Better Trilogy: TDK or Captain America?

[OutOfBoose]

Not even funny. TDK trilogy BY FAR.

 

[Marvel Knight]

For me Batman Begins is better than The First Avenger. The Dark Knight is better than The Winter Soldier. Civil War is better than The Dark Knight Rises.

So TDK trilogy wins.

But I'll say Civil War being a great film is a bigger accomplishment than anything in the Batman films.

Think of everything Civil War needed to pull off, in only 2 years of production.

That's beyond impressive.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

the only reason I didn't go with TDK trilogy was because I enjoy all 3 cap movies, as opposed to only 2 of the nolan movies

 

[The Joker]

Same.

Or altenatively:

Best Film - The Dark Knight > Civil War
Second Best Film - The Dark Knight Rises > Winter Soldier
Worst Film - Batman Begins > The First Avenger

TDKT still wins.

But I'll say Civil War being a great film is a bigger accomplishment than anything in the Batman films.

Think of everything Civil War needed to pull off, in only 2 years of production.

That's beyond impressive.

It is impressive. But I don't judge an individual movie by what it managed to achieve thanks to scaffolding support from a plethora of other movies from the last 8 years. It's a big reason why BvS failed. They didn't build up their universe first.

At the end of the day, I still find BB better than TFA, TDK better than TWS, and CW better than TDKR. Furthermore, I think The Dark Knight Trilogy is more noteworthy in it's achievement than CW. BB kick started the reboot craze. TDK brought a whole new level of respect to the genre, and is still the gold standard for CBMs 8 years later. It's actually one of the most revered movies in Hollywood. Both of them have inspired movies both inside and outside the CBM genre.

They didn't need to make multiple movies to do that. That's not a knock on the MCU. What they've done is amazing. But to me what the TDK trilogy achieved with a far less number of movies is more impressive.

 

[ripse]

I think Cap Trilogy is more fun & more enjoyed it than Batman Trilogy where is "why so serious"

Cap TFA = BB
Cap TWS > TDK
Cap CW >>> TDKR

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I personally went with the CA series because I find it a bit more enjoyable than the TDK trilogy. While I can't deny TDK trilogy is a great series, I just find it hard to rewatch at times because it can sort of be a slog through some pretty dark and sometimes depressing material. On the other hand, the CA trilogy feels a bit brighter and has a more comic book feel to it, which allows for a bit more rewatchability.

 

[StormC]

Yeah, even just evaluating how much I enjoyed each film individually, TDKT still comes out on top. CW made as good of a go at TDK as any other movie in the genre could, though.

 

[Marvel Knight]

It is impressive. But I don't judge an individual movie by what it managed to achieve thanks to scaffolding support from a plethora of other movies from the last 8 years. It's a big reason why BvS failed. They didn't build up their universe first.

At the end of the day, I still find BB better than TFA, TDK better than TWS, and CW better than TDKR. Furthermore, I think The Dark Knight Trilogy is more noteworthy in it's achievement than CW. BB kick started the reboot craze. TDK brought a whole new level of respect to the genre, and is still the gold standard for CBMs 8 years later. It's actually one of the most revered movies in Hollywood. Both of them have inspired movies both inside and outside the CBM genre.

They didn't need to make multiple movies to do that. That's not a knock on the MCU. What they've done is amazing. But to me what the TDK trilogy achieved with a far less number of movies is more impressive.

Conversely, look at what the MCU has done for the genre. It started the cinematic universe craze. Now basically every studio is trying to ape what Marvel has done.

Civil War was really the culmination of that strategy.

What's really interesting is that CW is project to draw in a bigger box office profit than any of the Nolan Batman films individually (taking into account inflation and budget). That means it could arguably be more popular with audiences.

The Nolan films really had a solid start with BB and TDK. The problem is they dropped the ball hard with TDKR. It, in many ways, undermines all the buildup from the preceding films.

WB is really to blame. They really should have launched a cinematic universe from the Bale Batman instead of retiring him after only about a year or less of being Batman.

The TDK trilogy is great, but it's also wasted potential.

 

[The Joker]

Conversely, look at what the MCU has done for the genre. It started the cinematic universe craze. Now basically every studio is trying to ape what Marvel has done.

Civil War was really the culmination of that strategy.

What's really interesting is that CW is project to draw in a bigger box office profit than any of the Nolan Batman films individually (taking into account inflation and budget). That means it could arguably be more popular with audiences.

The Nolan films really had a solid start with BB and TDK. The problem is they dropped the ball hard with TDKR. It, in many ways, undermines all the buildup from the preceding films.

WB is really to blame. They really should have launched a cinematic universe from the Bale Batman instead of retiring him after only about a year or less of being Batman.

No, The Avengers did that. That's when other studios started trying to ape it. Civil War broke no new boundaries there. What they did do was show up BvS in how to create a successful coherent conflict between heroes.

Lots of movies that are not revered or respected in any significant way have made a ton more money over some of the most loved and respected movies ever. Look at Transformers 2, 3 and 4 for example, they have made more money than most of the MCU. Do you think they're more popular because of that?

Saying TDKR undermines BB and TDK, is like saying the likes or Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 undermine the movies that came before them. A truly good movie stands on it's own two feet and isn't undermined or dependent on it's sequel or a predecessor to be great. For example The Godfather parts 1 and 2 are still cinematic masterpieces in spite of the weak part 3.

WB did absolutely the right thing letting Nolan do his trilogy. He didn't want an expansive universe. WB's problem is they messed up in the way they've been handing their DCEU. It is possible to make a great DC movie that is not directed by Chris Nolan. WB just need to figure out how to do that. It's like Sony with the Spider-Man movies. They had no clue how to do Spidey right without Sam Raimi to steer the ship. When they started muscling in on the creative decisions we got Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man movies.

There is no wasted potential with the TDK trilogy in regards to any potential expansive universe. It works beautifully exactly the way it is.

 

[StormC]

I wouldn't want a cinematic universe based on Nolan Batman. That story really only works in its own setting; there would be no point in establishing a Batman world that is more grounded in reality to have Superman fly into Gotham in Batman 4, not to mention that the trilogy rounded out very conclusively, and although I have a passing interest in a Batman 4 down the road (very unlikely now), it's best to let that sleeping dog lie.

Also, I'm not sure how TDKR dropped the ball. It was critically acclaimed, loved by audiences, financially successful and ended the story as Nolan wanted it to. A vocal minority of fans on the internet disliking the movie does not affect the trilogy's quality or performance whatsoever.

 

[DACrowe]

Conversely, look at what the MCU has done for the genre. It started the cinematic universe craze. Now basically every studio is trying to ape what Marvel has done.

Civil War was really the culmination of that strategy.

What's really interesting is that CW is project to draw in a bigger box office profit than any of the Nolan Batman films individually (taking into account inflation and budget). That means it could arguably be more popular with audiences.

The Nolan films really had a solid start with BB and TDK. The problem is they dropped the ball hard with TDKR. It, in many ways, undermines all the buildup from the preceding films.

WB is really to blame. They really should have launched a cinematic universe from the Bale Batman instead of retiring him after only about a year or less of being Batman.

The TDK trilogy is great, but it's also wasted potential.

Thank God that Warner Bros. never got to launch its shared universe with Christian Bale's Batman. Nolan crafted a massive achievement in cinema, yes including The Dark Knight Rises, and made sure nobody could **** with it after he left.

You realize that WB still courted the idea of putting Bale in BvS. Imagine Bale's Batman being in that catastrophe of a movie for a second... That is why The Dark Knight Rises ended it and made it almost impossible for WB to continue that story... which spared the "shared universe" tainting the one Nolan built. Also, I think many fans overlook something amazingly unique Rises gave the genre, not just on film but in general and including comics: a definitive ending. In other media, Batman and all other superheroes are never allowed to end, because it would hurt the brand. And indeed, you could say that WB allowing Nolan to do that hurt BvS because they had to start over from scratch, as opposed to building on (read: ruining) the Bale/Nolan Batman universe. But he still gave it an ending, which even "endings" in the comics have not since even The Dark Knight Returns is now apparently a trilogy in Frank Miller's eyes.

By comparison, Rises came up with a way to close the curtain on a character that millions found cathartic, though admittedly far fewer Batman comics fans who will never let go of the fact that the comic book Batman would never retire (because then the story is over). By being allowed to do that, we have a sense of finality, which is a remarkable thing in superhero storytelling, and I doubt it will ever occur again in comic book movies within this genre.

As for the trilogy as a whole, what you call "wasted potential" I call historic legacy. The closed system around these films keeps their legacy untarnished, which is why they continue to be the gold standard other superhero movies are measured by years after ending. And I can guarantee that after phase 3 ends, the Avengers quadrilogy will be also compared more to TDKT than anything else. Why? Because its legacy on the genre and in Hollywood continues to grow in legend.

 

[Marvel Knight]

No, The Avengers did that. That's when other studios started trying to ape it.

Saying a movie that drew in a bigger box office is more popular with audiences is an illogical argument. Lots of movies that are not revered or respected in any significant way have made a ton more money over some of the most loved and respected movies ever. Look at Transformers 2, 3 and 4 for example, they have made more money than most of the MCU. Do you think they're more popular because of that?

Saying TDKR undermines BB and TDK, is like saying the likes or Iron Man 2 and Thor 2 undermine the movies that came before them. A truly good movie stands on it's own two feet and isn't undermined or dependent on it's sequel or a predecessor to be great. For example The Godfather parts 1 and 2 are still cinematic masterpieces in spite of the weak part 3.

WB did absolutely the right thing letting Nolan do his trilogy. He didn't want an expansive universe. WB's problem is they messed up in the way they've been handing their DCEU. It is possible to make a great DC movie that is not directed by Chris Nolan. WB just need to figure out how to do that. It's like Sony with the Spider-Man movies. They had no clue how to do Spidey right without Sam Raimi to steer the ship. When they started muscling in on the creative decisions we got Spider-Man 3 and The Amazing Spider-Man movies.

We're looking at a trilogy though, not the standalone movies. TDKR was such a letdown that it taints the TDK trilogy overall.

The decision to allow this trilogy to be a standalone wasn't really that smart. That's why TDKR feels like such an awkward and abrupt end, after BB and TDK did some proper Batman 'year one' setup.

They built such a solid foundation with BB/TDK, it truly was wasted potential to see it all end in TDKR and get rebooted.

Whereas the Cap moves lived up to their potential and exceeded them while building the cinematic universe.

And with regards to Box Office, the Transformers films are definitely popular. They are crowd pleasers. They don't aim to be something more intelligent than what they are. They are schlock, but audiences know that.

Difference is Civil War will get that 1.4 Billion... but also is critically successful as well. Best of both worlds.

 

[StormC]

They built such a solid foundation with BB/TDK, it truly was wasted potential to see it all end in TDKR and get rebooted.

You act like it was a serious option for the Nolan Batman movies to be part of a shared DC universe. It wasn't. Nolan and Bale would have probably walked if that happened. It was never going to be anything but a standalone series.

 

[Marvel Knight]

You act like it was a serious option for the Nolan Batman movies to be part of a shared DC universe. It wasn't. Nolan and Bale would have probably walked if that happened. It was never going to be anything but a standalone series.

Bale would have done it if the price was right. He did McG's Terminator for WB after all.

They could have easily built a cinematic universe from BB/TDK with the right direction and talent behind it, if egos didn't get in the way.

It was such a solid foundation to launch a cinematic universe, perhaps more promising than Marvel's Iron Man. And they squandered it. Nolan buried his own Batman in TDKR. A Batman who likely had less than a year of crime fighting under his belt.

A grounded universe like what we saw in the Nolan films could easily evolve over time to slowly and gradually introduce outworldly elements in a believable manner.

 

[StormC]

They could have easily built a cinematic universe from BB/TDK with the right direction and talent behind it, if egos didn't get in the way.

Not wanting your story and setting to be hijacked by the studio isn't the same as not letting your ego get in the way.

As a huge fan of both the MCU and TDKT, I am perfectly fine with that trilogy being self-contained and would hate to see it be used as a stepping stone for some sort of misplaced greater shared universe.

 

[Snow Queen]

The Dark Knight Trilogy, and it's not a particularly close competition. As a trilogy, there's a bit too much in Captain America that requires viewings of The Avengers films (namely the relationship between Cap and Tony, which even there I thought was handled pretty poorly), and both Winter Soldier and Civil War had weak shoulders to stand on with The First Avenger. I really wish the Russos had worked on that film as well, as I think it would have elevated the trilogy immensely. As is, they do everything they can within their films to make Steve and Bucky's relationship work, but there just wasn't enough in First Avenger to make me care about it nearly as much as I could have. The ending of Winter Soldier would have been a lot more impactful if First Avenger had made me care about Bucky. I don't hold it against Winter Soldier or Civil War as there's nothing the Russos could do in those films to correct this, but it really does hold that trilogy back in my eyes.

 

[DACrowe]

You act like it was a serious option for the Nolan Batman movies to be part of a shared DC universe. It wasn't. Nolan and Bale would have probably walked if that happened. It was never going to be anything but a standalone series.

Bale would have done it if the price was right. He did McG's Terminator for WB after all.

They could have easily built a cinematic universe from BB/TDK with the right direction and talent behind it, if egos didn't get in the way.

It was such a solid foundation to launch a cinematic universe, perhaps more promising than Marvel's Iron Man. And they squandered it. Nolan buried his own Batman in TDKR. A Batman who likely had less than a year of crime fighting under his belt.

A grounded universe like what we saw in the Nolan films could easily evolve over time to slowly and gradually introduce outworldly elements in a believable manner.

And as I said in my other post, that was a blessing. Imagine Zack Snyder ruining Nolan's Batman like that? We dodged a bullet and the legacy of all three movies will grow untainted. That is why this conversation will still be going on in three years when the Avengers 4-part saga gets compared to TDKT. The fact that you have to ask shows that Nolan made the right decision in leaving those movies closed off, as opposed to letting them blur together and be tarnished by inferior films. I think the first Iron Man is often forgotten to be so unique and groundbreaking because its sharp Favreau edges got smoothed into the MCU and after so many movies, folks forgot how special that first effort was.

 

[The Joker]

We're looking at a trilogy though, not the standalone movies. TDKR was such a letdown that it taints the TDK trilogy overall.

According to whom? TDKR was a huge critical and financial success, moreso than most of the MCU. It has strong audience scores. So in what way was it a letdown that doesn't involve living up to your personal taste?

The decision to allow this trilogy to be a standalone wasn't really that smart. That's why TDKR feels like such an awkward and abrupt end, after BB and TDK did some proper Batman 'year one' setup.

It was very smart. This was always intended to be a finite universe. Anyone who thought the movies would continue after TDKR were kidding themselves. You sound like you're projecting your disappointment with WB's current crappy DCEU on Nolan for not continuing and sparing us Snyder's tripe.

Whereas the Cap moves lived up to their potential and exceeded them while building the cinematic universe.

I don't get your logic. Having more movies in the franchise doesn't automatically make them better. The quality of the movies dictates that, not the number of them. Because by that logic the X-Men franchise trumps Cap, Batman and the rest.

And with regards to Box Office, the Transformers films are definitely popular. They are crowd pleasers. They don't aim to be something more intelligent than what they are. They are schlock, but audiences know that.

Difference is Civil War will get that 1.4 Billion... but also is critically successful as well. Best of both worlds.

But you just tried to argue that box office means better, and say TDKR was a big letdown when it actually has in your words, the best of both worlds, a billion box office and critical acclaim. So how can that work for CW but not TDKR?

 

[Dopinder]

I will say this again, the cap movies do not count as a trilogy. It does not make sense to compare it to the TDK trilogy.

 

[jmc]

You can't count Cap as a trilogy.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I will say this again, the cap movies do not count as a trilogy. It does not make sense to compare it to the TDK trilogy.

While true, you can still compare the quality of the three CA movies to the three Nolan Batman movies.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

i don't consider civil war to be cap3, even if it is. as far as i'm concerned as a moviegoer, it's av3. batman wins by default.

 

[Batmannerism]

Okay, here's how it measures up in my book

chapter 1) Captain America TFA v Batman Begins.

Begins by a comfortable margin. Some good bits in CATFA but BB takes it easily for a more complex and well acted potrayal of Batman and his motivations. Cap suffers in comparison for being a much, much simpler character so admittedly there is less work for Evans to do. Regardless in TFA he's pretty stiff.

Begins also has a much stronger ensemble cast. I could go on and on about Begins virtues (e.g. it resurrected cinematic Batman after his utter ruin in Batman and Robin, whereas Cap's ****** 90's films were long forgotten when TFA came along).

However, suffice it to say that for me Batman Begins is the much better origin film.

2) TDK vs TWS.

Oooh. This is close, great action sequences. Yes, the obvious advantage to TWS goes into actual fight choreography, but Nolan was deliberately trying to avoid high kicking and fancy moves in favour of a stripped back style.

I have some issues with TWS' plot and Evans is better as Cap (although he's had some in the role now, with the Avengers under his belt). Meanwhile there are some bits that don't add up in TDK.

All in all I'm going to say a tie, two real stand-outs in the superhero genre, and great action movies in their own right.


3) Civil War vs The Dark Knight Rises.

Civil War takes this pretty handily. In terms of pacing and character it's a better film - yes it's crowded but it does a good job with all those characters.

Bane is simply a disaster - a terribly wasted opportunity, as soon as Hardy was rumoured to be in TDKR I jumped up and said "Bane !" but the mask was a terrible idea, as was the voice. The overall characterisation wasn't bad but the voice undid all his menace.

Again, fight choreography was inferior in TDKR, and not because it was stripped back but because it was sloppy (as in phantom punches).

Nolan got very ambitious but really missed the mark, whereas the Russo bros nailed it. A few too many plot holes and facepalm moments in TDKT, sure there are holes in CW too, but the slick storytelling allows us to ignore them.

The only advantages I will give to TDKR is this - that it had a stronger ending montage that had greater emotional resonance AND it had the balls to be a real ending to the Batman story.

CONCLUSION:

So all in all we have a tie ! Chapter 1 goes to TDKT, Chapter 2 a tie, Chapter 3 a clear win for CW.

One thing I will say about TDKT is that it is a complete story with strong character arcs- CW is an ongoing adventure saga, and in some ways that reduces the impact of the events.

Also, let's be honest CW doesn't really feel like a Captain America film, but more like an Avengers film ( I mean, it would be like Batman bringing in the entire Justice League for half of one of his films and having them fight each other, with one side lead by him and Robin and the other side lead by Superman - ****, that would have been a better movie than Batman v Superman, just as long as Snyder didn't do it ! )
What I'm saying is that Calling TFA, TWS and CW a trilogy seems to be a bit incorrect, whereas TDKT was always a trilogy and intended that way from the beginning (sadly it's final chapter was a bit weak).


I think Bale takes it over Evans in every way - although Evans gets better as the movies progress - EXCEPT for the Bat-voice, that was ridiculous !

But still, given how great CW was I really have to call this one a tie, wish you'd had that option in the poll !

Yup, to reiterate, a tie.

 

[hafizbat]

The Dark Knight Trilogy, and it's not a particularly close competition. As a trilogy, there's a bit too much in Captain America that requires viewings of The Avengers films (namely the relationship between Cap and Tony, which even there I thought was handled pretty poorly), and both Winter Soldier and Civil War had weak shoulders to stand on with The First Avenger. I really wish the Russos had worked on that film as well, as I think it would have elevated the trilogy immensely. As is, they do everything they can within their films to make Steve and Bucky's relationship work, but there just wasn't enough in First Avenger to make me care about it nearly as much as I could have. The ending of Winter Soldier would have been a lot more impactful if First Avenger had made me care about Bucky. I don't hold it against Winter Soldier or Civil War as there's nothing the Russos could do in those films to correct this, but it really does hold that trilogy back in my eyes.

Agreed. While TFA has a special place in my heart, it doesn't do nearly enough with the Cap/Bucky relationship, which is a fatal flaw considering how integral that relationship is in the Russo movies.

The one "I'm with you til the end of the line" flashback scene in TWS and the "Remember when we spent our train money...on hotdogs" dialogue in CW alone does more to sell their friendship than the entirety of TFA, when they were actually together.

 

[SpideyZERO]

TDKT of course. It is a complete story

But Cap is a close second. Both are awesome