Batman's fighting style

[trustyside-kick]

Ok um...this is about Batman's fighting styles...you guys have gone so off topic and now talking about chi powers and crap which Batman does not possess.

 

[Qoèlet]

Ok um...this is about Batman's fighting styles...you guys have gone so off topic and now talking about chi powers and crap which Batman does not possess.

That would tend to be the point: doesn't have them, doesn't need them, so forget the whole BS mystic stuff... although it's pretty amusing that the Dalai freaking Lama was cited like he's an authority on combat.

 

[The Question]

On the subject on ninjitsu "Chi powers:"

From the information I've gleaned, one of the bigger advantages ninjas had over samurai (aside from way more practical equipment and tactics centuries ahead of its time) wasn't that they had any sort of supernatural abilities, but that they were able to convince enemies that they did. Some would wear spiked cleats on their feet and hands, which allowed them to climb sheer walls, or catch incoming sword strikes. This would give them the illusion of having superhuman strength or agility. They are also said to have colored their clothing in red dye to mask the color of blood when they were cut, giving them the illusion of being invincible.

Such clever trickery could also lead to people's imaginations getting the better of them; if ninjas were capable of scaling walls without ropes, catching swords with their bare hands, and being struck without bleeding, what else could they do? So I'd have to guess that most of the stories of ninjas having any sort of supernatural powers were either carefully crafted illusions or simple urban legend.

Very true. And that is the kind of mystique Batman would try to cultivate and could easily cultivate. The proper body armor combines with proper evasion tactics could make him seem bulletproof. Proper use of flashbangs and smoke pellets to hide his actions and stun his oponents combined with a taser could build up the reputation that he has sufficient strength to knock a man out by barely touching him. Use of a grappling gun with an electronic reel atatched to his belt used to swing across large gaps, lower himself to the ground safely, and scale buildings quickly combined with his cape gives the illusion that he can fly. Proper use of a blowgun with small enough darts makes it seem that he can cause people to pass out with the power of his mind.

(Though the CIA has been known to employ remote viewers and psychics, which does potentially validate the argument. Still, there's a difference between psychics and "Chi")

And there's a difference between being a remote veiwer (a skill that I doubt more than a handful could ever really cultivate) and using freaking chi powers as seen in Chinese action movies.

Also, regarding ninja clans roaming the Asian continent, there aren't any. Ninjitsu is still being practiced by many, but the last actual ninjas died off in the late ninteenth/early twentieth century, not long after the Samurai were wiped out. They had mainly served as bodyguards for the Shogun for the last century or so of their existence (to eliminate them as a "wild card" in the clashes between feudal lords), and when Japan began to modernize, there was simply no need for them. Since then, modern special ops groups have taken many of the ninjitsu techniques and adapted them for modern warfare. Simply put, ninjas were ahead of their time way back when, but now they're obsolete.

Very true. One could easily learn the skills of ninjitsu without ever leaving the U.S.

 

[Kritish]

You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.

It would still hurt his flexibility.

 

[Kool-Aid]

although it's pretty amusing that the Dalai freaking Lama was cited like he's an authority on combat.

Well you read that wrong, thats okay though...

Oh and Batman has had mystical teachings and uses chi techniques.

Batman healing himself.
http://img12.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc188&image=ea5_batraining4.jpg
http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc86&image=e12_batraining5.jpg
http://img108.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc277&image=93c_batraining6.jpg


Heres a chi moves for you.
http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=d8a_batpalm.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc145&image=da4_batshots.jpg

Heres a breif run down on his training.
http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkskill1.html

 

[The Question]

Heres a chi moves for you.
http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=d8a_batpalm.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc145&image=da4_batshots.jpg

How is any of that "chi" related. All that was was mentioning that he knows the "vibrating palm technique" (which I would wager doesn't actually exist), and a bunch of moves that were fancy names for elbowing someone in the chest.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Where are those pictures he posted from?

 

[Tin_Man]

It would still hurt his flexibility.

Are we talking Vader, or Batman?

If it's Vader, it really shouldnt; if anything, it should increase his flexibility. Grievous, a cyborg with a breathing problem himself, was able to flip and twirl like mad. Vader had the cybernetics and the Force; by all logic, Vader should be able to flip and twirl in a manner superior to Grievous. But there Lucas goes again, trying to make escuses for the Original Trilogy Vader's lack of mobility. The EU novel Dark Lord is trying to smooth over his idiocy... like the EU always does ("It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs" anyone?). That's a big complaint of mine with the Prequels; all flash, and very little substance, whereas the Originals didn't need fancy twirly-gigs to capture interest.

As for Batman? No. The materials that Batman uses in his suit are designed for maximum mobility, as stated in the book "Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight."

 

[trustyside-kick]

Never heard of that book before; Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight.

 

[Tin_Man]

It's an official publication by DC Comics that focuses on Batman, his weaponry/gadgets, his enemies, and friends. You can find it at Barnes & Noble; it's alot like those Ultimate Guides that Marvel puts out. They have one on Superman, as well, though I have yet to purchase it.

 

[Kool-Aid]

How is any of that "chi" related. All that was was mentioning that he knows the "vibrating palm technique" (which I would wager doesn't actually exist), and a bunch of moves that were fancy names for elbowing someone in the chest.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4079


Also: Vibrating Palm: also called Iron Palm. A method reputedly enabling one to produce a psycho-physical heat internally, which, with control, can be made to project into the palms of the hands or to any area of the body. ... Today, any practitioner who achieves "a hand like iron," as the saying goes, is credited with possessing an iron palm. This technique belongs almost exclusively to the domain of Kung-Fu. http://www.karatelaw.com/faqs.html

Also: Kung-fu expert Kah Wah Lee is reported to have rediscovered an ancient technique known as the "vibrating palm". Apparently Lee placed two pieces of half-inch-thick roofing-tiles under two boards, having sandwiched between them a cushion of tofu (soft bean-curd made into custard) about 3 inches thick. He applied his right hand to the board on top. The tiles chattered. Lee claimed that he converted his ch'i or ki into resonating vibrations by means of intense concentration. These were then transmitted through the tofu to the lower board and from there to the tiles, which were shattered by the resonance. It is said that it is possible to deliver a "delayed death-touch" to one's opponent by this means [17]. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm

Heres one of the moves that was in the other pic.
Phoenix Eye Fist
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix Eye Techs/Pheonix-eye.jpg
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix Eye Techs/Pheonix-eye1.jpg

I couldn't find the Steel mountain push to back it up. My friend said thats a real one though.

 

[The Question]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4079


Also: Vibrating Palm: also called Iron Palm. A method reputedly enabling one to produce a psycho-physical heat internally, which, with control, can be made to project into the palms of the hands or to any area of the body. ... Today, any practitioner who achieves "a hand like iron," as the saying goes, is credited with possessing an iron palm. This technique belongs almost exclusively to the domain of Kung-Fu. http://www.karatelaw.com/faqs.html

Also: Kung-fu expert Kah Wah Lee is reported to have rediscovered an ancient technique known as the "vibrating palm". Apparently Lee placed two pieces of half-inch-thick roofing-tiles under two boards, having sandwiched between them a cushion of tofu (soft bean-curd made into custard) about 3 inches thick. He applied his right hand to the board on top. The tiles chattered. Lee claimed that he converted his ch'i or ki into resonating vibrations by means of intense concentration. These were then transmitted through the tofu to the lower board and from there to the tiles, which were shattered by the resonance. It is said that it is possible to deliver a "delayed death-touch" to one's opponent by this means [17]. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm

Hmmm. Interesting.

Heres one of the moves that was in the other pic.
Phoenix Eye Fist
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye.jpg
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye1.jpg

I couldn't find the Steel mountain push to back it up. My friend said thats a real one though.

You know, simply punching the guy really hard would be just as effective.

 

[Qoèlet]

Well you read that wrong, thats okay though...

Oh, so you didn't say "Ninjas gotta know a thing or 2. I mena the Dali Lama hired them"? Because I'm pretty sure you did. This statement implies that, because the Dalai Lama hired ninjas, that means they must be very good at their jobs. The only reason that the fact the Dalai Lama decided to employ these individuals would be relevant would be that the Dalai Lama is better qualified than those of us involved in this conversation to decide who the most effective security agents/martial artists in the world are. The only problem is that the Dalai Lama is a spiritual leader, has probably never thrown a punch in his entire life, and rightly so given his position. He doesn't know **** about combat, so it doesn't matter who he hires... it is just as relevant as stating that the Pope has a small army of Swiss Guards, and therefore Batman should probably run off to the Vatican and train with them. But of course no-one's claiming that because there's no BS mysticism attached to the Swiss, and no people like Frank Dux (and probably that joker who claims to have rediscovered the "quivering palm"), putting together charades and parlour tricks under the guise of ninjitsu and gung fu so they can profit from McDojos.

 

[Kool-Aid]

See? Yeah, you read it wrong.... He hired them doesn't mean he knows things about combat.....it does mean though that I'm sure they were refered by someone who knows alot....don't you think he would have someone hire the best or someone would make sure he had the best? And for the rest of your post its just your opinon.....Batman is what he is...

 

[Qoèlet]

See? Yeah, you read it wrong.... He hired them doesn't mean he knows things about combat.....it does mean though that I'm sure they were refered by someone who knows alot....don't you think he would have someone hire the best or someone would make sure he had the best? And for the rest of your post its just your opinon.....Batman is what he is...

Let's look at your proposed logic for deciding who to train with, then compare it to The Question's
Dalai Lama... spiritual leader who you assume to have good advisors (who you didn't bother to mention in your chain of logic beforehand: I did not read anything incorrectly).
US government and armed forces: superpower that's actually involved in, you know, fighting and killing people.
And yet you're privileging the Dalai Lama's supposed advisors' expertise, which you cannot actually establish aside from saying you assume he has good advisors.... over the expertise of military and espionage agencies of the world's greatest military power, which has actually been proven, and is being proven, time and time again in the real world. How in the hell does this display anything resembling a logical train of thought?

So, game point and match go to The Question.

Sadly, however, it is not only my opinion that people seek to profit from the nonsensical mysticism associated with east-asian martial arts. Remember Frank Dux? This man essentially showed up out of the blue, told a story about being trained by his old ninja neighbour fighting in secret tournaments and being undefeated... but of course that story couldn't be confirmed because... hey... the tournaments were "secret"... never mind the fact that there's no actual record of his supposed ninja teacher ever having existed. And people actually believed him. People still believe him, even though former students have come forward to reveal that some of his "feats" like breaking bulletproof glass and shattering two bottles in the air at once, were complete fabrications. Of course, then there's the "Chi knockout" already mentioned. Bottom line: try to find some modern day examples of real, legitimate, combat situations or sports fighting where ninja and "chi" tactics have proven successful outside of exhibitions and kung fu movies. Good luck on that.
Basically, people buy into it because of fiction and a genuine belief in the mysticism of "the orient"... it's really bigotry more than anything else.

 

[DGrayson]

I wanted to ask something if anyone know please answer, I always tought that the navy seals sucked in hand to hand combat, but then I found out about their mixed style. Which led me to think that Nightwing has apparently an emphasis on aikido in the comics but his style is more acrobatic so there might be some mixed martial art or a specific one for speed and aerial combat? Does anyone know about one that emphasises aerial combat or/and speed?

 

[Nightwing 52]

I wanted to ask something if anyone know please answer, I always tought that the navy seals sucked in hand to hand combat, but then I found out about their mixed style. Which led me to think that Nightwing has apparently an emphasis on aikido in the comics but his style is more acrobatic so there might be some mixed martial art or a specific one for speed and aerial combat? Does anyone know about one that emphasises aerial combat or/and speed?

Wushu.

 

[Nightwing92]

batman is a master of every known martial art in the world! (right?)

 

[nmilstein]

Let's look at your proposed logic for deciding who to train with, then compare it to The Question's
Dalai Lama... spiritual leader who you assume to have good advisors (who you didn't bother to mention in your chain of logic beforehand: I did not read anything incorrectly).
US government and armed forces: superpower that's actually involved in, you know, fighting and killing people.
And yet you're privileging the Dalai Lama's supposed advisors' expertise, which you cannot actually establish aside from saying you assume he has good advisors.... over the expertise of military and espionage agencies of the world's greatest military power, which has actually been proven, and is being proven, time and time again in the real world. How in the hell does this display anything resembling a logical train of thought?

So, game point and match go to The Question.

Sadly, however, it is not only my opinion that people seek to profit from the nonsensical mysticism associated with east-asian martial arts. Remember Frank Dux? This man essentially showed up out of the blue, told a story about being trained by his old ninja neighbour fighting in secret tournaments and being undefeated... but of course that story couldn't be confirmed because... hey... the tournaments were "secret"... never mind the fact that there's no actual record of his supposed ninja teacher ever having existed. And people actually believed him. People still believe him, even though former students have come forward to reveal that some of his "feats" like breaking bulletproof glass and shattering two bottles in the air at once, were complete fabrications. Of course, then there's the "Chi knockout" already mentioned. Bottom line: try to find some modern day examples of real, legitimate, combat situations or sports fighting where ninja and "chi" tactics have proven successful outside of exhibitions and kung fu movies. Good luck on that.
Basically, people buy into it because of fiction and a genuine belief in the mysticism of "the orient"... it's really bigotry more than anything else.

I'm afraid that:
1) I am not a qualified comic reader
2) I am not a qualified martial arts master
3) I am not a qualified health-care professional (this will be made clear later on).

However, what I can offer is an anecdotal evidence of "the mysticism of the 'orient' " (please note that it is NOT related to combat).
My brother had tendinitis in his hand. It got bad enough that he was exempt from all practical exams (please note that his violin teacher didn't care in the least when his nail tore off during a masterclass... as a result, he bled all over his violin's fingerboard for the remainder of the masterclass). He took all the tests recommended by the school doctor/physician (again, I am NOT a qualified health-care professional, and I don't remember which tests he took for those of you who ARE qualified), but there was nothing that could be done. When he came back, we went to see a .. I'm not sure what the correct word for it is in English, so I'll refer to that type of professional a "Chinese doctor" (perhaps "physician using traditional methods" would be more appropriate, but I'm digressing). The "Chinese doctor" did some chi-related treatment (it might have involved acupressure, but not acupuncture). Immediately afterwards, the swelling in my brother's hand regressed, and he could move his fingers. He gave of a bad-smelling brew, and he told my brother to dip his hand in it regularly (I forgot the schedule). My brother's hand healed properly.

A few notes:
- This is ANECDOTAL evidence. It should by no means taken as something that can occur most of the time with most "Chinese doctors".
- Given what I know of my brother, this might very well have been nothing more than the placebo effect. However, I am inclined to disbelieve this possibility, since I know how distressed my brother was when he couldn't practice.
- This does NOT mean that chi can be used in combat. In fact, it's far from it: the physician took a few moments before to concentrate, and the "treatment" took several minutes. In combat, he'd have been pummelled long before any effect could possibly take place.

My point is simply that there are phenomenon not yet explained by science, and that perhaps some of the stories concerning chi are true. I must stress that it is simply contradictory with what we currently know of science, not that it cannot ever be explained scientifically. I disbelieve men who are able to fly using their chi, or again "hit" someone far away using chi (in fact, I believe that "chi" can be explained scientifically.. perhaps something related to blood circulation).

Sorry if this seems a random post, or if I was rambling.