BOUGHT/THOUGHT Thread for 6/21/06: SPOILERS Inside!

[Sin Eater]

I've known this since NA #2, which I think still holds the cake for their worst issue for me (and that's saying something). DISASSEMBLED was nothing to write home about. I agree, NA has become a primer for whatever Marvel's doing with their universe that year/month.

According to an interview Quesada gave for ULTIMATE AVENGERS, it seemed to me that getting Spider-Man & Wolverine on the Avengers was a key point for NA regardless of who was writing it. Naturally, the problem is that under Bendis, both they and a good bunch of the team itself don't do very much in their own book. Maybe he feels himself too "superior" for ol' superhero formula.

I'd be interested if Bendis took a few issues off of NA just to see if the sales held up without him. And to see someone else handle the team. Because nearly everyone else who uses them in other books seems to do better with them. JMS, Heinberg, anyone. But Bendis has considerable namepower, and while Marvel likes to deny it, yet at the same time capitilize on it, a writer's name is what can sell a lot of books, regardless of what it is.

Jeph Loeb, before he switched to Marvel, had the best example of this from a WIZARD interview he did with Geoff Johns, Mark Millar, and Bendis: "You're telling me that if you had Millar writing AQUAMAN with Andy Kubert on art, it wouldn't be a Top Ten book? It has nothing to do with the characters." or words to that effect.

Brubaker and Lark didn't affect sales on Daredevil when they replaced Bendis and Maleev, and for some reason, Bru's name isn't a big seller yet, despite his track record of excellence . I think sales would not be affected with NA, because the main selling points are Wolverine and Spider-Man and the fact that it's Marvel's flagship book now. I wish Brubaker was writing the book instead of Uncanny X-Men, and I wish they'd ship Bendis off to another book where his limited skills wouldn't be so glaring. Ugghhh!

 

[Dread]

I agree with Loeb.

Loeb's a smart guy, and while his stories vary from good, bad, and everything in-between, he's not "afraid" of the basics as a lot of other writers are in the medium (who feel the need to almost apologize for superheroism), and I look foward to seeing what he does in ULTIMATES 3. Which, at this rate, should start around Christmas, 2007.

Brubaker and Lark didn't affect sales on Daredevil when they replaced Bendis and Maleev, and for some reason, Bru's name isn't a big seller yet, despite his track record of excellence . I think sales would not be affected with NA, because the main selling points are Wolverine and Spider-Man and the fact that it's Marvel's flagship book now. I wish Brubaker was writing the book instead of Uncanny X-Men, and I wish they'd ship Bendis off to another book where his limited skills wouldn't be so glaring. Ugghhh!

To be fair, Brubaker's DEADLY GENESIS title wasn't all that hot. I hear DAREDEVIL and CAPTAIN AMERICA are his better works, although with DD, all you have to do is write, "Matt's life gets worse, repeat", whereas reviving Cap I saw as a bigger challenge. But, yeah, his "big franchise" book was DEADLY GENESIS, which was critically panned at times and Joe Q claimed "underperformed", which means only sold in the Top 15 instead of the Top 10. Talk about "swinging for the fences".

 

[gildea]

Pray tell...how, exactly, were the flaws not of Bendis' making? He wrote the story. He wrote the preceding stories, House of M and Disassembled, which created the complications leading up to this story. If he doesn't shoulder the blame for these flaws, then who does??

Heck, he already gave a halfway reasonable explanation for Xorn during House of M...Wanda went crazy, and thus continuity took it up the bum. The end. It wasn't the greatest explanation, but at least it made comic book sense and cleanly wrapped up one of the most embarrassing and confusing plot fckups that Marvel has had since spider-clones.

Now, he for some reason decides to drag up the Xorneto mess again after already having resolved it, and screw up his own explanation in lieu of one that brings up right back to Xorn impersonating Magneto impersonating...Xorn. Okay. Unless Quesada was forcing him with threats of Roboto Tentacle Rapist 500 to write this sht out, I don't see how it isn't his fault. How many freebies is this guy going to get, anyway? Hawkeye. Wanda. Spidey. HoM. Ronin. Alpha Flight. The list goes on and on. When are people going to stop making excuses for him?

The problem with this arc, as I view the criticism it has recieved (predominantly) is with bendis's use of xorn. As I stated when I read it I was blissfully unaware that xorn (in continuity) was actually someone who impersonated magneto was killed then had his twin brother do some stuff. Xorn to me (and still is, continuity can hang) is a figment of magneto that eventually almost gathered a personality of his own due to mags increasing insanity in "planet x". Magneto was duly killed in planet x and I was under the impression that (as you say) he was resurrected by wanda prior to HoM. HoM resulted in mags losing his power and what i thought was the xorn aspect of his personality (from planet X) guiding the energy that fuelled the collective.
I kind of liked this idea, which is what I thought was being written (not particularly well but not the worst comic ever as some reactionary people have called it here).

I didn't know that xorn was a massive contrieved mess that JoeQ attempted to explain and the reason I wrote that bendis wasn't that responsible because he didn't write the stories (the ones with the two xorns and retaconning xorn into have posed as magneto in planet x) that made xorn into this silly mess.

Bendis was daft enough to try to incorporate a broken character in a way that all but ignored the real complications of it but thats all. Should he have known better? Probably. His crime is thinking people understood the impenetrable mess that is xorn as a character.

 

[Darthphere]

Loeb's a smart guy, and while his stories vary from good, bad, and everything in-between, he's not "afraid" of the basics as a lot of other writers are in the medium (who feel the need to almost apologize for superheroism), and I look foward to seeing what he does in ULTIMATES 3. Which, at this rate, should start around Christmas, 2007.

Yeah, im probably one of the few who enjoyed his Superman/Batman. I think hes right though, look at what bendis did on Avengers, sales almost doubled on his first issue from the previous issue (albeit written by Chuck Austen). One cant deny the power creators have over comic book fans. Jeph Loeb is a great writer and if I didnt have a vendetta against the Ultimate line Id be inclined to pick up Ultimates 3.

 

[Darthphere]

To be fair, Brubaker's DEADLY GENESIS title wasn't all that hot. I hear DAREDEVIL and CAPTAIN AMERICA are his better works, although with DD, all you have to do is write, "Matt's life gets worse, repeat", whereas reviving Cap I saw as a bigger challenge. But, yeah, his "big franchise" book was DEADLY GENESIS, which was critically panned at times and Joe Q claimed "underperformed", which means only sold in the Top 15 instead of the Top 10. Talk about "swinging for the fences".

Deadly Genesis underperformed from a critical standpoint for me. I dont know where this lets make Professor X a huge ******* idea came from but that person needs to be shot. Daredevil is great and youre right about writing Matt that way but I think its slowly moving up towards the redemption of Matt Murdock and maybe some lighter stories. What he did with Captain America is nothing short of phenomenal. His resurrection of Bucky is hands down the best resurrection of all time, and the man knows Cap and his history. Ive never been this excited over Captain America.

 

[gildea]

I enjoyed DG actually, course I had been avoiding 616 X since astonishing went on hiatus so that may have been a factor. That and I kind of viewed astonishing as existing in its own wee world also so it felt even longer since some 616 X.

 

[Tropico]

The problem with this arc, as I view the criticism it has recieved (predominantly) is with bendis's use of xorn. As I stated when I read it I was blissfully unaware that xorn (in continuity) was actually someone who impersonated magneto was killed then had his twin brother do some stuff. Xorn to me (and still is, continuity can hang) is a figment of magneto that eventually almost gathered a personality of his own due to mags increasing insanity in "planet x". Magneto was duly killed in planet x and I was under the impression that (as you say) he was resurrected by wanda prior to HoM. HoM resulted in mags losing his power and what i thought was the xorn aspect of his personality (from planet X) guiding the energy that fuelled the collective.
I kind of liked this idea, which is what I thought was being written (not particularly well but not the worst comic ever as some reactionary people have called it here).

I saw it this way, too; except the part where Xorn was a split personality, I always saw him as a doped up Mags. I would have had no problem if it was Mags all along and he got brought back as a more benevolent kind of guy (which he was in the Genoshan Excalibur) because his daughter couldn't cope with his death and altered reality to bring him back as someone she liked. Heck, I could have gone with the whole impostor/Xorn thing and it got fixed with House of M. But, nooooooooooooo, they had to try to fix a mess that from what I've read here, the vast majority of us had thought was already solved.

If Marvel wanted to make the mutant enegies go away and re-power Mags, why didn't they just do that? I would've bought it without adding the Xorn crap. I'm probably the only one that didn't want the energies given back to all the mutants, to me the X-Men do better as a struggling minority than the current fad (in the MU). All those energies could have just burnt out the Collective host and without a host to coalesce it the energies could have dissipated or they could have been used to revive Genosha (not the mutants, though). The Sun was a cop-out, IMO; just one of many.

 

[Ben Urich]

**** what Quesada and Bendis say.
Xorn is Magneto.
The END.

 

[Anubis]

I don't even care anymore.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I just read Astonishing X-Men #15, In the ultimate universe, Colossus was taken down by Falcon threatening to gouge out his eyes. I read that and said "Whew, that crap would never happen in the 616 universe. AARRGH, who forgets Shaw's ability and gets taken out by an ear clap!!!?? What horrible writing of Petey, he'd never just punch somebody in the face, regardless of what they said. God.

 

[The Ether]

I would, mostly cause I don't know anything about the guy

 

[Not Jake]

pfft Colossus is written well in Astonishing.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

pfft Colossus is written well in Astonishing.

You're joking. Part of being the passive gentle giant is that you DON'T haul off and punch people before attacked first. All Shaw did really was tease him. and the "I'm having fun" part? Explain that...

 

[BrianWilly]

Well, he's made of rage.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah ok It was just really frustrating seeing Petey taken down by such a nancyboy move in this universe too. And the fact that he walked into it in such an out of character way.

 

[gildea]

It was hardly out of character. Peter has been given to bouts of rage MANY a time, the first proteus encounter and him killing riptide spring to mind.

It is very in character.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

What kind of "rage" causes you to punch a man pretty damn hard, but not hard enough to kill him with the first hit? And the fact that he said "I'm having fun." Who says that when they're angry? This was hardly rage, just Petey being violent and thin skin....very out of character.

 

[Darthphere]

He could be affected by a telepath, but most of all think of it this way, some guy comes into your house to hurt the people you love, youre going to do some out of character stuff.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

No matter how pissed I was at the intruder, if I knew the guy absorbed kinetic energy; I doubt I'd PUNCH HIM IN THE FACE. That was just dumb.

 

[Tropico]

It was hardly out of character. Peter has been given to bouts of rage MANY a time, the first proteus encounter and him killing riptide spring to mind.

It is very in character.

Wow! About 3 times in his whole career and it's in character? I don't think his Proteus attack was like his Ultimate one, he wasn't savage about it. Killing Riptide was very out of character for him and they even mentioned it in the comics, it was his belief that Kitty had been gravely injured. This one? Well, it seemed out of character to me because he HAS fought Sebastian Shaw before and he's not the kind to ruthlessly batter someone like that. In Astonishing X-Men after the whole "I'm made of rage" thing I guess it's in character for Whedon. At least that's what I tell myself, that and Cassandra Nova seemed to be messing with everyone's head.

 

[gildea]

Wow! About 3 times in his whole career and it's in character? I don't think his Proteus attack was like his Ultimate one, he wasn't savage about it.

I was fairly clear I was only citing some examples not an exhuastive list, as well you know sir. He wasn't savage about it in the ultimates either btw.

Killing Riptide was very out of character for him and they even mentioned it in the comics, it was his belief that Kitty had been gravely injured.

I perhaps should have made myself clearer. When people say out of character in a comics forum they tend to be saying "he would NEVER do this...". It is in that line I responded. You're correct its out of character the argument I was truly making is though out of character it is within his capability (the man was an acolyte remember) to be vicious. People rarely behave exactly to type in every situation and there is precedent for pete losing his cool (or are you suggesting we ignore this?)

This one? Well, it seemed out of character to me because he HAS fought Sebastian Shaw before and he's not the kind to ruthlessly batter someone like that. In Astonishing X-Men after the whole "I'm made of rage" thing I guess it's in character for Whedon. At least that's what I tell myself, that and Cassandra Nova seemed to be messing with everyone's head.

Whilst in context of ruthlessly hammering someone I think pete is quite capable, he's been through a lot (in the past and recently) what with being experimented on and held captive for years (would you expect him to return completely the same??) plus cyclops had just been attacked then the enemy suddenly appears, damn right pete's going to smack him about. A gentle giant is always a giant but not always gentle.

However as you say this is sebastian shaw, whilst I have no problem with pete kicking the tar out of someone he's encountered shaw enough to know it would do no good whatsoever and he should have known better in that respect I agree it was silly.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

However as you say this is sebastian shaw, whilst I have no problem with pete kicking the tar out of someone he's encountered shaw enough to know it would do no good whatsoever and he should have known better in that respect I agree it was silly.

Ok, cool