BvS Batman v Superman - Reviews Thread [TAG SPOILERS] - Part 2

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That Cap is defined as an all American boy scout, who's boring and not interesting yet Marvel made him work without changing any of his defining character traits.

Yeah that's what I thought your point was
and as I was saying or at least trying to was that I don't think that how Marvel approached Cap is necessarily going to work for Superman.

There are some lessons to be learned though
 
Just get a good director who has a love for the character and it'll work. Snyder failed by trying to "Batmanize" Superman.
 
Just get a good director who has a love for the character and it'll work.

Pretty much.
or at least get someone who can learn to apperciate the character.

Didn't Whedon not like, or at the least he didn't know how to write, Banner/Hulk in Avengers? But he powered through and I assume did his research and created a very good version of the character.
 
Yeah that's what I thought your point was
and as I was saying or at least trying to was that I don't think that how Marvel approached Cap is necessarily going to work for Superman.

There are some lessons to be learned though

But Cap kills, in fact in the first one he is killing with guns. Plus you have to say that Marvel don't have any serious stakes in their movies so they do dance around potential issues that could push their character. MoS went straight for the jugular and put Superman in an impossible position. What if Marvel puts Cap in a position where killing Tony Stark is the only way out? They'd never do it because they aren't willing to go there.
 
But Cap kills, in fact in the first one he is killing with guns. Plus you have to say that Marvel don't have any serious stakes in their movies so they do dance around potential issues that could push their character. MoS went straight for the jugular and put Superman in an impossible position. What if Marvel puts Cap in a position where killing Tony Stark is the only way out? They'd never do it because they aren't willing to go there.

Maybe that's because, oh I don't know, the characters are both good guys?

Why the hell would you want to write a script where one of your heroes has no choice other than to murder the other one? You'd almost have to change the characters completely just to try and justify it, and make it sound plausible.

...hmmm.

Sounds familiar.
 
^Superman has made plenty of money... That his 'begins' made more than batmans and cap's says plenty on the matter of comparison. Superman's issue is that he can't just make money like the rest can just make money.

I do people keep forgeting marketing and budget! MOS was budgeted at 230M and marketed like crazy, while both TFA and BB had a modest budget of 150M
 
Yet, they can make perfectly good Captain America movies.

I should clear things up

1. WB is nowhere as competent as Marvel, not without Nolan, so it's hard for them to accomplish what Marvel did

2. Sure Superman might have some characteristics and personality traits common with Captain America which might seem boring, but what seperates Cap is that he is human, thus he is relatable, while Superman is a defacto God! He has ridiculous powers (Laser sights! Ice breaths!), he is NOT relatable, and his kryptonite weakness is just too childish. I know these are all in the comic book mythology but it doesn't work in the modern era

3. I stand by my statement that we are not gonna see a solo Superman movie for atleast another decade, he is toxic now, if he wasn't already. This phenomenon is not exclusive to Supes, happened with Batman after B&R, and with Spider-man (despite Sony trying to revive him again and again)
 
But Cap kills, in fact in the first one he is killing with guns. Plus you have to say that Marvel don't have any serious stakes in their movies so they do dance around potential issues that could push their character. MoS went straight for the jugular and put Superman in an impossible position. What if Marvel puts Cap in a position where killing Tony Stark is the only way out? They'd never do it because they aren't willing to go there.

what you said had nothing to do with what I posted. Read my post.
2. Sure Superman might have some characteristics and personality traits common with Captain America which might seem boring, but what seperates Cap is that he is human, thus he is relatable, while Superman is a defacto God! He has ridiculous powers (Laser sights! Ice breaths!), he is NOT relatable, and his kryptonite weakness is just too childish. I know these are all in the comic book mythology but it doesn't work in the modern era
Relatability doesn't mean a damn thing.

No one really goes: "I don't like the character because I can't relate to him" other than critics

Wish fulfillment, having a good personality and being compelling>>>>>>>>>relatibility.

Relatibility has always been the stupidest criticism.
 
the characters does not have to be relatable. people loves The Joker or Hannibal but who can relate to them really.
just make them interesting, that should be enough to entrigue the audience.
 
Not even just villains but look at heroes too.
There's a hero that who was born in the 1800s, grew claws at around 13, ages slowly, can heal himself from almost any injury, got experimented on, fought in 3 major wars, got metal claws, watched women he loved die...and he's one of the most popular characters.

How is he relatable?

The whole relatability argument is paper thin
 
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I am sure there are exceptions, but when it comes to heroes, I don't think it is important to be able to relate to them, but for the most part, I think it is important to be able to understand them, see where they are coming from and what motivates them, so that you can get behind them and root for them. Batman Begins did this so much better than MOS IMO, and that is a big reason that so many people considerate it to be the best superhero origin story IMO.
 
Maybe that's because, oh I don't know, the characters are both good guys?

Why the hell would you want to write a script where one of your heroes has no choice other than to murder the other one? You'd almost have to change the characters completely just to try and justify it, and make it sound plausible.

...hmmm.

Sounds familiar.
No you wouldn't be changing the character at all, you'd be challenging them. Governments make these decisions all the time where there will be losers, and sometimes lives lost. I think all the movies should be pushing those situations and I applaud Snyder and his team for doing that thereby enhancing the characters and making them far more compelling than previously presented on screen at least. We should all be encouraging this sort of film making and not go all internet on these guys.
 
Not even just villains but look at heroes too.
There's a hero that who was born in the 1800s, grew claws at around 13, ages slowly, can heal himself from almost any injury, got experimented on, fought in 3 major wars, got metal claws, watched women he loved die...and he's one of the most popular characters.

How is he relatable?

The whole relatability argument is paper thin

He is beatable, he is not a God, he does not have deus ex machina like powers
 
He is beatable, he is not a God, he does not have deus ex machina like powers

Superman is just as beatable as Wolverine. Even without Kryptonite. It's not like every supervillain Supes faces he swaps them away with one hit. There are a good number of villains who, in theory, can defeat Superman. The movies have only used Zod though

And come on, everyone knows at the end that the hero is going to win so the whole "he is beatable" thing is silly too.

If really the whole idea is (insert character) is relatable because he can get beaten then that's still a flimsy argument. AS I said, little to no one is coming out the movie like "Man Superman can't be beat. He's unrelatable. He's not a good character"
 
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what you said had nothing to do with what I posted. Read my post.

Relatability doesn't mean a damn thing.

No one really goes: "I don't like the character because I can't relate to him" other than critics

Wish fulfillment, having a good personality and being compelling>>>>>>>>>relatibility.

Relatibility has always been the stupidest criticism.

Relatability is always under the surface, kids like Spidey because many of them are nerds, bullied in school, had a crush on an seemingly unattainable beautiful girl, money troubles. They relate to Batman due to his fighting style, detective skills, cool gadgets that they want to have, they like Iron Man because he is the tech wizard and genius we all dream to be, they like Deadpool because of his jokster attitude

Meanwhile, Superman, God with deus ex machina like powers (laser sights, ice, X-ray vision) I mean just look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhuman_features_and_abilities_in_fiction
He is way way way more powerful than any humans can ever dream of, and his only weakness is a rock!

What makes characters relatable are their weaknesses, Spidey's money troubles, Batman's orphan past, Iron Man being a mortal human, Wolverine's past of losing everyone he loves and the curse to live forever. Superman has no weaknesses

There must be a reason that no Superman movie seems to be working for the past 25 odd years, we don't see Superman games, cartoons, animated series that often, even his comics don't sell that well anymore
 
Relatability is always under the surface, kids like Spidey because many of them are nerds, bullied in school, had a crush on an seemingly unattainable beautiful girl, money troubles. They relate to Batman due to his fighting style, detective skills, cool gadgets that they want to have, they like Iron Man because he is the tech wizard and genius we all dream to be, they like Deadpool because of his jokster attitude

Meanwhile, Superman, God with deus ex machina like powers (laser sights, ice, X-ray vision) I mean just look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhuman_features_and_abilities_in_fiction
He is way way way more powerful than any humans can ever dream of, and his only weakness is a rock!

What makes characters relatable are their weaknesses, Spidey's money troubles, Batman's orphan past, Iron Man being a mortal human, Wolverine's past of losing everyone he loves and the curse to live forever. Superman has no weaknesses

There must be a reason that no Superman movie seems to be working for the past 25 odd years, we don't see Superman games, cartoons, animated series that often, even his comics don't sell that well anymore



I don't think you know what being relatable means.
 
If really the whole idea is (insert character) is relatable because he can get beaten then that's still a flimsy argument. AS I said, little to no one is coming out the movie like "Man Superman can't be beat. He's unrelatable. He's not a good character"

IMO the one thing that made Superman relatable was that he is an outsider, a loner trying hard to fit in, something we all feel sometime or the other, and I give credit to Goyer to try to use that aspect in MOS, but Snyder underplayed and half-arsed that part and shat all over it
 
Superman is/can be just as relatable as Spider-Man, but as I said it doesn't matter.

Part of what you said in an earlier post doesnt even have to do with relatability it has to do with wish fulfillment
 
Maybe that's because, oh I don't know, the characters are both good guys?

Why the hell would you want to write a script where one of your heroes has no choice other than to murder the other one? You'd almost have to change the characters completely just to try and justify it, and make it sound plausible.

...hmmm.

Sounds familiar.

:funny:

Yeah his argument makes no absolute sense and has nothing to do with what's being discussed here. Snyders obsession with decontructing characters ruined Batman and Superman. He never did anything else with the idea beyond it was "cool" and because "mythology".
 
No you wouldn't be changing the character at all, you'd be challenging them. Governments make these decisions all the time where there will be losers, and sometimes lives lost. I think all the movies should be pushing those situations and I applaud Snyder and his team for doing that thereby enhancing the characters and making them far more compelling than previously presented on screen at least. We should all be encouraging this sort of film making and not go all internet on these guys.

I'd rather films challenged how characters deal with situations using their core personalities, rather than arbitrarily changing them to force conflict. How about a script that has the classic superman presented with an ethical or moral dilemma? How about a script that challenges Batman's no kill rule, rather that throwing it out of the window?
 
Relatability is always under the surface, kids like Spidey because many of them are nerds, bullied in school, had a crush on an seemingly unattainable beautiful girl, money troubles. They relate to Batman due to his fighting style, detective skills, cool gadgets that they want to have, they like Iron Man because he is the tech wizard and genius we all dream to be, they like Deadpool because of his jokster attitude

Meanwhile, Superman, God with deus ex machina like powers (laser sights, ice, X-ray vision) I mean just look at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superhuman_features_and_abilities_in_fiction
He is way way way more powerful than any humans can ever dream of, and his only weakness is a rock!

What makes characters relatable are their weaknesses, Spidey's money troubles, Batman's orphan past, Iron Man being a mortal human, Wolverine's past of losing everyone he loves and the curse to live forever. Superman has no weaknesses

There must be a reason that no Superman movie seems to be working for the past 25 odd years, we don't see Superman games, cartoons, animated series that often, even his comics don't sell that well anymore

You've picked bizarre examples here.

Reliability isn't really about having weaknesses, it's not about saying "Oh, he's just like me and doing what I'd do". It's about creating an interesting and consistent character-- It's about understanding why they'd do what they do, even if it's not what you'd do.

Re: Weaknesses and deus ex machina... That's all superheroes. That's practically all fictional characters. First of all, Kryptonite is far from the only thing that can beat Superman. Many, many supervillains (and heroes) have gone toe-to-toe with him over the decades and come out on top, or nearly so. Whether using weapons, traps, or their fists. It happens... exactly the same as every other hero. Hell, he was once beaten to death. "But he came back to life!" you say? Well, so have many, maaanny other superheroes. Also, how is Wolverine's "I can heal from anything in seconds and practically live forever" somehow MORE relatable? Or Iron Man's intellect? Batman's brain and skills and background? Any of it?

And before you or anyone else says "But, even then, you always know Superman's going to win in the end!"... Are you really sitting there with stories about Batman, Spidey, Iron man, Wolverine, James Bond or Sherlock Holmes, Captain Kirk or Luke Skywalker, or John McClane (the ultimate every man, for many) and thinking "Oh wow, I think he's actually going to lose and die, and the Earth's going to blow up, and that'll be the end of the series!"

Superman has the DP Clark Kent persona-- That's the "relatable" in the sense that you and others espouse is so important. That's the side that has to behave like an invisible coward (compared to Supes), is lovesick for Lois and pines for her, is occasionally seen as an easy target by Lombard and others, needs to do his job or get chewed out by his boss etc. And even as the ultra-powerful Silver Age or All-Star Supes, THAT side of him grapples with complex emotional issues, to-- How to best go about saving the world, wondering about Krypton and the parents he never knew, dealing the problems he has so far failed with (restoring Kandor, rehabilitating Luthor) etc. Yet... even through all that... Even though he may question how to go about certain things sometimes... He absolutely believes in the fundamental good of himself and most everyone else. Honestly, more than any other (mistakenly) perceived lack of physical weaknesses... I think that's what a lot of the characters critic's have a problem with-- That morally, he's kinder and better than we'll ever be (even though he does get angry and sad on occasion). Personally, that's what he always should be. That's just on of the core reasons he's always been and always will be such a brilliant character... He's someone to aspire to.

All the most successful, acclaimed versions of the character over his near 80 year history of being one of the biggest fictional icons in the world ("Oh, people just don't like him" my ass) are the ones that EMBRACE all that with open arms-- From George Reeves to Chris Reeve, Silver and Bronze Age Supes, All-Star and Secret Identity, Kingdom Come and Red Son (stories about him reaffirming that side of himself)... They're all kind to a fault, all unapologetically good either all the way through or by the end.

Those that aren't on board with that, who don't get it... Well, you end up with what we're getting right damn now-- a disappointment.
 
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I'd rather films challenged how characters deal with situations using their core personalities, rather than arbitrarily changing them to force conflict. How about a script that has the classic superman presented with an ethical or moral dilemma? How about a script that challenges Batman's no kill rule, rather that throwing it out of the window?

^this
 
You've picked bizarre examples here.

Reliability isn't really about having weaknesses, it's not about saying "Oh, he's just like me and doing what I'd do". It's about creating an interesting and consistent character-- It's about understanding why they'd do what they do, even if it's not what you'd do.

Re: Weaknesses and deus ex machina... That's all superheroes. That's practically all fictional characters. First of all, Kryptonite is far from the only thing that can beat Superman. Many, many supervillains (and heroes) have gone toe-to-toe with him over the decades and come out on top, or nearly so. Whether using weapons, traps, or their fists. It happens... exactly the same as every other hero. Hell, he was once beaten to death. "But he came back to life!" you say? Well, so have many, maaanny other superheroes. Also, how is Wolverine's "I can heal from anything in seconds and practically live forever" somehow MORE relatable? Or Iron Man's intellect? Batman's brain and skills and background? Any of it?

And before you or anyone else says "But, even then, you always know Superman's going to win in the end!"... Are you really sitting there with stories about Batman, Spidey, Iron man, Wolverine, James Bond or Sherlock Holmes, Captain Kirk or Luke Skywalker, or John McClane (the ultimate every man, for many) and thinking "Oh wow, I think he's actually going to lose and die, and the Earth's going to blow up, and that'll be the end of the series!"
Hmmm.. you do make some good points
But I think it's safe to say the extent of Superman powers make it very hard to write an interesting script about him, it's not a coincidence that Marvel severely depowered Thor and Jessica Jones to make them interesting

Superman has the DP Clark Kent persona-- That's the "relatable" in the sense that you and others espouse is so important. That's the side that has to behave like an invisible coward (compared to Supes), is lovesick for Lois and pines for her, is occasionally seen as an easy target by Lombard and others, needs to do his job or get chewed out by his boss etc.

IMO that's the biggest mistake Snyder made, he didn't develop the Clark Kent persona, not at all!, sometimes you even forget that Clark Kent exists, also his identity being known to Lois Lane so early was a mistake
 
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