BOUGHT/THOUGHT Thread for 6/14/06: SPOILERS Inside!

Dread

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Naturally, this is a big week for the BOUGHT/THOUGHT, what with the major revelations of CIVIL WAR #2 (even though a few newspapers broke the story before most comic shops were even open, and the last issue of ASM made it rather obvious; at least half of the posters in the 2-3 major Marvel Forums CW topic saw it coming, including myself), but we also have other products out there, like DC's weekly serial, and a relaunch of some Western comic stories, which as a genre have majorly fallen away from comics since the 80's.

And for those keeping track, NEW AVENGERS is running a week behind schedule (and considering lateness bungled some of the end of DC's INFINITE CRISIS, how it'll bode for Marvel's CW, especially since one of Marvel's biggest failings is refusing to learn from DC's mistakes on any level), and MOON KNIGHT #3 is at least 2-3 weeks late, and counting. ULTIMATES 2 #11 ships next week, and of course ALL-STAR SUPERMAN and ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK ship on the 12th of "whenever we get them".

As always, Dread offers 24k spoilers.

DREAD'S BOUGHT/THOUGHT FOR 6/14/06:

52 WEEK #6:
A rock solid issue of DC's serial comic, that shoots the "DC's an unrealistic universe" arguement as hypocritical bull****. The major plotline of the issue are the Green Lanterns (Hal and Stewart basically) clashing with metahumans from China because they're violating airspace in chasing Evil Star. Black Adam soon lends a hand because his country's become an ally of China, and the Rocket Red's from Russia hold the line for the Lantern's, claiming THEM as allies (Adam claims it will be temporary, as he plays to sweet-talk Russia into an alliance too). All of this is very realistic of international relations and alliances, and something that'd REALLY happen if all of these nations could get hold of metahuman warriors. The Chinese strike-team, according to WIZARD, are creations of Grant Morrison, one of the 5 co-writers, and they bare his mark of "weirdo powers with long, ridiculous names". All of these nations seeing the GL's as strictly representing America and not wanting unauthorized "raids" across their boundaries is very realistic, and proving that DC does have their eye on current events in-between straight-on superheroism; they simply don't RELY on current events 100% like Marvel usually chooses to do (and have done since the Silver Age, when Commies = Instant Adversary). DC usually stopped that stuff after WW2. Of course, the Green Lanterns represent an intergalactic force, but still; both Hal and Stewart (and heck, Kyle and Guy) are Americans, and both have served on the Justice League of AMERICA for long stretches, so assuming them to be equal to an unauthoritzed military flight over "contested airspace" is fine, and made for great dramatic tension. The only quibble are that the names of the Chinese strike team are, well, long and ridiculous. The other plot-point has Booster Gold hiring out actors to pose as supervillians for him to up his rep, and then a visit to a time-scientist's lab shows that "time is warped" out of wack after the "crisis", and Booster's apparently responsible! Talk about a cliffhanger (that WASN'T predicted weeks ago). Oh, and a mysterious force is still keeping eye on mad scientist technology. 52 naturally a serial starring over a dozen rotating characters that seem to change every issue (nothing this week on Montoya and Question, or Supergirl or Ralph Dibney for instance), and some issues seem to be moving slowly, even with a year's worth of story to tell. But almost 2 months in and I've been enjoying it just fine, and I'm a very casual DC fan (and a more hardcore "Marvel Zombie" at heart). Its not as taunt as something like "24" or LOST is said to be most issues, but it still has plenty of old serial stuff to keep you interested. Its the best of the DCU and its NOT relying on their big three; when was the last time Marvel did that?

CIVIL WAR #2: The last issue of "a Marvel Comics Event in 7 parts" was a good issue by Millar, helped to no end by the fact that the issue's major spoiler, which was the Stamford Incident, was not a surprise and had been well known for months. The major spoiler of this issue wasn't quite as well-known but was fairly obvious by how the winds were shifting after the last issue of ASM a few weeks ago, and many of us, myself included, felt that this act was inevitable; Spider-Man revealing his identity to the media (shortly after his ally and "master", Iron Man, did so). To be fair to IM supporters, Peter was all but willing to go underground and was very conflicted about what was being asked of him until Aunt May and MJ sort of encouraged him to go public, even though the SHRA doesn't require superheroes to PUBLICALLY reveal their ID's; simply ID themselves to the government, like agents do. However, it appears that in CW's storyline, neither the Marvel public nor the writers can see the difference; heroes who obey the SHRA but don't unmask to the public are apparently "hypocrites", as FRONTLINE #1 put it. That, frankly, is mind-bogglingly naive. That would make any undercover cop or government intelligence agent, or in the UK, a Secret Service agent, a "hypocrite". In the real world, leaking an agent's identity turned into a massive scandal for "Scooter" Libby and other Bush Administration folks; in the MU, superhero agents are apparently EXPECTED to out themselves. Still, to be fair, I'd rather CW bungle some, but not all of their ideas, vs. Bendis' HOM, which just had HEAPLOADS of wasted potential. Plus, its nice to see a Marvel event that's not exclusively an X-event for a change. That's been rare in the past decade (ONSLAUGHT, for instance, began and ended with the X-books and mostly dealt with stuff from them). Still, at this point DC seems to be better at keeping their intimate details of their main "event" book a better kept secret; could people "forsee" things in an average issue of IC coming as easily as they can for CW so far? I'd say no.

Thankfully, Mark Millar is not in the same pit as Bendis or Brubaker (circa DEADLY GENESIS) were at the fact that most of his major reveals are not big secrets by the time the issue hits the stands. CW #2 offers more, and stuff I found mightily entertaining. It had Reed and Sue a bit divided over the SHRA as Reed is in full "narc" mode alongside "Wife-Beater" Pym and Iron Man, anticipating a full superhero crisis if the SHRA doesn't become law and seeing only half-interested in Johnny Storm's injuries. Even though Reed's been a narc before, I sort of found his almost complete seperation from his family a bit disturbing. One would think he'd be more concerned about what happened to Johnny, or how Sue and his "good friend" Ben feel. Aren't the Fantastic Four "Marvel's first family"? They don't seem like much of one here. But the other big bit about the issue is Captain America's "resistance" movement, which is going around and beating down rogue supervillians (Vulture & Grim Reaper for instance), perhaps explaining why they've all but been ignoring this MAJOR oppurtunity to beat their foes, exploit the gov't or commit crimes. DC villians in contrast seemed much more organized in IC, but that is because DC isn't afraid of admitting that things like "good" and "evil" actually exist; Marvel, in a typically stereotypical Liberal mindset, excuse "evil" by pretending it doesn't exist, and the whole world is "gray". Yeah, I'll bet Hitler really loved his dog, and Osama Bin Ladin is good to his mommy somewhere. Yes, most of the world has some gray, but using that as an excuse to blur the line between heroes and villians is a dangerous message. But I got sidetracked. After stomping some villian-butt, Cap's crew stages a daring rescue when the Young Avengers are hunted down and arrested by SHIELD agents after foiling a mugging. Naturally, as YA is hideously late (like EVERY comic, every one, ever written by a TV/movie writer), CW takes place after it, when Patriot has survived his Kree blast and somehow regained his "bulletproof" supersoldier powers (the main theories are: Blood-Transfusion, Sentry-Healing, or Wiccan Healing). Very noticeable is that speedster Thomas was nowhere to be found; does this mean he quits the team after being shoehorned into the last few issues? Cap's covert "resistance" force includes Falcon (his longtime partner), Luke Cage, Cloak & Dagger, Hercules, Cable, and I belive Bill Foster (a guy on the panel looked like him). In other CW tie-ins, the New Warriors (or at least Rage and Justice) are on Cap's side, as is Wolverine (but he is busy hunting down Nitro, a task too "unimportent" for the almighty SHIELD or Iron Man). And presumably Nick Fury, who is still underground circa SECRET WAR (despite continuity errors published to the contrary, which were retroactively blamed on "LMD's", much as Xena in THE SIMPSONS blamed episode errors on "magicians" once). As well as Daredevil, or "new DD who is possibly Hawkeye, although Swordsman turned out not to be Hawkeye over in T-Bolts". It was good seeing Cap going undercover and willing to rescue the YA, despite the fact that he's disapproved of them being heroes before. Of course, one could say that going "underground" could threaten Cap's legitmacy as he really has no option to thwarting SHRA unless he "convinces" the government to reconsider it, which would amount to "vigilantes" threatening the gov't. On the other hand, the anti-SHRA arguement is easily the Liberal agruement, and Marvel's never made a secret about their Left bias (nor do most other comics, including DC). Disagreeing with your country in the name of morals is the new black, and the best way for Cap to prove he loves America is by turning against it when he feels the country is headed in the wrong direction; he's done it twice before, both during administrations that, by sheer coincidence, were not Democrats (namely Reagan, that evil warlord). So just because I'm not claiming that all of this isn't out of character doesn't mean I don't see the writing on the wall.

The big dilemma of the story is this: If SHRA remains indefinately, it would mean the end of the Marvel Superhero genre as we know it, as all heroes would either be super-agents like SHIELD in costumes, living in hi-tech training facilities, or hunted anti-heroes like Punisher, with nothing in-between. The fact that superheroes are not all government agents is one of the key details to what makes the superhero genre work, and one doubts Marvel would be suicidal enough to not realize that. On the other hand, barring some major event, if a "group of vigilantes" are able to bully or threaten the government into reconsidering, one could claim it not as "realistic", as because the anti-SHRA can't brake the 4th wall and go, "we can't register because the medium demands otherwise", so all they are left with is "tradition". Of course, they could make the case about how historically corrupt the MU's gov't often is (turning against heroes for minor reasons while always willing to "pardon" or deputize whatever supervillian feels like towing the line, albeit temporarialy), or how easy it would be for supervillians to discover their identities and loved ones if they are all government employees through bribes, leaks, or hacking. But so far they haven't. And it is because of this dilemma that I wonder if Marvel actually has an "end" to this event, or is just using this to bridge the gap to ANOTHER event, much like HOM was little more than a primer for DECIMATION. If so, that's very lame, and a major cop-out. I simply fear Marvel writing themselves into a corner with CW, despite how "hot" it is.

Ah, yes, and Spider-Man revealing his identity. I already stated that requiring heroes who fully obey the SHRA and reveal their ID's to the government to also do it publically (and make their enemies' jobs a million times easier) is unfair and very naive. And it also takes Spider-Man outside of his realm of existance and into something that feels, well, generic. Not only is he living in an ivory tower in the sky, with nanobot armor, the right-hand of a psuedo politician-armored hero and member of his planet's premire superhero team, but now he is also an instant celebrity. He's basically Booster Gold with a family now. Or perhaps The Flash, back when his own ID was public. The problem, of course, is that those things weren't what made Spider-Man popular in the first place. What made him popular was his ability to mingle a soap opera lifestyle that was relatable to most readers while also mixing in a lot of superhero drama. Poor Peter would struggle to pay the bills, live an honest life and take care of May, but would have to miss his hot date with MJ because Shocker was robbing the mint again. Everyone knows what its like to have a day turn against you, and that's what Spider-Man had. Joe Q blames the loss of this on the simple act of "marrying a supermodel", but that was really nothing that couldn't have worked; in fact, it worked well since the 80's to the point where the cartoons and movies since couldn't have FUNCTIONED without MJ being key to Spidey's world. Using the Flash as an example, outing his ID proved to be a shocking plot development and one that "opened new doors for stories"...for about 1-2 years. Then it was obvious that DC regretted the decision, and so they did some major "cosmic baloney" to undo it and erase that knowledge from the minds of the general public (which wasn't a picnic for Wally either). The same will happen to Spider-Man. We'll have the "usual gang of people who support everything" in and outside Marvel talking about what a great chance this is for Peter to grow, and for some interesting plot developments to occur because of it, and they'd be right; assuming the Spider-writers use it efficiently (which, after THE OTHER, is debatable). But after 1-2 years, especially when SPIDER-MAN 3 is hitting theatres and Spidey's still a secret identity hero and adheres to most of his "formula", Marvel will backpeddle, and need an "out". Some say Loki, others say Dr. Strange, but it all amounts to "cosmic baloney" that makes you go, "What was the point? Couldn't Marvel's editorial staff forsee the effects of their own medium, or are they so eager to make bucks that they string us along anyway?" The reveal wasn't even a huge shocker, as I stated, the last ASM issue made it all but inevitable. Its simply a shame that I've not read Spider-books on a regular basis for years because they kept bungling him in the name to "reinvent" him or "change" something, and that process continues, into the point where Spider-Man is now all but generic. Incidentally, Peter now claims he started his career at 15, even though past sources and comics clearly stated him as being 16. The point? In Marvel time, "10 years" have passed since 1961 and now, which means that if Peter started at 16, he's now 26, maybe almost 27 -- gasp, "pushing" 30! Whereas if he was 15, he is now 25, which is apparently "safer".

Hence is the problem with "events" in the comic medium. American comics remain loyal to a "neverending story", and that means that you can't stretch a property too far from what made it work in the first place, or it becomes unrecognizable. But "events" only work if they mean permanent change, and Marvel's shown that anything from the past, present, or future can be undone at a whim with a "retcon" if it means getting another book in the Top 10. Rely on it too much and you get apathy.

Still, I liked CW #2, because despite it all, Millar gives the story enough punch that it entertains despite itself. And McNiven's art is fine as usual. Marvel may write itself into a loopy corner, but at least they'll succeed in the short term; that beats HOM, which failed in the long-term AND the short-term. I just wish Marvel would sometimes quit being afraid of "straightfoward superheroism" and quit relying on knee-jerk criticism to Conservative administrations to give their stories "political edge". And I wish they'd learn from mistakes, both their's and DC's, better than they usually do. Admittedly, J.J.'s initial reaction is priceless. But is one great but passing moment or two worth rewriting Spidey's entire purpose?

MIGHT MARVEL WESTERN: TWO-GUN KID #1: Another line of Marvel "5th week" books, much like I HEART MARVEL for Valentine's day and MARVEL MONSTERS for Halloween (I'm waiting for DRUNKARD COMICS for St.Pattie's day), this time its Westerns, a genre that's been hardly as hot in comics than it was in the 50's-70's. I bought the book because Slott writes the lead story about Two-Gun Kid's search for a werewolf with Shulkie that ties into a past adventure, and its a good, servicable story. A writer best known for "being funny", it was actually good to see him tell a more straight-foward superhero story, and do it well. Why? Because he's not afraid of the requirements of the genre, nor does he feel they need to be changed, but embraced. He uses the corny ol' Western slang. He's not about being "edgy" and making Rawhide Kid gay so that newspapers talk about it. He's just about telling an enjoyble yarn and does it well. Hell, after this I'd love to see him write an "event" book, just to see what happens. The only downer is the ending is pretty much, "would you be interested in buying SHE-HULK #11?", and the answer it no, because I haven't been buying it all along. Still, Slott'll have to do something to keep interest and sales on SHE-HULK going, especially after THE THING unfortunately tanked (a shame). Still, an enjoyable, carefree, no-angst superhero yarn from Slott. In the age of "events", his work is always appreciated. Maybe I'd give SHE-HULK #8 a try, if only I could find it.

ULTIMATE X-MEN #71: "The Adventures of Kirkman's Mary Sue", or, "Phoenix, Part 3". While Phoenix gets title billing, her plotline seems to have become the B-plotline to hyping up Kirkman's new X-Man Magician, who has evolved from a seemingly generic character who needed fleshing, to an outright "Mary Sue" in the fashion that makes X-23 and almost every "original X-character" made at Fanfiction.net look like gold in comparison. Elliot's appearence is generic, costume is generic, his powers are seemingly limitless (even moreso than Freedom Ring over in MTU, who has the exact same power and almost the exact same problems), and of course he gets to save the day against Blob. The Brotherhood are wrapped up and the mystery of Phoenix continues, as the tests seem to "confirm" that Jean's not the being that Lilandra is looking for and is merely a multiple personality psychic (with a scene that looked very familiar after X3). However, the ending confirmed Lilandra's man Gerald as a spy for the Hellfire Club who confirms that Jean is Phoenix. Its an ending-that's-not-an-ending and merely feels like the midway point to a longer arc. Still, Kirkman writes the dialogue and action efficiently enough, and Cyclops gets the most action that he's had in the title in YEARS. On the downside, Kirkman's not as strong on the title as Vaughan was, and his throat-ramming of Magician down our throats has officially worn thin. And while Oliver isn't the worst artist the title's had, his style is not the best. And why was Blob explaining his powers to his opponents like it was 1963 all over again? I've usually been a supporter of Kirkman before, but when he slacks a bit, it seems to show.
 
Dread you notice, a good chunk of the black superheroes are on Cap's side of the CivilWar?
 
BOUGHT:
52 Week 6
Annihilation Super Skrull 3
Batman Legends of the Dark Knight 207
Black Panther 16
Cable Deadpool 29
Civil War 2
Crisis Aftermath 5
DMZ 8
Exiles 82
Four 30 (Final Issue)
Invincible 32
Marvel Romance Redux Love is a 4-Letter Word
Marvel Westerns Two Gun Kid
Ms. Marvel 4
Nightwing 121
Powers 18
Sensational Spider-Man 27
Spider-Girl 99
Squadron Supreme 4
Superman 653
Superman Returns Ma Kent
Thunderbolts 103
Ultimate X-Men 71
Wolverine Origins 3
X-Statix Presents Dead Girl 5

THOUGHT:
52 Week 6 - Now things are starting to take shape and looking very interesting. Plus, bits of DC history I actually know! Gotta love that.

Cable Deadpool 29 - Cable takes over a country and Domino doesn't know how to react. On one hand, she wants to stop him. On the other, she doesn't want to want to stop him. A good story adding to the tear in Cable's own little universe that will be accentuated no doubt in next month's Civil War crossover.

Civil War 2 - Yes, the unthinkable has happened! Dunno much how I feel about it. Personally, think it was a bad move. We'll have to see how the writers handle it once Civil War ends. But given the current state of Marvel in this area, I think I'll be hoping for one of the dreaded retcons. The rest of the issue, though, was a pretty damn good story. Loving Cap's resistence movement.

Exiles 82 - And so an era of Exiles comes to a close. Morph is still on the team (somewhat) and they've agreed to stick together and finish fixing realities. All I have to say is Claremont better not frig up a winning formula like he frigged up the X-Men.

Four 30 (Final Issue) - It's time for another FF open house, and the question of if they're more human or super hero comes up again. A nice final issue. No big fights, but decent characterizations. The book started off pretty rough with that risky going bankrupt angle, but it slowly found its footing. Unfortunately, it was too slow to save it. And just when did Ben and Alicia get back together...?

Invincible 32 - A quiet issue before the storm as what looks like an old foe returns. Not to mention, finally, the tie in to MTU! One of these days I'll have to buy the trades (since single issues are so damn expensive!) of the early issues so I can get a clue on what th' hell is goin' on.

Marvel Westerns Two Gun Kid - Another finely crafted Slott tale, taking place between events in She-Hulk. Not to mention a back-up tale that sure to get a chuckle out of most. One thing I don't get; why reprint a Rawhide Kid comic instead of an old Two-Gun appearance? Ah well, a reprint's a reprint and they're always a good read.

Ms. Marvel 4 - More fallout from the House of M! I don't recognize this Traveller guy, but whenever you got Doc Strange and the Wand of Watoomb, you know the supernatural ****'s gonna hit the fan.

Nightwing 121 - Okay, this issue kinda sucked. The bad guy isn't reall all that great and there's one too many Nightwings running around. I mean, the handling of Cheyenne becoming a super hero was done pretty poorly. It needed some serious expansion in order to make any sense. As of now, I think Jones was just satisfying a fetish of some kind.

Spider-Girl 99 - Now this is a cliffhanger! The vision comes to pass (was she wearing that costume in it? I don't recall) as we built up to the climactic final issue. It'll be a shame to see this series go. One less QUALITY book being published.

Squadron Supreme 4 - Questions arise about their mission and a backstory to one of the members. At least the changeover from MAX didn't effect the edge of the series much.

Superman 653 - The Kryptonian ship plot was a bit too Silver Age for my tastes, but it did provide a nicely scripted battle. Two more months until the big guys take over, and then we'll really see some action.

Superman Returns Ma Kent - Filling in the gaps between the first movie and the backstory to the new movie. Not a bad story. Not much happens, it's just to give a bigger picture to the story they've created as a whole.

Thunderbolts 103 - Some good team moments in this one, and a nice surprise ending. Although, yet another continuity glitch; Boomerang in his old attire while he was sporting Armani in Underworld. Ah well.

Ultimate X-Men 71 - Looks like the Shi'ar ain't totally on the up and up and the Phoenix is a very real threat. Gonna love to see what the real truth behind the Ultimate Phoenix is. Too bad I'm lost on little references to past arcs since I used to avoid this like the plague.

Wolverine Origins 3 - We learn Wolvie's ties to Nuke and that he may've been more bad than good in his past...even more so than what's already been hinted. Hopefully Way's got a good, clear picture of things planned out so this series doesn't turn into a bust. Oh, and Cap's able to take a break from being an outlaw to taking Wolvie down for the government.
 
deemar325 said:
Dread you notice, a good chunk of the black superheroes are on Cap's side of the CivilWar?
Yes, I just didn't feel like noting "race" in the above narrative. But yeah, Falcon, Luke Cage, Patriot (and the YA), Cloak, and apparently Bill Foster are both on Cap's anti-SHRA side. It remains to be seen what side Black Panther takes, but he may take a stance of "noninvolvement unless you threaten Wakanda" sort of thing. On the other hand, as Black Panther has been an active hero in the U.S.A. for long periods of time, I could see some agents perhaps giving him trouble. I could suppose that perhaps that is also a sign of the anti-SHRA being the "left" opinion, with the pro-SHRA being the "right".

Also, notice that the SHIELD agents seemed to do more collatoral damage trying to arrest Patriot and the YA than if they'd let him go? All those shots and gas bursts (and falling glass) could have injured people realistically, but the story didn't demand it. It helped show that enforcing the SHRA could mean making villians out of "people who save lives every day" like Cap said.

Its a shame that the supervillians aren't being more pro-active, although I guess Cap's squad is doing some "pre-emptive strikes" to keep that from happening. It'd been a while since Cap did some Ops stuff. Its just sad that he usually disregards his own political clout; if he gave some speaches to the public, some may listen. On the other hand, Hill's agents had no qualms with being ordered to "take him down" last issue; one could maybe have pictured some agents going, "Wait, this is CAPTAIN AMERICA here", but no. Maybe that is due to the story, Millar's style (he writes Ultimate Cap as an all-soldier, no finesse kinda guy), or the fact that Marvel is reluctant to have a lot of their heroes being the "sun-drenched public kind" like many of DC's stars are. Plus, it maintains Iron Man and the SHRA's "advantage" of public opinion by being more open about that, despite the fact that Cap should have some PR too. Granted, CW has another 5 parts, with a lot of crossover chapters left, so who knows.
 
I didn't appreciate that X-23 crack. She's bein' shaped up to be a good character, especially in New X-Men.
 
Bought

Wolverine Origins #3 - Wolverine -vs- Nuke, more backdrop into Logan's and Nuke's shared past. And Captain America shows up in the end. I don't have a problem with Steve Dillon's pencils, put i don't think this is his type of story. This book needs a more hmmm, dirty gritty styled penciler. Overall was okay.

Ultimate X-men #71 - Finding myself less and less interested in the whole ultimate storyline and will probably be dropping this by #75 if it doesn't pick up and get more interesting. Not likeing the story or the art.

Ms. Marvel #4 - Enjoying this book rather nicely. The art the story. Carol gets a visiter from the House of M, beats the snot out of him and then gives him over to Dr. Strange, who in turns, gets the snot beat out of him. De La Torre draws a nice Carol. hmmmm.

Also bought...........
Cable & Deadpool #29
Exiles #82
Nightwing#121
Civil War #2
 
WOLVERINE25TH said:
I didn't appreciate that X-23 crack. She's bein' shaped up to be a good character, especially in New X-Men.
Oh? I haven't read much of her MU appearences, save MTU. I just never was really interested in her.
 
No, but I'm sick of people shootin' down characters before given a chance. Aside from her origin, she's done nuttin' to earn any scrutiny like she's gotten. And as Dread's pointed out, those views of her keep on even though nobody's bothered to follow and see her evolution. And I know you haven't, Dread, which's why I'd hate to see a glimmer of ignorance creep into yer posts.

It's not like with Spider-Man where we have bad idea after bad idea to make us weary of th' next idea.
 
My point was about Ultimate Magician being rather stale anyway. I'm debating whether he is better, worse, or the same as the last "original" Ultimate character, which was Geldoff from USM.
 
So did I, what I'm sayin' is she has a clone stigma which I can understand people crappin' on 'cause of th' Clone Saga and it bein' cliche or whatever else.
 
Dread said:
Yes, I just didn't feel like noting "race" in the above narrative. But yeah, Falcon, Luke Cage, Patriot (and the YA), Cloak, and apparently Bill Foster are both on Cap's anti-SHRA side. It remains to be seen what side Black Panther takes, but he may take a stance of "noninvolvement unless you threaten Wakanda" sort of thing. On the other hand, as Black Panther has been an active hero in the U.S.A. for long periods of time, I could see some agents perhaps giving him trouble. I could suppose that perhaps that is also a sign of the anti-SHRA being the "left" opinion, with the pro-SHRA being the "right".

Also, notice that the SHIELD agents seemed to do more collatoral damage trying to arrest Patriot and the YA than if they'd let him go? All those shots and gas bursts (and falling glass) could have injured people realistically, but the story didn't demand it. It helped show that enforcing the SHRA could mean making villians out of "people who save lives every day" like Cap said.

Its a shame that the supervillians aren't being more pro-active, although I guess Cap's squad is doing some "pre-emptive strikes" to keep that from happening. It'd been a while since Cap did some Ops stuff. Its just sad that he usually disregards his own political clout; if he gave some speaches to the public, some may listen. On the other hand, Hill's agents had no qualms with being ordered to "take him down" last issue; one could maybe have pictured some agents going, "Wait, this is CAPTAIN AMERICA here", but no. Maybe that is due to the story, Millar's style (he writes Ultimate Cap as an all-soldier, no finesse kinda guy), or the fact that Marvel is reluctant to have a lot of their heroes being the "sun-drenched public kind" like many of DC's stars are. Plus, it maintains Iron Man and the SHRA's "advantage" of public opinion by being more open about that, despite the fact that Cap should have some PR too. Granted, CW has another 5 parts, with a lot of crossover chapters left, so who knows.

I just found it interesting, although truth be told I'd think most black superheroes would be on the anti-SHRA side. We're naturaly paranoid of the government to begin with.

Cap getting no play with the media, I think it was Agent Hill's intent from the get-go to make Cap a fugitive, she seems to have it in for Cap and anything to do with Nick Fury. This all could turn out to be a ruse by some supervillian like RedSkull or Kang.

Who knows?

Either way I can't wait for Agent Hill to get her comeuppance.
 
WOLVERINE25TH said:
No, but I'm sick of people shootin' down characters before given a chance. Aside from her origin, she's done nuttin' to earn any scrutiny like she's gotten. And as Dread's pointed out, those views of her keep on even though nobody's bothered to follow and see her evolution. And I know you haven't, Dread, which's why I'd hate to see a glimmer of ignorance creep into yer posts.

It's not like with Spider-Man where we have bad idea after bad idea to make us weary of th' next idea.

I know very who she is and I find her to be nothing more than a 'ATM' character, What could be better than Wolverine? Wolverine with boobs.

Everything I've read about her is boring and she is a pretty bland character aside from the claws, It's like why try to create a unique and original character when you can ride off of Spider-man or Wolverine's coat tails?
 
Actually, Deemar, if ya read New X-Men, she's actually becomin' more like Classic Wolvie than Wolvie's been in a loooooooooong time. Frankly, I'm glad fer that.
 
Dread said:
My point was about Ultimate Magician being rather stale anyway. I'm debating whether he is better, worse, or the same as the last "original" Ultimate character, which was Geldoff from USM.

He's leagues better than Geldoff, but it's not saying much.
 
WOLVERINE25TH said:
So did I, what I'm sayin' is she has a clone stigma which I can understand people crappin' on 'cause of th' Clone Saga and it bein' cliche or whatever else.


Ah, okay I understand what you meant now. Yeah, I figured people would becuase of that. Didn't they mix Woverine's DNA with the mothers though? I forget how that part went down, but if it was something like that then it would make her more his daughter then clone. I think of her as his daughter.
 
WOLVERINE25TH said:
Actually, Deemar, if ya read New X-Men, she's actually becomin' more like Classic Wolvie than Wolvie's been in a loooooooooong time. Frankly, I'm glad fer that.

That's my whole point, she's just gonna rehash all the story beats of yore from Wolverine's past stories wrapped in a bright new shiny bow. Especially now that Marvel is revealing so much of Logan's actually history.

but who knows she may grow on me, I doubt it, but who knows?
 
Dread, read X-23's mini and let me know what you think. I am geniunely interested.
 
Doc Destruction said:
Dread, read X-23's mini and let me know what you think. I am geniunely interested.
Plus, well, it was my idea that a general consensus on the boards was that X-23 wasn't as hot as Marvel claimed, so I was trying to say that for people who complain about her, Kirkman's Magician is shaping up to be far worse.

I didn't mind her in Kirkman's "LEAGUE OF LOSERS" MTU arc, although she was a bit OOC there. And that story's out of continuity anyway.
 
deemar325 said:
That's my whole point, she's just gonna rehash all the story beats of yore from Wolverine's past stories wrapped in a bright new shiny bow.


So far her past has been alot diffrent, aside from the fact they were both at the Facility.
 
You read me wrong, bub. I'm not sayin' she's gonna be a rehash, but she will bring somethin' back that's been missin' fer a long time; good, classic Wolverine. Much like what Spider-Girl did fer Spidey. And yeah, she was outta character in MTU. Big time. And technically it was RENDERED out of continuity.
 
I have to admit, I bought that last issue of New X-Men, and it was pretty damn good. I'm willing to give her a try.
 
WOLVERINE25TH said:
No, but I'm sick of people shootin' down characters before given a chance. Aside from her origin, she's done nuttin' to earn any scrutiny like she's gotten. And as Dread's pointed out, those views of her keep on even though nobody's bothered to follow and see her evolution. And I know you haven't, Dread, which's why I'd hate to see a glimmer of ignorance creep into yer posts.

It's not like with Spider-Man where we have bad idea after bad idea to make us weary of th' next idea.

I agree with you Wolverine, most people are not giving her a chance past "Great, another Wolverine", which is not the case. In New X Men, she is becoming one of the more interesting additions.

But Dread, I agree, so far it turns out that Original Ultimate characters have not been more than ho-hum creations.
 

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