some kind (?)). Also, I think it was in 'Legacy' that Ra's teamed himself with Bane, who he chose as heir second to Batman.

I was considering doing away with the addition of 'Venom' alltogether, if I was to follow up this idea for a fourth installment.

I also think that ending is pretty grim. I know five or more movies is a lot to expect from a franchise (then again, so is most of what we're describing, with the way Hollywood is now), but I figured the Batman and Robin should get at least two whole movies together before they part ways (Robin doesn't have to be a key player for the whole of his second movie). I don't want a repeat of BF and B&R where Robin becomes a "junior partner" (to use business terminology) and then has nothing but strife with the Batman after that.

The idea of the ending was that, with the departure of Grayson and Gotham now in bad-shape (echoing elements of 'No Man's Land', since I'd want to show in subsequent movies, which would build up the Batman Family over the course of the second franchise, how criminals are using the poverty, destruction and devastation to their advantage; certainly the Penguin would be doing this as was shown in 'No Man's Land') that a follow up franchise could begin afresh, without having to entirely reboot with yet another origin retelling, and could be both a 'restart' and a 'continuation' in many ways.

I was also considering the question of Robin's time spent beside Batman in the movies. If it should be two full movies before Grayson departs to become Nightwing, then this is something we should discuss.

Also, I'd expect a longer stretch of activity from Batgirl. Perhaps she could sort of take Robin's place after Grayson leaves?

I'm really sold on the idea of faithfully and imaginatively adapting Batgirl into a fourth movie, so she would be getting a great deal of screentime. I've jigged things about a bit in my head, and her first appearence would show Batman intervening when Barabra is attacked by two muggers at a train station; Barabra would show suprising resilence and skill in fending of the muggers, using mace (or a tazer) and an assortment of martial arts which she studied in College.

When Batman leaves with Ra's to pursue Robin's abduction, Batgirl would debut in Gotham as an eager, resourceful, intelligent, yet somewhat brash Batman-wannabe. Her costume wouldn't be expert tailored or refined as either Batman or Robin's, but would be her own design, so imagine a hastily fashioned costume resembling comic outfit (gold gloves, insignia and cape) and you can imagine what I'm going for.

Batgirl would originally tidy up minor crimes over Gotham, and get herself into several tangles while doing so, but nothing particular life threatening ro serious. I'd definately have her startle accross parts of the mystery which tie into Ra's plot in Gotham, and have them as ambiguous symbols until we know what's going on by the second half of the movie. By the time Batman and Robin meet her, they'd be suprised at how much actual discovey she's made of a potential threat to Gotham.

 

[The Sage]

Interesting stuff, Sage.

How long (as in how many episodes, etc.) would you have Bruce stay with Ducard on the show? Would he gradually get the sense that Ducard isn't a man to follow? Would you have subsequent episodes feature the other locations and mentors from 'The Man Who Falls'?

Thanks for posting.

Yes, actually. I was thinking maybe two seasons with Ducard, then maybe him moving on to someone else. Maybe some training up in the mountains among Kirigi, a bit Xena-esque.

To add, I was thinking of an arc called Mark of Cain, in which David Cain comes to France, hired for an assassination. Ducard knows him from their past together, and no one knows he's become an assassin. Bruce receives training from Cain, but is reluctant to kill and finds out what Cain does for a living. The maybe some other episodes that hint to the future, such as Venom-steroid experimentations, a terrorist movement by Qayin, who's working under Ra's Al Ghul but Ra's would never be shown.

 

[Herr Logan]

Yes, actually. I was thinking maybe two seasons with Ducard, then maybe him moving on to someone else. Maybe some training up in the mountains among Kirigi, a bit Xena-esque.

To add, I was thinking of an arc called Mark of Cain, in which David Cain comes to France, hired for an assassination. Ducard knows him from their past together, and no one knows he's become an assassin. Bruce receives training from Cain, but is reluctant to kill and finds out what Cain does for a living. The maybe some other episodes that hint to the future, such as Venom-steroid experimentations, a terrorist movement by Qayin, who's working under Ra's Al Ghul but Ra's would never be shown.

Personally, I'd give Bruce one season in Paris at the very most, with Bruce deciding to leave because of Ducard's appalling methods at the end. Again, that's just me.

The Cain and Qayin stuff sounds really interesting.

 

[Herr Logan]

I dont think the fact that our 'Year One' is crowded is particularly a problem, or should I say, it doesn't have to be. 'Begins' had a great deal going on it, but it connected everything, often loosely (Falcone knew about Ra's, but did that go anywhere? Not really.) This is so the movie didnt feel like loads of mini-episodes thrown together, and so events unfolded from each other, the movie flowed nicely. Now the drawback with doing this is that by connecting plot points which are otherwise unrelated in order to make the movie more coherent, can also make the movie less faithful to the source material. However this doesnt have to be an issue either if the filmmakers and storytellers know their limits. You'll see where I'm going with this when I complete my 'Year One' post.

I forgot to mention in my initial outline that Bane would be motivated by Ra's and the League of Assasins to go to Gotham after being busted out of his prison, and take out the Batman, as a forewarning to Ra's second coming. So he's character and actions are linked with that of the Ra's plot; this is actually reasonably faithful, since it was in the 400th issue of the 'Batman' comic ('Ressurection Night') that Ra's returned to Gotham and released all of the Arkham inmates as a means of attacking Batman (the difference in that story being that he had them kidnap other people around Gotham linked to Batman, which we could see some of them doign anyway on their own accord, or include a hostage situation of some kind (?)). Also, I think it was in 'Legacy' that Ra's teamed himself with Bane, who he chose as heir second to Batman.

I definitely think this would be a situation where the tying together of various storylines would be forced and would make it less faithful.

I would be fine with leaving R'as Al Ghul or Bane out of the whole series than have them squished together for no good reason. Bane wasn't an assassin to begin with, or a pawn of anyone else once he broke out. I think it's very important that it be known thay Bane was the brains of his own big venture, even if he relied heavily on intelligence and information gathered by others (simply because they had lived in Gotham before).

Bane and R'as are two major villains that shouldn't be pushed together in their first ventures out. I'd rather see Poison Ivy work for R'as than Bane, and even then, I'd have her as an independent villain who merely uses some resources that R'as throws her way because he wants to see what she'll do with her powers and expertise.

I was considering doing away with the addition of 'Venom' alltogether, if I was to follow up this idea for a fourth installment.

I can't stress it enough when I say "good."

The idea of the ending was that, with the departure of Grayson and Gotham now in bad-shape (echoing elements of 'No Man's Land', since I'd want to show in subsequent movies, which would build up the Batman Family over the course of the second franchise, how criminals are using the poverty, destruction and devastation to their advantage; certainly the Penguin would be doing this as was shown in 'No Man's Land') that a follow up franchise could begin afresh, without having to entirely reboot with yet another origin retelling, and could be both a 'restart' and a 'continuation' in many ways.

But isn't it a little too depressing to leave a franchise on such a crappy note? I don't give a damn what the next team does with their restart, but I wouldn't want to trash the storyline so badly that it needed a restart.

I was also considering the question of Robin's time spent beside Batman in the movies. If it should be two full movies before Grayson departs to become Nightwing, then this is something we should discuss.

I know I don't want to deal with Nightwing any time soon. I could deal with Batgirl in Movie 4, but having Robin leave that soon bothers me.

I'm really sold on the idea of faithfully and imaginatively adapting Batgirl into a fourth movie, so she would be getting a great deal of screentime. I've jigged things about a bit in my head, and her first appearence would show Batman intervening when Barabra is attacked by two muggers at a train station; Barabra would show suprising resilence and skill in fending of the muggers, using mace (or a tazer) and an assortment of martial arts which she studied in College.

Cool.

I was also thinking of her stumbling upon the Batman while he waited for Jim Gordon on the roof/balcony of his apartment building and sharing just a few words before the Batman leaves to come back later when Gordon is in.

When Batman leaves with Ra's to pursue Robin's abduction, Batgirl would debut in Gotham as an eager, resourceful, intelligent, yet somewhat brash Batman-wannabe. Her costume wouldn't be expert tailored or refined as either Batman or Robin's, but would be her own design, so imagine a hastily fashioned costume resembling comic outfit (gold gloves, insignia and cape) and you can imagine what I'm going for.

Batgirl would originally tidy up minor crimes over Gotham, and get herself into several tangles while doing so, but nothing particular life threatening ro serious. I'd definately have her startle accross parts of the mystery which tie into Ra's plot in Gotham, and have them as ambiguous symbols until we know what's going on by the second half of the movie. By the time Batman and Robin meet her, they'd be suprised at how much actual discovey she's made of a potential threat to Gotham.

Sounds good.


I think I'd like to focus more on the first three films for the time being.

 

[Herr Logan]

In my Batman Movie Video Game concept, I would feature the 'Monster Men' storyline, probably Matt Wagner's version. I guess I could deal with Bruce dating Julie Madison, as long as they broke up either by the end of the first game or in the beginning of the second one. Bruce would not date Jullie Madison in the movies-- at least not as a part of the actual plot. Originally, she was an actress (as opposed to a lawyer, like in Wagner's 'Monster Men', so I'm fine with a passing mention of it by the media.

As I've said, the video game series would follow the events of the movies, but would cover much more of the Batman's mythology and also feature typical crime cases to solve as well as special investigations that may tie into the main plots in some way. The games will feature some villains that don't appear in the games, and all of the ones that do. I may feature villains like Killer Croc, Victor Zsasz, Firefly and other minor villains that will appear in subsequent films just in the first game, also using them in the game corresponding to the movie(s) they appear in. I know I want the original Clayface-- the one without superpowers who just started killing the cast and crew of a remake of a horror film he starred in earlier-- in one of the games.

Again, the first game will feature several intricate "training missions" that take place in other countries. The free roam element will not be as prevalent in those (ex. you will not get to explore most of Paris in the segment in which Bruce is with Henri Ducard), since that would be asking too much, considering you would have access to every square foot of Gotham City (not the interiors of most buildings, though), a decent chunk of Gotham County, and a good bit of water surrounding the island of Gotham City. The training missions will reflect and expand a little on the events of the Bruce Wayne miniseries that runs alongside the movie 'Batman: Year One,' which covers his training from the comics with Kirigi, Ducard, Dogget, Cain, Zatarra, and other mentors.

Because a big chunk of the game already takes place outside of Gotham City, I don't think I would use the 'Vampire Monk' storyline. That requires an international trip, and I want the Batman to stay in Gotham once he returns for the first time after 12 years abroad.


I think I'd probably put subsequent incarnation(s) of Clayface-- as in with superpowers-- in later games. As I've said, I don't want a superpowered Clayface in the movies, since that kind of sci-fi character requires a lot of explanation and there's no room for that if the character doesn't tie into the main plot. Villains like Zsasz, Killer Croc and Firefly can just pop up wherever in a movie and be explained pretty quickly, but not Clayface.

The Man-Bat is also a character I'd put into the games but not a movie, for the exact same reasons. He, like Clayface, is not prestigious enough to warrant a main villain slot, but requires a lot of explanation and build-up.

I actually think now that Mr. Freeze is also a villain I might not put in a movie, whereas I always intended to before. As cool as he is (no pun intended) and would look onscreen, I don't know how to work him into a movie-level plot without either having him be completely separate or having him in an unecessary team-up with someone else. I would definitely have him in a video game one way or another, though. I'd also have the Batman hunt for him at least once or twice, detective style. Ah hell, maybe he'd be in a movie no matter what. I don't know for sure.

As I said much earlier, none of these exclusions from the movies have anything to do with them being "unrealistic." The supernatural/superhuman natures of such characters is a problem, though, only in that they take too much time to develop if they're minor villains.

Poison Ivy may well be a main villain in one of the movies, since she's the kind of villain who could threaten and destroy the whole city by her own means.
True, Mr. Freeze could, too, but I don't want to see another "freeze the city" plot in a movie, even though I know I'd write it better than they did in 'Batman & Robin.' That would eventually be his goal in the video game, after being foiled once or twice by the Batman in his smaller-scale personal vendettas and/or schemes, but I can do without that in a movie.
Anyway, back to Poison Ivy. I think there's even a potential for her to be connected with R'as Al Ghul, since he's also an eco-terrorist of sorts, though he doesn't value only vegetation.

I don't know if there's room enough in any movie to fully flesh out Harley Quinn's story, although I'd gladly have her working for the Joker if he broke out of Gotham and showed up in another movie. In a game, we could see the whole story unfold and then have her as a combatant.


I had an idea for a Penguin sub-plot for 'Year One' involving shipments and distribution of firearms built into umbrellas and canes to high-paying customers who aren't supposed to own firearms (ex. convicted felons), but there probably isn't room. The Penguin will still be in it, and there would be a major fight scene, but the detective plot for him probably might not fit in time allotted. Actually, I'm not sure at this point, now that the Batman's training years are mostly cut from the movie and would be in a spin-off miniseries. Anyway, there would be at least one major, long-running Penguin sub-plot in the game. He's also a good source of information, albeit inadvertently. As the Batman, you will use surveillance equipment, stealth tactics and possibly disguise and acting to collect information in and near at least one of the Penguin's establishments.

Yep, there's a pretty full docket for the first Batman game. For certain, there will be multiple training missions of different durations, pretty much the entirety of the Batman's role in Miller's 'Year One,' the Monster Men, at least two Penguin sub-plots, at least two or three major Scarecrow plots, and a bunch of street-level detective work.
Maybe I should go light on the extra minor villains for the first game, to save something for the subsequent games.


Thoughts?

 

[Herr Logan]

Any thoughts on that previous stuff?



I've also decided that the Batman will actually have a budget after all. Bruce Wayne has billions, so I'm not talking about big purchases done during the day. I'm talking about at night when the Batman is out and can't use a check or credit card.
He won't need money too often, but I know a couple of ways he might need it. He'll carry a few hundred dollars in varying bill sizes. He'll keep it in a concealed pocket in his trunks/harness, since he's going to lose his utility belt at one point and need money afterwards for an easier time getting home.


In the first game, there will be an emphasis on building street informants and using them several times throughout the game. Depending on your status with them, and their's with you, you will tempt/demand and reward them in different ways.

If a prospective informant is terrified of you, thinks you're a demon and you've maintained the mysterious, scary act that keeps him in that thrall, you should deal with him in that way once you've accepted him as an informant, demanding information in an ominous manner and then either vanishing or making another dramatic exit (dramatic exits and vanishes give you lots of "Dark points"). No need to pay him, if you think he's being honest about his fear.

If a prospective informant does not believe you're a demon but know's you're a badass who could put him down whenever you want, and especially if you've brought his legal record out as leverage, then you deal with him differently once you accept him as an informant. It's good to throw a little bit of money to these people after good tips. It keeps you a good investment in their eyes, rather than just pushing them around and making them tempted to betray you when the opportunity presents itself.

Also, narcotic fiends-- junkies-- will be fairly reliable if they know you'll pay them. Remember, that's narcotics, not stimulants/amphetamines. If a person is taking "uppers," you need to be very careful to keep them scared, but not completely panic them. They will be terrified of you pretty much no matter what. Never fully trust any kind of addict, but especially be careful around the ones on speed and such.

Yes, I want things to be this complex and this down and dirty in the game. I also think this game would indeed be rated "M," since I do want the freedom to have relatively grisly crime scenes, a decent amount of graphic violence and references thereto, and a lot of drug references. The cursing should be kept to a minimum, I think, because again, this is supposed to echo the tone of the comics of recent years, and they don't curse much in Batman comics. Also, I don't want outright nudity, but there should probably be strip clubs with strippers, but they should be wearing at least a skimpy top and a thong. I want this to be a dark and gritty world that shows somewhat realistic things in crime and poverty ridden streets, but yeah, without much cursing. The game would be unique in that way, and obviously for many, many other reasons, unless someone else came out with some of these new dynamics first.

There might possibly be other situations where you might you might need to bribe someone, but I can't think of any in particular, other than to pay informants and keep their loyalty. There might also be some special items you might need to take from a store at night-- something you haven't got in your belt or your car-- and you lose "Knight points" (your Knight rating deals with all the moral issues, among other things) if you don't leave money to cover the cost. I know, breaking and entering and taking things without asking is still illegal, but if no one gets hurt and you leave money in its place, that's apparently good enough for the Batman's code of ethics, so that's what you've got to do to gain Knight points (for Resourcefulness) and not lose them (for bad Morality).

One situation where you will definitely have the opportunity to take products from a closed store is right after the huge chase/fight with the cops. When Sgt. Branden drops a bomb on the condemned building you run into, the place starts collapsing and also being consumed with fire. The fire will get dangerously near thermite you have in your utility belt, and there's nothing you can do about it. It happens in an FMV, and the Batman will discard the belt before it explodes. This is exactly what happened in Miller's 'Year One', and he still had enough money for a nice suit afterwards. After fighting and evading cops and possibly saving that cat (which will win you a hell of a lot of Knight points and open up some secret at the end of the game), the Batman summons hundreds of bats to cover his escape with his hyper-sonic emmitter. He'll have to turn it off as soon as he's leaving the building, though, or people will know where he's going. At this point, you can either take your chances trying to get back home in your costume, without a car (which is crazy, since the cops are looking for you with cars and choppers, and they'll also start going into closed buildings in a wide radius of the burning building after a little while, so you can't hide there for too long), since your Batmobile is in police custody and/or unusable and the explosions at the building will knock out telephone wires, disabling phones for a couple blocks in each direction and making it almost impossible to call Alfred for a ride without being en route to a working phone, or you can break into the nearby clothing store (preferably using the extra lockpick you keep in your gauntlet, which will earn you a few Knight points for Resourcefulness), grab a suit (and maybe a bag, for the cape) and walk away inconspicuously until you reach a public phone.

How does that sound? Detailed, ain't it? God, it would be such a cool game to play...

 

[Bathead]

I know nothing about programming games, but, do actually think you would be able to fit all this content in a game? This post and your other game idea posts have a lot of excellent ideas, but, there's an awful lot of complicated gameplay there that I'm not sure is possible even in a high-end PC game. Not trying to burst your bubble, just wondering.

 

[Saint]

The low-end production values of pretty much every comic book game are disturbing. Most companies seem to put their comic games on autopilot, rather than trying to push the envelope like they do with their "real" games. This means mediocre graphics, writing, voice acting, and especially boring, standard, and uninventive gameplay.

It is a symptom of the same problem that plagues comic book movies--they aren't considered "real" movies. They're "comic book movies." You rarely see directors try to make something special out of it, only something adequate. In other words, the really special efforts are always saved for games and movies that aren't based on comics.

A disturbing mentality that needs to change. Batman Begins is a good example; Nolan set out to make a real movie and the film was better for it. Other directors need to get over the notion that comics are an inferior medium (see: Joel Schumacher).

 

[Bathead]

Hear, hear, well put. The problem is, comics are still thought of as kiddy-fare, even though that's not always the case anymore. I'm generally hopeful, though, the past few years have been generally been kind to comic book properties. The quality of such TV shows, cartoons, movies, the comics themselves (and even the toys) is a huge improvement over what was available when I was a kid. There is still a ways to go yet.

 

[Herr Logan]

I know nothing about programming games, but, do actually think you would be able to fit all this content in a game? This post and your other game idea posts have a lot of excellent ideas, but, there's an awful lot of complicated gameplay there that I'm not sure is possible even in a high-end PC game. Not trying to burst your bubble, just wondering.

In the future-- and I don't even mean that many years from now-- the possibilities are endless. Hell, I was completely taken aback when I first played 'The Sims,' and even moreso, 'The Sims 2'; the level of detail and complexity of the AI is amazing. My Batman game wouldn't reflect that kind of game too much-- except for maintaining Batman's few physical and mental needs that are discussed in the comics (food, sleep, energy, stress) and the Disguise and Makeup function should work very much like the Sim-building function-- but that's an example of a game I never thought could happen.

I would never go so far as to give the player all of Gotham City and all of Paris (in which the player performs a full manhunting mission). I also don't expect all buildings to have interiors, but I want there to be a good explanation for why he can't enter: the Batman doesn't need or want to enter. I absolutely hate it when they have characters with the ability to either knock down walls or pick any lock, but they somehow can't without any acknowledgement of it. Whenever the player tries to get the Batman to enter a building he's got no reason to enter (which is most of them, again because of limitations), he'll say to himself that he's got no business there, and if the player is trying to enter from the front, the Batman will say he should get off the street and out of plain sight, most times.
The Batman can kick in most doors and can get around any lock, one way or another. I would have all regular doors (that aren't heavy duty or shielded by a roll-down gate) breakable, but the Batman won't kick a door down unless he has enough of his own requirement for "reasonable suspicion."

Another deliberate limitation I want to put there is on driving. While it's a cheat, plain and simple, I want the computer to help the player drive the Batmobile. As much as one might like complete freedom with the Batmobile, the Batman simply does not drive around like a maniac, running over pedestrians and objects in the street and sidewalks. While I thought the driving sequences in the 'Batman Begins' game were pointless and idiotic, they gave me an idea. Those sequences had "walls" that kept you on a track instead of getting caught on buildings that jutted out, etc. Maybe there would be something like that, in line with the sidewalksand other boundaries that make sense. You could still smash up other cars on the street and run over people crossing or fleeing, and you'll pay dearly for that, either with big Knight points penalty for non-lethal destruction (if it was avoidable) or with having to restart from a save point or a checkpoint if you kill someone or might have killed someone. If you lose a certain amount of any kind of points in a short amount of time (basically, occuring in the same incident) but could still carry on with the game (there's certain things that are simply not allowed, like killing and having your secret ID discovered), you'll be given the option to restart from a checkpoint or save point, and you can waive it if you want.

The game will "cheat" for the player in any circumstance where the Batman must perform a classic, characteristic or "realistically" appropriate action that he is very skilled in but the player probably can't master easily. Driving in the city has too much room for disaster, but the Batman is an extremely good driver, thus the computer must remove a certain amount of error. That will definitely make it clear that this isn't a typical "driving game." There will no superfluous driving chores, although there will be a fair amount of driving. There will more in the first game than in subsequent games, because in the second movie, the Batman has a new Batmobile that can drive itself to your location and also drive you home when you're wounded.
I've got a batarang throwing system in mind that will be part manual instead of fully automatic. The game for 'Blade 2' had a glaive that went in an automatic arc and took off the heads of every vampire in that arc and then return to you. It could work similar to that (not with the decapitation), knocking every weapon out of people's hands in a reasonably realistic arc. The manual part is that you have to point the reticle (which will appear in Batarang mode, Shuriken mode, Grapnel mode, Bola mode, etc., which all occur in Bat-sense Mode-- a super-slow motion mode that simulates what it's like to be the Batman, thinking faster than everyone else and performing well-coordinated acts most people can't in the heat of the moment) at a certain zone, probably several feet to the right of the first intended target. The computer will have this zone thinly outlined or slightly shaded so you can see it in Batarang mode.
The Shuriken, Grapnel mode and Bola mode are mostly all the same. With shuriken, you basically hit what you aim for, unless it's too far away to accurately hit. The Grapnel either hits what you aim for with a drill-dart connected to a cable, or it wraps a more traditional grappling hook around an object that the computer deems more suitable than the darts. The bola goes where you throw it, but archs downward much faster than anything else, so you have to aim higher to various degrees, and also fire ahead when your target is running.

Anything an average person can't direct the Batman to do with at least a 70% of success has to be aided by the computer. That's part of being the Batman-- you get his talent and expertise (the expertise being the extensive tutorial notes you'll have to read for the extensive list of skills the Batman has to perform throughout the game).

Complex? Yeah, but one day, this can be done. Don't know if it will, though.

 

[Herr Logan]

The low-end production values of pretty much every comic book game are disturbing. Most companies seem to put their comic games on autopilot, rather than trying to push the envelope like they do with their "real" games. This means mediocre graphics, writing, voice acting, and especially boring, standard, and uninventive gameplay.

Aiming for a fully immersive and "realistic" (to the source material and to criminology) Batman game, they could revolutionize several types of games (stealth, free-roam crime, investigative, general superheroing, etc.). As long as the focus is on the comics world instead of the movie world, they can emulate the myriad of talented storytellers of the Batman mythos, most notably in that they succeeded in telling interesting and entertaining stories.

It is a symptom of the same problem that plagues comic book movies--they aren't considered "real" movies. They're "comic book movies." You rarely see directors try to make something special out of it, only something adequate. In other words, the really special efforts are always saved for games and movies that aren't based on comics.

A disturbing mentality that needs to change. Batman Begins is a good example; Nolan set out to make a real movie and the film was better for it. Other directors need to get over the notion that comics are an inferior medium (see: Joel Schumacher).

By the same token, these people need to be careful that they don't eliminate the comic book-based nature of the story. That seems to be what the trend is, and it sucks. As Bathead said, "Any talented filmmaker worth his salt would be able to stick close to the source material and still make an excellent film." There can be a movie that is a good film and faithful to the comics. What people need to get through their misbegotten heads is that this is an adaptation, which means it needs to bring certain recognizably comic-based traits into the movies. There's no shame in it, and it's the only way to make a truly believable superhero movie. You can't portray a fantastical character accurately if it's actually supposed to take place in the real world. 'Batman Begins' is not an exception to this. The things I've described as "unrealistic" in that movie are straight out of a story about a costumed hero written by someone who wasn't educated about the topics used in that story. Stan Lee is a perfect example of that. He knew barely anything about science, which is why "gamma rays" created the Hulk and Dr. Octopus was standing behind a glass shield in open air working with nuclear material. That's no more juvenile and ignorant than Carmine Falcone being caught at a crime scene or that ridiculous microwave emmitter. This is not the only way they could have deviated from "reality" and made a successful movie, obvious, and it's unfortunate that they did it out of ignorance than out of style and respect for the source material.

When these filmmakers and their blindly faithful, mindless apologists insist on a movie that's radically different from the comics just for its own sake, it's like a reaction formation, which is a psychological term for a defense mechanism that causes a person to basically swing to the opposite extreme for a trait they don't like about themselves. They're ashamed of the comics, so they try to eliminate their content from the movies where possible. Yes, I know 'Begins' left a lot in, and more than most other such movies, but this "realism" crap, which is brought up by Nolan himself, not just the apologists, has gone too far. They always use that as an excuse for doing things the easy way or what they perceive as the safe way. Movie!Spider-Man doesn't have real web-shooters because they couldn't get the props right, not because they're "unrealistic." Movie!Batman is wearing a full-body inner tube because it's seen as safer than lightweight tights for the franchise, not because it's more "realistic."

They think that the only way to get superhero movies out of "kid stuff" status is to reject its source material, and that's pathetic. Maybe if they just worked harder at emphasizing the "realistic" or "mature" elements and themes that were there to begin with, they might get it right. As it is, nobody with a mind of their own is ever going to see a Batman story as a straightforward drama. Ever. Nor should they. It's a sci-fi/action/crime drama, period. Nobody can argue otherwise and be valid, especially with 'Batman Begins'. The funny thing is, they did a pretty crappy job with all three of those elements to varying degrees. They have no idea how crime works, they have no idea how microwaves and hot steam work, and the fight scenes were badly edited. Somehow, in spite of all that, it turned out to be a pretty entertaining movie, but I'll never give credibility to the glaring pot holes (or whatever you'd call it) that were rampant in that movie.

 

[Cobblepot]

Regarding the Knightfall discussion.

Knightfall could work perfectly as an Animated Trilogy. There's no need for introductions. Except for Bane and Jean Paul offcourse. If they can adapt Superman vs. Doomsday and The New Frontier, they can easily adapt Knightfall aswell.

 

[Herr Logan]

Regarding the Knightfall discussion.

Knightfall could work perfectly as an Animated Trilogy. There's no need for introductions. Except for Bane and Jean Paul offcourse. If they can adapt Superman vs. Doomsday and The New Frontier, they can easily adapt Knightfall aswell.

I apologize for responding to this so late.

I agree about Knightfall as an Animated Trilogy, or miniseries. If done that way it should probably be done as faithfully as possible, whereas I'd be a little more open to changes if it was a feature film in a years-spanning series of films adapting the Batman mythos.


I personally don't think that 'Justice League' did a good job adapting Superman vs. Doomsday, although I'm not sure which episode you're referring to. In his first appearance on that show, Doomsday was fighting the wrong Superman, which negates any connection to the comics in that instance.
Then again, I'm not entirely sure it's worth adapting. Doomsday was a cheap publicity stunt to begin with. "Death of Superman" my ass...


I don't know what 'The New Frontier' is. Can you enlighten me and tell me where it was adapted in animation?

Thanks for posting, Cobblepot.

 

[Cobblepot]

Superman vs. Doomsday will be a new feature length animation film by Bruce Timm, there's is yet no release date set.

The New Frontier (The famous series by Darwyn Cooke, depicting the struggles off Superheroes in the Goldenage against their Goverment), will also be a feature lenght animation film, who's involved is yet unknown. I'm crossing my fingers that Darwyn Cooke will be involved.

It's basically DC's reaction to The Avengers movie by Marvel.

Regarding Knightfall:
A four parter would be best, if it should remain a faithfull adaption of the comics.

Part 1. Introducing Bane and Azrael and establish their motives.

Part 2. Knightfall

Part 3. Knightquest (This would be tricky since this should both have an equal part of J.P. Valley's rampage as Bruce's quest to regainhis strenght and sanity.

Part 4. Knightsend

The reason Knightfall would be the best story to do is simple, becuase it involves so many supporting characters / villians. I'd just love to see them all in animation. The style of the series should imo be something in between TAS and Breyfogle/Aparo's art.

The next best thing would offcourse be "The Long Halloween" in a Tim Sale animated style.