Batman's fighting style

[Chris Wallace]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?

 

[Qoèlet]

If Batman needed to physically act in accordance with physics and logic, he would do a lot of things differently. And, yes, wearing a tonne of equipment would somewhat limit his movement, so he would probably want to discard certain techniques. If Batman was really practical, however, he wouldn't be doing flashy kicks and the like to begin with because they are by definition risky, and not particularly high percentage attacks. Simple and efficient is effective. Also, he'd probably keep his chin down while he's fighting, but comic book artists (and martial arts movie choreographers, as often as not) draw and show off flashy things because they're pretty and that's what people want to see, whether or not it's realistic or effective in real practice.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I Considered The Practicality Factor, But Moreso I Was Thinking That Moving Like Liu Kang Would Be Hurtful To His Image. To Maintain The Whole "Creature Of The Night" Persona, He'd Wanna Get In, Hit 'em & Get Out Before They Know What He Did.

 

[Tin_Man]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?

You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.

 

[The Question]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.

 

[Tin_Man]

Batman has studied and is well-versed in 127 major forms of hand-to-hand combat. He's unpredictable, which makes him a great fighter.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.

Ya if anything Judo should be a huge part to his fighting style. I understand the whole military style as well. And to go back in time about that one thread of yours The Question I understand why it bothered you that he knows 127 different styles...kind of ridiculous and does not need them all..at least not to master...to counter a crapload of different styles maybe though.

 

[Qoèlet]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.

I'm pretty sure that they don't cover Batman's magical "tap you and you pass out" move, but no matter.
Your essential point, that Batman ought to be sticking to basic, efficient attacks and defences, seems to be right on. After all, it's fundamentals that the top competitors in any form of combative sport are going to win with. Wrestlers are going to win gold medals with doubles or high crotch take-downs, just as Yoshida won his gold medal in Judo with the same throw he wins all his matches with (Uchimada? Anyway, it's that throw from the double overhooks), and boxers like Ali and Lewis were dominant champions due to their stiff, accurate jabs... in other words, all these fighters dominate with the throws, takedowns, strikes etc. that they were learning on the first day they showed up in the gym, not with one of a hundred other fancy techniques they have an encyclopedic knowledge of. So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

Once again, however, Batman reflects comic book artists' impressions of how a great martial artist should fight, gleaned from Kung Fu movies and other crap. Not a realistic view of how fights are going to go.

 

[Tin_Man]

So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

The point is to be prepared; look at virtually every crisis that Batman has faced, and in nearly every single one, he is prepared. He trained in 100+ styles so he can recognize and counter anyone who would use one or more of those styles against him. That's Batman; he prepares himself for virtually any possibility, be it intellectual or physical. He's not going to use every single move on one thug, nor is he going to use a fancy flip-a-roo; the thug is going to throw an ungainly, untrained punch, and Batman will counter with something better, but simple. Now, if he faced down a martial artist, he would use the fancy moves to counter his opponent's attacks. The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.

 

[trustyside-kick]

So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

I know it seems needless and ridiculous but the main thing I can think of is that if you know certain styles you also know how to counter them. I think if anything that is the most important reason for anyone to know more than a few styles.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Good Point.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.

ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, HIS ARTIFICIAL LIMBS-ESPECIALLY THOSE CRAFTED BY THE MED-DROIDS & NOT BY HIS OWN HAND, LACK THE AGILITY & COORDINATION THAT HE HAD AS A JEDI; AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE COULD NO LONGER EXECUTE THOSE FLYING LEAPS, NOR WOULD HE EVER BE ABLE TO SUMMON LIGHTNING LIKE HIS MASTER & PREDECESSOR.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Whoa...were those caps by mistake?

 

[Infinity9999x]

The point is to be prepared; look at virtually every crisis that Batman has faced, and in nearly every single one, he is prepared. He trained in 100+ styles so he can recognize and counter anyone who would use one or more of those styles against him. That's Batman; he prepares himself for virtually any possibility, be it intellectual or physical. He's not going to use every single move on one thug, nor is he going to use a fancy flip-a-roo; the thug is going to throw an ungainly, untrained punch, and Batman will counter with something better, but simple. Now, if he faced down a martial artist, he would use the fancy moves to counter his opponent's attacks. The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.

See the problem with the 100+ thing is simply this: Batman is supposed to be a normal man, a normal man will NEVER EVER be able to learn 100+ different martial arts styles. It takes at least a year (with lots of training) to become good in one style, many years to become better then average, and a Lifetime to master. And this is all for ONE style. It's simply impossible for a normal man to know that many techniques.

 

[Tin_Man]

ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, HIS ARTIFICIAL LIMBS-ESPECIALLY THOSE CRAFTED BY THE MED-DROIDS & NOT BY HIS OWN HAND, LACK THE AGILITY & COORDINATION THAT HE HAD AS A JEDI; AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE COULD NO LONGER EXECUTE THOSE FLYING LEAPS, NOR WOULD HE EVER BE ABLE TO SUMMON LIGHTNING LIKE HIS MASTER & PREDECESSOR.

Yes, which is silly, in my opinion. General Grievous had cybernetic parts, and he danced around like a chimpanzee on an acid trip. The whole "Vader is slow because he is part-cyborg" thing is there to explain the lack of flipping around in the Original Trilogy; I guarantee you, that if the PT was made first and the OT was made in the modern era, Vader would be flipping around as easily as full organics.

See the problem with the 100+ thing is simply this: Batman is supposed to be a normal man, a normal man will NEVER EVER be able to learn 100+ different martial arts styles. It takes at least a year (with lots of training) to become good in one style, many years to become better then average, and a Lifetime to master. And this is all for ONE style. It's simply impossible for a normal man to know that many techniques

Actually, Batman is not supposed to be a normal man; he is supposed to be the peak of physical perfection for a human. Also, if he was meant to be a normal man, he'd be an everyday joe-shmo, not a multi-billionaire who dresses up at night to punch criminals in the face. Batman is the best that a human can become, and is meant to be illustrated as such. He devoted his life to methods which will aid him in fighting crime.
Also, Batman is about 30; at least, in his early thirties. His parents were killed when he was 8. At 14, he began to journey the Earth, learning new skills and fighting techniques.
When he came back to Gotham with these newfound skills, he was deadly, but he was by no means a master; he became a master via experience. And if you want to get technical, it is simply impossible for a man to fire grappling hooks and swing about a crime-ridden city. It is simply impossible for a man to fight crime all of his life via vigilante methods, and fight supervillains such as the venom-induced Bane or the supposedly-immortal Mr Freeze. But it's a comic; things are meant to be exaggerated. Supervillains are given these gimmicks and powers, and superheroes are given the means to combat them.

 

[Qoèlet]

The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.

*Groan*
In Batman's fictional world, where there are secret special techniques limited to one martial art, which only have one workable defence restricted to students of that one art, that makes sense.
The thing is that, in reality, if you take strikers from a dozen different martial arts, the kicks and punches etc. that they throw in combat are going to be almost entirely identical. We only have two arms and two legs and seriously there are only so many ways to throw a punch or a kick. There might be slight differences, but the someone who practices Muay Thai is going to be able to respond to pretty much everything that someone who practices Karate or Taekwondo throws at him. Now, while he himself might not be throwing a spinning back kick, the idea is not alien to him and he should be able to defend against it: bottom line, he doesn't need to know how to do it to sidestep it (and for the record, the majority of the time I've seen that spinning back kick in practice, the opponent's best defence isn't to respond with something flashy, but to sidestep and throw a right cross... which any striking martial artist will know).

More from my direct experience, I can tell you that the vast majority of throws in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are easily found in freestyle wrestling, and a good wrestler will already know how to respond to everything Judo or Jiu-Jitsu practitioners will use to take him down (I'm a slightly above mediocre wrestler here, no formal Judo or Jiu-Jitsu training, and nothing a couple Jiu-Jitsu and Judo instructors have done to me in sparring or in my presence have surprised me or seemed alien to me). Likewise, someone with good Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is perfectly capable of responding to what any wrestler, Sambo, Judo, catch-as-catch-can, Aikido, or any other martial art practitioner is going to do on the ground. It's just useless to do even five different martial arts for grappling and takedowns, because when it comes right down to it they all amount to basically the same thing.
If Batman were to have studied 3 or 4 different styles, that makes some logical sense: you don't find good punching in Jiu-Jitsu, or good grappling in kickboxing. But 100 is useless because the amount of overlap is ridiculous and any sensible person wouldn't waste so much time and effort relearning the same things under different names.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Tin Man May Be Right About His Vader Argument.

 

[The Question]

Ya if anything Judo should be a huge part to his fighting style. I understand the whole military style as well. And to go back in time about that one thread of yours The Question I understand why it bothered you that he knows 127 different styles...kind of ridiculous and does not need them all..at least not to master...to counter a crapload of different styles maybe though.

Thing is, you don't have to know an established style in order to counter it. You have to be able to read and individual person's style. Because, whenever someone learns to fight, they alter the style they've learned slightly to fit them. So really, the best way to counter someone is not to know a **** load of moves, but to have alot of practical experiance and to be able to read people well.

I'm pretty sure that they don't cover Batman's magical "tap you and you pass out" move, but no matter.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that special forces soldiers are trained to learn pressure points.

Your essential point, that Batman ought to be sticking to basic, efficient attacks and defences, seems to be right on. After all, it's fundamentals that the top competitors in any form of combative sport are going to win with. Wrestlers are going to win gold medals with doubles or high crotch take-downs, just as Yoshida won his gold medal in Judo with the same throw he wins all his matches with (Uchimada? Anyway, it's that throw from the double overhooks), and boxers like Ali and Lewis were dominant champions due to their stiff, accurate jabs... in other words, all these fighters dominate with the throws, takedowns, strikes etc. that they were learning on the first day they showed up in the gym, not with one of a hundred other fancy techniques they have an encyclopedic knowledge of. So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

It's basically to make him look cool.

Once again, however, Batman reflects comic book artists' impressions of how a great martial artist should fight, gleaned from Kung Fu movies and other crap. Not a realistic view of how fights are going to go.

Of course. Bruce Lee, arguably one of the best fighters of the 20th century, always said that you should cultivate your own style from instinct and experiance. And carry weapons if you can.

 

[Chris Wallace]

The First Part Of Your Post Is Very Insightful. As For The Second, I Wasn't In Recon, Special Forces Or Even Infantry & We Still Learned Pressure Points. It's A Part Of Military Basic Training. I imagine the special ops guys would know even more.

 

[The Question]

See? Military teaches pressure points. All Batman would have needed to do was hire someone with alot of military combat experiance, and learn how to fight from him. Now, I'm with the understanding that military hand to hand combat training is designed to be learned very quickly. Am I correct?

 

[Chris Wallace]

Boot Camp Is 3 Months In The Marines; Other Branches Are Less.

 

[The Question]

Cool. So, way I see it, Bruce would have, logically, found an old special forces guy, and trained with him for several months to a year.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?

or perhaps his costume would be augmented in order to allow for the extra agility needed to travel across rooftops and swing around.

the fighting style he woudl use woudl depend on his foe, the number he's up against and the level of fighting skill they are at.

in a comic world, his techniques would look no different to daredevil, spidey, cap etc...


oh and i believe a true martial arts expert would need to be trained in no more than five varied arts of combat to the highest level in order to fully be able to deal with anything the world throws at him. (these are five unarmed techniques, i'm not sure about how many weapon based ones would be required but probably all of them).

100+ seems bizzare.

all in all, it'd be easier to change the costume than to change fighting style but all martial artists have to deal with restriction of clothing in a real fighting situation, normal clothes are in no way are free as a gi so if you were caught in a situation that would lead to a tussle, you'd have to think of what you're going to do unless you want to rip your trousers wide open

 

[Chris Wallace]

Valid Points, But I Didn't Say "change"; I Said "adapt".

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

same difference, i'm not necessarily talking about changing martial arts style, rather a techniques within a discipline.