Batman Vs. Superman Who Would Win

[ShadowBoxing]

well i dont see you making ANY valid points, only bashing other people who are

Okay. If we're talking about the movies, Batman in the movies is no where near as smart as he is in the comics. In fact he only seems to possess slightly above average intelligence. So even if we were to go back on that old tired prep time argument which makes no sense to begin with, this Batman is no where near smart enough to come up with contingency plans intricate enough to dispose of a being as powerful as Superman was in SR.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

alright to be fair in a hand to hand fight superman would turn batman into guano, BUT his powers are dependent upon too many factors...

1. he was lucky enough to land on a planet where the gravity was low enough to make him superficially strong

2. he requires the sun to charge his abilities

3. if everything else goes right he still has to worry if there is any kryptonite around, which unfortunately batman was given willingly

batman perhaps is well aware of all these factors and how they contribute to his strength so he would easily orchistrate a fight in which he would get the most advantage, and if superman gets too close he has a little chunk of kryptonite to finish him off.

Superman can still move faster than Batman can think or react. And Batman himself has stated he could never beat the man of steel, merely keep himself alive.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

that's debatable. IMHO Bruce is smarter than Lex, its just that Lex has absolutely no morals that doesnt hesitate to use whatever means to achieve his objectives. Bruce still has a conscience. there will always be something that will keep him from crossing over the dark side.

Not anymore. 52 listed the top ten in one of their "history of the Universe" backstories. Well according to DCU the top three smartest individuals are Lex Luthor, Ray Palmer, and Mr Terrific. T.O.Morrow, Dr Sivana, and Gorrilla Grodd also made the list I think...

Batman is a jack of all trades, but he masters none. For those of you still fan ******* over him in this thread, understand...

Conner Hawke, Lady Siva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, and Deathstroke are all better at hand to hand combat.

Deathstroke, Connor Hawke and Hawkman are all better military strategists.

Connor Hawk, Oliver Queen, Deathstroke have better aim.

Nightwing far surpasses him in arcobatics.

Elongated Man "was" a better detective...and Bruce himself admits Tim Drake will outdo him in a few years.

Vril Drox, Lex Luthor, Ray Palmer, Michael Holt and most likely Dr Sivana, Gorrilla Grodd, T.O.Morrow are exponentally smarter than Bruce.

Bruce is not the best. Nor was this ever the case in the DCU.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Superman is a god! Batman is toast in less than a second. It is just a fact!

 

[tomorrel]

"Batman is one of the world's greatest scientists, criminologists, and tacticians, as well as a master of disguise, often gathering information under the identity of Matches Malone. He is regarded as one of the DC Universe's greatest detectives. Rather than simply outfighting his opponents, Batman often uses cunning and planning to outwit them. In Grant Morrison's first storyline in JLA, Superman describes Batman as "the most dangerous man on Earth," able to defeat a team of superpowered aliens all by himself in order to rescue his imprisoned teammates"

just a little quote from wiki for ya

 

[tomorrel]

Not anymore. 52 listed the top ten in one of their "history of the Universe" backstories. Well according to DCU the top three smartest individuals are Lex Luthor, Ray Palmer, and Mr Terrific. T.O.Morrow, Dr Sivana, and Gorrilla Grodd also made the list I think...

Batman is a jack of all trades, but he masters none. For those of you still fan ******* over him in this thread, understand...

Conner Hawke, Lady Siva, Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger, and Deathstroke are all better at hand to hand combat.

Deathstroke, Connor Hawke and Hawkman are all better military strategists.

Connor Hawk, Oliver Queen, Deathstroke have better aim.

Nightwing far surpasses him in arcobatics.

Elongated Man "was" a better detective...and Bruce himself admits Tim Drake will outdo him in a few years.

Vril Drox, Lex Luthor, Ray Palmer, Michael Holt and most likely Dr Sivana, Gorrilla Grodd, T.O.Morrow are exponentally smarter than Bruce.

Bruce is not the best. Nor was this ever the case in the DCU.

lady shiva and richard dragon are specialty martial artists, thats all they do, same with oliver queen he trained specifically for shooting arrows.secondly bruce learned ninjustsu from master kirigi if you recall, ninjutsu is specifically design to AVOID physical contact only as a last resort, and use stealth more primarily. conner hawke just knows run of the mill martial arts. deathstroke posseses enhanced abilities anyway, including a regenerative power. and if you will notice vril dox and grodd are technically not human, thus not counting, oh and direct quote again "Holt describes himself as the third smartest man on Earth" third thats right. lex is an inventor not possesing conventional brilliance, only conveyed in machines designed to destroy a certain alien.... and none have worked yet, yeah a real einstein. sivana is also a corrupt brilliance whom again has failed at his life's work, killing cap marvel. maybe you should do alittle research before name dropping pal, never argue with a nerd.

 

[tomorrel]

of coourse if you want to go chronologically bruce is in fact the first martial artist in the DCU, vastly more brilliant than supes will ever hope to be and has defeated an impressive rogues gallery thhat would put the flash to shame. oh and elongated man "Elongated Man is professionally trained as a detective and is highly skilled in deductive reasoning. Often considered one of the most brilliant detectives in the DC Universe (on par with Batman only differing in the actual course of their logic)" and dick and tim are trained by the master to be his succesors,of course they would be better at some things, but not the best.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

lady shiva and richard dragon are specialty martial artists, thats all they do, same with oliver queen he trained specifically for shooting arrows.secondly bruce learned ninjustsu from master kirigi if you recall, ninjutsu is specifically design to AVOID physical contact only as a last resort, and use stealth more primarily.

I really think you need to read more of these characters. Siva has beaten Bruce twice.

And comics misrepresent ninjutsu. So what it is in the real world has no bearing.

conner hawke just knows run of the mill martial arts.

LOL Read comics much? Conner Hawke fought Richard Dragon to a standstill. Stalemated Lady Siva, and has learned to mimmick and rapidly learn the fighting styles of others. Chuck Dixon set down that Conner Hawke was potentially the best hand-to-hand combatant in the DCU.

deathstroke posseses enhanced abilities anyway, including a regenerative power.

Great, he is still better than Bruce at hand to hand and tactics. Potentially smarter too.

and if you will notice vril dox and grodd are technically not human, thus not counting

Grodd is a mortal being. And I said Vril Drox was not human, and technically not included on the list.

oh and direct quote again "Holt describes himself as the third smartest man on Earth" third thats right.

That's right. Holt describes himself that way. He is actually being modest. The Official List given in an issue of 52 placed him at number 2, right behind Lex Luthor.

During the JLA's "Obisidian Age", Batman more or less acknowledges that Mr Terrific is smarter than him when he basically stole the design of the T-Spheres to use as a summons device for the new JLA.

lex is an inventor not possesing conventional brilliance, only conveyed in machines designed to destroy a certain alien.... and none have worked yet, yeah a real einstein.

Lex is an inventor yes, also a businessman, President, mastermind, and pretty much controls the DCU from his fingertips. And Lex Luthor pretty much gave up the mad scientist bit decades ago. As for making machines that fail to destroy Superman...yeah the DCU is really gonna perminently kill Superman . Also Superman is not stupid, nor is he ******ed compared to Bruce. In fact they are probably not that far apart, considering Superman knows a lot more about the Universe ultimately than Bruce can ever hope to know. Lex is still stated as the smartest DCU character, Batman isn't even in his league, get over it.

I hope you realize...nerd that Superman understands microtechnology, knows every human langauge, is a genius in genetics, robotics and has a speed learning ability similar to Bart Allen's.

I hope you also realize that Superman: Birthright, which is now official canon, retooled Lex even more. He was designing wormhole tech at age 15. In addition he reverse engineered Kryptonian tech from "snapshots" of the planet...not from the tech itself...from pictures of it. And Superman himself, in reference to your Einstien comment, say that the comparison between him and Einstien "is seriously underestimating him".

sivana is also a corrupt brilliance whom again has failed at his life's work, killing cap marvel.

Reed Richards still, after all these years cannot cure Grimm, Banner, or find a way to defeat Dr Doom and several other recurring villains. Is he somehow not smart? How about Batman. He is so smart, yet cannot manage to create some sort of way to keep his adversaries in arkham once they get there? All your touching upon is the natural logical inconsistencies that come with writing a serialized comic strip.

maybe you should do alittle research before name dropping pal, never argue with a nerd.

Research? You've obviously never read a comic in your life...I have 15 long boxes...dude.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

"Batman is one of the world's greatest scientists, criminologists, and tacticians, as well as a master of disguise,

One of does not mean the best. It could still place him in the top fifty for all we know.

just a little quote from wiki for ya

Wiki isn't DC last time I checked.

And aside from being an unregulated, fan editted site. I'd ask. What advancements has Bruce made, exactly. T.O.Morrow created the artificial human soul. Palmer discovered the Palmer verse. Mr Terrific created the T-Spheres. John Henry Irons created tech even Batman states is far superior to his own (in addition to beating him in the pages of JLA). Professor Haley understands Hypertime. Magnus created the Metal Men. Luthor created incredibly tech rivaling Iron's and apparent can decipher and reverse engineer virtually all alien tech....you know in addition to becoming President and avoiding arrest after Infinite Crisis. And what has Batman created? Really effective smoke bombs. A spy satillite that gets hacked and causes a crisis. On top of this, unlike the men I listed, Batman hasn't shown the ability to crack the dimensional barrier on his own. He' smart. But he isn't that smart dude.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

of coourse if you want to go chronologically bruce is in fact the first martial artist in the DCU

And Superman is the first "superhero", doesn't make him stronger or better than Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock or full powered Ion though.

Also Bruce, during his conception was not a "martial artist". He studied western fighting styles, like Boxing and wrestling. He is shown once, early on, teaching Robin a throw from jui jitsu, but that was one of the few Golden Age moments he is ever shown practicing martial arts. However, he didn't have any black belts so far as was indicated, and no where was he referred to as a ninja, martial artist or otherwise. We were in a war with the country noted for those fighting practices, and probably was unlikely the very nationalist country (which essentially used comics as propoganda) would push a "martial arts" character.

Simply put, Bruce wasn't intended to be a martial artist. That change came when the slew of martial artist characters began popping up in the pages of DC. "The Man Who Falls" and "Batman:Year One" are the first retellings to fully solidify martial arts as part of his background. Bruce is also a computer hacker nowadays, I truly doubt that makes him the first hacker character in comics.

vastly more brilliant than supes will ever hope to be

Not really. Superman is quite brillant. In fact he is said to have "super" intelligence, aided largely by the fact that, like Bart Allen he has near photographic memory and absorbs knowledge at a super fast rate.

and has defeated an impressive rogues gallery thhat would put the flash to shame.

How so? Most of Batman's villains are normal humans who hate society. Not incredibly impressive if you ask me. Sure they are all well written and conceived very well as characters. But to claim they put the Flash to shame. Lets just say Mirror Master, Professor Zoom, and the Weather Wizard wouldn't exactly be bothered to much by Joker, Two Face and the Riddler.

And if we want to go the rogue's gallery route, Superman easily has among the most powerful to date. Darkseid, Mongul, Brainiac, the Eradicator, Parasite, Metallo, and Lex Luthor pretty much put the Bat Rogues to shame. They are like ants to those guys.

oh and elongated man "Elongated Man is professionally trained as a detective and is highly skilled in deductive reasoning. Often considered one of the most brilliant detectives in the DC Universe (on par with Batman only differing in the actual course of their logic)"

I really hope you realize Wikipedia is not, nor ever was a valid resource for proving comic canon.

and dick and tim are trained by the master to be his succesors,of course they would be better at some things, but not the best.

It's been postulated that Dick's agility borders on meta human levels. However to claim Batman trained Dick and Tim fully and therefore they cannot be the best is absolutely false. First of all Batman is not the best, at anything in the DCU, aside from being Batman. No one else has been a better Batman, congrats. However that list was showing you that Batman never mastered any talent to the point where he is considered the best at it. His IQ is 185 (highest recorded on our Earth is 216), so therefore he sure as hell ain't the smartest. His fighting level is a 12...that list goes up to 20 BTW. And the Official DC RPG back in the 1980s didn't have him topping out any list. It's been cut and dry for a while, Batman is among the best non metas, but he is far from the best.

Second, Dick, Tim and most of Batman's partners all sought outside training. Dick, of course, being an acrobat from a young age. Tim went on his own personal journey through the world of martial arts. Cassandra Cain had about 5 teachers before Bruce, and is a better hand to hand combatant. Sometimes these characters are underwritten, especially when the comic is tentative about they upstaging Batman. However officially there is nothing from stopping any of these characters from surpassing their "master", in fact some already have.

 

[tomorrel]

fine fine i concede, its pointless to continue if we keep on arguing and keep drawing on more points, even though i truly beleive batman would win and i have no less respect for superman lets just agree to disagree, thank you for the counterpoints it was a very fun argument.

 

[tomorrel]

... but i must inquire if superman is so powerful why is there even a debate whether or not he could beat batman?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

... but i must inquire if superman is so powerful why is there even a debate whether or not he could beat batman?

There is a debate over whether Spider-Man can or cannot beat DareDevil or the Incredible Hulk. It doesn't have to make sense.

But Batman "beat" (not really) Superman in the elseworld entitled "The Dark Knight Returns", so ever since Frank Miller wrote that story people insist Batman is capable of beating Superman despite the fact it's never happened in the mainstream and in fact Superman has handed Batman his Bat-ass on many occasions. I mean Batman does carry a Krpytonite ring, yes...but Lex Luthor: Man of Steel showed that little trinket as pretty useless if Superman truly wanted to beat him.

 

[tomorrel]

well then there ya go! Batman CAN beat superman

 

[DieSmiling]

... but i must inquire if superman is so powerful why is there even a debate whether or not he could beat batman?

Because Batman is so much cooler that Batfans will always vote that he would win.

I still say if he had time to prepare Batman makes Supes look like a fool.

 

[tomorrel]

just as well most of the people mentioned above have never faced superman, batman has...

-we already know that bats beat the alien in dark knight returns but allowed himself to have a heart attack to prove to the people whom were controlling supes that he could do it

-in hush Batman got exactly what he wanted to out of the situation - to keep Superman occupied for as long as was necessary. Yes, Superman at time proved difficult, but it went almost exactly the way Batman both predicted and wanted it to. Result: Draw

-now lets not forget that all supermans powers are dependent upon certain circumstances like the sun, the planet, and the presence of kryptonite, and whether he is willing to kill his foe. bats keeps everything he needs with him at all times, if need be he can call for backup from nightwing, robin, even alfred can operate the vehicles. also superman has often been beaten to near death, anyone remember doomsday, no how about darkseid. batman has often been severly injured but perhaps his worst was only when his back was broken by bane, if anyone can recall him near death on any instance please tell me. also supes seems incredibly vulnerable to mind control in addition to magic, in fact this is often the basis of their fights.

-also when would a career superhero and journalist have time to learn about genetics, various languages, and applied sciences and i have never heard any canon mention of his super-reading powers so hows about you quote an issue for me, his "super-intelligence" has been out of canon for a while now, i guess wiki is good for something eh, and lex may be alot of things but he has still failed at his self accalimed lifes work, killing supes. again he is not very intelligent. oh and about superman rogues gallery, most all of the better villans have in fact managed to give supes the fight of his life, and darkseid failed to kill the combined force of batmite and the joker in the Superman/Batman arc "With a Vengence".

-oh and any reference to terrific being smarter than bats wouldnt count anyway even though he already references himself as third smartest, if you will remember batman, superman, and wonderman are retired and therefore have unavailable stats to the rest of the DCU. on and i think wiki does have DC try here www.dcdatabaseproject.com, a wikipedia website for dc history. checkmate

 

[Tempest19]

THE DARK KNIGHT. HE DOESN'T PLAY BY THE RULE BOOK.

"You feeling lucky Supes? Huh, are yah?... Make my day."

 

[tomorrel]

anyway how brilliant is lex if he cant even figure out that superman has a secret identity, much less who it is?!

 

[Hush]

I like Batman alot and i only look to HUSH for the true prediction of this fight.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

anyway how brilliant is lex if he cant even figure out that superman has a secret identity, much less who it is?!

As the page you posted suggests. It's not Lex intelligence that prevents him from knowing who Superman is, because in fact he is well aware Clark is Superman. It is his arrogance, he refuses to believe a man with such power would debase himself to being a mere human. See him struggling there saying "No Man with that power would ever pretend to be a mere human"

This is much like Batman actually. Riddler is well aware Batman is Bruce Wayne (as is Joker). But as Batman put it "what good is a Riddle everyone knows the answer to". To the Riddle acknowledging this fact is contrary to his being. Lex Luthor won't acknowledge Clark is Superman. Why? Because Lex has spent his life creating an image of power and prominence, and then when he meets someone with real power he chooses a life of meek simplicity. Pretty interesting literary device if you ask me.

I also hope you realize Man of Steel is officially out of Canon. Replaced by Birthright, which actually is going to be replaced by some Smallville esque retelling sometime in the near future.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

well then there ya go! Batman CAN beat superman

Dark Knight is an "elseworld", therefore not part of DC canon. Much like Year 1 Million or All Star wouldn't be a proper judge of Superman's power. It's like saying DareDevil can acquire telepathy because you read that in a What If once (which did happen).

 

[ShadowBoxing]

just as well most of the people mentioned above have never faced superman, batman has...

-we already know that bats beat the alien in dark knight returns but allowed himself to have a heart attack to prove to the people whom were controlling supes that he could do it

In a non-canon elseworld about Batman.

Let me illustrate why this is wrong. Superman has an elseworld where he goes rogue. Everyone, with the exception of Lex Luthor and a few others, is dead. Is this somehow justification for him being the best superhero?

-in hush Batman got exactly what he wanted to out of the situation - to keep Superman occupied for as long as was necessary. Yes, Superman at time proved difficult, but it went almost exactly the way Batman both predicted and wanted it to. Result: Draw

No, draws are when you stalemate an opponent, Batman did no such thing. He just kept himself alive long enough to save Catwoman.

-now lets not forget that all supermans powers are dependent upon certain circumstances like the sun, the planet, and the presence of kryptonite, and whether he is willing to kill his foe.

Superman can function at nightime. Unless Batman knows how to turn a Sun red or destroy ours, that isn't much help to him. Also the presence of Krpytonite doesn't do much unless Superman gets within range, which he didn't do the last two times he bludgeoned Batman to a pulp.

bats keeps everything he needs with him at all times

No he doesn't. That's a myth perpetrated by fanboys. He didn't have Krpytonite with him on the Watchtower when Superman almost killed him. Furthermore, even with the led lined holster in his ultility belt carrying Kryptonite all the time would give him terminal cancer pretty quickly. Much like it did to Lex Luthor.

if need be he can call for backup from nightwing, robin, even alfred can operate the vehicles.

Unless they can get there faster than the speed of light, backup doesn't help him much. And Nightwing, Robin and a whole convoy of Batmobiles are gnats to someone whose strength starts out at about 140,000 tons.

also superman has often been beaten to near death, anyone remember doomsday, no how about darkseid.

Doomsday bled Krpytonite, among other things. And Darkseid is A GOD, Batman doesn't even hold a candle to Darkseid. And Superman has beaten both opponents far more often than they have beaten him. In fact usually Superman never loses, which is why Death Of Superman was such a big seller.

batman has often been severly injured but perhaps his worst was only when his back was broken by bane, if anyone can recall him near death on any instance please tell me.

Joker, Two Face, Killer Croc, Deathstroke, Lady Siva, Ra's Al Ghul and most of Batman's rogues have beaten him within inches of his life at some point or another....oh and Superman did it too, whatdayaknow. In fact this is the case with all heroes just about. There aren't many in existence who's rogues haven't beaten them to within inches of their life at some point or another.

also supes seems incredibly vulnerable to mind control in addition to magic, in fact this is often the basis of their fights.

Batman refuses to use magic, he opennly doesn't trust it.

also when would a career superhero and journalist have time to learn about genetics, various languages, and applied sciences

When he can do things at Superspeed. Remember Superman can function at speeds approaching light speed.

Also, In the real world it would be impossible to know all the Batman knows and do all he does and still sleep, eat, breath, and make money. IM-PO-SS-IBLE. Suspension of disbelief is big in comics. Lex Luthor couldn't possibly build wormhole tech at 15, or reverse engineer alien technology from photographs. There is no way Barbara Gordon could possess the Total Recall that she has. And frankly not even a Nightwing could exist on our Earth. The logistics of becoming a costumed crime fighter are mind boggling. And while I wish to avoid this discussion here (but you're welcome to start a new thread), real life Superheroism as shown in the comics is Impossible. There is no way someone could train enough and devote enough time to take on crime, without guns, and be that successful at it without getting shot and killed rather quickly.

In fact Batman is harder to swallow, in reality, than Superman is. Because Superman's conditions are such that is powers make up for some of the natural logical inconsistencies.

and i have never heard any canon mention of his super-reading powers so hows about you quote an issue for me, his "super-intelligence" has been out of canon for a while now

His Superintelligence, maybe (I was using a turn of phrase BTW)....but his super reading, and speed learning abilities still exist. Who exactly do you think built the Superman robot who killed Donna Troy, exactly? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_robots
Maybe you should read MORE wikipedia articles, and comics...but really you should read the comics. It's apparent you don't.

i guess wiki is good for something eh, and lex may be alot of things but he has still failed at his self accalimed lifes work, killing supes.

Is Reed Richards' not smart, he cannot cure Ben Grimm? NATURAL.LOGICAL.INCONSISTENCIES. Villains can't perma-kill their adversaries, nor vice versa. Why, honestly, hasn't Gotham given Joker the chair? Really, are the politicians and law enforcement agencies that stupid...seriously? No, they don't appear to be. But we take it. Why? Because you would bawl your eyes out if they ever killed Joker.

And everyone in comics fails their life's work dude. Completion of that would mean the end of the series. Batman fails to wipe crime out of Gotham (arguably he creates more). Flash cannot stop his rogues. Green Lantern's sector is far from secure. Comics ultimately need to continue their main staple characters to exist, therefore they can never close a story in the way you are suggesting.

again he is not very intelligent.

People who create wormhole tech at age 15 and can reverse engineer all alien technology, start multibillion dollars business, engineer their parents deaths at 15, build suits capable of going toe to toe with Superman, and can keep pace with Brainiac 5 must be dumb as blocks

oh and about superman rogues gallery, most all of the better villans have in fact managed to give supes the fight of his life, and darkseid failed to kill the combined force of batmite and the joker in the Superman/Batman arc "With a Vengence".

That's probably because they are super powerful. And actually that's not true either, only Darkseid and Doomsday manage to give Superman a ton of trouble.

The combined forces of Bat-Mite and Joker...no no. Superman, Batman and Mxyzptlk and several alternate reality versions of the characters as well. However I hope you realize that was mostly tongue and cheak.

oh and any reference to terrific being smarter than bats wouldnt count anyway even though he already references himself as third smartest, if you will remember batman, superman, and wonderman are retired and therefore have unavailable stats to the rest of the DCU

He said that during Infinite Crisis, they weren't retired yet. And the DCU has since admitted the claim was a modest one. Also DC always have stats available on it's heroes. Ever heard of Cadamus, project OMAC, Maxwell Lord, the Monitors. They'd be able to tell you the score no matter who was where.

And ummm as for available stats...you realize this isn't the real world. If DC wishes to publish official lists, they can. It's their characters, not yours.

on and i think wiki does have DC try here.www.dcdatabaseproject.com, a wikipedia website for dc history.

Fan editted.

Here look.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Superman_robots&action=edit&section=3

You can put the words "Superman is a poopy head" in there and it'll post it.

You don't play chess much I take it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Because Batman is so much cooler that Batfans will always vote that he would win.

I still say if he had time to prepare Batman makes Supes look like a fool.

Superman decides when Batman beats him or better put...survives, even Batman admits as much...saying, "if he really wanted to he could kill me".

 

[terry78]

Superman would never do that though. He's never physically assualted Luthor except when he's in the suit. It's the same reason why you as a guy shouldn't hit a little kid or some smaller woman. You know the damage you COULD do, but you won't do it.

 

[Hush]

I hate to bring it up but there was that time during Sacrifice that Superman beat the snot out of Batman and that was when superman wasnt holding back and Batman DIDNT die, it could be that the Superman of today is not as powerful as you say Shadowboxer, just trying to give my side a fighting chance here. Not trying to attack you.