Batman's fighting style

[The Question]

First of all it's not impossible to master 127fighting styles if you have the drive and if all you do is train,train and train.

Yes. It is. No matter how hard you train, it would take several decades to get even remotely close.

Impractical and useless? Hell no it's not and deep down you know it's not.

No, it really is.

Some styles are better than others some have weaknessess that are easy to exploit and some has weaknessess that are hard to exploit.

Yeah. But mastering 127 different fighting styles is a ****ing ******ed way of getting around that. When it comes down to it, you really should take the essential manuevers and skills and put them together into your own personal style that fits you. That's how a good fighter fights. A combination of the judo throws and grappling techniques you're comfortable with. That combined with military hand to hand combat training, which basically teaches you how to be a good fighter along with the moves, and you'd be fine.

I can see as for you it would be impossible to master it because you probably would take martial arts as a source for getting fit and i highly doubt you are fit.

That's a rather unfair assumption to make. Now, I don't have the body of an olympic level athlete, but I'm in decent shape, and I'm regularly active.

Military hand to hand combat would not work best for batman because if you put someone who is skilled in muy thai agaisnt someone who is skilled in CQC my money is on the muy thai fighter.

Why? Muy thai isn't necessairily better than CQC. Now, if it's one of those muy thai fighters who's been training since he or she is three, then of course the CQC guy's going to loose. Nothing to do with muy thai being better. It's just that those specific muy thai fighters are ****ing machines. Most of them are trained to completely ignore pain from a very young age. A level of fighting prowess that Batman would never be able to achive, mind you. You'd have to train from very early childhood to get to that level. Batman started in his teens. Wouldn't work.

And batman doesn't kill he only kills when neccesary he's not punisher don't get me wrong their both bad ass but punisher kills for kicks and batman well he doesn't.

So? What does killing have to do with it. CQC doesn't necessairily mean he's going to kill the other guy. If he's trying not to, he could easily go without killing.

Batman could easily take down captain america, captain america is only skilled in judo and boxing as for batman he has mastered all 127fighting styles if you can't handle it then deal with it and get over it.

How many styles you know has nothing to do with how good you are. It just has everything to do with how little a life you have. Being a good fighter has to do with how well you use the skills you have in combat scenarios. You can learn all the moves you want, but unless you can use them well you'd still get your ass kicked. And, you forget that Cap is a low level superhuman. He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has far greater endurance than Batman or what Batman could ever hope to have. Cap's been known to run five miles in a little over a minute and bench over 1000 pounds while carrying on a casual conversation. And, his sensory input and reflexes are much faster than humanly possible. He literally sees faster. That combined with his years of battle experiance, he is an incredibly formidable oponent. He'd most likely beat Batman.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Yes. It is. No matter how hard you train, it would take several decades to get even remotely close.

As much as I wouldn't like to get into another debate, I'm simply baffled when people argue that certain things aren't possible in fiction. Even if there is some semblance of our "reality" in the Batman mythos, it still exists in a realm where acheiving the impossible is common and often times actually ordinary. You being an intelligent poster and devoted comic fan probably should know this better than anyone.

I don't think what is humanly possible in our world should be the measure of what is possible in the comics/cartoons. That said, the official DC Archives and The Ultimate Guide to The Dark Knight both list Batman as having mastered all 127 major styles of combat and, among other things, being one of the leading martial artists in the world. Whether you believe this is accurate or not is solely up to you, but there's no denying the fact that it's official from the DC Comics end. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong; the abilities of all heroes fluctuate to suit a given story.

And, you forget that Cap is a low level superhuman. He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has far greater endurance than Batman or what Batman could ever hope to have. Cap's been known to run five miles in a little over a minute and bench over 1000 pounds while carrying on a casual conversation. And, his sensory input and reflexes are much faster than humanly possible. He literally sees faster. That combined with his years of battle experiance, he is an incredibly formidable oponent. He'd most likely beat Batman.

You've probably heard it a million times, but it is widely understood that Batman has pushed his mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection; he's essentially the ultimate warrior. I've always understood that as lower-level superhuman capacity akin to Achilles of the Greek myth (one of the possible reasons why Wonder Woman is attracted to Batman in JL/JLU.) Interestingly enough, this has been backed up by quite a few sources, most from the cartoons. In any case, "pinnacles of human perfection" is the constant in most of his descriptions, a bold testament to the abilites of The Dark Knight. Whether or not this means Batman is as powerful as Captain America is certainly contestable, but I'm confident that Batman's arguably superior thinking and intellect and access to billions of dollars of weaponry is enough to make the battle fair for both characters, maybe even tip the scales in favor of Batman.

But in fiction, each character has an equal shot at winning; it all depends on the popularity of the character and the decisions of the writer.

 

[The Question]

As much as I wouldn't like to get into another debate, I'm simply baffled when people argue that certain things aren't possible in fiction. Even if there is some semblance of our "reality" in the Batman mythos, it still exists in a realm where acheiving the impossible is common and often times actually ordinary. You being an intelligent poster and devoted comic fan probably should know this better than anyone.

Yes. But if you have a character doing what is impossible, you have a super human character. Are you saying that Batman is super human?

I don't think what is humanly possible in our world should be the measure of what is possible in the comics/cartoons.

It should be when it's a human character who's not supposed to have super powers of any kind.

You've probably heard it a million times, but it is widely understood that Batman has pushed his mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection; he's essentially the ultimate warrior. I've always understood that as lower-level superhuman capacity akin to Achilles of the Greek myth (one of the possible reasons why Wonder Woman is attracted to Batman in JL/JLU.)

So, you're telling me that Batman, a character who's entire apeal is that he's a normal human with training, ahs atained super human abilities through his training? Bull****. Absolute bull****. Batman may be perfect for a human, but Cap is super human. He dwarfs Batman in all regards.

Interestingly enough, this has been backed up by quite a few sources, most from the cartoons. In any case, "pinnacles of human perfection" is the constant in most of his descriptions, a bold testament to the abilites of The Dark Knight.

Not the same as Cap. Cap is the pinacle of perfection (and possible beyond it) in all areas. That is impossible to acheive through training.

Whether or not this means Batman is as powerful as Captain America is certainly contestable, but I'm confident that Batman's arguably superior thinking and intellect and access to billions of dollars of weaponry is enough to make the battle fair for both characters, maybe even tip the scales in favor of Batman.

Why is Batman suddenly smarter than Cap. I've always thought that Cap is supposed to be a genius in terms of tactical thinkng.

But in fiction, each character has an equal shot at winning; it all depends on the popularity of the character and the decisions of the writer.

Popularity should not be a factor. It is, but that only cheapens the story and the characters.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I think the way it's been explained through Batman Begins has been that Bruce learned several different styles......and just developed his own out of usage of these various styles.

I think trying to imply Bats has full and great use of over 127 styles of martial arts is kinda crazy. Saying he is familar with over 127 is better, but he cannot be formidable in all those styles. Him developing his own style out of training in these various styles is the way to go.

Remember, Bruce is a genuis. His mind is on an epic scale in terms of knowledge he can take in and just how smart he is, and it's the biggest part of what makes him tick. And physically, he's as good as it gets without being superhuman. His tactical knowledge, not just HOW to fight but the attacks and WHEN's of it also count.

Popularity, sadly, does count for something.......it does have an effect on writers.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Yes. But if you have a character doing what is impossible, you have a super human character. Are you saying that Batman is super human?

He does the impossible all of the time. He's still human, but he's the perfect human. If that implies superhuman, than yes. But I don't look it at that way at all; I just classify his incredible, incredibile "perfect human" abilities as near or just at "lower-level superhuman." But he's still human and like Achilles, Batman is capable of such awesome feats that go above and beyond the normal capabilities of a human.

It should be when it's a human character who's not supposed to have super powers of any kind.

Batman may be human, but the things he has done even without any type of superhuman implication is beyond human capacity.

So, you're telling me that Batman, a character who's entire apeal is that he's a normal human with training, ahs atained super human abilities through his training? Bull****. Absolute bull****. Batman may be perfect for a human, but Cap is super human. He dwarfs Batman in all regards.

No, I'm not telling you that.

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was, like Batman, at the peak of perfect human. Strange.

Not the same as Cap. Cap is the pinacle of perfection (and possible beyond it) in all areas. That is impossible to acheive through training.

EDIT: Are you talking about human perfection? If so, it is clear that Batman also reached such a height (as evidenced by the DC Archives and in the various feats he has accomplished in stories.) And whether or not that can be accomplished through training is irrelevant because he exists in a realm where it is possible. It also helps that Batman is gifted with superior genetics. But just for argument's sake, one can also say that reaching such a height with some type of serum is impossible. Which is why possibilities and impossibilities should be thrown out of the discussion.

In any case, I'm always skeptical about the superheroes who attain their powers by some artificial mechanism (i.e. radioactive spider, gamma rays, supersoldier serum, etc.)

 

[Qoèlet]

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was slightly above the perfect human. Strange.

Being above the perfect human, even if only slightly, is the very definition of "superhuman" (I was under the impression that Captain America had simply attained physical perfection as a human, which Batman was also defined as possessing, but not matter).

Now, there was a whole CQC vs. Muay Thai debate up the page... I would say that's probably a bit pointless. From what I gather from conversations with my friends in the infantry, at least some of what soldiers learn for hand-to-hand is very similar to Muay Thai. I've seen my pal demonstrate a double collar tie ("Thai Clinch" as it's popularly called), among other things. The main difference would tend to be that the military trains to integrate weapons and the like into the mix, as well as bits and pieces from other martial arts... the point is to form a system that works in the situations you need to use it. Obviously a boxer isn't learning how to use a combat knife in combat, because he wants to box, not shank someone. Likewise, a soldier's not going to practice pure boxing or muay thai, because they have rules to minimize injury and they are by definition limited in their scope (and besides, he probably has a weapon on him or around him in combat, so fists are the last resort). Of course, Batman's developed something different that doesn't even exist in the real world. He's mixing the things the Thai Boxer does with a few of the things the soldier does, mixed with some things from Judoka.... but then he isn't going to be using military training for guns and knives because, guess what, he doesn't use them.. what he is throwing in, however, is wild rope swinging acrobatics, quick drawn batarangs, and a mess of other gagets mr. CQC has never heard of.

So yeah, what Batman does is probably a lot like military CQC.... except entirely different.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Being above the perfect human, even if only slightly, is the very definition of "superhuman" ).

You are correct. I'll edit what I said.

(I was under the impression that Captain America had simply attained physical perfection as a human, which Batman was also defined as possessing, but not matter)

That is what I meant to say at first. You mean to tell me that this is not the case? What have they been doing to Captain America recently?

 

[Qoèlet]

That is what I meant to say at first. You mean to tell me that this is not the case? What have they been doing to Captain America recently?

I never read Marvel comics, to be honest. I just assumed you were right about your [mis]statement, and was expressing my own confusion.

 

[Tin_Man]

"There are 127 major styles of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan. His knowledge of so many varied disciplines has made Bruce an unconventional and unpredictable opponent, quite capable of countering a Savate kick with a Caporeira dodge, then kayoing with a paw-knuckle strike!"
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight


He has learned the styles, not mastered, which makes a bit more sense in light of the posts here. But he never just sat in a dojo to learn; no, Batman learned by doing. He's a hands-on person when it comes to training; he is no fool.

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14; along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior. Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different. Super strength? Technique beats strength any day. Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless. Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?), but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.
Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.
Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield. Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.
Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats. Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

 

[saint sinner x]

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14; along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior. Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different. Super strength? Technique beats strength any day. Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless. Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?), but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.
Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.
Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield. Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.
Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats. Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

Exaclty, I don't think captain america comes close to beating batman i mean seriously speaking even if they just put them in a cage my money is on bruce wayne. He's just more skilled more experienced and way more of a dirty fighter and more bad ass you have to put characteristic into account. Captain america is a boy scout and bruce wayne is not. Batman could easily use psionic-blasters to make captain american not hear a danm thing then batman walks behind him very stealthy and BAM! he uses a pressure point attack. The batman is known for throwing a batarang at 100mph plus batman has alot more of long distance range than captain america does if captain america would throw his shield at batman the batman would easily dodge it he would throw an explosive powder captain america would probably wouldn't be able to see batman and BOOM batman would take him out. Now if they would fight in a cage the fight would probably go like this bruce wayne would wait until cap't attacks bruce would grap his arm break it kick him in his neck then punches cap't in the solar plex then he would sweep cap't and he would probaly jump over him skillfully then he would take him out with a pressure point attack. Batman was able to handle punisher and in my opinion punisher is more skillful then captain america in terms of fighting and defeating it's enemies. Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.

 

[The Question]

He does the impossible all of the time. He's still human, but he's the perfect human.

There's a difference between doing the improbable and doing the impossible. I have no problem with Batman doing the improbable. But once he starts doing things that are humanly impossible, then he has entered the realm of suoer humanity. That completely ruins teh apeal of the character.

If that implies superhuman, than yes. But I don't look it at that way at all; I just classify his incredible, incredibile "perfect human" abilities as near or just at "lower-level superhuman." But he's still human and like Achilles, Batman is capable of such awesome feats that go above and beyond the normal capabilities of a human.

That's bull****. If you have a character doing superhuman things, then say he is a superhuman. If he's not supposed to be superhuman, don't have im do superhuman things. It's really that simple. You can't train to become superhuman. And saying Batman did is just a lazy way of writing him. And remember, Achilles was a superhuman. He was a demi god who was nigh indestructible.

Batman may be human, but the things he has done even without any type of superhuman implication is beyond human capacity.

Which is bull**** writing. Like I've said, I have no problem with Batman pulling off things that are unlikely. But for him, a supposedly normal human being, to do things that are humanly impossible, is bad writing.

No, I'm not telling you that.

Sounded like it.

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was, like Batman, at the peak of perfect human. Strange.

First off, slightly above peak is superhuman. Second, Cap is slightly above peak in all areas. That is impossible to atain through training.

EDIT: Are you talking about human perfection? If so, it is clear that Batman also reached such a height (as evidenced by the DC Archives and in the various feats he has accomplished in stories.) And whether or not that can be accomplished through training is irrelevant because he exists in a realm where it is possible. It also helps that Batman is gifted with superior genetics. But just for argument's sake, one can also say that reaching such a height with some type of serum is impossible. Which is why possibilities and impossibilities should be thrown out of the discussion.

No, they shouldn't. Cap reached his level through the super soldier serum. It basically gave him super powers. Batman had no serum. For him to reach that level of physical prowess, which is superhuman, and still remain under the classification of a nromal human being with training is crappy writing.

In any case, I'm always skeptical about the superheroes who attain their powers by some artificial mechanism (i.e. radioactive spider, gamma rays, supersoldier serum, etc.)

Why?

Now, there was a whole CQC vs. Muay Thai debate up the page... I would say that's probably a bit pointless. From what I gather from conversations with my friends in the infantry, at least some of what soldiers learn for hand-to-hand is very similar to Muay Thai. I've seen my pal demonstrate a double collar tie ("Thai Clinch" as it's popularly called), among other things. The main difference would tend to be that the military trains to integrate weapons and the like into the mix, as well as bits and pieces from other martial arts... the point is to form a system that works in the situations you need to use it. Obviously a boxer isn't learning how to use a combat knife in combat, because he wants to box, not shank someone. Likewise, a soldier's not going to practice pure boxing or muay thai, because they have rules to minimize injury and they are by definition limited in their scope (and besides, he probably has a weapon on him or around him in combat, so fists are the last resort). Of course, Batman's developed something different that doesn't even exist in the real world. He's mixing the things the Thai Boxer does with a few of the things the soldier does, mixed with some things from Judoka.... but then he isn't going to be using military training for guns and knives because, guess what, he doesn't use them.. what he is throwing in, however, is wild rope swinging acrobatics, quick drawn batarangs, and a mess of other gagets mr. CQC has never heard of.

Very good points all around. All I'm saying is, CQC, or a variation of it, would work best for Batman. The weapons stuff would be different. But I'd think the hand to hand would be relatively the same. In terms of weapons, Batman generally uses flashbangs, tasers, and batarangs in combat. Flashbangs and tasers, CQC guys know all about. Special forces guys often carry flashbangs with them. The batarangs are a weapon of Bruce's invention. They're basically bat shaped shurikens with the return aspect of a boomerang. Of course, those would be used differently. But then, he's not generally using them in hand to hand combat. He tends to use them to take enemies out from afar.

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14;

That's not experience. That's training. And alot of those years were spent learning to be a detective and a forensic scientist. Forgeting all of the bull**** of him learning 127 different fighting styles in 11 years, not all of that was spent on training. Cap is just as skilled a fighter, with war time experience. That's a whole different beast that beating up muggers.

along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior.

Cap's quite stealthy aswell. He was a special agent for the military, remember? Alot of his missions were stealth related.

Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different.

Yes, he would. The only super types Batman has really beat either had an easily exploitable weakness or were really stupid. Or the story was poorly written. Cap is highly inteligent. Probably Batman's intelectual equal.

Super strength? Technique beats strength any day.

Not always. If someone is enormiously stronger than you and isn't ******ed, you're probably going to lose. And Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant in his own right.

Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless.

Not always. If the guy is fast enough, he'ss still out do you. And, like I Said, Cap is a highly skilled fighter even without his powers.

Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?),

Ra's isn't like Cap at all. Ra's doesn't have any powers. Bane is much more comperable to Cap than Ra's. And even then, Bane hase proved to be a very close match for Batman.

but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.

Yes, he has. The Red Skull, Batroc the Leaper, Crossbones, all are probably in Batman's league. And Cap has fought people who are superior to Batman. Taskmaster, the Armadillo, legions of Hydra Agents, the Super Adaptiod, Baron Blood, the list goes on.

Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.

And why would atending preppy colleges better prepare you for a fight?

Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield.

And indestructible sheild. The thing has survived nuclear blasts and blows from Norse God Kings. Plus, he's also been known to carry knives, handguns, and grenades into combat situations.

Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.

Cap's suit is also highly protected. One time, Baron Blood (a nazi vampire) tried to bite him. Nearly broke his teath on Cap's protective suit.

Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats.

So does Cap. Cap may seem like a good old fasioned boy scout. And in many respects, he is. But he doesn't fight stupid. He'll take ballshots, he'll break your arm, and if he feels the need he'll probably kill you.

Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

There, we can agree.

Exaclty, I don't think captain america comes close to beating batman i mean seriously speaking even if they just put them in a cage my money is on bruce wayne. He's just more skilled more experienced and way more of a dirty fighter and more bad ass you have to put characteristic into account.

How is he more skilled and has more experience? From what I understand, Cap has a few years of actual combat time on Bruce. And, a few of them were in war time. Alot more stressful than beating up muggers.

Captain america is a boy scout and bruce wayne is not.

So? Doesn't mean he's a wuss. Captain America kills people. Bruce Wayne doesn't. Cap doesn't like to kill, but he has many a time and will again if he's left without options.

Batman could easily use psionic-blasters to make captain american not hear a danm thing then batman walks behind him very stealthy and BAM! he uses a pressure point attack.

Cap was doing stuff like that in WWII without the aid of sonic weapons.

The batman is known for throwing a batarang at 100mph plus batman has alot more of long distance range than captain america does if captain america would throw his shield at batman the batman would easily dodge it he would throw an explosive powder captain america would probably wouldn't be able to see batman and BOOM batman would take him out.

Ummm, Cap can most definately throw his sheild at 100 MPH. Probably a bit faster. He's got strength, you know. And how the hell is Batman going to easily dodge a large metal disk moving at over 100 MPH?

Now if they would fight in a cage the fight would probably go like this bruce wayne would wait until cap't attacks bruce would grap his arm break it kick him in his neck then punches cap't in the solar plex then he would sweep cap't and he would probaly jump over him skillfully then he would take him out with a pressure point attack.

And Cap could do the same damned thing to Bruce. Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant, and is Bruce's physical superior.

Batman was able to handle punisher and in my opinion punisher is more skillful then captain america in terms of fighting and defeating it's enemies.

How so? They're both military men. The Punisher was just a marine. Cap was a special agent for the defense department in WWII. He was taking guys out Sam Fisher style before Frank Catsle was even born.

Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.

Cap's taken on entire squads of soldiers before. And he's got super powers.

 

[Tin_Man]

That's not experience. That's training. And alot of those years were spent learning to be a detective and a forensic scientist. Forgeting all of the bull**** of him learning 127 different fighting styles in 11 years, not all of that was spent on training. Cap is just as skilled a fighter, with war time experience. That's a whole different beast that beating up muggers

Batman has hands-on training. Meaning that as he studied his martial arts, he literally had legions of members of those particular dojos trying to kill/hurt him. It wasn't a lame 13-year-old karate match; this was life or death. Therefore, his training does equal experience.
Cap fought in war. Combat in war consists mainly of guns, not hand to hand. That's not to say hand-to-hand doesn't occur, but you gain much more of it fighting ninjas than you do Nazis.
Oh, and learning all 127 major styles of combat isn't bull****. It's canon. It's fact. Accept it.

Cap's quite stealthy aswell. He was a special agent for the military, remember? Alot of his missions were stealth related.

Military stealth is inferior to that of those who have been practicing it, perfecting it, for centuries, as the Kirigi have done.

Yes, he would. The only super types Batman has really beat either had an easily exploitable weakness or were really stupid. Or the story was poorly written. Cap is highly inteligent. Probably Batman's intelectual equal.

No, Cap is not Batman's intellectual equal, and I will explain that when i address the schools.
Also, claiming that a story is poorly written is a sad cop-out; if the debate consists heavily of in-story points, stick to in-story points. Saying that Batman won because the story was poorly written is saying that you have no other way to argue the point.

Not always. If someone is enormiously stronger than you and isn't ******ed, you're probably going to lose. And Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant in his own right.

Agreed, there are exceptions to the rule, and Cap is indeed highly skilled. He just isn't as skilled at Batman. Stronger? Yes. Faster? Most likely. But not as skilled.

Not always. If the guy is fast enough, he'ss still out do you. And, like I Said, Cap is a highly skilled fighter even without his powers.

Again, there are exceptions to the rule. I admit that.

Ra's isn't like Cap at all. Ra's doesn't have any powers. Bane is much more comperable to Cap than Ra's. And even then, Bane hase proved to be a very close match for Batman.

I disagree; Ra's is a genius. He is the only man that can be called Batman's intellectual equal; tactics, strategy, etc. Ra's has experience that surpasses Batman and Cap combined; he is centuries old, and master of several different killing arts.
Bane is not Batman's equal. Not by a long shot. He was able to snap Batman's back only after Batman went weeks with little sleep, working relentlessly to capture the escaped inmates of Arkham.
Sure, Bane studied the strategems of military conquerors throughout history, but that hardly makes him an equal. In recent fights between the two, Batman hasn't even run out of breath.

Yes, he has. The Red Skull, Batroc the Leaper, Crossbones, all are probably in Batman's league. And Cap has fought people who are superior to Batman. Taskmaster, the Armadillo, legions of Hydra Agents, the Super Adaptiod, Baron Blood, the list goes on.

Nobody in the Marvel Universe is quite like Batman; the only person who comes close is Captain America himself.

And why would atending preppy colleges better prepare you for a fight?

My point was not about fighting itself; I was talking education in tactics and strategy. Schools such as Cambridge have an excellent curriculum regarding strategy. Batman went to not one, not two, but several of these schools.

And indestructible sheild. The thing has survived nuclear blasts and blows from Norse God Kings. Plus, he's also been known to carry knives, handguns, and grenades into combat situations

Cap has been known to carry such weapons; that doesn't mean he gets them by default when facing Batman. But let's assume for a moment that he does.
The Batsuit: "Pound for pound, body armor pales in comparison. Designed for maximum utility, the Dark Knight's costume is both fire-******ant and chemical-resistant, with triple-weave Kevlar positioned primarily around the torso's Bat-Symbol, an intentional and well-protected target."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Guns would bounce off. Knives would be no problem, assuming they could get past Batman's counterattacks. Grenades could be a problem, but Batman carries them as well. And let's not forget that grapnels are a nice way to escape a grenades blast radius in a hurry. Of course, Batman could easily chuck one of his own as he zips to safety.

Cap's suit is also highly protected. One time, Baron Blood (a nazi vampire) tried to bite him. Nearly broke his teath on Cap's protective suit.

Which is to be expected, naturally. Of course, Batman has used his wall-penetrating grapnel as a weapon before, and seeing as it has a micro-diamond drill head, it's quite possible that it can penetrate Steve's own suit. The shield would be a different story, however.


So does Cap. Cap may seem like a good old fasioned boy scout. And in many respects, he is. But he doesn't fight stupid. He'll take ballshots, he'll break your arm, and if he feels the need he'll probably kill you.

I wasn't referring to just fighting techniques; Cap is no boy scout, as you said, and will dish out the nutshots and eyejabs. I was referring to gadgets and such;
"Batman's miniaturized chemical arsenal includes IR paint markers, foaming explosive gels, super-cooled electronic device freezers, and Ver-Sed (quick-acting kmock-out and temporary amnesiac) sprays"
"Various gas deterrents are arrayed in pouches throughout Batman's Utility Belt. Flash/Bang charges, smoke bombs, tear and regurgitant gases are deployed by breaking hardened-gelatin spheroid capsules."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Also, there are more than just cutting batarangs (which sport edges capable of sheering metal, by the way); there is also hard-impact )Rockwell c-60 hardness edge).

Ummm, Cap can most definately throw his sheild at 100 MPH. Probably a bit faster. He's got strength, you know. And how the hell is Batman going to easily dodge a large metal disk moving at over 100 MPH?

Body language. Batman can read body language. If they are a distance from one another (which would be the case if Cap was going to throw his shield at all), Batman would be able to avoid the discus by moving before it was thrown at all. Which is why this would be a close-quarters thing; it would have to be, because Cap would be able to do the same thing when Batman wound up for a Batarange throw. Both weapons are designed for close-combat though, so that would make it all the more interesting.

There, we can agree.

Indeed. In a battle between Captain America and Batman, the real winners are us, the spectators.
I am enjoying this debate, and I hope you are as well.

Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.

Here's where I have to disagree with you. Cap is by no means a pushover; he is a tough customer. While I believe Batman would emerge the victor, it wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park; it would be a hard-fought battle, very close. Both men are skilled and driven. Both are smart. And both are very, very dangerous.

 

[The Question]

Batman has hands-on training. Meaning that as he studied his martial arts, he literally had legions of members of those particular dojos trying to kill/hurt him. It wasn't a lame 13-year-old karate match; this was life or death. Therefore, his training does equal experience.

I highly doubt that, as a thirteen year old, he had hundreds of ninjas atacking him at once.

Cap fought in war. Combat in war consists mainly of guns, not hand to hand. That's not to say hand-to-hand doesn't occur, but you gain much more of it fighting ninjas than you do Nazis.

Maybe. But then, soldiers are trained to fight well. And Cap's wartime experience wasn't limited to the battlefeilds. He was doing alot of special operations stuff.

Oh, and learning all 127 major styles of combat isn't bull****. It's canon. It's fact. Accept it.

It may be cannon, but it's still bull****.

Military stealth is inferior to that of those who have been practicing it, perfecting it, for centuries, as the Kirigi have done.

How can military stealth be "inferior?" Stealth is stealth. The same techniques are used by all people trying to be stealthy.

No, Cap is not Batman's intellectual equal, and I will explain that when i address the schools.

What does schooling have to do with combat?

Also, claiming that a story is poorly written is a sad cop-out; if the debate consists heavily of in-story points, stick to in-story points. Saying that Batman won because the story was poorly written is saying that you have no other way to argue the point.

No, it's saying that the story is poorly written. If Batman beats someone who all logic dictates should kick Batman's ass, it is a poorly written story. The A.M.A.Z.O. fight was poorly written. Batman taking down four white martians was poorly written if you think about it.

Agreed, there are exceptions to the rule, and Cap is indeed highly skilled. He just isn't as skilled at Batman. Stronger? Yes. Faster? Most likely. But not as skilled.

Yes, he is. Knowing a **** load of unnecessairy moves doesn't make you skilled. It means you know a **** load of unnecessairy moves. Skill is how you use those moves and how well you use them. Cap is as skilled a combatant as Batman.

I disagree; Ra's is a genius. He is the only man that can be called Batman's intellectual equal; tactics, strategy, etc. Ra's has experience that surpasses Batman and Cap combined; he is centuries old, and master of several different killing arts.

Yeah. But that doesn't make him comperable to Cap. Ra's isn't like Cap at all. He's ****ing smart, but he has no superhuman abilities.

Bane is not Batman's equal. Not by a long shot. He was able to snap Batman's back only after Batman went weeks with little sleep, working relentlessly to capture the escaped inmates of Arkham.
Sure, Bane studied the strategems of military conquerors throughout history, but that hardly makes him an equal. In recent fights between the two, Batman hasn't even run out of breath.

Bane is close to Batman's equal, I think. The problem is that DC has sort of degraded Bane into a thug who's much less inteligent than he used to be.

Nobody in the Marvel Universe is quite like Batman; the only person who comes close is Captain America himself.

No. The Red Skull is definately on Batman's level. And I'd bet that Batroc is close. Taskmaster, Baron Blood, Armadillo, and The Super Adaptoid all surpass him, I think.

My point was not about fighting itself; I was talking education in tactics and strategy. Schools such as Cambridge have an excellent curriculum regarding strategy. Batman went to not one, not two, but several of these schools.

And Cap learned stratigy from the military. I'm fairly certain the military teaches stratigy better than Cambridge.

Cap has been known to carry such weapons; that doesn't mean he gets them by default when facing Batman. But let's assume for a moment that he does.
The Batsuit: "Pound for pound, body armor pales in comparison. Designed for maximum utility, the Dark Knight's costume is both fire-******ant and chemical-resistant, with triple-weave Kevlar positioned primarily around the torso's Bat-Symbol, an intentional and well-protected target."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Guns would bounce off.

No, they wouldn't. Bullets don't bounce off of kevlar. They get stuck in the fabric, shatter against the armor plate, and knock you flat on your ass if you're too close.

Knives would be no problem, assuming they could get past Batman's counterattacks. Grenades could be a problem, but Batman carries them as well. And let's not forget that grapnels are a nice way to escape a grenades blast radius in a hurry. Of course, Batman could easily chuck one of his own as he zips to safety.

Naturally.

Which is to be expected, naturally. Of course, Batman has used his wall-penetrating grapnel as a weapon before, and seeing as it has a micro-diamond drill head, it's quite possible that it can penetrate Steve's own suit. The shield would be a different story, however.

Yes, it would.

I wasn't referring to just fighting techniques; Cap is no boy scout, as you said, and will dish out the nutshots and eyejabs. I was referring to gadgets and such;
"Batman's miniaturized chemical arsenal includes IR paint markers, foaming explosive gels, super-cooled electronic device freezers, and Ver-Sed (quick-acting kmock-out and temporary amnesiac) sprays"
"Various gas deterrents are arrayed in pouches throughout Batman's Utility Belt. Flash/Bang charges, smoke bombs, tear and regurgitant gases are deployed by breaking hardened-gelatin spheroid capsules."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Also, there are more than just cutting batarangs (which sport edges capable of sheering metal, by the way); there is also hard-impact )Rockwell c-60 hardness edge).

Oh, I understand that Batman has quite an arsenal. But, the batarangs wouldn't do **** againts Cap's sheild. All that Cap would really have to worry about is the gas weapons. And I'm failry certain he has a very impressive lung capacity.

Body language. Batman can read body language.

Sure he can. But not like Batgirl or Taskmaster can. I'd think that with his combat experiance, Cap can read body language just as well.

If they are a distance from one another (which would be the case if Cap was going to throw his shield at all), Batman would be able to avoid the discus by moving before it was thrown at all.

And Cap has good enough reflexes to stop throwing and change what he's aiming for. Plus, his sheild bounces like hell, so he won't usually aim for his target. He'll throw the sheild off walls and have it ricochet to his target. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain Cap can read body language aswell.

Which is why this would be a close-quarters thing; it would have to be, because Cap would be able to do the same thing when Batman wound up for a Batarange throw. Both weapons are designed for close-combat though, so that would make it all the more interesting.

And, in close quarters, Cap takes it. He's faster, stronger, has better reflexes, and he doesn't get fatigued. Plus, even without his powers, he's just as good a hand to hand combatant as Bruce.

 

[Tin_Man]

I highly doubt that, as a thirteen year old, he had hundreds of ninjas atacking him at once.

My apologies; I was not clear. I meant that the ninjas attacking Bruce is not like a karate match between thirteen-year-olds. He was most certainly not fighting ninjas at the age of 13, and I apologize again for the miscommunication.

Maybe. But then, soldiers are trained to fight well. And Cap's wartime experience wasn't limited to the battlefeilds. He was doing alot of special operations stuff.

While that is true, the bulk of Batman's focus in combat has been on hand-to-hand. Cap's experience has been split between the two.

It may be cannon, but it's still bull****.

That's like saying it's bull**** that Superman has all of his powers, or that Captain America was frozen. It may be unrealistic, but in fiction, it becomes reality.

How can military stealth be "inferior?" Stealth is stealth. The same techniques are used by all people trying to be stealthy.

There are different degrees of stealth. There is military stealth, which is good in its own right. Then there is Ninja stealth, which is, essentially, invisibility. No noise, no sound.

What does schooling have to do with combat?

What I meant was I will address that particular point when I elaborate on the Euro schools. Which I did.

No, it's saying that the story is poorly written. If Batman beats someone who all logic dictates should kick Batman's ass, it is a poorly written story. The A.M.A.Z.O. fight was poorly written. Batman taking down four white martians was poorly written if you think about it.

Indeed, it may have been poorly written. Nevertheless, it happened, and you cannot simply ignore it because you dislike it.

Yes, he is. Knowing a **** load of unnecessairy moves doesn't make you skilled. It means you know a **** load of unnecessairy moves. Skill is how you use those moves and how well you use them. Cap is as skilled a combatant as Batman.

Unnecessary? Batman has used these moves to defeat people ranging from thugs to immortal martial arts masters to steroid-enhanced muscle-heads. Plenty of those martial arts moves are designed to turn an opponent's strength against them, which is what Batman has done, and will continue to do.

Yeah. But that doesn't make him comperable to Cap. Ra's isn't like Cap at all. He's ****ing smart, but he has no superhuman abilities.

Well, it depends on your definition of superhuman. Ra's has lived for hundreds of years, which is above and beyond humans. Granted, it's due to an outside source (Lazarus Pit), but let's not forget that Steve's own superhuman status came about from technology (Super Soldier Serum). So technically, Ra's is superhuman.
The original point was to focus on an opponent who was well-versed in tactics and strategies; in that area, Ra's is quite comparable to Cap.

Bane is close to Batman's equal, I think. The problem is that DC has sort of degraded Bane into a thug who's much less inteligent than he used to be.

If DC had kept him above the thug-level, i would agree that he could be considered Batman's equal. But now? Bane is nothing.

No. The Red Skull is definately on Batman's level. And I'd bet that Batroc is close. Taskmaster, Baron Blood, Armadillo, and The Super Adaptoid all surpass him, I think.

I'll admit, I don't know much about the foes of Captain America. Red Skull is the one I am most familiar with, and even then, my knowledge is lacking. Care to give me a crash course in what puts him on Batman's level?


And Cap learned stratigy from the military. I'm fairly certain the military teaches stratigy better than Cambridge.[/quote]

No, the military of the mid-1900s taught Cap strategy. Schools like Cambridge in the modern era teach much more advanced strategy, as it is a later point in time.

No, they wouldn't. Bullets don't bounce off of kevlar. They get stuck in the fabric, shatter against the armor plate, and knock you flat on your ass if you're too close.

Triple-weave Kevlar. This isn't riot police gear; this is far more advanced and durable. Also, if Batman and Cap were close enough where a bullet would knock Batman down, guns wouldn't even be an issue. It would be 95% fists if they were that close to one another.

Oh, I understand that Batman has quite an arsenal. But, the batarangs wouldn't do **** againts Cap's sheild. All that Cap would really have to worry about is the gas weapons. And I'm failry certain he has a very impressive lung capacity.

Batman also uses Batarangs in close-range combat, not to mention the fact that he can throw the smaller-sized ones like shurkins; one crooked between each finger. I would also think that Cap would lose his shield at some point in the fight.


And Cap has good enough reflexes to stop throwing and change what he's aiming for. Plus, his sheild bounces like hell, so he won't usually aim for his target. He'll throw the sheild off walls and have it ricochet to his target. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain Cap can read body language aswell.[/quote]

Once he is without the shield, he's open for the Batarang attacks, which can disable rather quickly. It's all a question of what gets where first: the shield to Batman via ricocheting off of multiple objects, or the straight line Batarangs to Cap. Also, the shield would hardly move at 100 KPH if it ricochets off of several objects; the shield may be indestructable, but concrete isn't. Any indestructable object moving at 100 KPH at a concrete pillar will sever the pillar instead ricocheting in the desired direction.

And, in close quarters, Cap takes it. He's faster, stronger, has better reflexes, and he doesn't get fatigued. Plus, even without his powers, he's just as good a hand to hand combatant as Bruce.

That's debatable. Batman is fast himself, and can take more than a few hits. This is where body language and fighting style come in; Cap attacks first, Batman sees it coming, and counters with something that'll take the good Captain by surprise. Cap throws the punch, but Batman chucks a gass pellet in Cap's face, and takes the punch. Who's the worse off? That's one of Batman's defining attributes, especially when he fights a being more powerful than him: he'll take a hit, but it will cost the aggressor quite a bit. Look at how he handled Darkseid in the Supergirl arc; he had no chance of physically overpowering someone like Darkseid, yet he still won; Darkseid hit him, and Batman hit him with a far more effective weapon: the safety of Darkseid's planet. Batman would do something similar to Cap; hence, the gas pellet.
While one gas pellet is not enough to stop someone like Cap, one punch is hardly enough to stop Batman. This will be one hell of a fight, as I stated earlier; both will get critical shots in, and the winner will just barely walk away.

 

[The Question]

That's like saying it's bull**** that Superman has all of his powers, or that Captain America was frozen. It may be unrealistic, but in fiction, it becomes reality.

No, it's not like that. But I'm not going to get into that here. Different arguement.

There are different degrees of stealth. There is military stealth, which is good in its own right. Then there is Ninja stealth, which is, essentially, invisibility. No noise, no sound.

I doubt ninjas are completely soundless. And really, how do you know the military aren;t that good. Their proffesionals. They're probably usuing the same tactics the ninjas have been using for centuries.

Indeed, it may have been poorly written. Nevertheless, it happened, and you cannot simply ignore it because you dislike it.

I'm not ignoring them. I'm simply stating that they were poorly written.

Unnecessary? Batman has used these moves to defeat people ranging from thugs to immortal martial arts masters to steroid-enhanced muscle-heads. Plenty of those martial arts moves are designed to turn an opponent's strength against them, which is what Batman has done, and will continue to do.

Yes, but learning 127 different fighting styles is unnecessairy.

Well, it depends on your definition of superhuman. Ra's has lived for hundreds of years, which is above and beyond humans. Granted, it's due to an outside source (Lazarus Pit), but let's not forget that Steve's own superhuman status came about from technology (Super Soldier Serum). So technically, Ra's is superhuman.

But he;s not superhuman like Cap is.

The original point was to focus on an opponent who was well-versed in tactics and strategies; in that area, Ra's is quite comparable to Cap.

Oh. Well, there I agree.

If DC had kept him above the thug-level, i would agree that he could be considered Batman's equal. But now? Bane is nothing.

Which I, personally, have problems with. But that's another thing that has little to do with this conversation.

I'll admit, I don't know much about the foes of Captain America. Red Skull is the one I am most familiar with, and even then, my knowledge is lacking. Care to give me a crash course in what puts him on Batman's level?

The Red Skull's story:

Born on the streets of Germany, Johann Schmidt was homeless from a young age. To survive, he quickly learned to be a theif and criminal. Eventually, in his late teens, he landed a job as a bellboy in a hotel. There, he met a young politician named Adolf Hitler. Hitler, impressed by the boy's intelect and fighting skills, took him in and made him a member of his part. As Hitler gained more power, Johann gained more experience as a leg breaker. Eventually, he began receiving training from the best the German military had to offer. By the time the war started, Johann was Nazi Party's top assasin and special operative, code named: The Red Skull. While not Captain America's physical equal, The Red Skull's fighting prowess, intelect, willingness to kill innocents, and comand of many German soldiers made him a very formidable oponent for Captain America. Eventually, The Red Skull placed his mind in a clone body of Captain America, making him Cap's physical equal aswell as his intelectual equal.

No, the military of the mid-1900s taught Cap strategy. Schools like Cambridge in the modern era teach much more advanced strategy, as it is a later point in time.

How can you have more advanced tactics? Feild tactics only change with technology. Although the weapons have improved, the weapons of today are still the same kinds of weapons they had in WWII. Tanks, fighter planes, machine guns, missiles, all of that. And, hand to hand stratigy never changes. Also, the military are pros. Cambridge is just a college in Europe. While it's courses are probably quite good, I'm sure the military is much more in depth.

Triple-weave Kevlar. This isn't riot police gear; this is far more advanced and durable. Also, if Batman and Cap were close enough where a bullet would knock Batman down, guns wouldn't even be an issue. It would be 95% fists if they were that close to one another.

Very true.

Batman also uses Batarangs in close-range combat, not to mention the fact that he can throw the smaller-sized ones like shurkins; one crooked between each finger. I would also think that Cap would lose his shield at some point in the fight.

If it's close quarters? Not very likely.

Once he is without the shield, he's open for the Batarang attacks, which can disable rather quickly.

And he can dodge. Remember, Cap's faster with better reflexes than Batman.

It's all a question of what gets where first: the shield to Batman via ricocheting off of multiple objects, or the straight line Batarangs to Cap. Also, the shield would hardly move at 100 KPH if it ricochets off of several objects; the shield may be indestructable, but concrete isn't. Any indestructable object moving at 100 KPH at a concrete pillar will sever the pillar instead ricocheting in the desired direction.

Fair points. I doubt Cap would throw the sheild that hard if he was doing the ricochet thing.

That's debatable. Batman is fast himself, and can take more than a few hits. This is where body language and fighting style come in; Cap attacks first, Batman sees it coming, and counters with something that'll take the good Captain by surprise.

The thing is, Batman isn;t Batgirl or Taskmaster. He reads body language, but as well as any highly skilled fighter. I bet Cap can read body language just as well.

Cap throws the punch, but Batman chucks a gass pellet in Cap's face, and takes the punch.

'Course, Cap can always grab the pellet out of Batman's hand.

Who's the worse off? That's one of Batman's defining attributes, especially when he fights a being more powerful than him: he'll take a hit, but it will cost the aggressor quite a bit. Look at how he handled Darkseid in the Supergirl arc; he had no chance of physically overpowering someone like Darkseid, yet he still won; Darkseid hit him, and Batman hit him with a far more effective weapon: the safety of Darkseid's planet. Batman would do something similar to Cap; hence, the gas pellet.
While one gas pellet is not enough to stop someone like Cap, one punch is hardly enough to stop Batman. This will be one hell of a fight, as I stated earlier; both will get critical shots in, and the winner will just barely walk away.

I think the winner will be Cap. If the fight's close quarters, there's no contest. Cap's as good a fighter and a physical superior.

 

[The Flash!]

The Question.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

No, it's not like that. But I'm not going to get into that here. Different arguement.

It is like that, and you are taking the easy way out by not the addressing the issue. Like I said earlier, whether or not you choose to believe Batman learned all 127 major styles of combat (or anything else about the Batman mythos for that matter) is up to you, but there's no denying that it's canon.

I'm not ignoring them. I'm simply stating that they were poorly written.

You're not ignoring them, but you are acknowledging them in a way which voids the events that happened within those given stories.

Yes, but learning 127 different fighting styles is unnecessairy.

Unnecessary or not, he did learn them.

There's a difference between doing the improbable and doing the impossible.

Yes, there is a distinction between the two.

I have no problem with Batman doing the improbable. But once he starts doing things that are humanly impossible, then he has entered the realm of suoer humanity.

His whole life is a human impossibility. He does the humanly impossible all of the time. Not the improbable, the impossible.

What you are doing is attributing our own limited capabilities to the realm of fiction. Which is illogical; Batman wouldn't be able to do any of things he does if he was held down by the measure of our own limited capabilites.

That's bull****. If you have a character doing superhuman things, then say he is a superhuman. If he's not supposed to be superhuman, don't have im do superhuman things. It's really that simple. You can't train to become superhuman. And saying Batman did is just a lazy way of writing him. And remember, Achilles was a superhuman. He was a demi god who was nigh indestructible.

I'll admit that I sound a little counter-intuitive, so I'll say this:

Coupled with superior human genes, Batman has been able to hone his body and mind to the pinnacles of human perfection. He has superior intellect, fighting prowess, reflexes, speed, endurance, stamina, etc. These attributes have been pushed to the aforementioned pinnacles of human perfection. And he continues to improve upon these skills making them greater and greater.

Accordingly, he is a human gifted with abilites comparable to those of lower-level superhumans.

That completely ruins teh apeal of the character.

Says you. I for one like the idea of a human being gifted with both the indomitable human spirit and the physical and mental abilities to uphold it. This doesn't mean he's superhuman or meta-human at all.

No, they shouldn't. Cap reached his level through the super soldier serum.

I was just abiding by your own view of the limitations of humans:

Even if you somehow managed to create a supersoldier serum, it wouldn't be able to get you past the peak of human abilities; you can't go beyond the peak of human capacity, you can only meet it. If the former were possible, it would cause all the basic laws of our world to crumble. But that's just it, it's not our world. It's fiction.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

The Question.

You can't be serious. His whole argument is flawed.

 

[The Flash!]

You can't be serious. His whole argument is flawed.

Personally? I think it's the other way around....

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Personally? I think it's the other way around....

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact. Our arguments are stronger.

 

[The Question]

It is like that, and you are taking the easy way out by not the addressing the issue. Like I said earlier, whether or not you choose to believe Batman learned all 127 major styles of combat (or anything else about the Batman mythos for that matter) is up to you, but there's no denying that it's canon.

And I wasn't. I'm simply saying taht it's complete and utter bull****.

You're not ignoring them, but you are acknowledging them in a way which voids the events that happened within those given stories.

I suppose.

Unnecessary or not, he did learn them.

Never said he didn't. I just said it was bull****.

His whole life is a human impossibility. He does the humanly impossible all of the time. Not the improbable, the impossible.

Which he should not be doing if he is supposed to be nothing more than a human with training.

What you are doing is attributing our own limited capabilities to the realm of fiction. Which is illogical; Batman wouldn't be able to do any of things he does if he was held down by the measure of our own limited capabilites.

That's bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. If you have a character do what is humanly impossible, the character ios a super human. And yet Batman is supposed to be a human being with training. Thus, he should be written that way.

I'll admit that I sound a little counter-intuitive, so I'll say this:

Coupled with superior human genes, Batman has been able to hone his body and mind to the pinnacles of human perfection. He has superior intellect, fighting prowess, reflexes, speed, endurance, stamina, etc. These attributes have been pushed to the aforementioned pinnacles of human perfection. And he continues to improve upon these skills making them greater and greater.

Accordingly, he is a human gifted with abilites comparable to those of lower-level superhumans.

Which doesn't make sense. You can't train to become a superhuman. If you want him to be a human being, write him that way. If you want him to be written as a superhuman, admit he's a superhuman. But don't write him as one and call him the other.

Says you. I for one like the idea of a human being gifted with both the indomitable human spirit and the physical and mental abilities to uphold it. This doesn't mean he's superhuman or meta-human at all.

I have nothing against that either. What I don't like is Batman being written as a superhuman. And that's how he's written. And that, my friend, is bull**** writing.

I was just abiding by your own view of the limitations of humans:

Even if you somehow managed to create a supersoldier serum, it wouldn't be able to get you past the peak of human abilities; you can't go beyond the peak of human capacity, you can only meet it. If the former were possible, it would cause all the basic laws of our world to crumble. But that's just it, it's not our world. It's fiction.

That's completely different. Cap has super powers. The serum gave him super powers. That was the very point of the serum. It's not like he trained to be super. That would be bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. Not a meta. And yet they write him preforming superhuman feats. That is, survey says:



Lazy writing.

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact.

I'm not denying any facts. I'm simply stating that said facts are bull****.

 

[The Flash!]

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact. Our arguments are stronger.

The Question is great at debating these kind of things, he simply does his homework. Seriously, he's doing that now.



Not that I have anything against anyone that is.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

Never said he didn't. I just said it was bull****.

Fine.

That's bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. If you have a character do what is humanly impossible, the character ios a super human. And yet Batman is supposed to be a human being with training. Thus, he should be written that way.

If he's written that way, he can't do all of the following things:

• Use his grapple from roof top to roof top. The arms of humans cannot handle such tension and velocity.
• Fight criminals with guns and/or avoid their bullets.
• Fight superpowered foes such as Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and even Ra's Al Ghul.
• Survive impossible odds against numerous opponents each night.
• Jump tall heights.
• Maintain a secret identity.
• Use Batarangs effectively enough from distances.

And the list could go on and on.

Which doesn't make sense. You can't train to become a superhuman. If you want him to be a human being, write him that way. If you want him to be written as a superhuman, admit he's a superhuman. But don't write him as one and call him the other.

No, but you can hone your mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection. I don't you think understand how bold such a height is; shouldn't the word "perfection" explain it all? That's a powerful word. In any case, I'm not saying he can lift a car or run super fast speeds. Those types of strengths are superhuman.

I have nothing against that either. What I don't like is Batman being written as a superhuman. And that's how he's written. And that, my friend, is bull**** writing.

I don't follow comics much; I'm more of the follower of the DCAU Batman, particularly the JL/JLU Batman. That interpretation is the pillar for my argument, so I can't speak much for the comics.

That's completely different. Cap has super powers. The serum gave him super powers. That was the very point of the serum. It's not like he trained to be super. That would be bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. Not a meta. And yet they write him preforming superhuman feats.

I was simpy saying that even with some sort of supersoldier serum, you can only meet the peak of human capacity, not exceed it. What I was trying to do is take your own viewpoint on the limitations of humans and extend it to Captain America (because, afterall, he is human.)

I'm not denying any facts. I'm simply stating that said facts are bull****.

So you're like Stephen Colbert.

In the end, all I am saying is that Batman is the model of human perfection. Perfection. And whether or not that implies superhuman is totally up to you. I don't think it does, but I think that "human perfection" is in a whole other class than just "human."

 

[TheGrayGhost]

The Question is great at debating these kind of things, he simply does his homework. Seriously, he's doing that now.

All I've seen so far is mere conjecture by his part. Which is totally fine by me.

 

[The Question]

If he's written that way, he can't do all of the following things:

Use his grapple from roof top to roof top. The arms of humans cannot handle such tension and velocity.

So? Does he need to? Why not just use the grappling gun to climb up buildings, help slow his descent off of roofs, and ocasionally use it to swing across large gaps.

Fight criminals with guns and/or avoid their bullets.

Sure he could. The trick isn't to dodge the bullets (which can;t be done), but to move around enough so they don't get a clear shot. A moving target wearing all black in the dark at night is going to be very difficult to hit. Besides, he could just drop a flashbang to completely obscure their vision.

Fight superpowered foes such as Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and even Ra's Al Ghul.

I could see Bane being a real problem because of his strength. But Mr. Freeze, all he'd have to do is avoid his blasts. Poison Ivy's powers don't give her any combat advantages. And Ra's doesn't have any powers, besides the fact that you can't kill him.

Survive impossible odds against numerous opponents each night.

Well, if they have him taking on large groups of thugs hand to hand, of course. But really, if there's a large croud, drop flashbangs to disorient them and use a taser weapon of some sort.

Jump tall heights.

Like I said, he could use the grappling gun to slow his descent.

Maintain a secret identity.

Why not? Smart criminals can go years, sometimes even decades without being caught. Why not a vigilante?

Use Batarangs effectively enough from distances.

Depends on what you mean by distance. 200 feet? Of course it would be impossible. But 20 to 30? I don;t see why not.

No, but you can hone your mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection.

Of course.

I don't you think understand how bold such a height is; shouldn't the word "perfection" explain it all? That's a powerful word.

Way I see it, Batman would have a fighter's build. Very striong, but not bulky. Probably can bench 300-400 pounds max. Much more concentraiting on speed and reflexes.

In any case, I'm not saying he can lift a car or run super fast speeds. Those types of strengths are superhuman.

So is benching 725 pounds while being a world class gymnest. Just not as extreme an example of super humanity.

I was simpy saying that even with some sort of supersoldier serum, you can only meet the peak of human capacity, not exceed it.

Yes, you can. Because it's a Super Soldier serum. Emphasis on the word super. It makes the peson who takes it super. Why would the military spend millions on a formula that can only make you what someone could become with enough training?

What I was trying to do is take your own viewpoint on the limitations of humans and extend it to Captain America (because, afterall, he is human.)

No. He's superhuman. Just a low level one.

So you're like Stephen Colbert.

Wow. I'm flattered.

In the end, all I am saying is that Batman is the model of human perfection. Perfection. And whether or not that implies superhuman is totally up to you. I don't think it does, but I think that "human perfection" is in a whole other class than just "human."

The thing is, Batman isn't written as being the pinnacle of human perfection. He is, more often than not these days, written to preform superhuman feats. They just don;t admit that said feats are superhuman.