BvS All Things Batman v Superman: An Open Discussion (TAG SPOILERS) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[DerekLake]

Batman and Superman fighting as an entree to the Justice League and the DCEU never made any sense. But then, I've never believed it was about either of those things in the first place. It was all about the Benjamins and WB's fear that if they didn't get into the game quick, superhero fatigue (which the top brass are all sure will kick in any year now) would leave Marvel with all the cash and them with nothing. WB and Snyder don't actually care about these characters, they are just intent on pumping movies out as fast as they can in hopes one is an Avengers-money hit.

I think it could have worked, had the central issue been about the nature of justice, and whether or not Batman and Superman could each serve the cause of justice when Batman operates outside the law and Superman operates above it. I think that discussion about justice, and the authority to enforce/uphold/realize it, is PERFECTLY relevant to the entire concept of a Justice League, and would best be explored by pitting these two icons -- so different in methodology and philosophy -- against each other.

But that would require an appreciation for and an understanding of the characters, their place in their cities, and their significance to the Justice League.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I always thought WF is a better way to go.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I really don't even like the idea of Batman fighting Superman. It's just corny to me now. When I was a kid I loved it, now I can do without it.

I'm willing to give the concept a chance, as I was with BvS. But if you give me the option I'll say don't do it.

I agree. It's one of the carry overs from TDKR that I really wish would go away. And to be fair, every time it's been done decently, it's very clear that the only reason Batman can even give him a fight is because Superman is holding back. That's one thing I enjoy about Hush, is that Batman himself admits the only reason he's still alive is because Clark is actively fighting Ivy's mind control.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of seeing Batman in the Justice League. He's great as a personality to clash with the other heroes, but when you get down to it, if there's a threat that requires all the JL to be there, Batman is only going to get in the way. Even with the JLU, which was a damn good show, there were lots of moments that had me eye rolling with Bats.

But you just kind of have to accept a higher level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to that. I mean, when you get down to it, you can pick apart any of the heroes. Flash realistically should be pretty much invincible, but the writers purposely dumb him down because it wouldn't be a very fun comic to read if he was. It's just par to the medium.

 

[reaperdakid]

For seem reason I cant picture this JL jus chilling up at the watchtower

 

[DerekLake]

I agree. It's one of the carry overs from TDKR that I really wish would go away. And to be fair, every time it's been done decently, it's very clear that the only reason Batman can even give him a fight is because Superman is holding back. That's one thing I enjoy about Hush, is that Batman himself admits the only reason he's still alive is because Clark is actively fighting Ivy's mind control.

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of seeing Batman in the Justice League. He's great as a personality to clash with the other heroes, but when you get down to it, if there's a threat that requires all the JL to be there, Batman is only going to get in the way. Even with the JLU, which was a damn good show, there were lots of moments that had me eye rolling with Bats.

But you just kind of have to accept a higher level of suspension of disbelief when it comes to that. I mean, when you get down to it, you can pick apart any of the heroes. Flash realistically should be pretty much invincible, but the writers purposely dumb him down because it wouldn't be a very fun comic to read if he was. It's just par to the medium.

Does Iron Man require the same level of suspension of disbelief? Batman can work as a member of the Justice League; he just needs much more tech to assist him.

Superman always holds back when he fights his enemies, unless they are of equal or greater strength. That doesn't make any of his fights less interesting. The key is whether or not the fight is meaningful, which is why I don't like the Hush fight (it's another Superman gets exploited so Batman has to beat/save him). If they are going to fight, give them a compelling reason -- which is why it makes more sense for them to fight BEFORE they know each other really well, rather than afterward. The key, again, is a credible and meaningful conflict (not just a brawl). And I think MOS provided a good foundation for such a fight, but Snyder and co just weren't up to task.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

For seem reason I cant picture this JL jus chilling up at the watchtower

Superheroes talking is silly according to mean Zack.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I think it could have worked, had the central issue been about the nature of justice, and whether or not Batman and Superman could each serve the cause of justice when Batman operates outside the law and Superman operates above it. I think that discussion about justice, and the authority to enforce/uphold/realize it, is PERFECTLY relevant to the entire concept of a Justice League, and would best be explored by pitting these two icons -- so different in methodology and philosophy -- against each other.

But that would require an appreciation for and an understanding of the characters, their place in their cities, and their significance to the Justice League.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was one of those who thought this would clear $1 billion in a walk. All they had to do was not completely screw up, and I couldn't imagine that. As it turns out, I have a poor imagination. I failed to account for them not actually giving a hoot. Not too long ago I ran across this bit:

Zack Snyder told Empire, via Coming Soon, that, after revealing that he was going to pit Superman against Batman, Christopher Nolan (Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises) "found it a little bit hard" to consider. But he ultimately told Snyder: Well, we don’t own these characters. When you’re done making Batman movies, someone else will [make them].

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/What...-Snyder-He-Made-Batman-V-Superman-108707.html

"Well, we don’t own these characters. When you’re done making Batman movies, someone else will [make them]." All Superman and Batman are to them are the comic book equivalent of rental cars. Take 'em off the lot, drive them hard, don't worry about maintenance, and leave whatever beat-up mess at the drop off before you hop your flight. They don't care about these characters, they're just another licensed property to flog.

 

[Charlatan]

If you want comic book stories go read the comic books. I like the creative team looking into the souls of these characters and presenting them in ways that really challenges them. They absolutely nailed the essence of these characters which drove Superman through Act 2 of his life where he finally accepts (despite all the s*** that gets thrown at him by this world - and these forums prove that this is a very accurate depiction of the way the world works) that he is of this world and he can now become Superman.

Both characters found themselves in this film. Bruce after complaining about how everyone was suspect and corruptible and the world, despite all the heroics he had done, was still just as cruel and unappreciative as it ever was,then at the end he says to Diana that there is still good in the world and we need to fight to preserve and protect it. So we see him do a complete 180 too.

 

[Lily Adler]

I rewatched World's Finest and Public Enemies last week. Both of them are great and are really good representations of the characters

Gawd! Make out already.

 

[AndrewOz]

If you want comic book stories go read the comic books. I like the creative team looking into the souls of these characters and presenting them in ways that really challenges them. They absolutely nailed the essence of these characters which drove Superman through Act 2 of his life where he finally accepts (despite all the s*** that gets thrown at him by this world - and these forums prove that this is a very accurate depiction of the way the world works) that he is of this world and he can now become Superman.

Do you read comics? I'm genuinely curious.
Your opening statement is pretty odd when addressing a comic book movie.
As is your assertion that that this movie really looks into "the souls these characters and presenting them in ways that really challenges them".
With the obvious inference that comic books don't. It seems pretty clear that most long term comic book fans here disagree with you, so I'm wondering if that's the reason.

Then there's the other statement as though it's an indisputable fact that Snyder/Goyer/Terrio "absolutely nailed the essence of these characters", when it should be apparent by now that pretty much the entire world, even those not versed in comic lore refutes that

Do you honestly believe this movie has done this better than the comics, or are you just unfamiliar with the comics and judging this in isolation or against other movies/cartoons?

Do you believe a creative team should be able to not only ignore, but refute, the near century of established comic book history when making a comic book movie?
This movie is even more baffling in that regard because it has borrowed, if only visually, from at least 11 comic book story arcs from the last 35years that I can name off the top of my head.

Do you think a comic book movie starring 2(3) of the oldest and most iconic and popular creations on Earth can succeed commercially if the creative team ignore what makes the characters popular?
I'm not trying to bait you, I'm trying to understand your perspective.

 

[reaperdakid]

The whole robin suit thing pisses me off v.v it was half the reason I wanted to see the movie

 

[AndrewOz]

I rewatched World's Finest and Public Enemies last week. Both of them are great and are really good representations of the characters

Jeph really got these characters. It's a shame Snyder et al didn't read or decide to base their characters on his opening run of Batman/Superman.
He seemingly effortlessly cut to the core of their characters, illuminating both the contrasting and complementary facets of their characters in the first few pages of issue one.
He was able to distill the essence of their bond and what makes them truly the Worlds Finest with less time and effort than it would take Snyders Lex to fill a mason jar with granny's peach tea (of course, he also gave us a President Lex that sexually assaulted the Wall). He clearly loved those characters.
Of course, Jeph now works for Marvel...

 

[AndrewOz]

You're on a roll

Yeah, it's been a long week I'm happy that some people were able to enjoy this, but it really annoys me when some seem to believe the only reason they're in the minority is because they're part of some group that has special insight the rest of us obviously lack.
% weeks in and the passion just won't die. That's a good thing right?

 

[jmc]

If you want comic book stories go read the comic books. I like the creative team looking into the souls of these characters and presenting them in ways that really challenges them. They absolutely nailed the essence of these characters which drove Superman through Act 2 of his life where he finally accepts (despite all the s*** that gets thrown at him by this world - and these forums prove that this is a very accurate depiction of the way the world works) that he is of this world and he can now become Superman.

The snobbery is rich in this statement.

 

[AndrewOz]

That's part of the reason for Superman/Clark's death at the end because being able to maintain a secret identity isn't something realistic.

So, Clark Kent will no longer exist in the DCEU, even though Superman will?
It will be interesting to see how well that's handled/ received.
They certainly can't bring him back via the method they used in the comics, unless they're going to tell us that all the people at Clark's funeral already knew he was Superman.

 

[Lily Adler]

We did it, people! We cracked it! Superman is the real identity now. There is no Clark, only Kal. Take that you comic book readers. These are REAL films, not your nonsense.

 

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