BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Tacit Ronin]

A world's finest team up movie would've been so much the better.

 

[MadVillainy]

I always thought WF is a better way to go.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I really don't even like the idea of Batman fighting Superman. It's just corny to me now. When I was a kid I loved it, now I can do without it.

I'm willing to give the concept a chance, as I was with BvS. But if you give me the option I'll say don't do it.

 

[jmc]

A world's finest team up movie would've been so much the better.

It needed more than that IMO. It needed a MoS 2 + solo Batman movie first.

 

[Corko]

I always thought WF is a better way to go.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I really don't even like the idea of Batman fighting Superman. It's just corny to me now. When I was a kid I loved it, now I can do without it.

I'm willing to give the concept a chance, as I was with BvS. But if you give me the option I'll say don't do it.

As soon as the movie began I got an overwhelming to see them team up straightaway I think a WF movie could still be done. But not with Snyder

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Yeah. They will never fight for long. Their mommies are Martha after all.

 

[matt47]

A world's finest team up movie would've been so much the better.

An actual Batman vs Superman movie would've been better than what he got.

 

[Corko]

An actual Batman vs Superman movie would've been better than what he got.

I agree with that criticism definitely. I wanted a Zod/Superman length fight

 

[shauner111]

Even that part of Dark Knight Returns is not really interesting to me anymore. Obviously if there's a way to make them fight, the way they did it in Returns would have been the way to go for this universe. But towards the end. Like 5 years from now.

MOS 2 should have had Bruce as a character. A Batman movie with Affleck and Leto would have been great right after Suicide Squad. Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman films around the same time. Then do a Justice League. Or a Worlds Finest before Justice League.

I honestly never grew up hoping to see Batman and Superman fighting. Once I grew up, I was exposed to DKReturns and wanted to see it, but I figured it would be handled with logic. Not like this. Worlds Finest really felt like the right move.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Speaking of World's Finest

[YT]F90nxOlsm1s[/YT] So good.

 

[Martha]

Who are you assuming Snyder knows talent? To know Snyder, you gotta think like him.

"Alright Batman, who played Daredevil?"

"Ok so for Lex, let's get the guy who played Mark Zuckerberg."

"For Aquaman lets get Drogo."

"For Wonder Woman, let's get one of the Fast & Furious girls."

"For Flash, let's get an actor who looks like he's on speed."

The three in the middle nail it. When I heard that Momoa was playing Aquaman, I just pictured Zack Snyder being in an exec's office saying "We're gonna get the guy who played Khal Drogo to play Aquaman, because Drogo was a badass, and we need to show the people that Aquaman can be a badass, too."

I'm not saying Momoa is a bad actor, I'm just saying that I get the feeling they want Aquaman to be a lot like some of his other parts (Conan, Drogo, etc.). Aquaman isn't really either of those, though.

I just feel like Snyder is a fanboy who has been given the keys to the city. It's not going to end well.

 

[Kane52630]

Speaking of World's Finest

[YT]F90nxOlsm1s[/YT] So good.

yup

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/127718413754/worlds-finest-part-ii-superman-the-animated

 

[Timebomb]

The more I think about this film, especially after having watched Civil War, is that this simply was the wrong time for the concept of Batman and Superman fighting one and other. Cap and Iron Man having a falling out works because not only is there an existing relationship there, the reasons for the falling out stretches all the way back to the first Iron Man movie.

I'm not giving anything away but for both films collateral damage is the cause for the heroes to be fighting, the difference is with Iron Man and Cap there's history there already, it's powerful because you know these two are teammates and you know why they have chosen the side they have. And when they come to blows it's sad, it's not meant to just look cool, it's made to be emotional, it's meant to make you say 'Steve, Tony, please, stop fighting!'.

But BvS isn't that, it's two strangers fighting one and other. Why should we care? The simple fact remains that both characters don't know one and other, and if they don't know each other then you can't really build the tension the same way. What makes it worse is that both characters aren't ideologically that different. No contrast, no difference of opinion, just two people being tools towards one and other. This was simply the wrong time for this concept, it needed to be 2-3 films for this to really hit an emotional height. Instead, it's hollow.

It was like it just started with, we have to put Batman in it and they have to fight because that would be awesome. Then they just reversed engineered the whole story around that. Bad choice.

 

[MrsKent26]

yup

http://kane52630.tumblr.com/post/127718413754/worlds-finest-part-ii-superman-the-animated

This really makes me want a World's Finest movie. I love their banter. I especially like that Bruce isn't the only clever/witty one with banter like this.

 

[MadVillainy]

I rewatched World's Finest and Public Enemies last week. Both of them are great and are really good representations of the characters

 

[DerekLake]

The more I think about this film, especially after having watched Civil War, is that this simply was the wrong time for the concept of Batman and Superman fighting one and other. Cap and Iron Man having a falling out works because not only is there an existing relationship there, the reasons for the falling out stretches all the way back to the first Iron Man movie.

I'm not giving anything away but for both films collateral damage is the cause for the heroes to be fighting, the difference is with Iron Man and Cap there's history there already, it's powerful because you know these two are teammates and you know why they have chosen the side they have. And when they come to blows it's sad, it's not meant to just look cool, it's made to be emotional, it's meant to make you say 'Steve, Tony, please, stop fighting!'.

But BvS isn't that, it's two strangers fighting one and other. Why should we care? The simple fact remains that both characters don't know one and other, and if they don't know each other then you can't really build the tension the same way. What makes it worse is that both characters aren't ideologically that different. No contrast, no difference of opinion, just two people being tools towards one and other. This was simply the wrong time for this concept, it needed to be 2-3 films for this to really hit an emotional height. Instead, it's hollow.

I think it could have worked. I've always thought that a conflict between Batman and Superman actually DOES make more sense at the beginning of their relationship rather than at the end. It's not the same relationship as Cap and Iron Man, and even TDKR has to twist Superman's behavior to get them to fight.

The key, of course is that the substance of their fight isn't emotional (not towards the other, at least), but rather partly philosophical and partly a turf war. And I think MOS adds a more interesting dimension in terms of the destructive circumstances surrounding Superman's appearance.

So Batman v Superman could have been a good story about two controversial heroes coming into conflict and finding a middle ground both in how they view the other and in terms of how they operate. A redemption story for Batman and a trial by fire for Superman that leads directly into the Justice League by focusing on one central question: What is Justice?

That, of course, would have required writers who first understand the characters enough to know how to change it up while keeping it the same.

 

[Marvel Knight]

The Russo Bros on ScreenJunkies Honest Trailers discussing Winter Soldier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpk1TE2_Gcc


Love their philosophy when it comes to making their film honest-trailer proof.


They discuss how they've reinvented the boring boyscout Cap to be a modern relevant character.

 

[Jaxon]

The point of them fighting was a few things;

1) Redeem a lost Batman. You were meant to struggle with Batman's choice and to cry out for him to return to the Batman you know.
2) To have Superman be the catalyst that brings Bruce back for his despair and regain his humanity. You were meant to root for and sympathise with Superman.
3) To give Batman some relevance in the JL by demonstrating his ability to plan and defeat superhumans. Batman, despite what people think, is hard to justify in a superhuman world so a lot of exposition is required to maintain his relevance.

None of this could happen without being forced into conflict,.hence Lex's plan. Superman may have given Batman a shallow threat but he would never knowingly seek out Batman to harm him without being pushed.

 

[jmc]

The point of them fighting was a few things;

1) Redeem a lost Batman. You were meant to struggle with Batman's choice and to cry out for him to return to the Batman you know.
2) To have Superman be the catalyst that brings Bruce back for his despair and regain his humanity. You were meant to root for and sympathise with Superman.
3) To give Batman some relevance in the JL by demonstrating his ability to plan and defeat superhumans. Batman, despite what people think, is hard to justify in a superhuman world so a lot of exposition is required to maintain his relevance.

None of this could happen without being forced into conflict,.hence Lex's plan. Superman may have given Batman a shallow threat but he would never knowingly seek out Batman to harm him without being pushed.

You don't need for them to fight for any of that to happen. That's the biggest issue with BvS, the situation is avoidable. The Avengers falling out in contrast doesn't feel avoidable because of the history between the characters.

 

[Timebomb]

The point of them fighting was a few things;

1) Redeem a lost Batman. You were meant to struggle with Batman's choice and to cry out for him to return to the Batman you know.
2) To have Superman be the catalyst that brings Bruce back for his despair and regain his humanity. You were meant to root for and sympathise with Superman.
3) To give Batman some relevance in the JL by demonstrating his ability to plan and defeat superhumans. Batman, despite what people think, is hard to justify in a superhuman world so a lot of exposition is required to maintain his relevance.

None of this could happen without being forced into conflict,.hence Lex's plan. Superman may have given Batman a shallow threat but he would never knowingly seek out Batman to harm him without being pushed.

That's the problem. The filmmakers MEANT a lot and for a large number of us, that just didn't work. This was a missed opportunity for a great live action Batman and Superman film. IMO it was foolishly wasted.

 

[AndrewOz]

Yeah. They will never fight for long. Their mommies are Martha after all.

No, now they can never fight again!!!

 

[Skrilla31]

I always thought WF is a better way to go.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I really don't even like the idea of Batman fighting Superman. It's just corny to me now. When I was a kid I loved it, now I can do without it.

I'm willing to give the concept a chance, as I was with BvS. But if you give me the option I'll say don't do it.

I'm with you. As a kid I never even imagined them fighting each other seeing as they were always portrayed as allies.

All the time I see people say "People have always dreamed about seeing these two fight"... but I swear the thought never even crossed my mind until I was a teenager and heard about Dark Knight Returns. Prior to that I only knew (or wanted to see them) them as buddies.

They wouldn't have even needed a subtitle, if they had simply called the movie "World's Finest" and just juxtaposed both logos side by side... that would have been enough. And it would have absolutely destroyed.

 

[X Knight]

The more I think about this film, especially after having watched Civil War, is that this simply was the wrong time for the concept of Batman and Superman fighting one and other. Cap and Iron Man having a falling out works because not only is there an existing relationship there, the reasons for the falling out stretches all the way back to the first Iron Man movie.

I'm not giving anything away but for both films collateral damage is the cause for the heroes to be fighting, the difference is with Iron Man and Cap there's history there already, it's powerful because you know these two are teammates and you know why they have chosen the side they have. And when they come to blows it's sad, it's not meant to just look cool, it's made to be emotional, it's meant to make you say 'Steve, Tony, please, stop fighting!'.

But BvS isn't that, it's two strangers fighting one and other. Why should we care? The simple fact remains that both characters don't know one and other, and if they don't know each other then you can't really build the tension the same way. What makes it worse is that both characters aren't ideologically that different. No contrast, no difference of opinion, just two people being tools towards one and other. This was simply the wrong time for this concept, it needed to be 2-3 films for this to really hit an emotional height. Instead, it's hollow.

Marvel took the time to build up their characters and their world over multiple films.

DC tried to cram 4 or 5 different films into BvS.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

Batman and Superman fighting as an entree to the Justice League and the DCEU never made any sense. But then, I've never believed it was about either of those things in the first place. It was all about the Benjamins and WB's fear that if they didn't get into the game quick, superhero fatigue (which the top brass are all sure will kick in any year now) would leave Marvel with all the cash and them with nothing. WB and Snyder don't actually care about these characters, they are just intent on pumping movies out as fast as they can in hopes one is an Avengers-money hit.

 

[DerekLake]

Marvel took the time to build up their characters and their world over multiple films.

DC tried to cram 4 or 5 different films into BvS.

Sad thing is that WB really only needed one film: a Batman vs Superman film about the nature of justice that also features an enemy related to Darkseid. They could have done that in a fairly straightforward way if they had a director and writer that were actually steeped in the comics.

 

[Jaxon]

You don't need for them to fight for any of that to happen. That's the biggest issue with BvS, the situation is avoidable. The Avengers falling out in contrast doesn't feel avoidable because of the history between the characters.

If you want comic book stories go read the comic books. I like the creative team looking into the souls of these characters and presenting them in ways that really challenges them. They absolutely nailed the essence of these characters which drove Superman through Act 2 of his life where he finally accepts (despite all the s*** that gets thrown at him by this world - and these forums prove that this is a very accurate depiction of the way the world works) that he is of this world and he can now become Superman.