BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

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See, to me Zack is a much better director than the Russos. The Russos make everything look like a TV show. Like, I want to see Civil War, but purely because I'm invested in the characters and I love Spidey. I didn't like TWS that much at all, and while I enjoyed the trailers for Civil War, all these clips they're releasing are actually pretty lame. I don't get the Russo love, I really don't. I'm worried about the Infinity War films because the Russos aren't fit to light Joss Whedon's farts and even he couldn't save AoU.

If you think the Russos are more talented than Zack Snyder I really don't know what to tell you. But compare the cinematography in any Snyder film to anything the Russos have done. I mean come on. Any frame from BvS is prettier than any frame from CW, even if you hated BvS as a film. Come on.

Everyone knows Zack paints a pretty looking picture. Visuals aren't his problem story-telling is.

Maybe Zack should become a cinematographer because he certainly isn't a story-teller?

BvS had some great visuals (the final fight scene was a bit generic tbh) it was a mess in most other aspects. The pieces were all there for even a half competent director to come up with something at least decent.

Dream scenario the Russo's hire Zack as their cinematographer and everybody's happy...
 
Snyder is style and no substance. The worst kind of director.
 
Snyder is a glorified cinematographer who's more interested in the pictures doing all the work as opposed to actually telling us something cohesive. I've resisted saying this for so long because I didn't think it was a fair comparison. I gave Snyder the benefit of the doubt so many times because I knew at least he was trying to do something good. But the way he went about MoS, and BvS and how he's tried to justify some of his creative decisions, on top of his list of other bad movies, not to mention his shear arrogance towards critique, makes me now think he's actually a worse director than Michael Bay.

Bay a least knows he makes obnoxious movies and doesn't apologise for them, he doesn't pretend they are anything more than what they are. Snyder tries to make his films look far more intelligent than what they actually are, spewing philosophy and ideologies in an attempt to sound smart whilst overlooking the fundamentals of narrative and character development. Synder is like some contemporary artist who thinks he's smart by throwing a bunch of trash on the ground, calls it high art and expects you to find meaning in it. Bay is like an artist who's throws trash on the ground, knows it's trash, knows it has no meaning to it, but also knows someone is going to buy it for $100,000 because some people are idiots. Both directors make ordinary movies, but only one of them is quite happy to embrace that.
 
That you're pleading for Bruce to agree with you here speaks volumes. Personally, I think that Snyder's visual talent is oversold. His techniques and sensibilities remind me of the HDR craze that was so pervasive in photography about a decade ago (and has now crept into the mainstream in the form of social media and mobile phones). There were a lot of people resting on HDR bracketed exposures in an effort to make their otherwise mediocre photos pop. I remember a few people calling BvS "Instagram Filter: The Movie" and, hyperbole aside, I can definitely see where they're coming from. Anyway, this is what Snyder's cinematography is to me - an exercise in excess. He seems to believe that the best way to achieve a desired effect is to assault the senses with as much noise as he can. This is among the reasons why the Bay & Emmerich comparisons are completely warranted IMO, because the guy rarely knows when to rein it in.

I don't think I know what you're trying to say about assaulting the senses, especially with a movie like this one that has as much quiet drama as it does. Unless you're talking specifically the action scenes. Snyder definitely has a thing that he does, his movies tend to LOOK like comic books (without going all Ang Lee's Hulk-crazy) and I get that not everybody goes for that. I'll even give you that he can sometimes lack a certain deftness of hand in the way he handles emotional material.

Also I wouldn't characterize that as "pleading," especially since I get nothing out of it even if he agrees. I just find it hard to believe how much people like the Russos.

My only criticisms be opening with the Wayne murders (we all know the story and maybe the time would be better spent showing Lex's perspective on the battle in Metropolis) and that the final battle was at night-time (my criticism for every action film that does this - Joss Whedon is king for simply putting the main Avengers fights in daylight and say what you like about Michael Bay, but at least he also uses daylight) - though that said it was very well done and easier to actually see than most night battles.

My only responses here are, 1.) the Wayne murders had to be revisited for this story because they're a part of the way the story functions. It was important to establish the incident as the motive for Bruce to become Batman, and to establish the connection between that and how he felt standing in the rubble at the Black Zero Event. That connection is crucial as it shows that being Batman no longer makes him feel in control, hence his descent into new depths of cruelty and violence. Thus also the reason that Clark saying "you're letting them kill Martha" makes Bruce freak out, and why saving Martha Kent helps Bruce reclaim his soul. You literally cannot tell that story without revisiting Crime Alley.

Is Gotham in the comics that close to Metropolis ttgat the Bat Signal is visible? Or has the movie altered the geography of DC America?

That's strictly a movie thing, they put them across a bay from one another, made them twin cities.

Not a criticism, as maybe I'm wrong, but does anyone else think that Lex was a little too nuts in that final scene?

Oh he's totally flipped his **** in that scene, but he's seen things in the Kryptonian archive that have broken him...have you seen the deleted scene that Warners released last week?

Superman will be resurrected in Justice League but is Clark Kent dead (as far as the world knows) for the rest of these franchise?

Any answer anybody gives you to that right now would be pure speculation, I don't think anybody really knows.

Good cinematography and interesting shots do not make a good film, as we saw with BvS. The Russos know how to get you to care for the characters, and they respect the characters as well.

Snyder loves these characters, but I assume you're referring to the Jimmy Olsen thing. As far as the Russos getting you to care for the characters, that's got to be pretty easy when there have been half a dozen films previous released that establish these characters and the continuity. Hard to give them credit for anything other than not ****ing it up; but with that cast, and their established relationships, again... it'd probably be pretty hard to mess that up.

But that is quite literally ALL BvS has. It is, without a doubt, a beautiful film. In fact, it's one of the most beautiful-looking films I've seen in a long time.

But the Russos know how to tell a damn story. They know how to make the audience care about the characters. They know how to craft and sustain an arc.

I get that a lot of people don't see or feel arcs in BvS but, 1.) those things are determined heavily by the script, and 2.) BvS HAS arcs, and they are pretty carefully constructed and layered in the visuals and the dialogue. A lot of other people have said the same, a lot of people aren't digging it but all that stuff is there, I'm not delusional here or I would be the only one seeing this stuff...
 
As far as the Russos getting you to care for the characters, that's got to be pretty easy when there have been half a dozen films previous released that establish these characters and the continuity. Hard to give them credit for anything other than not ****ing it up; but with that cast, and their established relationships, again... it'd probably be pretty hard to mess that up.

"Oh, so you've made two movies in a row that have played within the constraints set up by previous films and have also been setting up what's to come while also carefully crafting a story that makes you care for each individual character and their journey within the story in question? Big deal." :lmao:
And here you are praising a director who has had significantly more creative control with two movies and couldn't get general audiences to love the two most iconic superheroes of all time.
 
"Oh, so you've made two movies in a row that have played within the constraints set up by previous films and have also been setting up what's to come while also carefully crafting a story that makes you care for each individual character and their journey within the story in question? Big deal." :lmao:
And here you are praising a director who has had significantly more creative control with two movies and couldn't get general audiences to love the two most iconic superheroes of all time.

I believe the phrase the young people use for posts such as this is 'sick burn'.

Bravo.
 
"Oh, so you've made two movies in a row that have played within the constraints set up by previous films and have also been setting up what's to come while also carefully crafting a story that makes you care for each individual character and their journey within the story in question? Big deal." :lmao:
And here you are praising a director who has had significantly more creative control with two movies and couldn't get general audiences to love the two most iconic superheroes of all time.

What are you giving them credit for, exactly? I'm saying we already care about these characters, and we did before TWS. All that talk about the constraints and crafting the story, doesn't that credit go just as much to the screenwriters, and hell Kevin Feige who seems to control the direction these things go in very, very carefully? Marvel loses great directors all the time because they don't want to operate within the constraints of the Marvel system (Patty Jenkins, Ava Duvernay, Edgar Wright). I'm not saying the Russos aren't competent, I'm just saying they don't really have to be much more than competent to thrive in the Marvel system. Anybody with a strong creative vision seems to get frustrated pretty quickly in that environment. Oh hello Joss Whedon, yes, I am referring to you, good sir.

Edit: To be clear, yes, I am basically saying that people like the Russos end up working for Marvel because better directors won't, and Marvel has a system that doesn't really require a good director to be successful. I'm not even bringing Snyder back into this conversation, it's immaterial.

And after all this big talk you better hope "The Infinity War" doesn't take place in an empty parking lot on a sunny afternoon.
 
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And I think this again comes down to me not being the Superman fan that you are. I don't really require him to be perfect in every way. I require him to always do the right thing in the end. But like I said... I'm not a hardcore Superman fan, he's just a character I loved as a kid and still enjoy casually. Batman, I have grown to love more and more over the years, that's my guy. :D

That's fair enough. Everyone has their favorites.

I do think that superman being a more thorough character would improve the movie for more that just supes fans though. It might even earn him some new ones. There seems to be many more Captain America fans around here since his movies started coming out.

The character of superman in BvS wasn't just flawed in a precise manner that only extreme fans would notice, IMO. There were fundamentals of story-telling neglected. Much of the audience didn't connect with him.

Also, if you're going to make a movie about superman and not just make some original character, you should be aware of the weight of that. People will have preconceptions because the character has been in common circles for so long. It's unavoidable and reasonable. If you want to take advantage of the superman name and make money off a movie about him, then you have to take the negatives that come with it, fan expectations being one of those.

That you're pleading for Bruce to agree with you here speaks volumes. Personally, I think that Snyder's visual talent is oversold. His techniques and sensibilities remind me of the HDR craze that was so pervasive in photography about a decade ago (and has now crept into the mainstream in the form of social media and mobile phones). There were a lot of people resting on HDR bracketed exposures in an effort to make their otherwise mediocre photos pop. I remember a few people calling BvS "Instagram Filter: The Movie" and, hyperbole aside, I can definitely see where they're coming from. Anyway, this is what Snyder's cinematography is to me - an exercise in excess. He seems to believe that the best way to achieve a desired effect is to assault the senses with as much noise as he can. This is among the reasons why the Bay & Emmerich comparisons are completely warranted IMO, because the guy rarely knows when to rein it in.

Other than that, I think you're selling his cinematography just a little too hard, as that's but one slice of the pie when it comes to a director's responsibilities. From my pov, the Russos have demonstrated a far superior acumen when it comes to character, themes, dialogue, storytelling, and action. For that matter, so has David Ayer and George Miller. Frankly, I'd take just about anybody at Marvel, Fox, or WB/DC over him at this point.

I don't think Snyder's visual prowess is oversold. It may not be to everyone's tastes (I can see how some would think it's "loud"), but I think there's a reason many people say his strengths lie in that area.

My faith in Snyder has always been wavering and I consider his inconsistencies to be the reason. Sometimes, he produces amazing scenes, but more often than not, something goes awry, be it characters, pacing or motives. But the one thing he can be counted on for is something visually stunning in some way. He strikes me as a half-baked artists that thinks in pictures. He makes the mistake of assuming others will see his visions if he puts the pretty things on the screen and is rather inarticulate with words. His movies tend to come out in much the same way as his speech: Oddly paced, heaped in unrealized promises, but punctuated with the odd hit of something profound. He just can't make a coherent films out of these visions of his precisely because they're visions and by nature are incomplete or floating islands. Of course, that's all just speculation on what I see of him. I don't really know the man.

My point is that the odd bits of genius often come out in his visuals. Some examples:

OcxC9bK.gif


This was only shown for a few seconds in MOS, but it's spellbinding. It says so much without words. It's a vision of utter devastation and impending loneliness or loss of a magnitude that could hardly be encased in words.



hcv0SU7.gif


Then we have this from Watchmen. Again, just a short snippet, but it seems like a beautifully brutal way to highlight the broken and decaying world in which this movie is set.

I can't shows any gifs, but even in BvS, we have these type of things. Remember Bruce's first nightmare with the giant bat bursting out of his parents' tomb? That was as jarring to the audience as it was to Bruce and gave a quick insight into his state of mine, as well as looking really cool. The first scene of batman ("It saved us") was also perfectly composed. It was almost taken verbatim from either a comic or discussions on this board detailing how "creature of the night" batman should be represented.

Anyways, I'm not trying to change your mind. If you don't like Snyder's style, that's ok. And I agree with many of the story-telling complaints brought about him and that many other directors are better story-tellers than he is. I just don't think he's completely talentless and wanted to present a counterpoint and say that Snyder's visuals are something for which he should be credited, IMO.



Really I think it's mostly that they wanted Superman to take part in the dialogue, rather than being the dialogue.

Yes. This is accurate.
 
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What are you giving them credit for, exactly? I'm saying we already care about these characters, and we did before TWS. All that talk about the constraints and crafting the story, doesn't that credit go just as much to the screenwriters, and hell Kevin Feige who seems to control the direction these things go in very, very carefully? Marvel loses great directors all the time because they don't want to operate within the constraints of the Marvel system (Patty Jenkins, Ava Duvernay, Edgar Wright). I'm not saying the Russos aren't competent, I'm just saying they don't really have to be much more than competent to thrive in the Marvel system. Anybody with a strong creative vision seems to get frustrated pretty quickly in that environment. Oh hello Joss Whedon, yes, I am referring to you, good sir.

Edit: To be clear, yes, I am basically saying that people like the Russos end up working for Marvel because better directors won't, and Marvel has a system that doesn't really require a good director to be successful. I'm not even bringing Snyder back into this conversation, it's immaterial.

This is a crude and incorrect description of Marvel's system. They hire up and coming directors who are both talented and hungry, and play to their strengths within the sandbox of the MCU. Say what you want, I think it's worked out quite well for them.

And after all this big talk you better hope "The Infinity War" doesn't take place in an empty parking lot on a sunny afternoon.

Is this in reference to the CW airport scene, which from early reviews has been described as one of the best action sequences in any superhero movie? :funny:
I could easily defend the Russo brothers from your reductive and incorrect description, but this isn't the proper thread. If you'd like, feel free to carry this conversation over here:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=33453923#post33453923

Let's get back to Snyder. Again, you're defending a director who has been steering a franchise with two of the most well known superheroes of all time and has, on both attempts, left an overwhelmingly large portion of the audience underwhelmed each time. He's had two movies to prove himself, two different tries to flesh out his vision in ways that would make any other director of a big franchise green with envy, two attempts to make us care for the characters, and has largely failed. I'm not sure what WB saw in him, but it isn't working out well for them so far.
I want to go back to a previous point I made about how underwhelmed I was with BvS' from an aesthetic standpoint. That's one thing that everyone can unanimously agree on is that Snyder has a great eye, but this might be his ugliest film to date. The final fight in particular is pretty unpleasant to look at.
He makes the mistake of assuming others will see his visions if he puts the pretty things on the screen and is rather inarticulate with words. His movies tend to come out in much the same way as his speech: Oddly paced, heaped in unrealized promises, but punctuated with the odd hit of something profound. He just can't make a coherent films out of these visions of his precisely because they're visions and by nature are incomplete or floating islands.

You really hit the nail on the head here.
 
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That's fair enough. Everyone has their favorites.

I do think that superman being a more thorough character would improve the movie for more that just supes fans though. It might even earn him some new ones. There seems to be many more Captain America fans around here since his movies started coming out.

The character of superman in BvS wasn't just flawed in a precise manner that only extreme fans would notice, IMO. There were fundamentals of story-telling neglected. Much of the audience didn't connect with him.

Also, if you're going to make a movie about superman and not just make some original character, you should be aware of the weight of that. People will have preconceptions because the character has been in common circles for so long. It's unavoidable and reasonable. If you want to take advantage of the superman name and make money off a movie about him, then you have to take the negatives that come with it, fan expectations being one of those.



I don't think Snyder's visual prowess is oversold. It may not be to everyone's tastes (I can see how some would think it's "loud"), but I think there's a reason many people say his strengths lie in that area.

My faith in Snyder has always been wavering and I consider his inconsistencies to be the reason. Sometimes, he produces amazing scenes, but more often than not, something goes awry, be it characters, pacing or motives. But the one thing he can be counted on for is something visually stunning in some way. He strikes me as a half-baked artists that thinks in pictures. He makes the mistake of assuming others will see his visions if he puts the pretty things on the screen and is rather inarticulate with words. His movies tend to come out in much the same way as his speech: Oddly paced, heaped in unrealized promises, but punctuated with the odd hit of something profound. He just can't make a coherent films out of these visions of his precisely because they're visions and by nature are incomplete or floating islands. Of course, that's all just speculation on what I see of him. I don't really know the man.

My point is that the odd bits of genius often come out in his visuals. Some examples:

OcxC9bK.gif


This was only shown for a few seconds in MOS, but it's spellbinding. It says so much without words. It's a vision of utter devastation and impending loneliness or loss of a magnitude that could hardly be encased in words.



hcv0SU7.gif


Then we have this from Watchmen. Again, just a short snippet, but it seems like a beautifully brutal way to highlight the broken and decaying world in which this movie is set.

I can't shows any gifs, but even in BvS, we have these type of things. Remember Bruce's first nightmare with the giant bat bursting out of his parents' tomb? That was as jarring to the audience as it was to Bruce and gave a quick insight into his state of mine, as well as looking really cool. The first scene of batman ("It saved us") was also perfectly composed. It was almost taken verbatim from either a comic or discussions on this board detailing how "creature of the night" batman should be represented.

Anyways, I'm not trying to change your mind. If you don't like Snyder's style, that's ok. And I agree with many of the story-telling complaints brought about him and that many other directors are better story-tellers than he is. I just don't think he's completely talentless and wanted to present a counterpoint and say that Snyder's visuals are something for which he should be credited, IMO.





Yes. This is accurate.

I'm quoting your entire post because, honestly, it's perfect. Snyder has a knack for visuals, and just these two gifs prove it. He definitely understands the old saying "a picture is worth a thousand words".

But that simply isn't good enough for a head director. Again... I see no evidence that Snyder can tell a story or is in any way competent with characterization.

I'd be perfectly fine with WB keeping him as the head visual director while getting someone else to do characters and story.
 
It's inevitable that some people who didn't get around to seeing it after hearing the initial reviews, or kids that are too young, will eventually watch it and enjoy it. I just don't think it's going to amount to a wide-spread re-evaluation amongst the larger fan community.

Well, I'll say this, The Lone Ranger has been cited on a list of films destined for cult status(among Prometheus, and not to mention being praised by Quentin Tarantino and being on his top ten films of 2013) and there are critics who shared this thought. If TLR does indeed achieve this, I think it's a safe assumption that BvS will do so as well. Maybe much earlier.
 
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That's fair enough. Everyone has their favorites.

Of course. :up:

I do think that superman being a more thorough character would improve the movie for more that just supes fans though. It might even earn him some new ones. There seems to be many more Captain America fans around here since his movies started coming out.

Including me, I've never read a Captain America comic, but his first solo movie made me love the character. I loved how he was handled in Avengers, as well, but since then I kind of feel like he's become less clearly defined, and used less effectively. But I still bought a Cap t-shirt so I can rep when I go see Civil War. :woot:

So I do feel you on this issue, I really do, even if I don't have any major issues with the movie. I get your point and respect what you're saying.

The character of superman in BvS wasn't just flawed in a precise manner that only extreme fans would notice, IMO. There were fundamentals of story-telling neglected. Much of the audience didn't connect with him.

It seems that much of the audience didn't connect with the story on the whole. But I know, as I said, even I felt, particularly on my first viewing, that he got kind of shafted because I was more engaged by scenes involving Batman and Wonder Woman and even Lex Luthor. So again...I do feel you, I really do.

Also, if you're going to make a movie about superman and not just make some original character, you should be aware of the weight of that. People will have preconceptions because the character has been in common circles for so long. It's unavoidable and reasonable. If you want to take advantage of the superman name and make money off a movie about him, then you have to take the negatives that come with it, fan expectations being one of those.

Fair enough. I suppose I could also posit that, the film being built as a revenge tragedy, and Batman and Superman being basically twin Hamlet figures, Superman had to be presented with some conundrum to wrestle with, his own "to be or not to be" as it were. But I know the rebuttal is basically, "so don't do that with Superman, or it isn't Superman." Am I right? :)

I don't think Snyder's visual prowess is undersold. It may not be to everyone's tastes (I can see how some would think it's "loud"), but I think there's a reason many people say his strengths lie in that area.

Indeed. It's weird, I always end up coming off like a huge Snyder fan, and I'm not one, I haven't even seen all of his movies (and I don't even own all of the ones I've seen) but I do think he's talented and I feel compelled to defend him because I don't think he deserves all the hate.

My faith in Snyder has always been wavering and I consider his inconsistencies to be the reason. Sometimes, he produces amazing scenes, but more often than not, something goes awry, be it characters, pacing or motives. But the one thing he can be counted on for is something visually stunning in some way. He strikes me as a half-baked artists that thinks in pictures. He makes the mistake of assuming others will see his visions if he puts the pretty things on the screen and is rather inarticulate with words. His movies tend to come out in much the same way as his speech: Oddly paced, heaped in unrealized promises, but punctuated with the odd hit of something profound. He just can't make a coherent films out of these visions of his precisely because they're visions and by nature are incomplete or floating islands. Of course, that's all just speculation on what I see of him. I don't really know the man.

I don't know if I agree with all of that, but I do think there's truth in it. His background is Art History, and I do think he must think in pictures. As a guy with an art degree that may be why I get what he's doing sometimes when others don't feel it or don't like it. Because he's a visual storyteller.

My point is that the odd bits of genius often come out in his visuals. Some examples:

OcxC9bK.gif


This was only shown for a few seconds in MOS, but it's spellbinding. It says so much without words. It's a vision of utter devastation and impending loneliness or loss of a magnitude that could hardly be encased in words.

I love all the Krypton stuff in MoS, it's beautiful and weird and feels so correct, much better than the weird crystal stuff in Superman: the Movie (though I love that movie too). It's also... it's got a whiff of Star Wars in it, too.

hcv0SU7.gif


Then we have this from Watchmen. Again, just a short snippet, but it seems like a beautifully brutal way to highlight the broken and decaying world in which this movie is set.

Actually that exact moment is one of the images that I think of first when I think of that movie. I don't even like freaking hippies and I get all choked up when that comes on...

I can't shows any gifs, but even in BvS, we have these type of things. Remember Bruce's first nightmare with the giant bat bursting out of his parents' tomb? That was as jarring to the audience as it was to Bruce and gave a quick insight into his state of mine, as well as looking really cool. The first scene of batman ("It saved us") was also perfectly composed. It was almost taken verbatim from either a comic or discussions on this board detailing how "creature of the night" batman should be represented.

Yes, the monster representing the monster that he's becoming, and that it's the feeling of powerless, of not being in control, that's making him be that way.

Even the "Beautiful Lie" sequence at the beginning, the way it cuts back and forth between the funeral and Crime Alley, giving us lots of "falling" imagery as he talks about how things fall and end, and pass away, and then ends with him rising up with the bats, empowered, saved. The visuals do a lot of the heavy lifting all throughout the movie.

Anyways, I'm not trying to change your mind. If you don't like Snyder's style, that's ok. And I agree with many of the story-telling complaints brought about him and that many other directors are better story-tellers than he is. I just don't think he's completely talentless and wanted to present a counterpoint and say that Snyder's visuals are something for which he should be credited, IMO.

:yay:

Yes. This is accurate.

The Guard has a gift for getting right to the point of things.
 
This is a crude and incorrect description of Marvel's system. They hire up and coming directors who are both talented and hungry, and play to their strengths within the sandbox of the MCU. Say what you want, I think it's worked out quite well for them.

It has certainly worked out quite well for them, on a number of levels. But most of the Marvel films at this point aren't that interesting to me, apart from Guardians. Doctor Strange looks interesting, too, though I know absolutely nothing about that character. As I've said before, I'm not a Marvel guy other than X-Men and Spidey, really.

Is this in reference to the CW airport scene, which from early reviews has been described as one of the best action sequences in any superhero movie? :funny:
I could easily defend the Russo brothers from your reductive and incorrect description, but this isn't the proper thread. If you'd like, feel free to carry this conversation over here:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=33453923#post33453923

I haven't read any of the reviews. I've only seen the trailers and watched the clips they've released, and although I was feeling the trailers, apart from the empty parking lot stuff... the clips have vastly reduced my interest. I'm going to see it of course, but I'm not expecting much. Remember that I didn't think much of TWS, either. It was entertaining but that's all. Anyway I own that I could be off-base, but I'm going by what I know, or have read and seen, anyway. Which is all I can do. I'm not that interested in debating anything Marvel, but the Russos were brought up in here and I had to speak up.

Let's get back to Snyder. Again, you're defending a director who has been steering a franchise with two of the most well known superheroes of all time and has, on both attempts, left an overwhelmingly large portion of the audience underwhelmed each time. He's had two movies to prove himself, two different tries to flesh out his vision in ways that would make any other director of a big franchise green with envy, two attempts to make us care for the characters, and has largely failed. I'm not sure what WB saw in him, but it isn't working out well for them so far.

Here's the thing. Do I want the films to be popular? Yes, because that's how they determine if there are to be more and how much money they want to spend on them, etc. But I don't believe popular = good. Movies that are great can be popular, but a lot of crappy movies are popular, too. The Transformers movies are awful as hell but they keep making them, so they must be profitable, and thus they must be popular. I happen to like both MoS and BvS a great deal, in part because they aren't like the other million and a half superhero movies that come out every year. I hate to keep bringing Marvel back into it, but I really liked the MCU films when they first started, didn't love but enjoyed; Phase 2 was pretty hit or miss for me, and I have a feeling that is going to be the case for Phase 3 as well. I'm really glad that DC is doing something different, and it's something I'm enjoying so far, and so it's hard for me to take seriously anybody who says the movies should be more like the MCU. I would actually be very disappointed by that.
 
It baffles me that a filmmaker is considered a bad storyteller because he does so much of his storytelling with images instead of endless exposition. Film's mandate has pretty much always been "Show, don't tell". That's half its appeal. Not that this film didn't also "tell" plenty.

It also baffles me that people keep making blanket statements about how this person or that person is solely responsible for movie quality, be it good or bad.

Baffles me. It's basically a corporate buzz phrase. Largely meaningless, and not always true.

Look, the idea that a director should be/is solely responsible for the quality of a final product is all well and good, but it's just not accurate on any real level, and it's borderline offensive to the other people involved in making a film. Especially in a massive corporate environment like Warner Brothers. There has to be a structure in place, and other things have to fall into place along the way.
 
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It baffles me that a filmmaker is considered a bad storyteller because he does so much of his storytelling with images. Film's mandate has pretty much always been "Show, don't tell". That's half its appeal. Not that this film didn't also "tell" plenty.

It also baffles me that people keep making blanket statements about how this person or that person is solely responsible for movie quality, be it good or bad.

Baffles me. It's basically a corporate buzz phrase. Largely meaningless, and not always true.

Look, the idea that a director is solely responsible for the quality of a product is all well and good, but it's just not accurate, and it's borderline offensive to the other people involved in making a film. Especially in a massive corporate environment like Warner Brothers. There has to be a structure in place, and other things have to fall into place along the way.

This.
 
Snyder is a glorified cinematographer who's more interested in the pictures doing all the work as opposed to actually telling us something cohesive. I've resisted saying this for so long because I didn't think it was a fair comparison. I gave Snyder the benefit of the doubt so many times because I knew at least he was trying to do something good. But the way he went about MoS, and BvS and how he's tried to justify some of his creative decisions, on top of his list of other bad movies, not to mention his shear arrogance towards critique, makes me now think he's actually a worse director than Michael Bay.

Bay a least knows he makes obnoxious movies and doesn't apologise for them, he doesn't pretend they are anything more than what they are. Snyder tries to make his films look far more intelligent than what they actually are, spewing philosophy and ideologies in an attempt to sound smart whilst overlooking the fundamentals of narrative and character development. Synder is like some contemporary artist who thinks he's smart by throwing a bunch of trash on the ground, calls it high art and expects you to find meaning in it. Bay is like an artist who's throws trash on the ground, knows it's trash, knows it has no meaning to it, but also knows someone is going to buy it for $100,000 because some people are idiots. Both directors make ordinary movies, but only one of them is quite happy to embrace that.

This.

It says a lot when you can put Michael Bay above Snyder as a film maker.
 
I think it mostly has to do with the story that was told.

There's a definite story, there are themes explored, there are character arcs.

But it wasn't the ones people wanted to see for the most part.

When the dust settles, and the wounds of unfulfilled expectations start to heal, this film is going to grow on people.
 
It baffles me that a filmmaker is considered a bad storyteller because he does so much of his storytelling with images instead of endless exposition. Film's mandate has pretty much always been "Show, don't tell". That's half its appeal. Not that this film didn't also "tell" plenty.

It also baffles me that people keep making blanket statements about how this person or that person is solely responsible for movie quality, be it good or bad.

Baffles me. It's basically a corporate buzz phrase. Largely meaningless, and not always true.

Look, the idea that a director should be/is solely responsible for the quality of a final product is all well and good, but it's just not accurate on any real level, and it's borderline offensive to the other people involved in making a film. Especially in a massive corporate environment like Warner Brothers. There has to be a structure in place, and other things have to fall into place along the way.

I agree, and that's why I defend Snyder when he "peaks." His best scenes are some of the best in the genre.
 
Batman and Robin told a story, too. Like BvS it was neither a good one, nor told in a competent way.

I think time will be even more unkind to this movie than it is being to MOS.
 
Batman and Robin told a story, too. Like BvS it was neither a good one, nor told in a competent way.

I think time will be even more unkind to this movie than it is being to MOS.

That doesn't seem like a fair comparison to me. At all.
 
Batman and Robin told a story, too. Like BvS it was neither a good one, nor told in a competent way.

I think time will be even more unkind to this movie than it is being to MOS.

At least one of them I can watch over and over again. :oldrazz:
 
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